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Zenst
Hall Of Flame
Chain of Chaos
Posted - 2009.07.09 02:36:00 - [1]
 

Why cant bugs that have been esculated by tracked further or indeed the ability to get a update beyond CCP??

Why are most support petitions raised thesedays dealt with by top line readers with a perchatn to reply "can we close this" despite it being a issue that the user has no way to get a update or indeed track beyond the petition system.

Why has eve's petiton system and indeed customer support actualy goten worse over the past year.

Why do CCP acknowledge bugs then dont give you any way to get a update and force you to wait upteen patch's in the hope its fixed in some patch notes.

Indeed the life of a bug from being a known issue to being address is close to a year is it not. Heck even had a simple seed skills issue drag on for the best part of 6 months. Simple issue to fix, one that CCP even acknowlegded as simple to fix, yet takes so long you can but only **** people off.

Seriosly the whole bugtracking/petition system and indeed the people who reply to petitions known as GM's I shall refer to them as General Morons to protect there names get a overhall.

How hard is it to have a system were users can track issues once they have been accepted as an issue?

Well its not that hard, yet CCP seems intent on living in the stone-age and insults its customers with ignorant "can we close it" responses so often its a company mantra. Is it fixed is it still an issue, bah who cares "can we close it yet"

===



What is other people experience of support in other games, and how do they compare to eve.

How do CCP's ability to address issues in a timely manner rate with your understanding/experience/expectations?

If you could do the whole bug/petition system from scratch - what would you idealy have. Would you have a top 10 GM's list based upon user feedback, would you have weekly updates.

As a side note I thought remedy was a pain in the assets but if all the petitioons/bugs CCP had were placed in it , they would break it due to the amount of overdue updates.

Do others feel the general intellegence of responses has gone downhill? Why?


Trathen
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.07.09 02:56:00 - [2]
 

What are you talking about? Examples help.


Can we close this?

Zenst
Hall Of Flame
Chain of Chaos
Posted - 2009.07.09 03:11:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Trathen
What are you talking about? Examples help.


Can we close this?


HAHA,

Point I'm trying to make is.

1) you as a customer raise a bug or a issue or a petition

2) CCP will acknowledge said bug/issue/petition and if its a patch needing fix leave you compeletely and utterly in the dark

3) months and possibly years pass and indeed several patch's without a sign of your bug/issue being fixed at all

4) You still have no idea as to whats going on as any attempt to get a update is dealt with by people who read the first line and fail to read beyond that.

5) CCP petition system as a bias and indeed perchant for wanting to close the petition/bug/issue over actualy dealing with it.


I could give you some examples but hey, thats against the EULA to discuss such matters is it not.

Hope that clears things up.

So what would you like to see beyond being updated in a push manner rather than having to try pull that information which as it stands is only via petitions which are met with about as much intellegence as most forum responses.

Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2009.07.09 03:41:00 - [4]
 

I don't remember EVE-Online being advertised as you being able to get your issues fixed priority over other issues or that you will be involved in the bug fixing process at all.

If you find a bug, then you submit it and that's all you do as a customer. CCP has an avalanche of things to fix and they decide what gets fixed first and what has to wait. CCP also actually *works* and doesn't not have time to play the game 23/7 and read the forums and catalog every ***** and whine that players belch onto the forums.

If CCP is on it, they are on it. Maybe take years to fix but if you think that is strange then this must be the first PC video game you have ever played. I have seen much, MUCH worse support from video game companies.

Khemul Zula
Amarr
Keisen Trade League
Posted - 2009.07.09 03:54:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Vaal Erit
I don't remember EVE-Online being advertised as you being able to get your issues fixed priority over other issues or that you will be involved in the bug fixing process at all.

If you find a bug, then you submit it and that's all you do as a customer. CCP has an avalanche of things to fix and they decide what gets fixed first and what has to wait. CCP also actually *works* and doesn't not have time to play the game 23/7 and read the forums and catalog every ***** and whine that players belch onto the forums.

If CCP is on it, they are on it. Maybe take years to fix but if you think that is strange then this must be the first PC video game you have ever played. I have seen much, MUCH worse support from video game companies.
But I pay them (some amount that is automatically payed and I never bother looking at)! My voice must be heard!

