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Exlegion
Caldari
Salva Veritate
Posted - 2009.07.04 22:42:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Exlegion on 11/07/2009 20:53:52


***TL;DR: You don’t need combat probes to probe prey down. By using D-scanner you can pinpoint a prey’s location to within 1 AU. Only use combat probes to get a 100% warpable hit. Keep them in space for only 6 seconds. Unless the prey is smashing the scan button every 6 seconds he will never see you coming.***

Greetings fellow pilots,

Lately I've been noticing an increasing trend where I am being probed down without me ever seing combat probes on my on-board scanner (overview settings unchecked, 360 degrees, max scanning range, objects rearranged by type, etc). I haven't been "caught" yet as I am always aligned. I am also extremely paranoid in low security space. I hit the scan button every 30 to 60 seconds, more or less. I always search for combat, sisters combat, and deep space probes. This week alone I was scanned down by two different groups of pirates on two different missions both of which managed to intrude without me ever detecting a single probe!


My concern is probing players as it is has become extremely easy after the last major patch. Add this new "feature" (new at least to me) and probing down mission runners in low security space has become a golden egg which can/will quickly be 'exploited' to a point that will negatively impact low security space and all its inhabitants, including pirates themselves. I’ve had to revoke missions once they become compromised. My efficiency and profits are quickly declining and high security is becoming more and more lucrative, even though the rewards are less.

I think I have figured out on why the probes are being missed by my on-board scanner but would like someone to post the exact procedures, if it isn’t too much to ask, on how it is done. Also, I would like to ask CCP if this is an unforeseen consequence due to the changes made to the probing system. If it is not an oversight (it is intended), would this not further desolate low security space from “prey”? Opinions, flames, facts, and trolls all welcome.

Edit: Changed title to reflect current problem and added TL;DR.


Cypherous
Minmatar
Lions of Judah Incorporated
Posted - 2009.07.04 22:52:00 - [2]
 

Well my probes always show up on my scanner if i'm not using the overview settings even post patch, given it only takes 8-10 seconds to score a hit unless you're spamming that button every few seconds you can miss the probes, with decent equipment and probes it really is easy to probe them out, the max scan range of the directional scanner is also only 14au and probes can scan further than that, while its highly unlikely to provide a warpable hit it does let them narrow it down to an area of space and they can then drop the smaller probes and go for a scan and as i said unless you're spamming that button it can be hard to see it coming.

Dirk Magnum
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
Posted - 2009.07.04 22:53:00 - [3]
 

Oh I do hope it was Exlegion's Chimera that got probed down Very Happy

Tammarr
Posted - 2009.07.05 00:12:00 - [4]
 

I to have been scanned down, first time I lost a ship in a mission.
Heres the thing. I knew they were in system, I knew they had a prober, I let my domi deal with the rats in its own pace, constantly hitting scan, that is every 15-25s, I was very vigilant.
No probes, but boom. Suddenly, a blinky appears in pocket, and got me scrammed, rest followed.
I didnt complain, but it made me annoyed, others have been reporting probes not showing up.
If it turns out there is some kind of exploit here, I will petition.
...overview sorted by type...

RuleoftheBone
Minmatar
Black Viper Nomads
Posted - 2009.07.05 01:13:00 - [5]
 

Protip: Smart covops/probe-equipped recon pilots suck back the probes at a 100% hit ready for re-launching at a hint of logoffski Cool.


Orb Lati
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2009.07.05 01:23:00 - [6]
 

So let me get this straight.

you were in a dead space anomaly and the nasty pirate used core probes to get the anomaly (where you were) and not combat probes to find you ship.

Thernys
Caldari
Capital Construction Research
Pioneer Alliance
Posted - 2009.07.05 01:25:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Thernys on 05/07/2009 01:27:53
Another protip, smart scouts locate their prey using directional, launch probes outside of directional range where possible, arrange them, run a scan, recall, the probes are visible to the victim for perhaps 10 seconds.

Edit, spleling.

