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Jacob Mei
Gallente
Posted - 2009.07.15 06:05:00 - [151]
 

Quote:
Also, LPs will only be given for killing your militia direct opponents, not allies to them (as a Federation pilot, you will not receive LPs for destroying an Amarr pilot ship for example). Some explanations of each variable are given below:


This seems somewhat exploitable to me. If I were a Caldari milita leader id either have my allies in the amarr milita or my members alts act as canon fodder against the federation milita to soften them up and make taking the system easier.

Gartel Reiman
The Athiest Syndicate
Advocated Destruction
Posted - 2009.07.15 08:47:00 - [152]
 

Originally by: Jacob Mei
Quote:
Also, LPs will only be given for killing your militia direct opponents, not allies to them (as a Federation pilot, you will not receive LPs for destroying an Amarr pilot ship for example). Some explanations of each variable are given below:


This seems somewhat exploitable to me. If I were a Caldari milita leader id either have my allies in the amarr milita or my members alts act as canon fodder against the federation milita to soften them up and make taking the system easier.

That's been covered in several posts above - basically, the values are such that you end up getting a pitiful amount of ISK/hour even if you're constantly popping ships undisturbed and just waiting for the session change timers with docking/undocking empty cannon fodder.

(For example, blowing up insured cruisers to get a faction MAPC would take about an hour and a half like this, for a likely profit of under ten million ISK. Read up for details.)

Shate Def
The Scope
Posted - 2009.07.15 09:01:00 - [153]
 

please introduce a greater variety on the faction lp implants. gallente drone users are begging for drone implants, ecm for zeh caldari seems fine. i have no clue what the other factions could offer tho.

McDaddy Pimp
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.07.15 09:36:00 - [154]
 

Originally by: Shate Def
please introduce a greater variety on the faction lp implants. gallente drone users are begging for drone implants, ecm for zeh caldari seems fine. i have no clue what the other factions could offer tho.


agility/sig radius for minnie, cap implants for amarr :D

Kenpachi Viktor
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2009.07.15 09:59:00 - [155]
 

some thoughts:

Every action that gives VPs needs to give LPs as well.

The ranks gained should affect the prices in the LP store - the higher the rank, the cheaper the items.

Joshua Foiritain
Gallente
Coreli Corporation
Naraka.
Posted - 2009.07.15 10:52:00 - [156]
 

Still no pirate factions Neutral Lame.

Niko Mat
Posted - 2009.07.15 10:55:00 - [157]
 

Originally by: Joshua Foiritain
Still no pirate factions Neutral

In faction warfare? What did you expect?

Louis deGuerre
Gallente
Malevolence.
Posted - 2009.07.15 11:14:00 - [158]
 

Like FW drones...could indeed be nice for wormholes...

Dav Varan
Posted - 2009.07.15 12:41:00 - [159]
 

Originally by: Gartel Reiman
Originally by: Dav Varan
Faction drones need more damage over T2 not less otherwise no one is gonna use them.

Just price them up so they turn out 3x expensive as T2

I don't agree with this - simply churning out more meta-levels of items that are the same as the lower ones but just unconditionally better isn't really that good a mechanic. It basically obsoletes the lower quality items completely so long as you can afford their replacements, and means that richer players get more effective ships without really needing to do anything or think about anything.



Richer players getting better ships is part of this game. Cash flow is PvP too
You dont get isk for free, so your concept that expensive mods require no effort or thought to obtain are clearly incorrect.

6 million isk ( 3M isk + 3000lp @ 1000Isk per LP ) for 5 light
Price for a light faction drone = 1.2M per drones , this is considerable more expensive than T2

In order to justify a price tag of 1.2M a faction drone needs to be clearly better than T2 otherwise they will not be used by anyone.
At the moment the only ships that would clearly benifit from lights that are twice as tough are gonna be ships with small drone bays ( no room for replacements ) that depend on drones for damage.

Ships that might use FLD = ishkur , incursus.

Originally by: Gartel Reiman

More money invested = more performance isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it's not particularly interesting. Introducing alternatives that are better in some areas and worse in others is great for letting people find interesting tactics and combinations, without obsoleting either item.



