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Mana Sanqua
Posted - 2009.07.13 18:26:00 - [31]
 

Edited by: Mana Sanqua on 13/07/2009 18:55:36
This is a terrible letdown and a big mistake. Allow me to elaborate briefly:

- It penalises rank! Why get a high rank? It just rewards the opponents, with no benefit to yourself. It hence also penalises missions and plexing. Best get demoted quick guys.
- It makes missions even more worthless than that (as the lp's come from kills so definitely don't do missions)
- It completely ignores the number one problem of FW: plexing (something that was meant to be FW's flagship) is dull, poor rewards, and has no effect on the game.
- It encourages blobbing! all these rewards are to be found in a fleet, but no rewards for the small gang warfare that FW was meant to promote.

I'm all for lp's for kills, and the discount, but this is just a terrible result from CCP. Is this really the best ideas you could come up with despite hundreds of threads in the Warfare and Tactics forum stating some much better and well thought out ideas?

LOOK at
- plexing: both rewards, and the downtime problem.
- rewards for rank
- impact on game (if squids control all low-sec, then the Gallente shouldn't be able to dock up there.)

This sounds very negative, but in truth this is one of the worst attempts at fixing something CCP have done. It actually ignores all the main issues and makes them worse to boot!


Edit: Added - Balance NPC's.

Laechyd Eldgorn
Caldari
draketrain
Posted - 2009.07.13 18:31:00 - [32]
 

lp items seem pretty nice. I am looking forward to see better loots. Too bad it doesn't make hauling *****es drop any better loots.

iudex
Posted - 2009.07.13 18:33:00 - [33]
 

Is there a chance you implement some high end rewards, that require a high amount of LP but are really worth it ?
I'm gone through the list on SiSi and can't estimate the value of FW lp. Those power diagnostics looks nice, the implants might go for over 1000isk/lp (current lp price of highsec mission corps), also the reduced ship prices look nice. But I hoped for something really special, similar to that special ships in pirate lp stores, which are available only in those stores. Can you add some +6 implants maybe for an insane amount of Lp ... or a State Issue Raven for an even higher amount of LP (10-20mil LP maybe?) to have a longterm goal which we can work on for months ?
However, the current stuff is better than nothing, don't take this as a complaint, maybe i had too high expectations on what the "goodies" might have been.

Steve Thomas
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2009.07.13 18:34:00 - [34]
 

Edited by: Steve Thomas on 13/07/2009 18:36:25
Originally by: Dal Thrax
Whats to stop me from putting an alt in another militia and popping his insured lowest tier cruisers multiple times in a nice quite little system for fun and profit?
well one thing is that I would suspect that you would have to do it in the war zone to get the credit for the kill for the lp

As for a nice quiet space? last time I looked all of faction space was litered with cloaked "neut" spotters for both factions. (either in open space or docked)

besides if your poping 50-100 cruisers to get a Scyth for example, your an idiot.

Sazuka Kirr
Caldari
Trans-Solar Works
Posted - 2009.07.13 18:35:00 - [35]
 

Edited by: Sazuka Kirr on 13/07/2009 18:35:53
Bad maths.

Bad Messenger
draketrain
Posted - 2009.07.13 18:35:00 - [36]
 

Adding more hp to bunker?? why?? Remove whole bunker. it is useless.
defending bunker is too late to act.

It seems that CCP has not thought this well. how much you get lp for capturing plex?

I thought plexing needed some boost but this dev block does not say anything like that.

after these changes there is no point to even cap single plex.

Snake O'Donell
Gallente
Core Impulse
Posted - 2009.07.13 18:37:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Phantom Slave
Originally by: Snake O'Donell
Like the idea, but it needs some work. This is a massive stealth RR BS buff if i have ever seen one.

Cheaper faction BS = Everyone and their mom is going to be flying around in Megathron Navy Issues which already have an awesome tank.
Faction plates = the ability to fit more resists to said RR BS. Every FW pilot will be able to get their hands on 3 of them super cheap.
Smaller Cap booster charges = More time you can spend repping your target. Why don't we just nerf NOS and Neut even more and get it over with.
Faction Implants = Lets make ECM completely worthless against RR BS gangs guys!

Default tactic for FW pilots after this patch: 10 RR BS fully faction fitted with T2 rigs(since they will be cheap as well). Sit at gate for hours, and if something comes that can take the gang, lol carrier hotdrop.