Exlegion
Caldari
Salva Veritate
Posted - 2009.07.05 01:31:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Exlegion on 05/07/2009 01:32:31
Orb Lati,

No, these were level 4 (agent assigned) missions, not anomalies. And the last time I was invaded (tonight) I didn't see core probes either. I can't know for sure on the other times because 1, too many objects were picked up by my onboard, and 2, I was not specifically looking for core probes, only the ones I listed on the OP. Is it even possible to scan mission deadspace using core probes?


Exlegion
Caldari
Salva Veritate
Posted - 2009.07.05 01:43:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Thernys
Edited by: Thernys on 05/07/2009 01:27:53
Another protip, smart scouts locate their prey using directional, launch probes outside of directional range where possible, arrange them, run a scan, recall, the probes are visible to the victim for perhaps 10 seconds.

Edit, spleling.

See bold. This is exactly my concern. Is it reasonable to expect a player to spam the scan button every 10 seconds when a neutral enters system? Or will he have to dock every time a neutral enters system? These scenarios are the reasons low security space is becoming less profitable and less desirable. In my opinion it won't help anyone in the long run.


Jimer Lins
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2009.07.05 02:36:00 - [10]
 

What I do is get a good line on the target with directional scanner, so I know about where they are. Then I drop probes way out of their scan range. Position the probes, and I can take my time to get them just right.

Then hit scan. The probes warp, they land, scan- takes about 5 seconds- then I hit "recover". Unless you were scanning during that window, you didn't see them, but I have a 100% hit.

Your best bet for avoiding this is to scan every 2-3 seconds if hostiles are in local or leave.


WarlockX
Amarr
Free Trade Corp
Posted - 2009.07.05 03:51:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Jimer Lins
What I do is get a good line on the target with directional scanner, so I know about where they are. Then I drop probes way out of their scan range. Position the probes, and I can take my time to get them just right.

Then hit scan. The probes warp, they land, scan- takes about 5 seconds- then I hit "recover". Unless you were scanning during that window, you didn't see them, but I have a 100% hit.

Your best bet for avoiding this is to scan every 2-3 seconds if hostiles are in local or leave.




That sounds broken. You can't really expect ppl to hit scan every 2-3 seconds.

Blane Xero
Amarr
The Firestorm Cartel
Posted - 2009.07.05 04:04:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: WarlockX
That sounds broken. You can't really expect ppl to hit scan every 2-3 seconds.
Sadly i'm going to agree with this. There's already enough micro-management if you are lowsec missioning/plexing, and bringing along a scout friend/alt wont change it since they are either sitting doing nothing but spam scan, or you're still doing the micro-management but across two characters (Which is harder). I personally scan about once every 5-10 seconds, any more and i'll break my index finger from Clicking/wrist from jerking reactions every 2 seconds (Countdown till joke 3...2...1...)

Grarr Dexx
Amarr
Kumovi
The G0dfathers
Posted - 2009.07.05 05:26:00 - [13]
 

By any chance you were in a shield-rigged, invuln-blaring capital ship that was shieldboosting and had fighters out?

Nareg Maxence
Gallente
Posted - 2009.07.05 06:53:00 - [14]
 

Others have provided the real answer, but here is another tip. You should sort directional scanner by Name, not by Type. Since the Typename of scanner probes differ depending in the kind of probe, the different probe types wont be in the same place alphabetically on the list if you sort by type. If you sort by Name, they are all under 'S' for 'Scanner Probe'.

Forge Lag
Jita Lag Preservation Fund
Posted - 2009.07.05 07:23:00 - [15]
 

So the scanning mechanics is not really broken. The interface that would allow for interesting and tense hunter-prey interaction is broken. Who would say that, EvE UI is terrible, getting in the way for no good reason and designed by morons who will not get a clue after years on job (see new scanning interface for proof).

Yes, they move probes in, scan, move them out. There is no obligation to keep probes in range to keep the hit.

Yes, you should hit scan every few seconds if you want to play the game correctly and fiter results without filters. Button mashing at its finest. Screw that.

Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
Posted - 2009.07.05 07:59:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Forge Lag
..
Yes, you should hit scan every few seconds if you want to play the game correctly and fiter results without filters. Button mashing at its finest. Screw that.

