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Miranda Ricsko
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2009.06.27 06:59:00 - [31]
 

Has nothing to do with "carebears" (hate that term, so f'ing stupid), it's just a discussion on how to make idiot tactics have some kind of consequence for those that undertake them. Not really any skill or consequence for jumping a Hulk in highsec with a BS. If it weren't for insurance then there'd be no reason to at all except just wanting to gank, which is the only reason there should be.

Future Mutant
Republic Military School
Posted - 2009.06.27 07:15:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Krylon Rhae

That said, I do not believe stopping the insurance payout 100% to someone zapped by concord is a good idea. I would rather see a scalable hit to their insurance payout so that their free wheeling ganking can be mitigated by sector status.

For instance, the insurance payout could be multiplied by the system security status to reduce the payout in such a way that their insurance is reduced by 90% in a .9 system and 50% in a .5 system.


If i have to live with crappy insurance for a t2 ship then miners need to learn to live with their crappy insurance for their t2 ships. Just because they dont know how to fit a tank to their t2 miner doesnt mean my t1 ship should get less insurance. We already deal with to many restrictions already. Concord responds almost instantly in a .5 system- their damage is incredibly high. Security standings go all the way down to -10 but only up to +5. Everything about hi sec game mechanics protects ships from pirates- it doesnt need to be buffed further.
The main problem as i see it is the t2 miners- ie hulk- are fit for mining and only mining. Seriously would it kill them to fit a tank?
Adapt or Die- i know miners can do the latter now try the former.

Kurfin
Amarr
Posted - 2009.06.27 07:37:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Future Mutant
This topic started off well- hulks were going splat and plenty of lol's were had by all....
Then the unimaginative came in with their O M G they r killing our ships! How can that be fair? NERF NERF NERF NERF

Heres a tip- you dont like losing your ship learn to fit a tank already. Learn a skill not ore related. I would suggest one of the shield variety. Theyre called extenders get some.


The trouble is that even when you have the skills you can't fit much tank to a hulk. You don't have the grid or CPU for medium extenders, you can only fit small which don't bring much extra HP to the party. Fire up EFT and have a go at fitting one. I think the big problem is that the Exhumers are just too delicate. They are pretty much defenceless against bigger than a frigate. They need more grid, more CPU, and either more base HP or more mids. Throw in +2 warp strength too and you just might get some out in lowsec.

And on the subject of risk, where is the gankers risk? Their ships plus fittings are nearly covered by insurance, so the loss of their ship is only pocket change. If there is risk to the miners of losing a mostly uninsurable 100 mill ship plus fittings, where is the corresponding risk to the gankers?

Removing the insurance payout from concorded ships would help. As for the newbies who may accidentally get concorded, just provide better documentation for them as to what is a concordable offence then if they get concorded it's their own stupid fault.


RedSplat
Posted - 2009.06.27 07:45:00 - [34]
 


BackAlley Butch
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2009.06.27 08:06:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Future Mutant
This topic started off well- hulks were going splat and plenty of lol's were had by all....
Then the unimaginative came in with their O M G they r killing our ships! How can that be fair? NERF NERF NERF NERF

Heres a tip- you dont like losing your ship learn to fit a tank already. Learn a skill not ore related. I would suggest one of the shield variety. Theyre called extenders get some.


Awesome job with (lack of) reading comprehension. :) Keep up the good work!!

Albert O'Balsam
Posted - 2009.06.27 08:35:00 - [36]
 

The topic started well but soon devolved into a slanging match. Changing insurance payouts could work well enough but in realitly all that need to be done is change mining ships so they have the ability to tank.

It's all well and good the gankers glibly saying that the miners need to learn how to tank their ships but I am pretty sure it is simply not possible to tank a hulk to withstand a battleship attack for long enough for concord to intervene. In my mind that is simply a broken game mechanic, but I doubt that CCP agree with my views - lol

Simply Human
Posted - 2009.06.27 09:00:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Future Mutant
Just because they dont know how to fit a tank to their t2 miner doesnt mean my t1 ship should get less insurance.

Since people have said it's not possible to fit a hulk to stop a BS from ganking them could you please post a fitting that would stop that. They wouldn't be able to complain then.

