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blankseplocked A Nightmare, A Kronos, and a Paladin walk into a bar...
 
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Victoria Akmea
Gallente
Taishite Kami
Posted - 2009.07.13 04:14:00 - [1]
 

And they get into a fight over who is the best mission runner.

I'm looking at these ships, trying to decide what I should upgrade to from my Hype. I've been hearing arguments for and against every ship, and so I turn to the forums to decide what ship would be the best for mission running.

Kronos - I hear is supposed to be the best tank of the three ships, though lacking the damage of the others.

Paladin - High damage and a decent tank, although common complaint of fitting it, as well as cap stability.

Nightmare - This came into my decision making late, and I hear that it has the same damage as a Paladin, and is shield tanked to boot. I've even heard people say to just buffer this and put everything else to damage, as well as one saying to use cap boosters and don't even bother with attempting stability.

Golem/Vargur - Typically, I'm not looking at either of these, though good suggestions may help. I've never seen nor heard anything about the Vargur, which may not mean anything but could be a testament to how much it sucks. The Golem doesn't have even the damage of a Kronos, so I didn't look at it, as well as I hear that the CNR is better anyway.

Anything Else - Is there some other ship that I missed for mission running, L4? HACs, Command Ships, Magical Industrials o' Pwnage?

Davinel Lulinvega
Posted - 2009.07.13 04:21:00 - [2]
 

Nightmare is the best for blitzing. Paladin and golem are tied for sansha/blood raider/other amarr space missions while salvaging. Golem is best overall. I don't know how you managed to setup a golem that had low dps, but I guarantee you did it terrible wrong. Amazingly, the top rated fit on battleclinic is actually the correct fit.
Kronos and vargur are lacking in either range or damage depending on how you fit them, making them less than ideal, but still better than most bs.
Nighthawks, ishtars, and t3s can all perform well, especially in missions with lots of smaller ships, but a marauder is still better overall.

EFT Warrior
Posted - 2009.07.13 04:29:00 - [3]
 

Vargur can compete with the other golems, but only against angels, and only because they come in close. The tracking bonus allows you to switch out to Hail ammo and pummel the battleships (only battleships) into scrap faster than the golem or vargur (~1100 DPS with faction mods with Hail ammo).

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
Posted - 2009.07.13 04:44:00 - [4]
 

paladin/nightmare are about the same, marauders takes a bit longer to train then caldari battleship, but the 40km tractors are just sexy.

golem is awesome with torps, 4ish slot tank, 2 tps, afterburner, 4 bcus, and 2 range rigs (personally I use 2 torp velocity, but eft says 1 velocity 1 flight time gives more range) afterburner can arguably be removed for a 5 slot tank or 3rd target painter.

varg is great vs angels.

kronos gets outdone by a domi, now if only there was some way to make blasters work on the thing in pve Sad

1542 dps with cx-2 and zgl1000 implants. (1268 with null) Twisted Evil
[Kronos, Blast it]
Large Armor Repairer II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Gallente Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Gallente Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Gallente Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer

Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Gallente Navy Stasis Webifier
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range

Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]

Hybrid Burst Aerator II
Capacitor Control Circuit I


Hammerhead II x5
Ogre II x3

Research Shizzle
Posted - 2009.07.13 05:24:00 - [5]
 

The Nightmare and Paladin are very similar, but the Nightmare's tracking bonuses will give it slightly more true dps. But, the difference is very slight and the lack of tractor bonuses on the Nightmare makes the Paladin a better choice if you plan on salvaging during the mission. If you use a dedicated salvager then Nightmare will probably finish *slightly* faster, but they're so similar it pretty much just boils down to A) Do you salvage during the mission? and B) Are your skills geared more towards armor tanking or shield tanking?