In order for an item to have a use its benifits must compensate for its cost.
Atm a lot of the new faction items do not offer a good performance/price ratio.


Originally by: Gartel Reiman

People who understand the benefits of tracking will quite possibly be happy with the faction drones.

I know for my part, in typical Amarr laserboats my lasers will be doing the majority of the damage against things that I can track, so a 5-10% DPS boost on my drones is possibly a 1-3% boost in overall DPS - pretty meh for probably quite expensive drones. On the other hand, the things I can't hit well with my lasers are probably small and fast and don't have much EHP, so sacrificing a little raw damage from the drones in order to be able to hit these small things better is great in my book.



15% less damage for 10% better tracking , if you use FLD's you will allways get less drones damage not more.
Drones pursueing a fast target on a 10Km+ ( out of scram range ) orbit do not require great tracking,
both target and drone are turning in flight at the same rate ( more or less ) therefore the tracking of the target from the drone is very low.
This is why heavy drones shooting at rat frigs do far better once they get on the targets 6.

People who REALLY understand tracking will use T2 for the extra damage.

This post is getting long , I will clear up your extender/plate misconceptions in a following post.


Kamikazi ONE
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2009.07.15 12:53:00 - [160]
 

I thought CCP said they were going to lower the costs of ALL faction ships in LP stores?

Or at the very least make LP prices drop as your standings increase with a corporation.

Dav Varan
Posted - 2009.07.15 13:19:00 - [161]
 

Originally by: Gartel Reiman

Originally by: Dav Varan
Where is the logic in the lower penalties for Faction Extenders/Plates... basically having reduced fitting / penalties only really make them more attractive on vesels smaller than the class for which they are intended.

Are you trying to tell me that you only ever run out of CPU/powergrid on potential fits when you're using oversized buffer tanking modules??

I was trying to tell you anything about my fits, but being as you "??"

PG and CPU sometimes are tight on Plate fits I use.
PG is sometimes an issue with Extender fits , CPU is never a major issue on Extender fits I use.

Originally by: Gartel Reiman

Think about things a bit more and the new flexibility is great. I find it ironic that someone else is complaining that the new LSEs will be overpowered (e.g. on a Scimi/Vaga) while you're complaining that they're underpowered... Smile



Well thank you for agreeing with me on something , kinda. I did say in my op that the Extenders were really only of use to ships that used oversized mods.
A vaga / scimi may benifit from the reduced sig, though for 14M per unit I dont think it'll be overpowered. LSE on a cruiser hull is oversizeing.

Now use the Extender on a Drake/NH these ships have big sigs to start with and generally arnt that fast either, a sig of 320 down from 325 is really not gonna make any difference to these ships which are designed to fit LSE's

Hence my original post.
Ships that are designed to fit LSE's get little benifit from faction extenders.
Ships that are penalized by sig radius for fitting LSE's get good benifit for fitting faction extenders.

This leaves Passive Shield Tank ships with few Faction Pimping Options and please dont respond OMFG PST's are Overpowered anyways.
PST's are no more overpowered than nano's or resisted plates.

PST's require Faction Extenders with a larger buffer than T2 for pimping options , currently there is no Faction Extender that provides that option.
We have 2 ( RF @ Thukker ) with lower sig and CN with lower fittings.


Originally by: Gartel Reiman

Lots of fits are short of CPU, and any one of them would welcome the lower CPU requirements of the faction extenders - this could potentially free up enough CPU for another damage mod, or upgrading a T1 hardener/point to T2, etc. And it doesn't need to be oversized extenders either. Wink From personal experience, I know that Megas and Geddons tend to be really tight on CPU in their typical fits, so these faction plates could quite possibly help free something up.



Only the Amarr Plate has a small CPU benifit ( 4 or 5 cpu )
Spending 15M ( purchase cost of plate ) may enable you to fit a T2 webber instead of Meta 4 webber saving you 5M.
Smart move.


Originally by: Gartel Reiman

As for the other class of modules, having more mass/signature is always bad, so reducing the amount added will affect all ships that fit such a module. Because of absolute effects, the relative bonus is greater on smaller ships, but that's an effect of the penalty being greater on smaller ships to start with. Reduced sig bloom/mass increase is going to be useful on all ships that fit the module, to varying degrees depending on how they are flown.