Kurfin
Amarr
Posted - 2009.06.27 09:14:00 - [38]
 

The great thing about Eve versus other MMOs is that there are so many things you can do and make a living out of. You can PvE, PVP, mine, manufacture, trade, plus probably some other things I've forgotten about. It's a sandbox game, probably the greatest example of one, you play it how you want to.

All the activities are dependant on each other, the game would fall apart if one of them fell out of favour and very few player participated, benefiting no one. In this case of industrialist vs PvP; if the PvPers get the loads of easy hulk kills they want, discouraging players from mining the supply of minerals drops. Drop in supply leads to an increase in price, which will lead to more expensive ships and modules causing the PvPers to whine. On the flip side a healthy level of PvPing keeps demand for ships and modules high, along with their price, so nerfing PvP would crash ship, module and ore prices causing the industrialists to whine. It's a balance.

Inappropriate quote removed. Zymurgist

Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
Black Sun Alliance
Posted - 2009.06.27 10:33:00 - [39]
 

Edited by: Barbara Nichole on 27/06/2009 10:37:46


Hulk Ganking? I thought this is what you meant...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndWUlntJ58U


Matthew
Caldari
BloodStar Technologies
Posted - 2009.06.27 11:03:00 - [40]
 

Now, first let me say that I accept suicide ganking in high-sec should be possible. However, there are two very different types of ganking, which I have very differing views on:

1) Gank for profit - This is a perfectly legitimate part of the risk vs reward balance of high-sec. In fact, I'd go as far as to say it's an essential part, for one very good reason. Optimizing your performance in high-sec almost inevitably makes you more vulnerable to suicide ganking for profit. Whether it's expanding your cargo rather than your HP, making your mission-running ship a juicy faction-fitted target etc, increased risk of getting ganked is a part of the balance.

2) Gank for fun - This is the element I view as being outside the risk vs reward balance, because the ganker is not looking for a conventional reward, and there is limited scope for the victim to discourage someone who really wants to gank them. I would like to see this element discouraged by the game mechanics as far as possible.

However, the problem is that what discourages one, discourages the other. Making it harder to gank for fun invariably means increasing the punishments for ganking. Which invariably means increasing the cost (either in isk or time) imposed on the gank-for-profit case, which in turn reduces the gank-vulnerability risk of high-sec residents.

For this reason, I think we have to be very careful with wholesale changes such as removing insurance. Instead, I think we need to look at individual ganking scenarios on their own merits, and balance those individual cases accordingly.

The issue of mining barges in general (not just the hulk) has been one I've always felt was a little out of whack, given the cost of ganking them vs the potential loot drop. Even a vanilla Tech 1 fitting of the tier-3 barges are guaranteed to be packing 4mill worth of strip miner I's, and given Claire Bear's figure of 6.5mill net cost for a sure ganking, even the absolute worst case for the ganker is approaching break-even. Which means that there's a balance issue there regardless of whether you're considering gank-for-profit or gank-for-fun.

Now, I do agree that ganking a barge stacked with Modulated Strip Miner IIs, faction shield boosters and zero tank should be of at least passing interest to the gank-for-profit crowd.

However, ganking a barge that has sacrificed yield to ram on the best tank possible (note that in this case "best tank" would exclude faction modules as the potential loot reward they offer would likely outweigh the increased tank they offer), should incur a cost more significant than it does now.

The question is how to do it. There seem to be two general trains of thought on this:

1) Nerf insurance payouts/increase sec status penalty/generally nerf the ganker - While it would fix this case, it would break all the other gank cases that are currently fairly well balanced.

2) Boost the barges - I think this option has more potential, but it very much depends on the proposed boost. Boosting the base stats of the barge will increase it's gank-resistance in all cases. You can't go too far with this, otherwise you protect the tech2strip-factionfitted-notank case too much. I think there is scope for a minor tweak upwards in the barge base stats, however the majority of the tanking boost needs to come from the modules it can fit - hence opening up the difference between the highyield-notank and lowyield-hightank fitting options.