Same principle happens in heavy traffic also. That person that is about to slam into the stopped car in front of them at 90 mph must be heard! So of course they slam on the horn, right before slamming into the stationary car. And of course, much like the average customer, no one really cares about the horn blaring. Although they may take an interest in the twisted wreckage, thus a traffic jam is born. Forum threads are the twisted wreckage of the development world.

Zenst
Hall Of Flame
Chain of Chaos
Posted - 2009.07.09 04:06:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Vaal Erit
I don't remember EVE-Online being advertised as you being able to get your issues fixed priority over other issues or that you will be involved in the bug fixing process at all.

If you find a bug, then you submit it and that's all you do as a customer. CCP has an avalanche of things to fix and they decide what gets fixed first and what has to wait. CCP also actually *works* and doesn't not have time to play the game 23/7 and read the forums and catalog every ***** and whine that players belch onto the forums.

If CCP is on it, they are on it. Maybe take years to fix but if you think that is strange then this must be the first PC video game you have ever played. I have seen much, MUCH worse support from video game companies.


You missed the point, beyond raising the issue we have no way to track its progress and as you said compleetely at teh wim of ccp who offer no feedback whatsoever as to status of such show stopers.

What game have you played thats been worse for support, please enlighten instead of offering a throw-away statement like that.

point is CCP isn't on it when they go yes we know what that is and can fix it and then dont for best part of a year, thats hardly clever now is it??

If your ide of customer service is to take it from behind and go yes sir can I have another then there are many companies out there that welcome people like you. Alas it dosn't make things any better now does it.

Whats missing is the ability to get weekly or indeed monthly updates beyond marketing blogs which dont address current issues in a timely manner. If at all.

If you believe CCP are on it when they say they are and then they spend over a year to move a decimal point, then you have to redefine your ambitions in life to be within a 1 meter radius!

Please also bear in mind that EVe-Online wasn;t advertised as having bugs, indeed I have the original box set and there are aspects outlined in that which have still to make it into the game today. So dont go all fan-boy without all the facts. Have a good think about it and ask yourself are you realy happy with that level of feedback or would you be happier with better feedback.

I bet you its the latter and thats the area I'm trying to reflect, sure ccp dont read tere own support forums, that what you saying, as thats hardly indicative of a support forum now is it.

But point is simple, there needs to be a more granular, accountable level of handerling issues, even if its a known issue list updated once a month, thats light-years beyond what we get currently. Lets also face it even you could do that simple task and how long would it take to do a updated issue list that was release to the punters once a month, not much effort at all but would sure go a long way. People dont like being left in the dark and even if its feedback like - we have been to busy on this, as long as its not templated responses all the time, goes along way.

I accept there are problems, and I accept you accept there are problems, just be nice to have that confirmed as to were we are once in a while. How anybody could put up with anything else is beyond common sence too me at least.

Cors
It's A Trap
It's A Trap Alliance
Posted - 2009.07.09 04:25:00 - [7]
 

Would you rather them take the time to tell you that the petition you just gave them is similar to 50 others, and that it was being added to those 50 others till there was enough info for the bug hunters to figure it out and act on it.

OR would you rather they add it to the 50 other similar ones, then quickly move on to the next bug report.. and the next.. and the next. and the next.

If they responded to every petition with anything near the detail we all want, then it'd double, or even triple the time it takes them to deal with each individual Bug report.

Myself, as long as the bug gets fixed, then I'm happy.

If the bug keeps cropping up, then report on it again with more details so they can add to the list of the other bug reports about this particular bug.

Hell, about 90% of the time the petition you have just entered is basically crap, and they can't use it for anything. So they blow you off. The rare times when it's good, they add it to the others. individually they don't have enough info to fix the bug. Add them up and they add up to a problem they can act on.

Zenst
Hall Of Flame
Chain of Chaos
Posted - 2009.07.09 05:01:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Cors
Would you rather them take the time to tell you that the petition you just gave them is similar to 50 others, and that it was being added to those 50 others till there was enough info for the bug hunters to figure it out and act on it.

OR would you rather they add it to the 50 other similar ones, then quickly move on to the next bug report.. and the next.. and the next. and the next.

If they responded to every petition with anything near the detail we all want, then it'd double, or even triple the time it takes them to deal with each individual Bug report.

Myself, as long as the bug gets fixed, then I'm happy.

If the bug keeps cropping up, then report on it again with more details so they can add to the list of the other bug reports about this particular bug.

