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Torothin
Amarr
Phathcom Enterprises
Posted - 2009.06.30 00:36:00 - [1]
 

Ever since MC there has been no real powerblock mercenary alliance that could steamroll alliances to take sov for a price. I thought that having MC around was really good for eve and was an amazing entity to have in the game. I am surprised that no-one has stepped up. What you have now is several alliances that have emerged in the last year due to recruiting corps in just for the numbers game. I know there is KIA alliance but I'm not sure what their deal is.

Half of these alliances have no business having the space they currently reside in. In my opinion eve misses that X-factor that could be hired to take space for the right price. MC was such a great entity to have around and also made things very interesting. I am not an MC fan and had the priveledge and puishment of flying with them during the tortuga ordeal. With BOB's demise what better time than now for a few powerblock corps to step up to the plate. Who will it be??? Thoughts??

Vile rat
Amarr
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.06.30 00:40:00 - [2]
 

Well the problem starts when "mercenaries" attempt to be 0.0 space holders as well.

Even worse when they have a subservient relationship with a major power bloc and only pay lip service to neutrality.

Mynas Atoch
Caldari
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.06.30 00:52:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Mynas Atoch on 30/06/2009 00:52:50
LOL .. tell Seleene ... wonder what happened to her/him :p

Seriously though .. the M part of the MC was a light roleplay to give the guys some focus to their game content. The isk involved was trivial .. token payments mostly. Rarely did it cover the cap fuel, nevermind the risk.

MC's wealth, like many of the original EVE players, came from BPO collections in private hands. MC failed to adjust to the need for isk trees and the need to control territory that went with them (the opportunities were there - we never failed to miss them) - Seleene's hatred for moon goo was a thing of legend (strangely, there is no moon goo in W-Space).

Now when everyone can fly a dread, who needs mercs with a cap fleet you could (then) only dream of. With no way of competing with the wealth of the territorial powers, no matter how mediocre, the game just doesn't have a space for landless mercenaries with heavy weapons.

Agiosgeogios
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2009.06.30 01:08:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Vile rat
Well the problem starts when "mercenaries" attempt to be 0.0 space holders as well.

Even worse when they have a subservient relationship with a major power bloc and only pay lip service to neutrality.


Well that was the problem with the MC in specific but in general its the change in sov mechanic with jammers and bridges that killed capital guerilla mercenary action. Merceneraies are there to overpower the enemy, kill, and gtfo. They arent there for a prolongued conflict or ment to bring 300 man fleets. Jammers and bridges kinda put a clog in that wheel.

To bad tho because i enjoyed the MC and entities like Battle Angels and what they did to influence wars.

Sirius A
Caldari
StarFleet Enterprises
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2009.06.30 01:35:00 - [5]
 

I think Sons of Tangra should step up and be this group you describe.

Alekseyev Karrde
Gallente
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2009.06.30 01:38:00 - [6]
 

Workin on it.

dastommy79
Caldari
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas.
Posted - 2009.06.30 01:45:00 - [7]
 

what about lolkia?

true mercs

Sage Eveo
Gallente
Trojan Trolls
Controlled Chaos
Posted - 2009.06.30 03:10:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Sage Eveo on 30/06/2009 03:11:24
Originally by: Torothin
Ever since MC there has been no real powerblock mercenary alliance that could steamroll alliances to take sov for a price... Who will it be???


The Noir. boys should branch out.

Fat Ducker
Amarr
Lucky Hydra Corp
Posted - 2009.06.30 03:29:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Vile rat
Well the problem starts when "mercenaries" attempt to be 0.0 space holders as well.

Even worse when they have a subservient relationship with a major power bloc and only pay lip service to neutrality.
Iput this into Babelfish and it came out:

Quote:
LOLKIA


Originally by: Mynas Atoch
Edited by: Mynas Atoch on 30/06/2009 00:52:50
LOL .. tell Seleene ... wonder what happened to her/him :p


He's a Dev now.