Matthew
Caldari
BloodStar Technologies
Posted - 2009.06.27 11:06:00 - [41]
 

Because it's that difference that is key. Gank viability moves in discrete steps - do you need a cruiser? do you need a battlecruiser? do you need a battleship? do you need 2 battleships? etc If an untanked barge requires 0.7 battleships and a fully tanked barge requires 0.9 battleships, then fitting a tank on the barge is absolutely irrelevant to discouraging the gank, and tanks will not be fitted because they offer no real benefit for the yield they sacrifice, not because they are "silly carebears who don't know how to fit a ship"

If however the fully tanked barge requires 1.5 battleships to gank, then fitting the tank becomes significant, and there is then a genuine risk vs reward decision to be made by the barge pilot.

Of course, what form this tank takes is also important - clearly to be effective against a gank it has to be a HP buffer. However it has to be done in such a way that does not give them too powerful a sustained tank.

Personally, for barges, I would be inclined to go with a structure buffer tank, for a couple of reasons:

1) There's only two modules that really boost structure - Damage Control and Reinforced Bulkheads. Both of these are low-slot modules, so they compete with the mining laser upgrade, hence forcing a compromise between extra yield or extra tank.

2) The Damage Control is a perfect module for generating a significant difference between the tanked and untanked case. You'd struggle to generate an equivalent difference using either shield or armor modules without having to give the barge so much CPU and Grid headroom that you could make ridiculous untanked fittings. It also means that you could add a specific balancing bonus/penalty to the barge for this one module, should the default damage control stats not be ideal for this ship.

3) Although relying on the damage control is a resistance bonus, which increases the effectiveness of active tanking, structure repair modules are in no way competitive with their shield or armor alternatives, either in terms of HP/sec or HP/cap, even with the damage control. Hence structure is a good choice for granting a good HP buffer without boosting active tanking.

Elemental Dark
Posted - 2009.06.27 12:21:00 - [42]
 

Wow , I must admit that I really didnt expect this much disscusion to come from my simple little Question ! Just thought to check in and see if there were any replys .

Carry on and lets see if ccp do implement any sort of changes in the future for us CareBears !Laughing

ED

Hithero Wolf
Caldari
Polaris Rising
Strip Mining Club
Posted - 2009.06.27 13:03:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: corestwo
I know the guy who ganked you. Suffice it to say, more will come...and not just from him.



Jihad is coming. Cool


A goon tired to kill my totaly unprotected mackinaw last night. Concord made swift work of his Armageddon, i lived.

How bob lost to you f beyond me, the incompetence among your members are astonishing.


Failing to gank a mackinaw...Rolling Eyes

Smokin' Dragon
Astroforge Industries
4U Holdings Inc
Posted - 2009.06.27 14:28:00 - [44]
 

best tank i can currently fit to my hulk.... (no faction mods or rigs used)

[Hulk, New Setup 1]
Micro Auxiliary Power Core I
Micro Auxiliary Power Core I

Medium C5-L Emergency Shield Overload I
Medium Shield Extender II
Magnetic Scattering Amplifier II
Heat Dissipation Amplifier II

Strip Miner I
Strip Miner I
Strip Miner I

[empty rig slot]
[empty rig slot]

Mining Drone I x5

this comes out at the following

EHP:14211
Shields HP: 3083 (not including boost)

defence: 97 sust / 129 for 1m 12s

ok, all you gankers who are truly intersted in debating:
if i have a sustained def of 129 for 1 min (more than enough for concord response) and 14k EHP, how many BS's approx will it take to kill me?

if we assume 600dps per BS

20 seconds x 600 = 12000 damage = fail (but im in structure)

its enough to stop most battleships that are solo ganking, and will certainly tank a solo BC

alternatively you can try to fit a giant FO armour plate (but im not an armour tanker)


Frobos
Weird Cat Research
Zombie Alliance
Posted - 2009.06.27 16:26:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: corestwo
...Jihad is coming. Cool


Originally by: Hithero Wolf

A goon tired to kill my totaly unprotected mackinaw last night...


So, whatever happened to Jihadswarm?!?

Last I seen it was barely struggling to keep a killboard populated just after the changes to sec status loss for hisec aggro last year. Now, the domain name looks expired and everything. I must say it was enjoyable watching you insta pop an ice macro. Kinda broke up the monotony!