Nobody will see scan probes on scanner when he doesn't hit the scan button every 3 seconds but on the other hand, you only see them when the scanner shows you all findings... lol. Try to sort through the results in a reasonable amount of time.
Its just simply broken that way.

And as I know the Pirates they'll make use of the 6 sec scan probe window near the target to their hearts extend..

Apoc 1.4 better is about a new intel-scanning-system then or shortly after the vanishing of the prey the predators will suffer.

Fall Girl
Posted - 2009.07.05 11:10:00 - [17]
 

EVE is not a single player game.

Siren Call
DOOMSDAY.
Minor Threat.
Posted - 2009.07.05 11:16:00 - [18]
 

We have noticed that Sisters scan probes sometimes do not appear on scanner. This could be your issue. We have not managed to recreate this bug though.

Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
Chubby Chuppers Chubba Chups
Posted - 2009.07.05 13:01:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Le Skunk on 05/07/2009 13:05:07
Originally by: Exlegion

This is exactly my concern. Is it reasonable to expect a player to spam the scan button every 10 seconds when a neutral enters system? Or will he have to dock every time a neutral enters system?



You can dock if you wish to be 100% safe. Or if you wish to continue to profit from the extra rewards you decided were worth moving to lowsec to run your missions, you can stay alert, scan, and align to get out and be 90% safe.

Whilst i would certainly agree it is inconvienieant to spam your scan every 10 seconds to be extra safe - its the trade off for being in lowsec.

ArrowIt is worth noting ALL pilots in lowsec have to do this, be they mission runers or combat pilots in a SS, or pirate scouts scanning for incoming ships.

If this is not acceptable to you - get back into highsec.

ArrowBears in lowsec are driven purely by greed.This runs at odd with the Bears natural cowardice. Its tough being a bear.

SKUNK


Spurty
Caldari
V0LTA
VOLTA Corp
Posted - 2009.07.05 13:06:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: WarlockX

That sounds broken. You can't really expect ppl to hit scan every 2-3 seconds.


many people disagree and wish for local to go away as a proof that not only MUST you, but if you can't, its your fault you die every time you undock for more than 8 seconds ;0

The future is neigh!

Exlegion
Caldari
Salva Veritate
Posted - 2009.07.05 13:09:00 - [21]
 

I'd say having to spam your scan button every 10 seconds or less is more than just a trade-off. It's simply madness and quite unreasonable. I suspect this was a simple oversight from CCP's part. But it would be nice to get an official comment.


Spurty
Caldari
V0LTA
VOLTA Corp
Posted - 2009.07.05 13:10:00 - [22]
 

oh and as someone already mentioned, its not a single player game.

Why aren't you running in a gang with pvp support? Seems your mission running will always bring pvp to to you (It doesn't get much better than that), so get people that want to pvp in gang and second you get guests, warp em in to whoop em.

More wrecks make more prizes. These rats might even drop faction loot / t2 gear. Its WELL WORTH IT.

Exlegion
Caldari
Salva Veritate
Posted - 2009.07.05 13:12:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Grarr Dexx
By any chance you were in a shield-rigged, invuln-blaring capital ship that was shieldboosting and had fighters out?

No. All times I've been probed down has been on a battleship hull. I'd like to add that I'm pretty alert in low sec and it is not a question of me being half asleep or such. As I said before, I am extremely paranoid in low sec. And my concern is that spamming a button for my own security now fails me because I am not spamming it enough.


Exlegion
Caldari
Salva Veritate
Posted - 2009.07.05 13:14:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Spurty
oh and as someone already mentioned, its not a single player game.

Why aren't you running in a gang with pvp support? Seems your mission running will always bring pvp to to you (It doesn't get much better than that), so get people that want to pvp in gang and second you get guests, warp em in to whoop em.

More wrecks make more prizes. These rats might even drop faction loot / t2 gear. Its WELL WORTH IT.


Are you suggesting I should have players donate their time to protect me while I run my missions? Will your own corporation do me the honor?