T2 rigs will be cheap? That'd be cool. I haven't seen anything on t2 being cheaper than they already are, considering Medium and Small rigs won't fit on a BS and AFAIK nothing is changing with current rigs.

But your scenario would just beg for the rival militia to hotdrop their own carrier/dreads onto the field. Also, with the higher points for Faction BS's, a swarm of 15 t1 cruisers on a suicide mission could in theory walk away with more LP than the other side just by taking out a few enemy BS's.

So much new faction stuff. Faction drones, cap charges, armor plates, and more! Yay, can't wait to see them on contracts!

My point exactly. the only way to beat an RR BS gang is to outblob it now. No tactics, no strategy, just blob blob blob.

Rivqua
Caldari
Omega Wing
Snatch Victory
Posted - 2009.07.13 18:37:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Sazuka Kirr
So the Republic Fleet Large Shield Extender is exactly the same as the Thukker Large Shield Extender in every way, other than the signature radius. 20m on the Thukker variant, while 19m on the RF variant. Therefore, the RF variant is superior to the Thukker variant.

That said, the Thukker variant costs 27k LP and 18mil ISK, compared to 10k LP, 4mil ISK and a few tags for the RF variant. That's a huge price hike for an inferior item, and the same can be said when comparing Fed Navy Armor Plates to the Syndicate ones.

Then, to go onto the MAPC, both the Thukker and the Navy MAPCs give the same bonuses, but the Thukker variant uses 4 less CPU. That said, the Thukker variant costs an extra 14,700 LP and an extra 8.3mil ISK.

Seems a bit off to me ...


Do some number crunching of the income LP of a average FW militia pilot and a golem dude running Thukker L4s.

Kaahles
Deliverers of Pain
Posted - 2009.07.13 18:37:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Mana Sanqua
- It penalises rank! Why get a high rank? It just rewards the opponents, with no benefit to yourself. It hence also penalises missions and plexing. Best get demoted quick guys.

It’s penalized already since: higher rank comes from success. If you are successful you gain a higher rank and in return **** of players from the opposing factions which means they’ll want to kill you anyway even more than anyone else.

Originally by: Mana Sanqua
- It makes missions even more worthless than that (as the lp's come from kills so definitely don't do missions)

Missions, especially the L4 in high sec are giving out way to much almost completely risk-less reward anyway.

Originally by: Mana Sanqua
- It completely ignores the number one problem of FW: plexing (something that was meant to be FW's flagship) is dull, poor rewards, and has no effect on the game.

And I always thought it was meant to encourage more players to participate in pvp and give new players a start into that business. Guess I didn’t read understood the dev blogs about that then.

Oh btw… you should read that one again it says somewhere that this changes are only a start.

Originally by: Mana Sanqua
- It encourages blobbing! all these rewards are to be found in a fleet, but no rewards for the small gang warfare that FW was meant to promote.

Aaah right… LP rewards are evenly divided between gang members. Meaning: smaller gang results in more reward, so a 150 man blobb will bring you more reward than a gang of 10 if you take on 5-man-fleets right? Dude… seriously you should work on your logic.

Rivqua
Caldari
Omega Wing
Snatch Victory
Posted - 2009.07.13 18:39:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Mana Sanqua
This is a terrible letdown and a big mistake. Allow me to elaborate briefly:

- It penalises rank! Why get a high rank? It just rewards the opponents, with no benefit to yourself. It hence also penalises missions and plexing. Best get demoted quick guys.
- It makes missions even more worthless than that (as the lp's come from kills so definitely don't do missions)
- It completely ignores the number one problem of FW: plexing (something that was meant to be FW's flagship) is dull, poor rewards, and has no effect on the game.
- It encourages blobbing! all these rewards are to be found in a fleet, but no rewards for the small gang warfare that FW was meant to promote.

I'm all for lp's for kills, and the discount, but this is just a terrible result from CCP. Is this really the best ideas you could come up with despite hundreds of threads in the Warfare and Tactics forum stating some much better and well thought out ideas?

LOOK at
- plexing: both rewards, and the downtime problem.
- rewards for rank
- impact on game (if squids control all low-sec, then the Gallente shouldn't be able to dock up there.)

This sounds very negative, but in truth this is one of the worst attempts at fixing something CCP have done. It actually ignores all the main issues and makes them worse to boot!



Considering CCP clearly stated that this is NOT the FW fix you are looking for, isn't this whole post redundant. Save it up for when they post the blog on the FW fix, and then comment.

DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
Posted - 2009.07.13 18:39:00 - [41]
 

MORE POWER CREEP, HELLZ YEAH.

WTB Faction 800 Charges

Also, the better fix would've been to ban non-FW peeps from using faction ships in their respective territories. ie. treat it like contraband where the navy tries to gank you.

Rivqua
Caldari
Omega Wing
Snatch Victory
Posted - 2009.07.13 18:43:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Snake O'Donell
Originally by: Phantom Slave
Originally by: Snake O'Donell
Like the idea, but it needs some work. This is a massive stealth RR BS buff if i have ever seen one.

Cheaper faction BS = Everyone and their mom is going to be flying around in Megathron Navy Issues which already have an awesome tank.
Faction plates = the ability to fit more resists to said RR BS. Every FW pilot will be able to get their hands on 3 of them super cheap.
Smaller Cap booster charges = More time you can spend repping your target. Why don't we just nerf NOS and Neut even more and get it over with.
Faction Implants = Lets make ECM completely worthless against RR BS gangs guys!

Default tactic for FW pilots after this patch: 10 RR BS fully faction fitted with T2 rigs(since they will be cheap as well). Sit at gate for hours, and if something comes that can take the gang, lol carrier hotdrop.


T2 rigs will be cheap? That'd be cool. I haven't seen anything on t2 being cheaper than they already are, considering Medium and Small rigs won't fit on a BS and AFAIK nothing is changing with current rigs.

But your scenario would just beg for the rival militia to hotdrop their own carrier/dreads onto the field. Also, with the higher points for Faction BS's, a swarm of 15 t1 cruisers on a suicide mission could in theory walk away with more LP than the other side just by taking out a few enemy BS's.

So much new faction stuff. Faction drones, cap charges, armor plates, and more! Yay, can't wait to see them on contracts!

My point exactly. the only way to beat an RR BS gang is to outblob it now. No tactics, no strategy, just blob blob blob.


Since when is 10 RR bs a blob? And have you done the math on the value of FW LP vs L4/L5 LP? I don't think this will usher a new era of everyone flying faction in pvp indisrimnately. If anything, the second a FW gang posts 10 faction BS on a gate, the pirates will come out and play.

Evienia
Posted - 2009.07.13 18:46:00 - [43]
 

Those caldari navy power diacs surely look good on T2 purger rigged drakes that caldari will be flying after small/med/large rig update. Since at the moment on sisi they cost somewhere (if i remember correctly) 16-20mil to make. T1 purgers cost about (lol?) 1mil to make?

Dibsi Dei
Salamyhkaisten kilta
Posted - 2009.07.13 18:50:00 - [44]
 

Exploiting tip:

I did this example with the Osprey. I don't know if it's the cheapest rank 1 cruiser but I guess it's pretty close.

Faction micro auxiliary power controls: 1500lp, 1.5m + 1m in tags.

This piece of art is similar to 'Vigor' mapc which is 20m in Jita atm. It will probably start selling somewhere between 20-30m and later stabilize to 10-15m, yes it is that good.

By killing militia alt cruisers with your main you are going to need 15 cruiser kills to get 1500lp. Oh wait, if your alt has a good rank it's probably somewhere near 9 cruiser kills to 1500lp.

So 9 cruiser kills. Osprey costs about 2.35m, after insurance a mere 340k. 9*340k = 3m. Then you just need 1.5m liquid isk and 2 tags worth 1m.

So a total of 5.5m, for a +12 PG MAPC...

And I can't even bother to calculate if it's cheaper with frigates or destroyers.

Have fun (ccp)!
</exploit>

Mana Sanqua
Posted - 2009.07.13 18:52:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Kaahles

It’s penalized already since: higher rank comes from success. If you are successful you gain a higher rank and in return **** of players from the opposing factions which means they’ll want to kill you anyway even more than anyone else.

No, higher rank comes from PvE activities (plexing and missions) and has nothing to do with the PvP aspect. Hence, if you plex (not a sign of a great sign success in terms of FW PvP drive) then you just reward your opponent for the work you do. No gain to yourself.

Originally by: Kaahles

Missions, especially the L4 in high sec are giving out way to much almost completely risk-less reward anyway.

L4 missions is a seperate topic. I am focusing on the rewards of FW missions, which are low-sec only.

Originally by: Kaahles

And I always thought it was meant to encourage more players to participate in pvp and give new players a start into that business. Guess I didn’t read understood the dev blogs about that then.