Once again thank you for agreeing with my op.
Faction Plates will benifit ships that are penalised for overfitting them far more than they benifit ships that are designed to fit them. Where is the logic!
Faction Extenders will benifit ships that are penalised for overfitting them far more than they benifit ships that are designed to fit them. Where is the logic!


Originally by: Gartel Reiman

Originally by: Dav Varan
I would like to see Faction Extenders and Plates get a 20% increase over T2 in there buffer size. Then they might actually be worth something.

Most other Faction mods seems to be 20% better than there T2 counterparts , these items are 3 to 5% better at best.

Again, as with the above comment about the drones, it's not all about pulling up the biggest EFT numbers and obsoleting T2 for those who can afford it. I applaud CCP for taking this direction with the new modules, making the faction modules clearly better than T2, all being equal, but not undeniably overpowering them.



I have described your misconceptions about drones and tracking in a previous post.

Cost is what will keep T2 viable , CN LSE for example is around 14M purchase cost minimum.
It is not T2 that is obsolete atm , it is CN and to a lesser extent RF LSE's that will hardle ever be used.

If you need more proof check the contracts for thukker LSE's , there wont be any, because no-one is interested in using them at the lp they cost.
I cant remember ever killing anyone with a thukker LSE fitted.

I dont applaud ccp, a lot of these mods are redundant before they are even in game.

fuze
Gallente
Quam Singulari
Posted - 2009.07.15 13:22:00 - [162]
 

Originally by: Gangleri
Please make the one and only change FW really needs.

/qft

Current changes seems to be an halfhearted attempt to fix FW and introduce new ways to exploit and incentives for RMT cartels.

Lubomir Penev
Dark Nexxus
S I L E N T.
Posted - 2009.07.15 14:24:00 - [163]
 

Originally by: Sazuka Kirr
So the Republic Fleet Large Shield Extender is exactly the same as the Thukker Large Shield Extender in every way, other than the signature radius. 20m on the Thukker variant, while 19m on the RF variant. Therefore, the RF variant is superior to the Thukker variant.

That said, the Thukker variant costs 27k LP and 18mil ISK, compared to 10k LP, 4mil ISK and a few tags for the RF variant. That's a huge price hike for an inferior item, and the same can be said when comparing Fed Navy Armor Plates to the Syndicate ones.

Then, to go onto the MAPC, both the Thukker and the Navy MAPCs give the same bonuses, but the Thukker variant uses 4 less CPU. That said, the Thukker variant costs an extra 14,700 LP and an extra 8.3mil ISK.

Seems a bit off to me ...


Faction warfare lps will be worth a lot more per lp than your farmed semi-afk in highsec lp. Maybe as much as 10k ISK per lp, which will make the items a real luxury.

Lubomir Penev
Dark Nexxus
S I L E N T.
Posted - 2009.07.15 14:33:00 - [164]
 

Originally by: Nikuno
Just done the numbers on the new Faction ship offers. Feel free to correct me, and I have erred on the side of generosity. You would have to add the build cost of the ship to the figures below as the most popular route illustrated is for the bpc, but this amounts to 75-80 million isk extra.

Currently a Faction BS might sell for 500million isk. The most popular route for getting these ships seems to be the cost of 500,000LP plus 200million isk.

This means the 500,000LP are traded for 300million isk, or 600isk/LP.This excludes the cost of building the ship which reduces the isk/LP, but as I said I'm erring on the generous side.

Now the new FW offer is 250,000LP and 20m isk. At 600isk/LP that equates to 150million isk cost for the LP at today's rates plus the 20million actual isk. That is a total value for a navy BS of 170million isk to retain todays market exchange rate for LP.

When you consider that 3-4 months ago you could get most navy BS for 300-350 million, that brings the cost of a navy bs down to 102-119million if the market will bear that rate.

The figures for the other ship classes are just as spurious. The offers seem overly generous unless the idea is to ensure we all fly faction ships, and to remove most of the attraction of working for non faction warfare ships.


ITT lots of people not understanding that it's way harder to accumulate FW lps and that thus they are way more valuable than regular lps...