As for the Paladin's fitting and cap stability, a Faction LAR will fix your fitting problems. Not sure where you heard cap stability was a problem with the Paladin but that one is totally false. The Paladin is very easy to get cap stable. This is my current Paladin fit:

[Paladin, Missions Lvl4]
Ahremen's Modified Heat Sink
Vizan's Modified Heat Sink
Vizan's Modified Heat Sink
True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay
Corpum A-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Corpum A-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Centus X-Type Large Armor Repairer

Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Setele's Modified Tracking Computer, Tracking Speed
Cormack's Modified Tracking Computer, Tracking Speed

Tachyon Beam Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L
Small Tractor Beam I
Small Tractor Beam I
Salvager II

Ancillary Current Router I
Auxiliary Nano Pump II

Hammerhead II x5
Hobgoblin II x5

The Aux Current Router rig is only needed because I chose a Deadspace LAR that uses more powergrid than faction/T2. With a T2 or Faction rep you can replace that with a CCC rig. Replace the EANMs with rat specific hards when needed. Even with just T2 kit, this fit works well.



TimMc
Brutal Deliverance
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2009.07.13 06:14:00 - [6]
 

You just got added to alot of peoples suicide gank listing...

Qui Shon
Posted - 2009.07.13 07:04:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Qui Shon on 13/07/2009 07:06:18
Originally by: Davinel Lulinvega
Amazingly, the top rated fit on battleclinic is actually the correct fit.


"Correct", if you want to use a multi-bn fit on it, that is. You can achieve the same performance, with a little less convenience, for half the isk. Otherwise you nailed it, I'd say, except that Pally will beat the Golem for most EM weak missions that don't sport excessive TD, not equal it, because it can usually one-gun frigs, and "one-or-less" -volley cruisers and BC's, without painters.

In addition to target radius, Golly also suffers from the 10 second painter timer (you'd need four painters to get around it), delayed damage (and don't give me crap about this, you WILL waste missiles, and damage is NOT always the same), long ammo reload times, and the neccessary ammo switch at 40km presents another delaying problem.

Don't get me wrong, Golly is a great ship, I've got two of them just for this char, but it does get outperformed in most EM missions.

Research Shizzle
Posted - 2009.07.13 07:11:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: TimMc
You just got added to alot of peoples suicide gank listing...


No doubt. Which is why I *never* post with my main on the forums =)

Khornne
Caldari
Posted - 2009.07.13 09:02:00 - [9]
 

Golem wins in overall mission running. Still, after the 1000. thread about it.

EFT Warrior
Posted - 2009.07.13 09:19:00 - [10]
 

Maybe if we make a thousand and one threads it'll change for us.

FT Diomedes
Gallente
Factio Paucorum
Posted - 2009.07.13 12:54:00 - [11]
 

The Paladin is clearly the best of the lot - against Sanshas, Amarr, Blood Raiders and Drones.

The Kronos does an outstanding job against Caldari, Guristas, Mordus and Serpentis. It also does pretty well against everything else.

The T2 Torp Golem does an even better job against Serpentis and Angels.

The Vargur does very well against Angels (with ACs), and better than any other Minmatar BS against anything else (with artillery).

I haven't flown the Nightmare, but in my opinion it is not worth it if you have the Paladin. The 40km tractor beams on the Paladin make it generally superior.

The other mission running ships I often still use are the Dominix, Ishtar and the Nighthawk. There are certain missions where these ships just plain shine - and if you are not planning to loot/salvage, do the job better than a Marauder (because they kill off the cruisers so well).

FT Diomedes
Gallente
Factio Paucorum
Posted - 2009.07.13 12:59:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton

kronos gets outdone by a domi, now if only there was some way to make blasters work on the thing in pve Sad

1542 dps with cx-2 and zgl1000 implants. (1268 with null) Twisted Evil
[Kronos, Blast it]
Large Armor Repairer II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Gallente Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Gallente Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Gallente Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer

Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Gallente Navy Stasis Webifier
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range

Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]

Hybrid Burst Aerator II
Capacitor Control Circuit I


Hammerhead II x5
Ogre II x3



A blaster Kronos with no AB? What happened to Chainsaw Plankton? A well fit 425mm rail Kronos can get about 881 DPS, which is nothing to sneeze at considering the range it can inflict that hurt at.

