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Jimmy Duce
Gallente
Chaotic Tranquility
Posted - 2009.06.30 15:20:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Venomire
Originally by: TZeer
Wait, what?

There was no capital heavy mercenary before the stuff got seeded on TQ. The main difference was that not many allainces saw the need for massive capfleets. And when suddenly a well organised group could put close 100% of their members in cap ships and wreck havoc, the more carebearish alliances got a wakeup call.
They where lagging behind, but only for so long.

Duh.

Like I said, that **** was dead when it started. Only I used more words.


Be nice! I had to read it twice to get it the first time.

Stretchmeat Crotchquake
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.06.30 15:23:00 - [32]
 

The problem with hiring out mercenaries is that alliances would get more bang for their buck by just buying more cap ships.

Jimmy Duce
Gallente
Chaotic Tranquility
Posted - 2009.06.30 15:33:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Stretchmeat Crotchquake
The problem with hiring out mercenaries is that alliances would get more bang for their buck by just buying more cap ships.

I must say serious goon postages have never dissapointed me before but you sir just failed to understand. FUN, SAND BOX, THIS IS WHAT I CHOOSE TO DO WITH MY GAME AND ISK.

I also don't think it will work in the long run cause if u don't hold space the constant replacement will kill you, but someone needs to try especially since you guys "won" eve. Look on the map. Nothin is wrong with the nap train. Valid tactic and no e honer and all that crap. But what are u goign to do now? Take down your own towers in Querious and dare anyone to take it? You've won and nobody can beat u. Atleast with someone that you can't "kick back to empire" Sov can have an X factor and be fun again.

Sure, you have no intrest in Catch, who would you just accomplished you goal. But wait a month or 3 years. You'll need something else to do. And after the eventual defeat of -A- and Atlas and anyone else foolish enough to stand against the swarm Eve = dead before I even tried my hand at the stupid boring CTA POS bash festival.

Machine Delta
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.06.30 15:38:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Jimmy Duce
Originally by: Stretchmeat Crotchquake
The problem with hiring out mercenaries is that alliances would get more bang for their buck by just buying more cap ships.

I must say serious goon postages have never dissapointed me before but you sir just failed to understand. FUN, SAND BOX, THIS IS WHAT I CHOOSE TO DO WITH MY GAME AND ISK.

I also don't think it will work in the long run cause if u don't hold space the constant replacement will kill you, but someone needs to try especially since you guys "won" eve. Look on the map. Nothin is wrong with the nap train. Valid tactic and no e honer and all that crap. But what are u goign to do now? Take down your own towers in Querious and dare anyone to take it? You've won and nobody can beat u. Atleast with someone that you can't "kick back to empire" Sov can have an X factor and be fun again.

Sure, you have no intrest in Catch, who would you just accomplished you goal. But wait a month or 3 years. You'll need something else to do. And after the eventual defeat of -A- and Atlas and anyone else foolish enough to stand against the swarm Eve = dead before I even tried my hand at the stupid boring CTA POS bash festival.



You guys are crying pretty hard from empire about EVE BEING DEAD whilst not getting a ship, heading to 0.0 and doing something about it. We're not omnipresent, we don't want to control all of 0.0 space and we don't even want to destroy the game. We're just doing what we want to do to have fun and you should do the same and stop crying about what we do.

Jimmy Duce
Gallente
Chaotic Tranquility
Posted - 2009.06.30 15:59:00 - [35]
 

Edited by: Jimmy Duce on 30/06/2009 16:04:24
yes I'm mad [look I'm stealing your targets]. History is written by the victors. If you look around yourself and think Goonswarm is failswarm... I worry for you [not really, but I felt I should say it]. You've won, your currently having fun. You'll get bored and with the last "big" obstacle gone who will stop you when you do? [Big lie don't believe a word I'm saying] I have and have had friends in the swarm. They get bored. They tell their leaders they are bored and like good leaders they find something for their corp/alliance to do. What is the next thing to do now that you've "won" after the initial ohh this is the 100th time I've gotten and officer spawn with a pith-K capital shield booster amplifier modified enhanced? It 2 will eventually become boring.

[Ninja] Actually you are correct we should get into ships and find what's fun. Sometimes I fly to nol for fun. You know the funny thing I usually make it there and back and see nobody. This was when it was still Bob's space so after the reset I, like everyone else, knew the eventual outcome. I personally knew it cause I used to fly around bob space and see at most 6 in local. Nobody scanned for me, nobody bubbled the gate, I joked with my imaginary goonie friends maybe u should pass it onto ur leaders. I'm in X and there r 0 bob. Actually they were all neutral to me and I didn't check their corps so it might have even been pets or other noobs looking around. Eventually I'd like more than just X up for random roaming gang. I'd like an X up for a retake Delve campaign. And anyone with 3 brain cells knows u'd lose.