Nyphur
Pillowsoft
Posted - 2009.07.15 15:37:00 - [165]
 

Edited by: Nyphur on 15/07/2009 15:43:14

I was a bit hesitant with the idea of rewards that are essentially convertable into isk but after seeing this blog, it makes perfect sense. I don't even think it will devalue the faction ships as the rate at which LP can be generated in FW is still pretty limited. It'll be faster to run normal level 4s and 5s for navy ships. My initial assessment may have been right, that all we needed was some unique rewards to set as goals. A few comments:

  • The low grade navy implant set gives "+7 racial sensor strength" while the high grade gives "+75%". This seems designed to make the low grade set a great option for frigates, where their poor sensor strength makes the +7 just slightly worse than the +75%. On larger ships, the high grade set wins out. It's not a problem, I just thought this was a very well considered and balanced approach to promoting the use of small ships.


  • I love the racial disparity between items being offered. It encourages players to field ships of their own FW faction's race (though historically players have done this of their own accord) and as they are useful outside of FW and to the other militias, it adds a big potential secondary market.


  • I'd like to see info on how much LP captures will give, if any, and how FW missions will affect the capture rate of a system. The LP rewards from PvP are understandably low but we need to know how much LP we can expect to make through system captures. The only good LP reference we have so far is missions and since they don't contribute to capturing a system, running them is currently a quite hollow experience.


  • There's still no benefit to system ownership.


  • The downtime plex spawning mechanic needs to be revised. It allowed the caldari to completely overrun the gallente without putting themselves at major risk of PvP or failure to capture a system. It was almost impossible for us as gallente to decontest those systems because not enough plexes would spawn throughout the day to do so. I don't know the extent to which this is true but it matches my experiences exactly. After considerable effort on our parts, we couldn't find complexes to decontest systems in time and the caldari avoided PvP at all costs.


  • Militia pilots need to be warned about bunker sieges and systems they're close to winning/losing. It doesn't matter how long the siege itself is if most of the militia don't know about it well enough in advance or aren't online when it's going down. It's the same rationale behind reinforced timers. Similarly, we could do with an intel screen showing captures and missions in progress in our faction's space.


  • Can the racial EW from NPCS used in FW plexes PLEASE be looked into? Caldari plexes are hellish to run with only a few people because of the absolutely overwhelming ECM. And since NPCs use jam tables rather than sensor strength calculations, you can't fit ECCM to prepare for it and even the new implants won't help. The other races don't get nearly as bad EW effects from their NPCS. After a dozen plexes or so, most gallente pilots get sick of being permanantly jammed (especially in case someone shows up to attack) and give up on plexing. It's part of the reason the gallente militia have always been so focused on PvP, because their plexing is a nightmare solo or in small groups. Missions that are meant to be solo'd also have horrible EW. If PvP is supposed to occur in plexes and missions, the ECM shouldn't be strong enough to make any fights almost entirely one-sided.


  • The capturing while cloaked bug, not sure if it's still in but it needs sorted out.



  • It's a start and definitely makes me want to come back to FW some time. Hopefully it won't be like the last time I went back to FW and found all the fun and pvp had been forcibly drained out of it. Looking forward to the upcoming changes.

    X Gallentius
    Quantum Cats Syndicate
    Posted - 2009.07.15 17:15:00 - [166]
     

    Originally by: Nyphur

  • Militia pilots need to be warned about bunker sieges and systems they're close to winning/losing. It doesn't matter how long the siege itself is if most of the militia don't know about it well enough in advance or aren't online when it's going down. It's the same rationale behind reinforced timers. Similarly, we could do with an intel screen showing captures and missions in progress in our faction's space.




  • Great stuff as always. One comment.

    By the time the bunker is vulnerable the system is lost. Attacking force simply runs away until defending force gets bored to tears and logs off. Then attacking force returns at their leisure to kill bunker. If we're going this route, there needs to be some way to actively defend a bunker that significantly de-contests the system if successfully defended.




    Ulstan
    Posted - 2009.07.15 19:30:00 - [167]
     

    Nyphur makes some good points.