Hell, about 90% of the time the petition you have just entered is basically crap, and they can't use it for anything. So they blow you off. The rare times when it's good, they add it to the others. individually they don't have enough info to fix the bug. Add them up and they add up to a problem they can act on.


You assert insight only somebody from inside would know!

But missed the point, when I said feedback dont assume they must reply to say all 50 when they could have ew say a website of known issues were those 50 people could track it centraly perhaps and even help out testing it on the test server as they would be aware of it being at that stage.

AS it stands its a black hole and as such you the player have no idea if it will be fixed today tomorrowm next year or indeed at all and even rebugging or petiutioning it gets you nowere. So in those and indeed most situations I'd rather they just did it right in the first place.

If its a known issue/problem they could link you to the respective problem, or indeed you could read about it and add something to it without duplicating. This would remarkablly be much more effecient for CCP and indeed the players.

The whole black-hole aspect only leads people to go, fluck it I Cant be assed to bother as its a waste of my time I'll just expliot this as CCP will just waste my time style approach.

Indeed I found a very expliotable issue ingame once, bugged it, twice, then saw it take a long long time to get fixed, did I avail of it, no but eventualy others discovered it and took great advantage from it. Which is sad. Now expliot area's is one area were detailed feedback and people knowing about the issue is in itself a issue.

But I'm not focusing on that area more upon the area of - its a problem, you know its a problem, how are we doing on that. Coz as it stands many many many people can and wil raise the same issue duplicating work and indeed increasing the workload of bug hunters who get passed the same bug by a GM as the GM's and BH's have no formal way to update each other, as such as punters err players have no chance of knowing whats going on, coz the GM's dont even know (least what I've been told by a GM and indeed a BH) , hardly a ideal situation.

Now when CCP had a handful of each then it would be easy for common network/socialising amongst them to enable them to apprise each other of known issues and as such handle them a alot better than there handeled today.

CCP has grown, the customer base has grown and with that so have the problems.

Sure were happy when a bug is fixed but having an update or even a rough ETA is something indicative to a well oiled planned and run machine which is not apparent as it stands.

I would love to see a issue list, updated, effort wise wouldn;t take much to action and would actualy save time and effort allround. How can you disagree with that?

But to do that they need to accept that feedback is paramount and as it stands its utterly non-existent with regards to known issues.

If some people are happy to keep banging there head on the same low ceiling then frankly they need help.

Rhohan
Minmatar Marauders
Posted - 2009.07.09 05:36:00 - [9]
 

Zenst, you by far, over simplify the issue.

I honestly belive that what you request would be a management nightmare.

If you are only looking for info, you get that once the bug has been filtered.
If you are looking for a two way converstion with the Devs, someone would have to take the time to respond to all those queries, and not do any other work, which is what I believe Cors was trying to say.

I have a feeling that managing this would make managing the petition system a cake walk.


Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2009.07.09 06:03:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Zenst

You missed the point, beyond raising the issue we have no way to track its progress and as you said compleetely at teh wim of ccp who offer no feedback whatsoever as to status of such show stopers.



You sound like the kind of guy that after giving is car to fix to a mechanic want hourly reports on the state of the fix.

That can be done if you are one of 10 people that has taken his car tot hat mechanic. Here we are speaking of hundred of thousand of persons with teen of thousands of bug report and petitions. So no, you can't get your hourly report unless you are willing to pay several hundred dollars/month for your subscription to get you personal phone guy.

That said, if you want that kind of information about the bugs you find, join the voluntary Bug Hunters.
If you have the skills and the patience to work with them you will have better knowledge of how the process of patching the bug you discovered is going.


Note too that there is a very got reason not to set up a "know bug" page, especially if they are exploitable. You think it would be smart to say "We are tracking bug Alpha about X"? If in that name there is enough information to recognize the bug almost certainly there is enough information to allow people to know that there is a bug in that part of the game and get some of them to try exploiting it.
Think about the exploitable bug you found. How many people would have tried to exploit it after reading "Exploitable bug is not jet corrected but we are studying it"?

That is the reason why in patch notes the list of exploitable bug corrected as changed to "a number of exploit has been corrected making EVE a better world". CCP know that until tested on the live server for a long period of time no bug fix is guaranteed to be perfect so the prefer not advertising the existence of the bug even after correction.