Constantinee
Caldari
Nex Exercitus
Raiden.
Posted - 2009.06.30 03:38:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Mynas Atoch
Edited by: Mynas Atoch on 30/06/2009 00:52:50
LOL .. tell Seleene ... wonder what happened to her/him :p

Seriously though .. the M part of the MC was a light roleplay to give the guys some focus to their game content. The isk involved was trivial .. token payments mostly. Rarely did it cover the cap fuel, nevermind the risk.

MC's wealth, like many of the original EVE players, came from BPO collections in private hands. MC failed to adjust to the need for isk trees and the need to control territory that went with them (the opportunities were there - we never failed to miss them) - Seleene's hatred for moon goo was a thing of legend (strangely, there is no moon goo in W-Space).

Now when everyone can fly a dread, who needs mercs with a cap fleet you could (then) only dream of. With no way of competing with the wealth of the territorial powers, no matter how mediocre, the game just doesn't have a space for landless mercenaries with heavy weapons.


I think the attempt to control the alliance by a couple people (one in particular) had alot to do with some of the crap your talking. Dosent matter anyway.

We all still blame you...Wink

Tyrrax Thorrk
Amarr
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.06.30 04:33:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Mynas Atoch
LOL .. tell Seleene ... wonder what happened to her/him :p



Working for CCP - rebalancing supercaps i hear

weixing
Amarr
Slippery Penguin
Posted - 2009.06.30 04:43:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Mynas Atoch
Edited by: Mynas Atoch on 30/06/2009 00:52:50
LOL .. tell Seleene ... wonder what happened to her/him :p

Seriously though .. the M part of the MC was a light roleplay to give the guys some focus to their game content. The isk involved was trivial .. token payments mostly. Rarely did it cover the cap fuel, nevermind the risk.

MC's wealth, like many of the original EVE players, came from BPO collections in private hands. MC failed to adjust to the need for isk trees and the need to control territory that went with them (the opportunities were there - we never failed to miss them) - Seleene's hatred for moon goo was a thing of legend (strangely, there is no moon goo in W-Space).

Now when everyone can fly a dread, who needs mercs with a cap fleet you could (then) only dream of. With no way of competing with the wealth of the territorial powers, no matter how mediocre, the game just doesn't have a space for landless mercenaries with heavy weapons.


The whole problem with MC was when they took space and thought that isk was important. There was a time when MC would attack entities to cause damage not to conquer. A mercenary alliance working on the model of pre-space/pre-cap MC(i.e. running large fleets of sub caps) would still be a very viable and successful merc outfit today. Your model of MC is why it failed and in essence wasn't anything different than any other alliance.

SATAN
Amarr
BURN EDEN
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2009.06.30 05:19:00 - [13]
 

What can any merc organization do against 1/2 of eve? Or the other 1/2 of eve?

Lets just say for instance someone put together an even better MC with 5x the old NC capability it would still get steam rolled by NC+Goons+PL+who ever else they have blue. Or lets say the same new and improved MC tries to attack and take space in the south where they get to fight AAA+SE+Coven+Atlas+ROL+etc...

On a side note you speak of alliances that don't deserve the space they live in. You may want to look in the mirror, because without PL you would be in Jita.

Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
Posted - 2009.06.30 05:26:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: SATAN
What can any merc organization do against 1/2 of eve? Or the other 1/2 of eve?


Well, it is always good if you can bring another 200 dreads to the field without worrying that they are yours.

The problem for such a merc corp/ally would be the lack of customers. There are just not enough independent conflicts in Eve, they are all napped together.

Shardrael
Caldari
The Fimbriani
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2009.06.30 06:28:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk
Originally by: Mynas Atoch
LOL .. tell Seleene ... wonder what happened to her/him :p



Working for CCP - rebalancing supercaps i hear



wtb mom superweapon kthx

Tikka
Caldari
Gemeinschaft interstellarer Soeldner
Posted - 2009.06.30 06:36:00 - [16]
 

the problem is, no one could pay for the risk of using 200 Merc Caps.

