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Steve Thomas
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2009.07.16 02:46:00 - [61]

Edited by: Steve Thomas on 16/07/2009 03:23:55
Edited by: Steve Thomas on 16/07/2009 02:47:40
to be honest you could probably junk the production and trade tutorials and combine them as a 10 part single path as they seem to be redundant(to the point of giving you 2 t1 haulers)

And honestly how many times do you have to walk people through making stuff untill they get it? between the paths you have them make a shuttle, ammo, cap bateries and a mining frigate(which incidentaly they dont need to make because you guys were hell bent on giving them two mining frigates to go with the 2 t1 industrial ships you give out)

To be honest you could probably go through all three sets of tutorials and cut out some 15 missions

let me make some notes and I will be right pack with a post on what you could do to streamline things

Ex Mudder
Oberon Incorporated
Posted - 2009.07.16 03:47:00 - [62]

I noticed that you needed to buy skillbooks for Afterburner and Industry, they were no longer handed out. There are also come skillbooks handed out that make no sense - they require skills like Industry, Survey, or Trade to 3 in order to even use them. There are also 2 (Shield ops and one other) that are unnecssary, as you start with those skills.

Steve Thomas
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2009.07.16 03:59:00 - [63]

Edited by: Steve Thomas on 16/07/2009 04:10:11
Edited by: Steve Thomas on 16/07/2009 04:00:43
ok here is what I think you need to do to help streamline the newbi missions

Easy version? pic one of the two manufacturing arcs and junk the other.(strip out the bits with the salvager and codebreakers and stuff, move them to a special exploration arc

or junk both as they currently are and create a 10 part arc that is as follows

1) mining,

2) refining,

3) bpo improvment, (Just a sudgestion but why not use a "Civilian shuttle" or "Civilian whatever" BPO) create a NPC lab that only does Civilian bpos on the "Newbi training" stations)

4)Buying and hauling minerals, (have aura spawn some of the minerals needed in another station if needed)

5) Contracts, you probably could have "aura" create a "contract" for them to pick up in that station and haul back to your starting station then create a contract to the npc agent)

6) production (you may also want to make a "Civilian BPwhatever only" production line to help reduce the inevitable clog up in production time that seems to happen when you have a bunch of new players show up)

7) Trade(Ie selling what you just made)

9) Courior

10) multi part production mission that involves mining and buying minerals to build something.


as for all the "Civilian codebreaker-salvager-analizer stuf I had you take out? add thoes to the "exploration" arc

a 10 part

1) Go out to a location and see what the heck is going on, get into fight with a "unknown ship" that is in a fight with a "completly unknown" ship

2) go out and (civilian)salvage the wreck you created in part 1 but you also see something new

3) go back out and (civilian analize) the other wreck but have a "hostile empire ship show up first and get blown to crap by a sleeper who your able to blow up

4) Go back out with a Civilian codebreaker to see if you can find out what if anything the "hostile empire" found out about anything

5) Drone school

6) Use and fitting of "Civilian prove launcher"

7) scan down a "level 0" exploration complex, fly back to base once its found

8) Fly to "level 0" exploration complex, get into minor fight with 2+ sleeper ships, one of which ducks out of a wormhole that colapses behind it

9) scan down "Level 0" wormhole, retreive drones, fly into it, have it colapes behind you,

part 10 use the probes you recovered to fly to another exploration sight that has an encounter zone and a one way wormhole back to a random high sec spot in the same empire. Twisted Evil

Yon Krum
The Knights Templar
Posted - 2009.07.16 05:06:00 - [64]


1. Corporations exist.

2. They are awesome.

3. Not joining one as soon as possible is silly.

Corporations consist of people, who in EVE are very, very frequently of the predatory sort, as we all know.

I'll be fascinated to see what kind of motivation you can offer for #3, as right now there's no benefit I can see to a new player for leaving the NPC corps.

Let's just be rational here for a moment: NPC corps form blocks of large, experience-diverse players all in one enormous channel--perfect for getting questions answered. The're found everywhere a new player is at, so you could, if you're trusting, go mission/mine with them. They play across all time-zones, so there's always someone in your "group" around. And they offer absolute safety from war-decs, so you're only at risk of losing your ship to another player if you're so hapless as to wander into lowsec (or buzz an industrial around Jita too much).

From the perspective of a new player, eyes-wide in the enormously threatening sandbox of EVE, what would you REALLY GAIN by leaving the NPC corp "nest"?