To me the title of the thread, Jihadswarm, whatever you want to call it is the same. People playing the game as it was intended. I have responded this time around in the exact same way as the last iteration of Hulk exterminating in hisec......first, take some of the profits from doing all that mining and buy a second Hulk. Fit it out and just keep it in dock. For the most part, a Hulk will always be valued to someone somewhere so if anything, think of it as an investment. EvE inflation seems alive and kicking. And regarding the whole cost issue with this subject, I have saved up and spent stupid amounts of money just to get drunk and do a Clint Eastwood gauntlet run into low/null sec to see how long I would last before someone in a t1 frig costing one fifth the amount pwns me. So how much it costs someone to shoot at you is almost irrelevant cause you have no idea where they got their ship. Stole it. Given to them by an alliance or simply played for ISK for a few days and built/bought their own. I personally feel if you have any ship that takes you longer than 2-3 weeks to buy, build or acquire, then perhaps you need to find another profession, a different ship or simply don't freak out if you get it blown up just because you didn't want to or because you thought that day was a good day to do a bunch of AFK mining.

Second, If I have a hauler/orca or someone flying CAP for me, I try to have them fit a remote shield transfer mod. Even a cheapo tech 1 transfer can be run for a few seconds from a good number of different types of ships. This alone can be a deal breaker for even multiple gankers as a shield xfer cycles quicker than an armor rep and means they gotta throw x2 or x3 more volleys to get the job done. And from what it sounds, most only have one or maybe two volleys of weapons before getting concordoken. The types of off-beat tactics that are being used by all the bad people can be applied to you as well. Imagine the look on someone's face when they see an Iteron V light up two shield xfers on a Hulk as they are in the middle of a target lock. I imagine it would be about as shocking (pun intended) as a Hulk pilot seeing a couple flashes of light before being in their pod.

So, depending on where you mine, this game is all a roll of the dice. I played right through a number of months of the GS Jihadswarm with only once even seeing a roaming suicide gang and they didn't even go for my ship out of the lot. If you see them every time you undock, then move somewhere else. Another suggestion is to set your personal standing for anyone or corp you know is ganking to -5 so to see the red sign in local and all that. Then deal with the fact it doesn't matter if you run missions, do PVP, or even mine, everyone risks losing whatever ship you click undock with at anytime and just about anywhere.

I know it's easy to say to yourself you understand that last statement. But you really have to treat it as gospel. The title of this game should be "Get Blown Up -- EVE Online." If it's not someone you don't know, then it's some bored corpmate who decided to get at least one killboard post that day. The point being, it's just a ship, get over it. Have a laugh in local and go get a pint while you get in another ship. Rinse and repeat.

Future Mutant
Republic Military School
Posted - 2009.06.27 18:23:00 - [46]
 

Let me clear up a few misconceptions-
I never said that you must "play the game my way"
If you are playing the game- PLAY THE GAME
If you fly a t2 expensive ship- realize that you are flying a mostly uninsurable ship. Im sorry if game mechanics prevent you from doing whatever you want, how you want, when you want.
The answer to game mechanics is to ADAPT. Instead i see endless forum posts about how its not fair.

Tesal
Posted - 2009.06.27 18:33:00 - [47]
 

Edited by: Tesal on 27/06/2009 18:43:06
Originally by: Future Mutant
The main problem as i see it is the t2 miners- ie hulk- are fit for mining and only mining. Seriously would it kill them to fit a tank?
Adapt or Die- i know miners can do the latter now try the former.


The audacity of your wit and keen intellect is beyond compare. I salute you sir for this amazing post.

*edit
I however need to learn how to spell.

Miranda Ricsko
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2009.06.27 18:40:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Future Mutant
Let me clear up a few misconceptions-
I never said that you must "play the game my way"
If you are playing the game- PLAY THE GAME
If you fly a t2 expensive ship- realize that you are flying a mostly uninsurable ship. Im sorry if game mechanics prevent you from doing whatever you want, how you want, when you want.
The answer to game mechanics is to ADAPT. Instead i see endless forum posts about how its not fair.


The discussion was how there's basically zero risk for griefers and no good way to adapt to the ganking with the way Exhumers currently operate. There should always be risk no matter what you're doing, and steps to take to try and alleviate said risks. Therefore something in this situation needs to change on both sides.