As long as Sov ist like it is now and Titans are so many and powerful to kill a sub fleet, there will be no way for a Merc corp in 0.0. The needed power and the risk vs reward is out of limits right now.

Garia666
Amarr
T.H.U.G L.I.F.E
Xenon-Empire
Posted - 2009.06.30 06:50:00 - [17]
 

contact the privateers.. for the empire work.. very effective

Danton Marcellus
Gallente
Nebula Rasa Holdings
Nebula Rasa
Posted - 2009.06.30 09:33:00 - [18]
 

I was under the impression that was what Triumvirate did. I mean they're great at taking space then when asked to hold it they promptly up and disbands.

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2009.06.30 11:50:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Torothin
Ever since MC there has been no real powerblock mercenary alliance that could steamroll alliances to take sov for a price. I thought that having MC around was really good for eve and was an amazing entity to have in the game. I am surprised that no-one has stepped up. What you have now is several alliances that have emerged in the last year due to recruiting corps in just for the numbers game. I know there is KIA alliance but I'm not sure what their deal is.

Half of these alliances have no business having the space they currently reside in. In my opinion eve misses that X-factor that could be hired to take space for the right price. MC was such a great entity to have around and also made things very interesting. I am not an MC fan and had the priveledge and puishment of flying with them during the tortuga ordeal. With BOB's demise what better time than now for a few powerblock corps to step up to the plate. Who will it be??? Thoughts??



Its economics really. It takes one player and a billion isk to throw up a deathstar POS to claim sov. It takes 30 players and 40billion worth of investment on the field to take it down in a reasonable amount of time. Since while you are taking down the POS your 40billion isk is in harms way and inviting a hotdrop its quite definitely a high risk activity and needs to be billed at those rates.

You either need a client prepared to pay appropriate danger money or to guarentee the replacement of hulls lost in the action. Either which way you are looking at charging far more than the cost of the towers you are taking out as your contract fee. And the problem is - who has that kind of money to throw at mercenaries? And if you do have enough money to throw at mercenaries (and are interested in taking or breaking sovereignty) why didn't you just fund your own alliance and hire people to do the job internally?

Mercs are irrelevent in 0.0 warfare really. They can only be bought with space and that turns them into space-holders that are no longer independent operators. (see merc coalition).

But otherwise it simply doesn't make economic sense to hire out a capital group costing tens of billions to remove single billion assets for chicken-feed rates.

Of course you have some rich kids that like to play at being mercs (while secretly supping riches from the local spaceholders) but thats more a hobby than a profession.




Rexthor Hammerfists
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.06.30 12:04:00 - [20]
 

Beside the risk of deploying caps being too expensive - two three years ago the mc could offer firepower in form of experienced member and expensive equipment many alliance just didnt have, which could make a big adifference when used right.
Today the skill required from an alliance pilot is to know how to jump to a cyno, activate siege and not miss the turn off siege command.
Add a ridicolous moonincome to that and individual skill makes little difference.

Venomire
Amarr
GoonWaffe
SOLODRAKBANSOLODRAKBANSO
Posted - 2009.06.30 12:11:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Rexthor Hammerfists
Beside the risk of deploying caps being too expensive - two three years ago the mc could offer firepower in form of experienced member and expensive equipment many alliance just didnt have, which could make a big adifference when used right.

Three years ago there were fewer people that invested the time to train the skill prerequisites for capital ships.
Quote:
Today the skill required from an alliance pilot is to know how to jump to a cyno, activate siege and not miss the turn off siege command.

That's all that was needed to be known then, as well. Nothing has changed at all in that regard.
Quote:
Add a ridicolous moonincome to that and individual skill makes little difference.

Individual skill has never made a difference in sov. warfare.