III LightBringer
Gallente
The Treehugger Corp
None Of The Above
Posted - 2009.06.30 16:29:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Rexthor Hammerfists
Beside the risk of deploying caps being too expensive - two three years ago the mc could offer firepower in form of experienced member and expensive equipment many alliance just didnt have, which could make a big adifference when used right.
Today the skill required from an alliance pilot is to know how to jump to a cyno, activate siege and not miss the turn off siege command.
Add a ridicolous moonincome to that and individual skill makes little difference.


So, back 2 years ago it was harder to jump to the cyno, warp to the warpin and hit the siege button, shooting what ever the FC told you to.

All you need to know is how to log on to TS, Listen to orders, fit your ship according to mission plan, know basic lag mechanics and if you are a goon you will need to know the meaning of the word "everyone"...

The only people needing real skills are dictors, hictors, covops and FC's. Cannon fodder never needed a brain. Not when MC was a powerhouse and not today.

Once lag was fixed, people started to field more ships and it became a numbers game. But still, the best FC win.


CoolDBRBCool for life


Jimmy Duce
Gallente
Chaotic Tranquility
Posted - 2009.06.30 16:34:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: III LightBringer

stuff
and if you are a goon you will need to know the meaning of the word "everyone"...

CoolDBRBCool for life




See ButterDog was right the swarm is failscading quick -A- atttack now before the station every single system [yeah I said it] and become bigger and better than CVA.

Mr Blue
Caldari
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.06.30 16:46:00 - [38]
 

Edited by: Mr Blue on 30/06/2009 16:47:56
Originally by: Jimmy Duce
Originally by: III LightBringer

stuff
and if you are a goon you will need to know the meaning of the word "everyone"...

CoolDBRBCool for life




See ButterDog was right the swarm is failscading quick -A- atttack now before the station every single system [yeah I said it] and become bigger and better than CVA.


for once I accualy saw a intelligent goons reply on COAD, this must be historic..and then u start trolling away..geezRazz
U fail to graps the reality though....goons and several others here acualy got a serious point.

Jimmy Duce
Gallente
Chaotic Tranquility
Posted - 2009.06.30 16:51:00 - [39]
 

Edited by: Jimmy Duce on 30/06/2009 16:52:15
Originally by: Mr Blue
Edited by: Mr Blue on 30/06/2009 16:47:56
Originally by: Jimmy Duce
Originally by: III LightBringer

stuff
and if you are a goon you will need to know the meaning of the word "everyone"...

CoolDBRBCool for life





See ButterDog was right the swarm is failscading quick -A- atttack now before the station every single system [yeah I said it] and become bigger and better than CVA.


for once I accualy saw a intelligent goons reply on COAD, this must be historic..and then u start trolling away..geezRazz
U fail to graps the reality though....goons and several others here acualy got a serious point.



[Ninja cause I fail at forum coding]

:( But I'm in a trolling mood and I thought you guys killed Bob so that all of Eve can leave free and haz fun however they want. btw looking for group to run the fire chasim raid. You interested in Xing?

Sgt Napalm
Caldari
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2009.06.30 17:48:00 - [40]
 

The first line in the thread can easily be changed to other versions of dinosaur play styles...

Ever since ISS there has been no real neutral alliance that could open 0.0 for the greater population of EvE players.

Fun to look at in history but impossible to duplicate due to the current EvE playing style. Wink

Laechyd Eldgorn
Caldari
draketrain
Posted - 2009.06.30 18:05:00 - [41]
 

Edited by: Laechyd Eldgorn on 30/06/2009 18:05:53
No one would (generally) simply pay enough for being a mercenary. Sad story.

Free meatshield is so easy to get.

Sadly current situtation seems to be that pvp only needs to be fun not way to make isk. Go ratting go.

Kaitou Shiroi
Gallente
Dark-Rising
Posted - 2009.06.30 19:11:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Sgt Napalm

Ever since ISS there has been no real neutral alliance that could open 0.0 for the greater population of EvE players.


...Providence? I know I ganked my fair share of unaligned noobs there while blowing off steam.

Cors
Gallente
It's A Trap
It's A Trap Alliance
Posted - 2009.06.30 19:12:00 - [43]
 

There's still a place in EVE for mercs, just not as MC was at it's peak.

As folks have said, the days of a 50 man dread fleet being a hot knife cutting through the butter of an alliance is over. Not with individual alliance's fielding 200+ caps, with multiple titans.