The original implementation of FW was to encourage PvP using small gangs via plexes. Whilst the main result was blob fleets running down the pipes, this was never described as the goal.

Originally by: Kaahles

Oh btw… you should read that one again it says somewhere that this changes are only a start.


They've been saying this since FW was introduced. If it takes this long to implement bad mechanics, how long for good mechanics?

Originally by: Kaahles

Aaah right… LP rewards are evenly divided between gang members. Meaning: smaller gang results in more reward, so a 150 man blobb will bring you more reward than a gang of 10 if you take on 5-man-fleets right? Dude… seriously you should work on your logic.



However, survivability goes up with a bigger group. Better to take a group of 40, kill 4 gangs of 5 than to take a single gang of 20 and take on 2 gangs of 5 due to the better dps of the fleet, and survivablity of your own ship. If the reward had an additional decrease with number on the kill, then it becomes a penalty to blob.

Havohej
Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics
Posted - 2009.07.13 18:54:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Raimo
Will FW rank be attainable through kills as well?

Unless it is, you will have a situation where the "PVE" pilots give better rewards for kills than the often more dangerous "PVP" pilots who don't have much FW rank due to little or no plexing done...


Drawing more attention to this.

Please give us the ability to attain promotions through PvP kills.

Snake O'Donell
Gallente
Core Impulse
Posted - 2009.07.13 18:55:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Rivqua


Since when is 10 RR bs a blob? And have you done the math on the value of FW LP vs L4/L5 LP? I don't think this will usher a new era of everyone flying faction in pvp indisrimnately. If anything, the second a FW gang posts 10 faction BS on a gate, the pirates will come out and play.

Faction armor plates will be less than 10mil each. Easily affordable by anyone with the ability to fly a BS in PVP. I will say Faction BS will drop to around 200mil or so on contracts. Again easily affordable to anyone.

10BS is not a blob. The 30 man support fleet which is standard for that size gang in FW makes it a blob.

Daily scenario on the Minnie/Amarr front will look like this: Amarr bring out 40 man gang with 10 RR BS and carrier support on standby. Minnie gang can't counter as there is no way to beat a gang of RR BS because it is now impossible to jam them. Minnies dock up, and Amarr get bored and leave or pirates hotdrop them and kill them.

FW just turned into "who can bring the biggest blob"

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2009.07.13 18:57:00 - [48]
 

Edited by: Furb Killer on 13/07/2009 19:01:04
Originally by: Dibsi Dei
Exploiting tip:

I did this example with the Osprey. I don't know if it's the cheapest rank 1 cruiser but I guess it's pretty close.

Faction micro auxiliary power controls: 1500lp, 1.5m + 1m in tags.

This piece of art is similar to 'Vigor' mapc which is 20m in Jita atm. It will probably start selling somewhere between 20-30m and later stabilize to 10-15m, yes it is that good.

By killing militia alt cruisers with your main you are going to need 15 cruiser kills to get 1500lp. Oh wait, if your alt has a good rank it's probably somewhere near 9 cruiser kills to 1500lp.

So 9 cruiser kills. Osprey costs about 2.35m, after insurance a mere 340k. 9*340k = 3m. Then you just need 1.5m liquid isk and 2 tags worth 1m.

So a total of 5.5m, for a +12 PG MAPC...

And I can't even bother to calculate if it's cheaper with frigates or destroyers.

Have fun (ccp)!
</exploit>

So:
People can spend a few months getting their alt to a high rank. Then they can buy 10 cruisers somewhere, undock, get killed, dock, repeat. Only looking at session change timers this takes at least 15 minutes. It will never stabilize at more than 10M ISK, too many people can get them (especially since you show it is pretty trivial to get them).
So then your total cost is at 5.5M ISK + 20 minutes spend at least killing yourself with an alt. Now your total income is 4.5M ISK after someone buys it from contracts.


So let me get this straight, you are whining it is a problem if you spend 20 minutes with 2 accounts you might make 15M ISK in an hour? Which is pretty much best case scenario.


This only shows one thing, those rewards are pretty much a joke. Start with at least making them higher for t2/t3 ships, cannot be exploited, and it is reasonable you get more than 2 times more lp for a ship which costs at least 10 times more.



I dont have that high rank myself, but somewhere decent. And why would it be negative? Because it gives the enemy a little bit more LP when they kill me? Guess how much i care about that.