The days of the capital heavy mercenary alliance were numbered as soon as the capital skillbooks (and the means to produce capitals) were seeded on TQ.

TZeer
Caldari
BURN EDEN
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2009.06.30 12:12:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: TZeer on 30/06/2009 12:18:32
Originally by: Rexthor Hammerfists
Beside the risk of deploying caps being too expensive - two three years ago the mc could offer firepower in form of experienced member and expensive equipment many alliance just didnt have, which could make a big adifference when used right.
Today the skill required from an alliance pilot is to know how to jump to a cyno, activate siege and not miss the turn off siege command.
Add a ridicolous moonincome to that and individual skill makes little difference.


Just adding to this one. I guess most of us remember when MC went north and brought 4 or 5? motherships. They killed pretty much whatever that was thrown at them, before going back down south.

Fast forward: It`s not too many weeks ago that "someone" up north lost 5 or was it 4? motherships in one single engagement.


Quote:
The days of the capital heavy mercenary alliance were numbered as soon as the capital skillbooks (and the means to produce capitals) were seeded on TQ.


Wait, what?

There was no capital heavy mercenary before the stuff got seeded on TQ. The main difference was that not many allainces saw the need for massive capfleets. And when suddenly a well organised group could put close 100% of their members in cap ships and wreck havoc, the more carebearish alliances got a wakeup call.
They where lagging behind, but only for so long.

Agiosgeogios
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2009.06.30 12:18:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Jade Constantine

Its economics really. It takes one player and a billion isk to throw up a deathstar POS to claim sov. It takes 30 players and 40billion worth of investment on the field to take it down in a reasonable amount of time.



Unless you go all faction your numbers are completely wrong and its more a numbers (players) game than a isk game. People tend to not care about isk once they reach a personally set comfort level. Risk vs. reward in 0.0 warfare is usually completely skewed and only really applies to empire folk or space claimers.

Venomire
Amarr
GoonWaffe
SOLODRAKBANSOLODRAKBANSO
Posted - 2009.06.30 12:25:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: TZeer
Wait, what?

There was no capital heavy mercenary before the stuff got seeded on TQ. The main difference was that not many allainces saw the need for massive capfleets. And when suddenly a well organised group could put close 100% of their members in cap ships and wreck havoc, the more carebearish alliances got a wakeup call.
They where lagging behind, but only for so long.

Duh.

Like I said, that **** was dead when it started. Only I used more words.

Rexthor Hammerfists
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.06.30 13:00:00 - [25]
 

Quote:
Three years ago there were fewer people that invested the time to train the skill prerequisites for capital ships.


I think, altho its just speculation ofc, it was more a case of fewer ppl able to make the isk for it. It took some knowledge (or some grinding reslilence) to get the 400m carrierskill and the 1.5b for the ship,
that was the bottleneck back then.

Quote:

Individual skill has never made a difference in sov. warfare.


I disagree, a few years back the numbers involved in sov fights were alot smaller, a couple of proper fitted antisupport could safe, good tacklers could doom fleets.

Surviving and dying in a fleetfight had a much bigger consequence as you had to make money to get back in the fight, unlike today sending a mail to the guy that handles reimbursement through moon income, its where many alliance crubmled as inexperience got members killed who with time didnt bother to work for replacements anymore.

This prolly started to 8slowly) change with invention and later the moonincome. Now its just a matter of logistics.

Taram Caldar
Caldari
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
Warped Aggression
Posted - 2009.06.30 13:21:00 - [26]
 

TBH, in response to the OP...

The reason there isn't a 'new MC' is pretty basic.
Most pilots who want to be mercs want nothing to do with sov warfare.

It really is just that simple. With SOV working the way it does now there's really no incentive to working merc work at the sov level. It's boring, it's tedious, the risk-to-reward ratio just isn't worth it. Even MC was thinking about moving out of 0.0 and going 'back to basics' for merc work before Tortuga.