What Mercs can do now is return to the TRUE calling of mercs. Focused fire behind enemy lines.

Hire a merc corp of 50 people that are heavy in recons, and pay them to kill any SHIP that moves in a hostile alliance's home space.

We've ALL seen some alliance that has been around for a while, weathered many pvp storms, only to fail cascade because of some cloaky recons picking off all the carebears. First the ratters are killed, then the pos fuelers are killed, then the jump freighters are killed, and so on, to the point where the target alliance can't get anything done in their space.

This is where Mercs can be useful today. Yes moon mining is where most of the isk comes from for ship replacements, but individual pilots morale is still based on their personal ability to make isk. If their wallet is low, they'll being a lower quality ship to pvp battles. They may not risk their dread in combat if they only have 200 mil isk in their wallet.

Chipping away at the morale of an alliance, especially one that is under attack by conventional cap fleets, is a sound tactic for Mercs.

Understand the limitations of a mercenary force, and the capabilities and you can STILL do a lot of damage. AND make merc work profitable.

Venomire
Amarr
GoonWaffe
SOLODRAKBANSOLODRAKBANSO
Posted - 2009.06.30 19:29:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Cors
We've ALL seen some alliance that has been around for a while, weathered many pvp storms, only to fail cascade because of some cloaky recons picking off all the carebears. First the ratters are killed, then the pos fuelers are killed, then the jump freighters are killed, and so on, to the point where the target alliance can't get anything done in their space.

People of Rise!


Roy Sad

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2009.06.30 20:11:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Cors
There's still a place in EVE for mercs, just not as MC was at it's peak.

As folks have said, the days of a 50 man dread fleet being a hot knife cutting through the butter of an alliance is over. Not with individual alliance's fielding 200+ caps, with multiple titans.

What Mercs can do now is return to the TRUE calling of mercs. Focused fire behind enemy lines.

Hire a merc corp of 50 people that are heavy in recons, and pay them to kill any SHIP that moves in a hostile alliance's home space.

We've ALL seen some alliance that has been around for a while, weathered many pvp storms, only to fail cascade because of some cloaky recons picking off all the carebears. First the ratters are killed, then the pos fuelers are killed, then the jump freighters are killed, and so on, to the point where the target alliance can't get anything done in their space.

This is where Mercs can be useful today. Yes moon mining is where most of the isk comes from for ship replacements, but individual pilots morale is still based on their personal ability to make isk. If their wallet is low, they'll being a lower quality ship to pvp battles. They may not risk their dread in combat if they only have 200 mil isk in their wallet.

Chipping away at the morale of an alliance, especially one that is under attack by conventional cap fleets, is a sound tactic for Mercs.

Understand the limitations of a mercenary force, and the capabilities and you can STILL do a lot of damage. AND make merc work profitable.



I agree actually. I think thats a good role for mercs. The op had asked about mercs that roll people's sovereignty though. But I think we all agree those days are gone.

But sure, I think a merc stealth bomber jump-bridge camping group would be pretty damned effective with the right equipment and training. That said it still woudn't be cheap. Those black ops are pretty expensive :)

Mistress Suffering
Amarr
Einherjar Rising
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2009.06.30 20:29:00 - [46]
 

Jade actually nailed the main reason back on page 1:

The assets required to attack spaceholding entities is vastly more expensive than the assets required to hold the space. That means to actually compensate for the risk, you have to spend far more than the cost of what you're actually destroying in order to destroy it.

The other real challenge for Mercenary work, is that because the money is so lackluster all your contracts need to have a great big fun component. Here's a point that all the non-Mercs may not have realized - people like to pay to have unfun things done, not fun ones - knock down this POS, camp these guys until they won't undock, block all activity in this area, etc... Generally stuff that quickly becomes tedious when your foe stops playing with you. So why would player Mercs want to waste their time playing a game to not have fun? If you're not making loads of money to allow you to have more fun later, and you're not doing something intrinsically fun, then why should you even log on to this game at all?

Offer enough money or have enjoyable enough combat opportunities and Mercs remain quite findable. But then if you want to hit an NC sized blob, you'd better have enough money to get -A- interested ;P



Ria Sotori
Caldari
Poor Old Ornery nOObs
Turdz Asshatz N Grieferz
Posted - 2009.06.30 20:31:00 - [47]
 

Mercenary work of the type the OP suggested could be done but the entity with the will and resources doesn't exist atm to pull it off . You would need a group of around 100-200 active cap pilot players that (a) are already wealthy from years of playing and (b) no longer have interest in 0.0 drama just want to do there own thing. Finding pilots like that in Eve is easy. Getting them to mesh into a group to accomplish the above without them wandering off would be next to impossible in today's game.