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2009.07.13 13:04:00 - [13]
 

Its range with that dps isnt that much, allthough in general you want to shoot at targets which are within 40km anyway. Which is immediatly why imo a kronos is worth it over a dominix, the larger tractor range. Allthough i would really like more bandwidth.

Lithel
Taking a break from Eve Online
Posted - 2009.07.13 15:03:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Victoria Akmea
And they get into a fight over who is the best mission runner.



Does this not imply which one is best in a PvP situation?

Qui Shon
Posted - 2009.07.13 16:34:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Qui Shon on 13/07/2009 16:37:32
Originally by: FT Diomedes

A blaster Kronos with no AB? What happened to Chainsaw Plankton? A well fit 425mm rail Kronos can get about 881 DPS, which is nothing to sneeze at considering the range it can inflict that hurt at.


It's not too hard to get it to 1000 and above, at roughly 50km. With Wardens and 11 more days worth of skill training, my alt would have it at 994 EFT dps with Wardens, over 1k with any other sentry or Wasps, or natuturally with the 2/2/1 mix. More then enough tank for any Kin/Therm L4, and cheap to boot (AN LAR, GN Magstabs, rest T2)

Edit: That's 952 dps accounting for reload times, or 1003 with the Wasp/Vespa/Hornet line, more on-paper dps with Gal drones of course.

That said, for rats NOT vulnerable to Kin/Therm, Domi will most likely beat it, unless you account for looting/wreckball making.

Kismo
Posted - 2009.07.13 16:44:00 - [16]
 

Quote:
A Nightmare, A Kronos, and a Paladin walk into a bar...


... and they all said "ouch"? Thank you, thank you, I'll be here all week. Don't forget to try the quiche!

Viktor Fyretracker
Caldari
Emminent Terraforming
O.G.-Alliance
Posted - 2009.07.13 17:03:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Lithel
Originally by: Victoria Akmea
And they get into a fight over who is the best mission runner.



Does this not imply which one is best in a PvP situation?


naw because the Paladin would get scared and Bubble Warp.....

Merbusent
Posted - 2009.07.13 17:38:00 - [18]
 

I did a quick comparison on eft dps graph, and paladin at 40km's was top then Vargur and golem but there special bonuses are discounted like webbers or target painters each had three damage mods.

Vargur has one option barrage which pretty sucks
Paladin from the looks cannot really fit many damage mods like the vargur so is bias and has only em damage (lol)
Golem is still subject to speed/sig
Kronos, who cares

So a quick summery I dont bet they made each ship actually any better than 10% more damageing at best and main factors are the spinny bits like cargo bay etc.

And Vargur is best :p

Proto TC
Posted - 2009.07.13 19:50:00 - [19]
 

I do not fly Kronos, but what I heard is not positive.
Paladin is da' king of em/thermal based mobs (sansha, bloods, drones, serpentis?). Tachyon beams coupled with 3 faction HS have effective range of 100k where cruisers die in one wolley about 20% and up, as mobs get closer. Any mission that allows to control "warp-in" distance become an easy mode mission.
Nightmare is great for "blitzing" missions only, can fit more HS then Paladin. However, no loot and no salvage for the Mare.

My 2c.

Weight What
Gallente
Posted - 2009.07.13 20:09:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Proto TC
I do not fly Kronos, but what I heard is not positive.
Paladin is da' king of em/thermal based mobs (sansha, bloods, drones, serpentis?). Tachyon beams coupled with 3 faction HS have effective range of 100k where cruisers die in one wolley about 20% and up, as mobs get closer. Any mission that allows to control "warp-in" distance become an easy mode mission.



Mobs lol, WoW lol :)

Quote:
Nightmare is great for "blitzing" missions only, can fit more HS then Paladin. However, no loot and no salvage for the Mare.

My 2c.


Is the Mare your steed?

Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.07.13 22:15:00 - [21]
 

Why the hell would people use either t2 ammo (as one replier said) or cap boosters on a RATTING SHIP!