Even if that weren't true:
The days where a merc force could field more caps than a sov-holding alliance are pretty much over. Add to that the giant nap-trains in 0.0 now and it's just not feasible for a merc unit to pull what MC did in the north to D2. Especially not with Cyno Jammers combined with Jump Bridges combined with napfests that can field titans to nuke any fleet stupid enough to make a run at a cyno jammer. Even back then had D2 not torched it's relationships with, well, EVERYONE in the north they'd probably still be there.

No, the days of merc outfits that can smash up people's sov is over. Because as soon as you get those kinds of numbers you're gonna wind up taking sov yourself just so you can afford to field the caps necessary to do so. And once you hold sov yourself you can kiss merc work goodbye because defending your space then trumps any contract. It's not like you can tell an employer 'sorry dude we have to forefeit your work in order to go defend our space, sorry that screws up your attack plan'.

People enjoy bashing the fact that MC made arrangements with BOB to hold their space in Period Basis but, really, that's the only way that MC could still be a merc outfit. As long as BOB stayed strong MC didn't have to defend their space, which allowed them to be mercenaries. If BoB hadn't been covering MC's assets for the most part MC would not have been able to remain a merc force, however biased, due to having to defend their space constantly. And even with that MC had to slowly morph from an assault group that smashed enemies to more of a 'leadership' group that organized combat and led allied fleets rather than doing all the work themselves. Simply because they couldn't afford to play attrition wars against large alliances. This is even more true today than then for all the reasons I went into above.

So, in short, the days when a merc outfit could do those kinds of things are really over. Mercs can still dramatically impact battlefields just not in the way that older players remember. Mercs take a more specialized role now rather than 'in your face smashing your towers' kind of thing.

That's just my perspective.

Wotlankor
Caldari
Black Aces
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2009.06.30 13:52:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Taram Caldar
Lotsa stuff...


That is one of the best posts Ive seen on CAOD in a long time.

Tortuga was an attempt to get around the problem of SOV holding.
If enough Merc outfits got together some would stay back and defend the space while others worked.
Only in Period Basis would there be a NAP. Outside one could take contracts vs eachother.

It ultimately did not prove fruitfull but the "vision" was not bad whatever the winners who write history claims.

Jimmy Duce
Gallente
Chaotic Tranquility
Posted - 2009.06.30 15:11:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Alekseyev Karrde
Workin on it.

Since I've flown with you guys once and man that was one of my most pofessional yet fun pvp op I've ever been at I 2 wish there was an X factor esp since MC died before I even knew there was an Eve. All the best. But if/when u failcade can I haz ur isk? actually maybe I should say stuff but WE.

Jimmy Duce
Gallente
Chaotic Tranquility
Posted - 2009.06.30 15:14:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: SATAN
What can any merc organization do against 1/2 of eve? Or the other 1/2 of eve?

Lets just say for instance someone put together an even better MC with 5x the old NC capability it would still get steam rolled by NC+Goons+PL+who ever else they have blue. Or lets say the same new and improved MC tries to attack and take space in the south where they get to fight AAA+SE+Coven+Atlas+ROL+etc...

On a side note you speak of alliances that don't deserve the space they live in. You may want to look in the mirror, because without PL you would be in Jita.


Which is y they don't take space. Space holding mercs die. Sure staging POSes etc, but getting into the Sov war crap and having to defend and not simply attack = fail. Max damage [see what I did there] works if you have no space u need to watch and defend.

Jimmy Duce
Gallente
Chaotic Tranquility
Posted - 2009.06.30 15:15:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Tikka
the problem is, no one could pay for the risk of using 200 Merc Caps.

As long as Sov ist like it is now and Titans are so many and powerful to kill a sub fleet, there will be no way for a Merc corp in 0.0. The needed power and the risk vs reward is out of limits right now.


mhhh fun? sand box? rifter sucide super caps?


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