Future Mutant
Republic Military School
Posted - 2009.06.27 21:19:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Miranda Ricsko

The discussion was how there's basically zero risk for griefers and no good way to adapt to the ganking with the way Exhumers currently operate. There should always be risk no matter what you're doing, and steps to take to try and alleviate said risks. Therefore something in this situation needs to change on both sides.


Suicide gankers have zero risk? THEY LOSE THEIR SHIP! how much more risk do you want? The fact that they use a t1 insurable ship and miners use a t2 ship is besides the point. No ones stopping miners from using a t1 ship now are they? And besides that check out the whole security status issue they have to deal with.

Albert O'Balsam
Posted - 2009.06.27 22:14:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Future Mutant
Let me clear up a few misconceptions-
I never said that you must "play the game my way"
If you are playing the game- PLAY THE GAME
If you fly a t2 expensive ship- realize that you are flying a mostly uninsurable ship. Im sorry if game mechanics prevent you from doing whatever you want, how you want, when you want.
The answer to game mechanics is to ADAPT. Instead i see endless forum posts about how its not fair.


Fair Points clearly made - but I have to pull you up on one thing - The OP never claimed it wasnt fair - he quite openly accepted his fate - he was simply asking if the act was profitable by the ganker - which after reading the posts here may not be overly profitable - but certainly is not a huge loss maker either.

Musagetes
Gallente
Taggart Transdimensional
Virtue of Selfishness
Posted - 2009.06.27 22:32:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Future Mutant
Suicide gankers have zero risk? THEY LOSE THEIR SHIP!


Not really a risk if they know what the inevitable outcome is, now is it? :)

Future Mutant
Republic Military School
Posted - 2009.06.27 22:46:00 - [52]
 

to the post directly above- its not like they absolutely know the outcome- though i gotta admit with most hulks not fitting a tank they know the likely outcome. But then again thats true for most pvp and pve. you always try to stack the odds in your favor..

to the post above that post- i have not directed my comments at the op..

Miranda Ricsko
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2009.06.27 23:00:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Future Mutant
Originally by: Miranda Ricsko

The discussion was how there's basically zero risk for griefers and no good way to adapt to the ganking with the way Exhumers currently operate. There should always be risk no matter what you're doing, and steps to take to try and alleviate said risks. Therefore something in this situation needs to change on both sides.


Suicide gankers have zero risk? THEY LOSE THEIR SHIP! how much more risk do you want? The fact that they use a t1 insurable ship and miners use a t2 ship is besides the point. No ones stopping miners from using a t1 ship now are they? And besides that check out the whole security status issue they have to deal with.



Almost full insurance claim back + knowing that the target ship has no realistic way to defend against the attack = no real risk.

Firvain
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.06.27 23:52:00 - [54]
 

try fitting a tank on your hulk instead, you might survive longer..

[Hulk, New Setup 1]
Mining Laser Upgrade II
[empty low slot]

Survey Scanner II
Gistii B-Type Small Shield Booster
Photon Scattering Field II
Heat Dissipation Field II

Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I

Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I


Mining Drone II x5

has 111 defence with maxed skills, i get 110 for 6 minuts. I still have a good minign yield and even got a spare low slot to play with(barely no pg or cpu though :P), and can probally squeeze in two named MLU's.
yes it is a 40 mil shield booster, but hey its saving my 100 mil ship

yani dumyat
Minmatar
Pixie Cats
Posted - 2009.06.27 23:55:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Smokin' Dragon

best tank i can currently fit to my hulk....

Medium C5-L Emergency Shield Overload I
Medium Shield Extender II
Magnetic Scattering Amplifier II
Heat Dissipation Amplifier II

EHP:14211
Shields HP: 3083 (not including boost)

defence: 97 sust / 129 for 1m 12s

ok, all you gankers who are truly intersted in debating:
if i have a sustained def of 129 for 1 min (more than enough for concord response) and 14k EHP, how many BS's approx will it take to kill me?.........if we assume 600dps per BS



It's not DPS you need to worry about but volley damage, if someone's already killed you they won't care about waiting 8 seconds for their guns to cycle, the tempest can get 7000 volley damage pretty easily so i'll let you do the maths. Also your shield booster is irrelevant because it takes far less than a minute to get the kill so you'd be better off with more EHP.