The idea is something that's sustainable (keeping several cap boosters isnt) and to make as much money as possible (burning through thousands of rounds of t2 ammo is NOT effecient, isk wise)


Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
Posted - 2009.07.13 23:20:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: FT Diomedes
Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton

kronos gets outdone by a domi, now if only there was some way to make blasters work on the thing in pve Sad

1542 dps with cx-2 and zgl1000 implants. (1268 with null) Twisted Evil
[Kronos, Blast it]
Large Armor Repairer II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Gallente Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Gallente Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Gallente Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer

Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Gallente Navy Stasis Webifier
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range

Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]

Hybrid Burst Aerator II
Capacitor Control Circuit I


Hammerhead II x5
Ogre II x3



A blaster Kronos with no AB? What happened to Chainsaw Plankton? A well fit 425mm rail Kronos can get about 881 DPS, which is nothing to sneeze at considering the range it can inflict that hurt at.


Oh noes busted for eftwarrioring Crying or Very sad

tbh I just duplicated the rail setup and switched the guns to see what kind of damage output it would have, and played with the rigs a bit to see if I could get better range, and checked the damage rigs for lulz.

putting an afterburner on the thing really wont help, the range is so bad it won't ever make it better. read the now only if blasters worked in pve bit. Sad

and a blaster kronos gets a mwd, use the thing in pvp Twisted Evil

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
Posted - 2009.07.14 00:18:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
Why the hell would people use either t2 ammo (as one replier said) or cap boosters on a RATTING SHIP!

The idea is something that's sustainable (keeping several cap boosters isnt) and to make as much money as possible (burning through thousands of rounds of t2 ammo is NOT effecient, isk wise)




because the isk/hour increase is greater then the ammo cost/hour increase therefore it IS efficient isk wise.

and this is for mission running where a cap booster 800 costs about the same, if not less, then 1 volley of gun/launcher fire, or **** in the ocean, for the increase in dps/tank is very much worth it.

do you think using 5 cap booster 800s (that is what like 15-20k isk?) in a mission where you make 20million, and dropping a cap power relay for a damage mod, and a cap recharger for a tracking comp/painter, and another cap recharger for a cap injector, hurts you? +dps +alpha +hit quality +mission completion speed -20k.

and people will spend millions and even billions for slight increases on faction/officer items.

Victoria Akmea
Gallente
Taishite Kami
Posted - 2009.07.14 04:54:00 - [24]
 

Okay. Taken all that into account...And I've settled on the Nightmare. Great for blitzing, and can fit up a pretty decent tank...And will also be trained faster than any of the others. This is the current fitting.

[Nightmare]

-Lows-

Power Diagnostic System II
Dark Blood Heat Sink
Dark Blood Heat Sink
Dark Blood Heat Sink
Dark Blood Heat Sink

-Mediums-

Dread Guristas X-Large Shield Booster
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Ballistic Deflection Field II
Ballistic Deflection Field II
Heat Dissipation Field II
Heavy Capacitor Booster II
Tracking Computer II

-Highs-

Tachyon Beam Laser II - Amarr Navy Multifrequency
Tachyon Beam Laser II - Amarr Navy Multifrequency
Tachyon Beam Laser II - Amarr Navy Multifrequency
Tachyon Beam Laser II - Amarr Navy Multifrequency
Small Tractor Beam I
Small Tractor Beam I

-Rigs-

Energy Locus Coordinator I
Energy Locus Coordinator II
Semiconductor Memory Cell I

-Drones-
5x Hammerhead II
5x Hobgoblin II

--

Anyway. That'll all fit with some decent skills as well as a 3% PG implant. The resists are interchangable, they're just there to hold the places. The shield booster will be pulsed as needed, as well as the cap booster. With the skills I'll have to fly it..Which will get better, this is only the basic skills...It'll have 5825 volley, 831 dps (without drones), as well as 204 shield HP per second base from the booster. The tractors will be used just to loot what I can while I shuffle from room to room, mission to mission. Most of the modules will be switched to faction as I get space for them.