    Especially:

    -lack of notification about control bunker fights. Several of the 'info' screens presented on the milita tab in station are fairly useless (oh hey look, lots of ships killed in Tama). Replace them with a listing showing which systems have vulnerable or almost vulnerable bunkers

    -plexxing has many issues - spawning after downtime, the cloaking mess, etc. ECM NPC's are by far the most annoying EWAR NPC's can have. Caldari Fw'ers can probably sympathize with gallente plex runners from having run missions against ECM using NPC's. NPC's should definitely obey the same rules players do for EWAR.

    -The biggest one: system control still has zero meaning. . This seems like the elephant in the room - the entire FW has no direction because system occupancy doesn't really do anything. The additional rewards to pew-pewing are nice, but the pew-pewing having a focus and impact would, I think, create a lot more life in FW.

    Eftim S'Jet
    Posted - 2009.07.15 23:05:00 - [168]
     

    So instead of fixing the major issues of FW (plexing, LAG, militia being an uncontrollable alliance full of inactive pilots and spies, etc) CCP waves some cheap candy at us. Cheaper faction ships? Wow, I'm much happier now...

    Thank you very much sir Fallout. It's nice to know you guys finally decided to look upon the system and try to fix it, but it horrifies me to see these results. It's been over a year since FW started!

    Rommel Rottweil
    Posted - 2009.07.16 12:43:00 - [169]
     

    Edited by: Rommel Rottweil on 16/07/2009 12:44:13
    Hi, Im pretty new to this but I have a few comments that I hope you guys can consider.

    What I really miss here is a small LP reward for capturing Plexes.
    This would maybe encourage/reward people to go for the plexes and wait for the long boring timer to run out.

    In addition to this maybe it would be possible to do somthing that would give real benefits to taking space in FW. Maybe have Faction NPC ships guarding all gates & Stations in systems that are under control of one faction.

    One thing I found strange is that I can dock in any station, even though Im in a war with the Faction. I must say that I find that ridicules.
    I think that Amarr<>Minmatar and Caldari<>Gallente should be barred from docking in stations that are controlled by enemy.

    Maybe add a element that when a system is taken over by one faction then the station can be attacked and when taken over By the opposing faction.
    24th Imperial Crusade Outposts<>Tribal Liberation Force outposts.
    State Protectorate<>Federal Defence Union.
    Other Outposts could remain Neutral and docakable.
    This would probably call for some changes regarding the ownership of Outposts today, ai. increesing (or swapping) some of the warring faction outposts that are in high sec for some of the 'neutral' outposts that are in lowsec.

    Regarding the new FW items I think that is very nice but I think all new Faction EWAR modules should come out at the same time.
    What about ECM, RSD, TD ?

    Sciencegeek deathdealer
    Posted - 2009.07.16 14:07:00 - [170]
     

    RECCOMENDATION: FW SHIPS!!!!
    Other then that sweet awsomeness!

    Terianna Eri
    Red Federation
    RvB - RED Federation
    Posted - 2009.07.17 00:12:00 - [171]
     

    Definitely need a way to encourage plexing and/or provide rank increases for PVPing otherwise you end up with PVE players having a higher LP value than PVP players, and IMO finding the right way to reward plexing (and corresponding system captures) is the biggest way to fix FW.

    very \o/ for everything in the blog though Twisted Evil

    Tnam
    Muppet Ninja's
    Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
    Posted - 2009.07.17 06:36:00 - [172]
     

    Edited by: Tnam on 17/07/2009 07:00:37
    Edited by: Tnam on 17/07/2009 06:46:16

    Please would you sort out the syndicate plates while you are at it. They cost way way more (47k lp + 12M) and are a lot more risky to get and don't seem to be nearly as good as these faction ones that are being introduced, no suprise they are never used.

    Hurtado Soneka
    Caldari
    Vindicare Temple
    Posted - 2009.07.17 07:30:00 - [173]
     

    This is awesome :D

    Hurtado Soneka
    Caldari
    Vindicare Temple
    Posted - 2009.07.17 09:47:00 - [174]
     

    Originally by: Nyphur
    Edited by: Nyphur on 15/07/2009 15:43:14

  • The downtime plex spawning mechanic needs to be revised. It allowed the caldari to completely overrun the gallente without putting themselves at major risk of PvP or failure to capture a system. It was almost impossible for us as gallente to decontest those systems because not enough plexes would spawn throughout the day to do so. I don't know the extent to which this is true but it matches my experiences exactly. After considerable effort on our parts, we couldn't find complexes to decontest systems in time and the caldari avoided PvP at all costs.