Would also be nice if the FW players would stop calling every small gang a blob while maintaining they only want good pvp.

If you are camping a gate with a 5 men gang, you will get kills on solo'ers coming through. A 40 men fleet will get those same kills (less probably due to it being announced in militia), but have to divide it over more people. No 5 men gang with active brain cells will jump into a 40 men fleet since they are supposed to have a scout, so the 40 men fleet wont get those kills.
The result, small gangs will never give less LP than fleets.


But what i want to know from CCP, arent those rewards terribly low?

Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.07.13 18:59:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: CCP Ytterbium
Originally by: Shadowsword
Those faction mods, drones, cap charges and stuff. Will they be tradable, or usable only by players in faction militias?


There are no limitations on such equipment. Everything will be tradable and usable by all pilots like other faction modules.





The day you implent no drop stuff, is the day I leave. No drops ruin economies and dumb down play.

Dibsi Dei
Salamyhkaisten kilta
Posted - 2009.07.13 19:03:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Snake O'Donell
I will say Faction BS will drop to around 200mil or so on contracts.

Do you have any idea how much you have to kill for the 250k lp. Even if you only killed rank 10 pilots you would have to kill 250 militia battleships solo. (Or 500 with a fleet or two etc.) I checked your eve-kill stats, you have killed 130 battleships on that character. And I'm pretty sure they are far from solo.

So no people will not just go around killing things for months or years and give it up for 200m. And not even 300m or 500m, they will find other items and get much more profit.

Mikal Drey
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2009.07.13 19:07:00 - [51]
 

hey hey

the new faction mods are nice, cheaper faction ships are nice, new lp system . . . WTF !

is there any particular reason why LP is given out for a ship kill now ? is this because FW agent missions epically failed ?

do you guys feel that this devalues militia agents as lp will be generated through the pvp side of fw and pve is almost nailed shut in its coffin.

why wasnt lp generated from agent missions and the new lp somehting new "KP" kill points maybe ?

oh and nice find on the osprey/exploit post :/


Shattered Crystal - 60 day GTC


Raimo
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2009.07.13 19:07:00 - [52]
 

Yes, the LP amounts for kills are rather prenerfed IMO. I expected that but to be honest it would be nice to see it scale a little higher... These amounts of LPs will matter little to the average player.

Hell, in one year of active FW with quite a bit of kills (around 1100 including pods) I would have gained only roughly 100.000 LPs... I.e. not even enough for a discount Navy Mega.

So no problem with plexing and LPs if its on this scale. :P

Though of course everything helps and I guess these will serve to bring new players in (these LP values do help you towards a steady stream of T1 fit Rifters like I guess is the intention here)

Steve Thomas
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2009.07.13 19:09:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Sazuka Kirr
Edited by: Sazuka Kirr on 13/07/2009 18:35:53
Bad maths.
I fixed it (oops!)

Dont get me wrong, I honestly hope there are idiots out there who will sit there and blow up 100s of ships to get the lp.

for one the instant vacume in supply that would creat will perk up demand acrost the bord and drive up prices

or to put it another way

Standard Scythe insures for 2,877,500

the insurance cost is 863,250 per

the CHEEPEST Scythe right now is 3,100,000(and your going to be running all over the place trying to get 100 of them in one place as it is) oh and there is less than 100 of them on the local market

so you pay 86,325,000 for the insurance total plus 22,250,000 to get the fleet issue scythe. . .


50-100 million minimum to do this.

oh and the current volume on thoes scythes is ~10 a day localy, so you can guess how quickly the price of "Cheep" t1 ships is going to spike up when people start running 50-100 of them to low sec to farm them.

oh and you need to haul thoes cruisers to low sec . . . . and to some Isolated location in low sec. . . and somehow not have all of thoes ship kills show up on the map when you start poping 50-100 ships at a time. . thus reveiling your nice litle bogus lp farming op to everyone who even glances at the map. . .


murder one
Gallente
Death of Virtue
MeatSausage EXPRESS
Posted - 2009.07.13 19:10:00 - [54]
 

Now if CCP could take their FW LP kill value system and apply that to killing pirates we might actually have something...

Instead of FW rank you could base a multiplier off of a person's sec status and then add in an additional factor that takes into account how many ships and what size/type of ships that person as been involved in killing (all this data is currently available). This would replace the FW 'rank' factor used in determining a person's value as a target. Presto, instant reward system for killing pirates.