Merc Work outside of empire war decs in the future will probably be limited to dragoon contracts for small merc corps to bolster the defenses of an alliance in surgical strikes and harassment type raiding of enemy supply lines.

Much like other historical and fear provoking groups in Eve, The MC is a part of Eve's great history that I doubt we will see the likes of again. Today are the days of the Super NAP.

Crying or Very sad



Jimmy Duce
Gallente
Chaotic Tranquility
Posted - 2009.06.30 20:41:00 - [48]
 

Once again adding my vast experience to the thread. What's the smallest size fleet that can take down an unmanned but armed and "well" fitted large POS? [to cut down on the retorcial question and see if I can actually direct the flow of internet spaceships I refuse to answer my own question, but if you do you get a cookie and I'll contact my goonie friends and they'll get you into the swarm for only 50 mill rather than the usual 500 mill].

Aaron Mirrorsaver
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.06.30 20:49:00 - [49]
 

even tho Im pretty sure the OP is trolling...

MC did what they did because they emerged with a cap fleet at a time when no one had a cap fleet to rival them.

Thats how they steam rolled the north. In modern day eve, their is no single alliance, merc or not that can take space from another alliance. Not without multiple people being involed on both sides.

Genuinely Windypops
Gallente
The Littlest Hobos
En Garde
Posted - 2009.06.30 21:05:00 - [50]
 

Well Kia Eddz is probably the best at making up pretend 'contracts'. Mind you, he hasn't done that since he got found out lying about 3 or 4 'jobs' in a row. I've never seen a funnier burst of nerd rage than his rantings on CAOD when it was all exposed.


Eacham Graeme
Caldari
noXCorp
Session Changes
Posted - 2009.06.30 21:43:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Cors
There's still a place in EVE for mercs, just not as MC was at it's peak.

As folks have said, the days of a 50 man dread fleet being a hot knife cutting through the butter of an alliance is over. Not with individual alliance's fielding 200+ caps, with multiple titans.

What Mercs can do now is return to the TRUE calling of mercs. Focused fire behind enemy lines.

Hire a merc corp of 50 people that are heavy in recons, and pay them to kill any SHIP that moves in a hostile alliance's home space.

We've ALL seen some alliance that has been around for a while, weathered many pvp storms, only to fail cascade because of some cloaky recons picking off all the carebears. First the ratters are killed, then the pos fuelers are killed, then the jump freighters are killed, and so on, to the point where the target alliance can't get anything done in their space.

This is where Mercs can be useful today. Yes moon mining is where most of the isk comes from for ship replacements, but individual pilots morale is still based on their personal ability to make isk. If their wallet is low, they'll being a lower quality ship to pvp battles. They may not risk their dread in combat if they only have 200 mil isk in their wallet.

Chipping away at the morale of an alliance, especially one that is under attack by conventional cap fleets, is a sound tactic for Mercs.

Understand the limitations of a mercenary force, and the capabilities and you can STILL do a lot of damage. AND make merc work profitable.


Spot on...

Redefining the roles of Merc's and the work that they do is the key to the success of that same unit. This poster has identified one excellent method, there are several other roles and tasks Mercs can excel at, just have to shift your thinking a wee bit.


Order Mae
Gallente
Minute to Midnight
Initiative Mercenaries
Posted - 2009.06.30 21:54:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Garia666
contact the privateers.. for the empire work.. very effective

Yeah. They killed my alt's noob ship undocking from Jita 4-4 the other day. Who wants my stuff?

Orree
Gallente
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.06.30 22:35:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: TZeer
Edited by: TZeer on 30/06/2009 12:18:32
Originally by: Rexthor Hammerfists
Beside the risk of deploying caps being too expensive - two three years ago the mc could offer firepower in form of experienced member and expensive equipment many alliance just didnt have, which could make a big adifference when used right.
Today the skill required from an alliance pilot is to know how to jump to a cyno, activate siege and not miss the turn off siege command.
Add a ridicolous moonincome to that and individual skill makes little difference.


Just adding to this one. I guess most of us remember when MC went north and brought 4 or 5? motherships. They killed pretty much whatever that was thrown at them, before going back down south.

Fast forward: It`s not too many weeks ago that "someone" up north lost 5 or was it 4? motherships in one single engagement.




Back then, motherships were much harder to kill because you basically had to neut them down completely and bump like crazy to keep them from warping off. Now we have hictors. I know you know this, but I'm just pointing out that motherships are not now what they were before.

Titans have also changed substantially, obviously.