  • This whole thing is just wrong lol Rolling Eyes

    Typhado3
    Minmatar
    Posted - 2009.07.17 23:57:00 - [175]
     

    I always thought factional warfare should include a system to supply the person with some sort of equipment to fight the war with. Rather than trying to upgrade the rewards to make it super profitable provide them with a cheaper way to do battle, they still have the possibility to upgrade to buy regular equipment or even buy up some faction equipment with their LP. Can't see it actually happening as it would cause to many problems but would be interesting.

    Chi Quan
    Bibkor Enterprises
    Posted - 2009.07.19 09:36:00 - [176]
     

    so drones are racial lp store items, how come missiles are caldari exclusive? at least minmatar should get missiles in their stores, pro'lly khanid as well.

    i feel gallente are left out again. remote tracking link. come on and fix the damn blaster tracking instead of this.
    this is seriously disappointing.

    Abrazzar
    Posted - 2009.07.19 13:11:00 - [177]
     

    While Empire implant sets are interesting, having four times the same thing is rather boring. I'd have preferred if every race had its own specialty set. For example: Amarr get capacitor and/or cap warfare, Caldari get ECM/ECCM, Gallente get drones and Minmatar a general purpose set.

    Sure, it's easier to balance if you have four times the same, it just doesn't give the same depth and color than you could add with this.Confused

    Ardetia
    Caldari
    Killer Koalas
    Posted - 2009.07.20 17:46:00 - [178]
     

    Originally by: Dal Thrax
    Whats to stop me from putting an alt in another militia and popping his insured lowest tier cruisers multiple times in a nice quite little system for fun and profit?


    nothing but if someone found out youd be a laughing stock
    and, it doesnt sound like youll be having much fun doing it
    have fun

    Hirana Yoshida
    Behavioral Affront
    Posted - 2009.07.20 19:05:00 - [179]
     

    Now that we are drowning in saliva from people busy testing and thinking up clever exploits/uses for the extreme sensor strengths the implants will allow, I have just one question:
    Why the hell are you adding implants to fix what is a non-issue (ECM is not that big a factor sub-bs) and in the process unbalancing combat probing?

    If you want to help the smaller ship classes then create a rig or module that gives a flat sensor bonus and not an implant set and gimp the stupidly overpowered EC drones (make them require a lot more materials to build, way to good cost/benefit currently).
    This would incidentally help everyone and not just FW pilots and the uber-rich (FW LP will be pricey)


    Nikuno
    Posted - 2009.07.21 11:20:00 - [180]
     

    Originally by: Lubomir Penev
    Originally by: Nikuno
    Just done the numbers on the new Faction ship offers. Feel free to correct me, and I have erred on the side of generosity. You would have to add the build cost of the ship to the figures below as the most popular route illustrated is for the bpc, but this amounts to 75-80 million isk extra.

    Currently a Faction BS might sell for 500million isk. The most popular route for getting these ships seems to be the cost of 500,000LP plus 200million isk.

    This means the 500,000LP are traded for 300million isk, or 600isk/LP.This excludes the cost of building the ship which reduces the isk/LP, but as I said I'm erring on the generous side.

    Now the new FW offer is 250,000LP and 20m isk. At 600isk/LP that equates to 150million isk cost for the LP at today's rates plus the 20million actual isk. That is a total value for a navy BS of 170million isk to retain todays market exchange rate for LP.

    When you consider that 3-4 months ago you could get most navy BS for 300-350 million, that brings the cost of a navy bs down to 102-119million if the market will bear that rate.

    The figures for the other ship classes are just as spurious. The offers seem overly generous unless the idea is to ensure we all fly faction ships, and to remove most of the attraction of working for non faction warfare ships.


    ITT lots of people not understanding that it's way harder to accumulate FW lps and that thus they are way more valuable than regular lps...



    You keep right on believing this, it's what allows me to make so much isk by trading in Eve. I've begun farming the missions already. All I can say is that it's ridiculously easy, risk is very simple to minimise, and the LP awarded per mission is higher than the equivalent quality agent in standard empire missions.




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