Bish Ounen
Gallente
Best Path Inc.
Cult of War
Posted - 2009.07.05 13:51:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Exlegion
Originally by: Spurty
oh and as someone already mentioned, its not a single player game.

Why aren't you running in a gang with pvp support? Seems your mission running will always bring pvp to to you (It doesn't get much better than that), so get people that want to pvp in gang and second you get guests, warp em in to whoop em.

More wrecks make more prizes. These rats might even drop faction loot / t2 gear. Its WELL WORTH IT.


Are you suggesting I should have players donate their time to protect me while I run my missions? Will your own corporation do me the honor?




Why not have your own corp help you out? Unless you are in a one-man corp, you should have some corp members willing to help you. If you don't, I would suggest finding yourself a proper corp that actually gives a damn about it's members, and is willing to help them out. Keep in mind that PVP players will WELCOME a chance to get into a fight and will gladly come along with you to try and bait pirates. The fact that you would have to share some of the mission rewards (via the bounty system) with them is only icing on the cake for PVP people.

Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
Posted - 2009.07.05 14:54:00 - [26]
 

Prior to Apocrypha you needed bloody damn good skills, a cov ops and right equipment to even probe someone down before they disappeared from directional when they logged off.

Now you need a kids skills (a 2 day old character found me in a site in low sec), basic gear and it goes damn fast. The other guys above posted some ideas of tactics used (I like the directional/recall one myself, as probes are minimum time in space).

Not sure what I like tbh. This new system requires interaction and isn't as 'hard' on players, skillwise, which both is nice. But then again, it's way too fast and easy at the same time.

Will anything ever be balanced, in any MMO? Razz
/me shrugs

Exlegion
Caldari
Salva Veritate
Posted - 2009.07.05 15:09:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Exlegion on 05/07/2009 15:19:06


Agreed. PVE vs. PVP arguments aside, combat probes seem to be unbalanced at the moment. To start they could use an increase in time to around 30 to 60 seconds in scan time with max skills. That would force them to remain in space for at least that long. One would still need to spam the scan button every thirty secons or so, but it would be realistically doable, unlike every 5 to 10 seconds as it is now! I personally would prefer to only have to spam every minute or so, but that idea probably wouldn't go too well with the hunters.


Caelum Dominus
Genos Occidere
Posted - 2009.07.05 15:19:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Caelum Dominus on 05/07/2009 15:21:13
Originally by: Exlegion
to start off they could use an increase to around 30 to 60 seconds in scan time with max skills.




Yeah, let's continue to nerf the **** out of PvP because you don't like it. On a more helpful note, there's no need to scan for probes in the first place. Just stay aligned and warp whenever someone decloaks. It's that easy.

Blane Xero
Amarr
The Firestorm Cartel
Posted - 2009.07.05 15:24:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Bish Ounen
Why not have your own corp help you out? Unless you are in a one-man corp, you should have some corp members willing to help you. If you don't, I would suggest finding yourself a proper corp that actually gives a damn about it's members, and is willing to help them out. Keep in mind that PVP players will WELCOME a chance to get into a fight and will gladly come along with you to try and bait pirates. The fact that you would have to share some of the mission rewards (via the bounty system) with them is only icing on the cake for PVP people.


By sharing bounties you cut out any reason for missioning in lowsec over highsec. Bringing 2 people into a mission does not directly half the time it takes to do a mission, but it does half the income. Same with bringing 3, 4 people. Profit does not scale with People linearly.

Tammarr
Posted - 2009.07.05 15:41:00 - [30]
 

nerf pvp? nerf the insane probably non intended buff to piracy. Earlier, you could get out of your mission if you were vigilant, now you have no idea they are coming?
Earlier, there was no problem getting someone in a mission that didnt check to often.
I do piracy, I do missionbusting, I do this when I'am bored, if I want to kill a rat, then Ill go run my own missions. Killing a missionrunner, is like killing your standard belt bs rat. Dont call it pvp =) (Ok, sometimes they'll actually agree to a ransom long as your reasonable.)
No, I'am not upset, and yes, if we got hostiles in sys, we usually plan a tarp for them. So I'am not to concerned but meh, to much of a buff is to much.



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