For everyone who says you can't tank a hulk try this setup:

[Hulk, New Setup 1]
Damage Control II
Reinforced Bulkheads II

Invulnerability Field II
Small F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Small F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Invulnerability Field II

Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I

Core Defence Field Extender I
Core Defence Field Extender I


For all the miners who are complaining about risk vs reward i'd like to know what risks you are taking for your reward? I'd bet that the number of hulks that die from suicide ganks is considerably less than 1% of the total number in high sec so really your risk is very low compared to reward.

Asside from the hulk tank question there's plenty of ways to increase risk for the pirate - hints, velator alts have a special call concord button and suicide dessies are great for squishing pods Twisted Evil

Abrazzar
Posted - 2009.06.28 00:29:00 - [56]
 

If you find yourself a target or are generally afraid for the safety of your hulk, use this:

[Hulk, 30,000 EHP Mother****er]
Damage Control II
Micro K-Exhaust Core Augmentation

Medium Shield Extender II
V-M15 Braced Multispectral Shield Matrix
V-M15 Braced Multispectral Shield Matrix
Domination Magnetic Scattering Amplifier

Ice Harvester II
Ice Harvester II
Ice Harvester II

Core Defence Field Extender I
Core Defence Field Extender I


Future Mutant
Republic Military School
Posted - 2009.06.28 01:00:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: yani dumyat



For all the miners who are complaining about risk vs reward i'd like to know what risks you are taking for your reward? Twisted Evil


This exactly..
The common complaint here is the low "risk" of suicide ganking- though tbh the risk is a 100% guarantee of your ship being lost somehow thats not enough.
The ones complaining want a zero amount of risk when they mine. Doesnt work like that. you want zero risk- stay docked. you want reduced risk- mine in .8 or higher and fit a tank

Dodgy Past
Amarr
Digital Fury Corporation
Posted - 2009.06.28 01:22:00 - [58]
 

Edited by: Dodgy Past on 28/06/2009 01:24:20
Originally by: Smokin' Dragon

ok, all you gankers who are truly intersted in debating:
if i have a sustained def of 129 for 1 min (more than enough for concord response) and 14k EHP, how many BS's approx will it take to kill me?

if we assume 600dps per BS

20 seconds x 600 = 12000 damage = fail (but im in structure)

its enough to stop most battleships that are solo ganking, and will certainly tank a solo BC

alternatively you can try to fit a giant FO armour plate (but im not an armour tanker)


Gank fit BS could easily be well over 800 DPS. Plates and damage mods in the lows, sensor boosters in the mids. Admittedly 1600 plates would add to the cost of a gank.

Ghoest
Posted - 2009.06.28 02:16:00 - [59]
 

Its called "griefing". Its also called "EVE". Get used to it.

Clair Bear
Ursine Research and Production
Posted - 2009.06.28 05:25:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Dodgy Past
Gank fit BS could easily be well over 800 DPS. Plates and damage mods in the lows, sensor boosters in the mids. Admittedly 1600 plates would add to the cost of a gank.


What on earth would you need plates for? You are dead as soon as concord shows up. There is absolutely no need for tank.

FWIW, if I step up to a Hyperion (at an additional 7M cost) I can get 1024 DPS with a 4553 alpha out of the turrets alone. The "All Vs" guy would be even better with a staggering 1051 DPS using nothing but mission garbage guns. If I splurge on T2 guns and MFS spewing Void that goes to 5446 alpha with 1313 DPS from guns (1399 for the all Vs guy). Heck, let's throw four Ogre IIs on top for a ~5700 alpha and 1562 DPS for giggles.

Compare this maximum theoretical damage output with the several viable tankish hulk builds posted (hint: NOT active). Assuming a 10-15 second CONCORD response time and you can readily see that it'd take far more than just me to asplode a tanked hulk.

As is, I feel sad collecting 2 round (out of 4) ammo stacks apres solo gank vs. AFK, untanked, EHP reduced cargo rigged and expanded hulks and mackinaws.



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