The bounty system could also be tied into this where adding to a person's bounty somehow increases the factor by a particular amount, or the other way around, where the person's point factor increases their effective bounty.

Abriana Overlord
Evolution
IT Alliance
Posted - 2009.07.13 19:15:00 - [55]
 

Lets see how long it takes the chinese farmer consortiums to start farming these Laughing

Dibsi Dei
Salamyhkaisten kilta
Posted - 2009.07.13 19:18:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Furb Killer
People can spend a few months getting their alt to a high rank. Then they can buy 10 cruisers somewhere, undock, get killed, dock, repeat. Only looking at session change timers this takes at least 15 minutes. It will never stabilize at more than 10M ISK, too many people can get them (especially since you show it is pretty trivial to get them).
So then your total cost is at 5.5M ISK + 20 minutes spend at least killing yourself with an alt. Now your total income is 4.5M ISK after someone buys it from contracts.

Fine, you made me do it. Rank 1 pilots this time. Sad

Bantam after insurance costs 11500isk. For 1500lp you need 1500/25 = 60 rank 1 kills.

60 * 0.0115m + 1.5m + 1m = 3.2m.

3.2m for +12pg mapc. Don't you think that's a pretty low cost?

Evienia
Posted - 2009.07.13 19:20:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Abriana Overlord
Lets see how long it takes the chinese farmer consortiums to start farming these Laughing


2 months? Smile

small chimp
Posted - 2009.07.13 19:26:00 - [58]
 

when is this new stuff going to be available?

Yakia TovilToba
Halliburton Inc.
Posted - 2009.07.13 19:26:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: Dibsi Dei


Faction micro auxiliary power controls: 1500lp, 1.5m + 1m in tags.

This piece of art is similar to 'Vigor' mapc which is 20m in Jita atm. It will probably start selling somewhere between 20-30m and later stabilize to 10-15m, yes it is that good.



No, it won't stabilise at 10-15 mil. 10 mil means 1500lp = ~7.5 mil isk, 1 lp = 5000 isk. That's not realistic, even some rare pirate corp lp are worth around 3000 isk at best. Empire lp are around 1000isk/lp, FW won't be much more than 2000-3000isk/lp after a while. The price of that module won't be near 10mil, the rest of the example doesn't work. The rewards are too low to be exploited effectively. And even if it were profitable to a little extent: in the time you buy/built, transport and kill all that cruisers, you'd make more doing a mission or mining veldspar.

Steve Thomas
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2009.07.13 19:28:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Dibsi Dei
Exploiting tip:

I did this example with the Osprey. I don't know if it's the cheapest rank 1 cruiser but I guess it's pretty close.

Faction micro auxiliary power controls: 1500lp, 1.5m + 1m in tags.

This piece of art is similar to 'Vigor' mapc which is 20m in Jita atm. It will probably start selling somewhere between 20-30m and later stabilize to 10-15m, yes it is that good.

By killing militia alt cruisers with your main you are going to need 15 cruiser kills to get 1500lp. Oh wait, if your alt has a good rank it's probably somewhere near 9 cruiser kills to 1500lp.

So 9 cruiser kills. Osprey costs about 2.35m, after insurance a mere 340k. 9*340k = 3m. Then you just need 1.5m liquid isk and 2 tags worth 1m.

So a total of 5.5m, for a +12 PG MAPC...

And I can't even bother to calculate if it's cheaper with frigates or destroyers.

Have fun (ccp)!
</exploit>
Trust me they are more than capable of doing the math

now take a second look at what your looking at, and figure 2 things

1) the volume of the ships your talking about (the cheep ones) is largly non existant as is the supply currently is mostly people selling off the mining cruiser they outgrew when they switched from that to a mining barge or a combat cruiser. thoes things dont seem to get blown up unless your a complet dolt and drag it into a level 2 mission with no real skill to properly equip it. the same is true of the cheep frigs (does anyone actualy make probes for example? or are we still handing around thoes cargo frigates from the old newbi entro missions?

2) if this goes in the way they are talking about the price of thoes items will drop. (what you think your going to be able to sell the Faction MAPC for 10-15 million when the "production cost" is "only" 5.5 million? Dream on! when it does you can expect to see the market virutaly striped of "cheep" ships while producers slap unresearched bpos ito the system and then sell you the resulting ships at there markup. . . .

if you could get a 150% markup on top of cost in a player suplied market the cost for the orespray you quoted would be 5 million per .


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