RaTTuS
BIG
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2009.07.09 08:19:00 - [11]
 

if the bug database is public then you'll get a lot more people exploiting the bugs, as they will know where they exist ... this is not good for all

Tzar'rim
Posted - 2009.07.09 10:13:00 - [12]
 

EVE has shoddy QA, if any at all and it's certainly not on par with most other MMO's. New players expecting the same polish, hand holding and attention as in other MMO's get a rude wakeup call.

This is not something new or amazing but it certainly drives one up the wall at times.

Catari Taga
Centre Of Attention
Middle of Nowhere
Posted - 2009.07.09 10:46:00 - [13]
 

I have gotten nothing but excellent CS in EVE so far, much superior to what I've seen in other games. I've had petitions answered in under 10 seconds, which is plain awesome. But maybe I'm just lucky.

The bug reporting procedure on the other hand is nothing but abysmal to the point where I pretty much stopped doing bug reports. My problem is not with bugs being acknowledged and taking time to fix, that's cool, but rather the way bugs are being brushed off for random reasons by some of the bug hunters (the "cannot reproduce" response to a bug report with logs and screenshots is one of my favorites, although I like as well the "working as intended" and then getting a dev to acknowledge the bug on the forums a day later, and of course the "fixed internally" to something that is still not fixed a year later).

Zenst
Hall Of Flame
Chain of Chaos
Posted - 2009.07.09 16:32:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: RaTTuS
if the bug database is public then you'll get a lot more people exploiting the bugs, as they will know where they exist ... this is not good for all


Hiya RaTTus,

Well I'm on about the non-exploitable ones as I said. Eve does have a known-issue page, its just never uptodate and massivly lacking content. Heck even internaly there seems to be split opinions as they did recently ask for and state it would be updated more often yet all the issues added to the thread got ignored and the thread closed and indeed the known issue page left untouched again.

As indicated by these urls:

Known issue list thats ALWAYS soo out of date and scant

Its is an issue, lets update it NOT!

I quote "This post is just a quick update, to let everyone know what is going on with the Known Issues page at the moment. As you may have noticed, it has not been updated very often of late. The good news is that we are working on some ways that we can keep it more relevant and more up to date, and better track the items listed on it (and where they fit within our internal Defect Tracking system). As such, an updated known issues listing has been posted today.

Over the coming days we will continue to update it with issues that should be there, and also try and include some useful information on the issues in the list.

Please note that there may well be quite a few issues that are currently known but not on the list. If you think you know of one, please reply here.

"


As you can see many people replied (though given it wasn't a news or ingame new event, most missed the thread - if only a Amarrian had sat on a cake - then it would of made the news). I cant see any of those issue raised being of expliot nature and indeed also appear to of not been addressed or tracked anywere beyond the posters reply. IE nothing, they all got ignored it would appear :(.

I know its an issue, CCP knows its an issue, most players know its an issue -- indeed most people I've spoken to who have raised a bug have never ever done so again as they had such a bad experience and felt like they were urinating into the wind during the whole process.

So its simple, the more transparent CCP are about handeling common, non offencive/exploitable issues to the extent that most things stay broken then other people will only duplicate with frustration the issues you already know about. Taking up more GM and BH time and more so alienating more and more players in the process with this tardy approach.


I'm also starting to suspect that there are people internaly to CCP who are just as frustrated at this whole mess than I and others.

I dare CCP to run a survey or indeed see how many people have raised a bug and from that experience never ever raised one again. Kinda sad when you look at it from that angle, is it not.



--
Focus on the positives, not the negatives or you will turn positives into negatives
--

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.07.10 10:53:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Tzar'rim
EVE has shoddy QA, if any at all and it's certainly not on par with most other MMO's. New players expecting the same polish, hand holding and attention as in other MMO's get a rude wakeup call.

This is not something new or amazing but it certainly drives one up the wall at times.


I prefer to think of EvE as having a certain shameless quirky charm.

Gunnanmon
Gallente
PURPLE.
Posted - 2009.07.10 13:07:00 - [16]
 

Please don't criticise CCP.

TY.

Zenst
Hall Of Flame
Chain of Chaos
Posted - 2009.07.13 02:00:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Gunnanmon
Please don't criticise CCP.

TY.


oi Mr Ignorant, I was stating facts - if its bad then they need to deal with it and not there mommy ;p.


 

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