Let's also keep in mind that MC were not acting alone in their contract against the North. They had quite a bit of help. I'm not trying to diminish in any way the impressive accomplishment of that MC campaign. I said then it was quite a well done campaign and I still believe that to be true.

Let's just all keep in mind how completely different the game is on so many levels from the vulnerability of supercaps, to the ability of the server to handle large battles, to the number of titans in the game and what they can and can't do (remote DDs, anyone?).

As bad as it is now, it was much worse then. Remember that really bad desynch bug...that seemed to happen alot with motherships on the grid?

The game is much bigger now than it was then. I'd agree with those that say simply isn't room for a truly neutral mercenary entity with MC-like firepower to flourish without them being significant holders of R64 moons.

In a way, PL is probably the current version of what MC used to be...only PL has happily shot many of the major powers it is currently allied with (and will no doubt do so again) and MC never did.



Garreck
Gallente
Amarr Border Defense Consortium
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2009.06.30 23:05:00 - [54]
 

I should think current political (superalliances) and mechanical/logistical (risking 10s of billions in caps to take out 1 billion in tower assets) realities, combined with the nature of the recent demise of BoB triggered by* social engineering, that folks like GHSC would be in high demand as mercs. Mercs are not necessarily obsolete. Paying mercs to take on a coallition of alliances in a toe-to-toe cap battle in a lagfest is obsolete.



*I don't want to start an argument about whether or not pulling the plug on BoB was an event that could've been overcome. I'm merely illustrating a point.

Jimmy Duce
Gallente
Chaotic Tranquility
Posted - 2009.07.01 00:26:00 - [55]
 

Edited by: Jimmy Duce on 01/07/2009 01:07:00
Originally by: Garreck

*I don't want to start an argument about whether or not pulling the plug on BoB was an event that could've been overcome. I'm merely illustrating a point.

There you have it guys!!! CVA is for Bob. Watch them pull down their towers and it becomes the home of Bob. Bob the true and rightful owner of the glorious lands of Providence where fraction drops are plentiful and officer spawns are easy.

btw, please don't mark me red free ratting in CVA roxors. We had a corp op last week netted almost 200 mill in iskies. And we docked a few times so your extortion is complete.

Heathkit
Minmatar
Ars ex Discordia
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.07.01 02:30:00 - [56]
 

The problem is POS warfare sucks. I'd much rather mine or rat than shoot POS all day for my isk.

Slinktress
Gallente
Evolution
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.07.01 03:23:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: SATAN
What can any merc organization do against 1/2 of eve? Or the other 1/2 of eve?

Lets just say for instance someone put together an even better MC with 5x the old NC capability it would still get steam rolled by NC+Goons+PL+who ever else they have blue. Or lets say the same new and improved MC tries to attack and take space in the south where they get to fight AAA+SE+Coven+Atlas+ROL+etc...

On a side note you speak of alliances that don't deserve the space they live in. You may want to look in the mirror, because without PL you would be in Jita.


Note: When SATAN speaks in EVE, it's like "GOD" has spoken. ^^

I do wish the best to Noir. though; really good people to do business with.

Siicko
Amarr
EdgeGamers
Situation: Normal
Posted - 2009.07.01 03:35:00 - [58]
 

The two alliances that are around that give that Merc power house feel imo is Tri and PL. I do not bother to get involved with everything they are up to but from what I've seen and what I feel they are capable of, my opinion leans toward those two alliances. I'd actually like to see PL push some people around on the map some more. The fact that I heard PL threatened to reset an alliance if they pulled out of the south and that alliance stayed, made me LOL no matter if it were rumor or truth. Gotta love the power one can obtain. Here's to watching power shift as time goes on!

Alekseyev Karrde
Gallente
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2009.07.01 04:34:00 - [59]
 

It's not one reason; a lot of above posters have touched on the contributing factors. Any mercs are so far behind the supercap curve that it's unlikly sov-overturning units are likly to emerge unless mechanics change a lot (which they always could).

Mean time, the best bets for anti-0.0 alliance merc operations are the empire harassment war, the war/near-0.0 entry point camp, and the deep 0.0 asset denial. Mercs can be both extremely effective and extremely COST effective in that capacity. Sure you could buy a cap ship or two, but tbh if you go with a really solid unit (the only kind you should think about giving such sums of money too) you'll get more value out of the mercs.

128th ABC123
Caldari
Lucky Clover Investments
Posted - 2009.07.01 08:01:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Vile rat
Well the problem starts when "mercenaries" attempt to be 0.0 space holders as well.

Even worse when they have a subservient relationship with a major power bloc and only pay lip service to neutrality.


That wasn't an answer to his question, that was merely goon drivel.


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