Anything here I could improve on in ways of fitting, and is there anything else a person would suggest in getting?

Proto TC
Posted - 2009.09.15 19:24:00 - [25]
 

Put another HS. Switch guns to faction from t2.
I am not an expert on the shield tanking but you have to figure a way to not use the charges, i.e. passive tank.
Remember that you want to be far from the mobs as you kill them at long range so you don't need to make it a flying fortress.

Jin Entres
Malevolent Intervention
Posted - 2009.09.15 19:56:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
Why the hell would people use either t2 ammo (as one replier said) or cap boosters on a RATTING SHIP!

The idea is something that's sustainable (keeping several cap boosters isnt) and to make as much money as possible (burning through thousands of rounds of t2 ammo is NOT effecient, isk wise)




All the more reason to use lasers. Crystals last long so T2 (and faction) is easily justified.

And like someone already replied to you, instead of wasting several mods to achieve cap stability, use those slots to make running time faster. Injector is a one slot cap solution and the upkeep costs are quite minimal.

Kedhar
Posted - 2009.09.15 20:18:00 - [27]
 

If you do missions in Amarr space go for a Paladin, and if you fly in Caldari/Gallente space get a Kronos.

[Kronos, Kronos Final II]
Centus X-Type Large Armor Repairer
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Gallente Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Gallente Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Gallente Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer

Gallente Navy Tracking Computer, Optimal Range
Gallente Navy Tracking Computer, Optimal Range
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II

425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]

Large Capacitor Control Circuit II
Large Capacitor Control Circuit II


[Paladin, Paladin Final II]
Centus X-Type Large Armor Repairer
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor EM Hardener II
Amarr Navy Heat Sink
Amarr Navy Heat Sink
Amarr Navy Heat Sink

Gallente Navy Tracking Computer, Optimal Range
Gallente Navy Tracking Computer, Optimal Range
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II

Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]

Large Capacitor Control Circuit II
Large Capacitor Control Circuit II



Kronos:
Tank: 1140 (Gurista)
Gank: 731
Range: 48+30

Paladin:
Tank: 800 (Sansha)
Gank: 772
Range: 59+10



Manu Hermanus
FaDoyToy
Posted - 2009.09.15 20:20:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Proto TC
Put another HS. Switch guns to faction from t2.
I am not an expert on the shield tanking but you have to figure a way to not use the charges, i.e. passive tank.
Remember that you want to be far from the mobs as you kill them at long range so you don't need to make it a flying fortress.


nice 2 month bump Laughing

and no keep the guns t2 they do more damage then faction.

ropnes
Posted - 2009.09.15 20:38:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: ropnes on 15/09/2009 20:39:45
Originally by: Kedhar


[Paladin, Paladin Final II]
Centus X-Type Large Armor Repairer
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor EM Hardener II
Amarr Navy Heat Sink
Amarr Navy Heat Sink
Amarr Navy Heat Sink

Gallente Navy Tracking Computer, Optimal Range
Gallente Navy Tracking Computer, Optimal Range
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II

Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]

Large Capacitor Control Circuit II
Large Capacitor Control Circuit II




Sorry but that fit would be overtanked even for a sentry Domi that never moves and DPSes less. If you're fitting a permatank on a marauder you might as well fly something else

You can lose the redundant hardener and fit either another Heat Sink, or another cap mod and lose one of the Cap Rechargers and fit a web instead. The X-Type rep is a great but it's 1.5bil. An A-Type is almost as good and goes for half the price, and even an A-Type is not really needed. I mean, it's not wrong to fit an X-Type but when mods start getting into the billion price range then... all sorts of things. Suicide ganks for one

T2 rigs don't have any tangible benefit either, but cost a lot.
Spend some of the isk on deadspace hardeners instead. They don't cost THAT much and help much more than that rep you fitted

Guillame Herschel
Gallente
NME1
Posted - 2009.09.15 21:56:00 - [30]
 

The Panther ducked.


 

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