I'm honestly confused by this.


(To deflect the obvious question: *I* left the noob corp to go to 0.0, but by then I wasn't a new player.)

Keilateau Shakor
Posted - 2009.07.16 08:48:00 - [65]

Originally by: LittleBig Elmo

Not sure if anyone else is in the same boat but I cant help but find the sound efffect for the ACTIVE SHIELD HARDNERS nothing more than an irritating drone.
I think a good little option in the Audio sector would be to allow to mute or lower the volume of certain modules that frustrate the playing experience.

This. And then some more.

jst tstng
Posted - 2009.07.16 11:25:00 - [66]

How about a ingame new player FAQ that ISD or anyone else for that matter can point new players to that ask questions that are frequently asked.

Omega Tron
Amarr Mining Inc
Posted - 2009.07.16 12:48:00 - [67]

My recommendation to any new player is --- QUIT NOW. This is before you get addicted and before you become a victim of GM NOVA a CCP employee who will steal you blind. This game has some of the most viscus players and gaming management that you'll ever run into.

Estar Tarns
Posted - 2009.07.16 13:15:00 - [68]

A lot of people want newbies to learn losing a ship, good idea, but must be executed in another way that proposed (Ok, I didn't read all of the posts)..

Something like..

A mission should clearly state that the player WILL lose his ship and WILL NOT be given back
You will have to fly somewhere, to do a recon mission.
After he warps in, some pirates are there, doing their pirate stuff, warp scrambles and webs the pilot.
After a trying to fight them, the pilot dies and can warp off.
Mission completed.
Reward? Insurance from the lost ship and a decent mission reward (possible a new frigate or something)

The point is to reduce any rewards as much as possible, simply to let the player know, he will not get anything back when he is blown up later in the game.

I can already imagine the spam on forums and help channels "I didn't get my ship back when i died, the tutorial did this!"

Not too harsh, but should still tell the player "When your ship blows up, you're left without anything"

silken mouth
Core Genes Applied Technologies
Posted - 2009.07.16 14:08:00 - [69]

Also tell them that stying in NPC Corps is perfectly legit, keeps them safe from the griefing mechanic known as 'Wardec', and has no downsides....


Finally FIX Wardec system and add some downsides to NPC Corps and then tell them that PC Corps rock, because then they really would.....

Illectroculus Defined
No Bull Ships
Posted - 2009.07.16 16:35:00 - [70]

Originally by: silken mouth
Finally FIX Wardec system and add some downsides to NPC Corps and then tell them that PC Corps rock, because then they really would.....

50% tax rate for all non FW NPC corps might get the missioners moving (macro miners on the other hand....)

Xander Will
Posted - 2009.07.16 18:00:00 - [71]

Career agent missions expiring. This happened both during my trial and paid account. The problem is you have a week to perform not the particular mission but the whole series of 10. And the timer starts as soon as you talk to the agent. So if you innocently talk to the three agents to see what their missions are, you now have 1 week to complete all 30 missions.

Obviously if you are playing a lot this isn't a problem, but if you are a casual player or go on vaction or something you are SOL.

Career agent missions shouldn't expire. The epic arc missions don't so this should be possible.

Junko Togawa
Posted - 2009.07.16 18:01:00 - [72]

I agree with the sentiment that a brand-new char should get their rookie ship popped ASAP. Perhaps in the initial tutorial they encounter some big snargly rat that webs, scrams and owns them in very short order, then warps off. To complete the mission they return to station and get a new rookie ship, learning about that aspect of ship replacement.

As for the predictable whines about NPC corps being OP, I lulz. Go post in some L4 and Local nerf threads, plz, want to see moar of them. ugh

De'dari Romur
Posted - 2009.07.16 18:43:00 - [73]

How about adding an optional pvp button?

I am quitting the game over unintentional pvp and outright theft. No fun mining for an hour to have some DB come along and steal it from you.

Oh, and get rid of skill timers. You do those two things, and you bring an S-Ton of people into this game.

Mort Eveson
Intaki Liberation Front
Intaki Prosperity Initiative
Posted - 2009.07.16 23:03:00 - [74]

Originally by: De'dari Romur

*wince* I can't decide if ur being sarcastic, trolling or just don't get EVE.


Steve Thomas
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2009.07.16 23:15:00 - [75]

Originally by: silken mouth
Also tell them that stying in NPC Corps is perfectly legit, keeps them safe from the griefing mechanic known as 'Wardec', and has no downsides....


Finally FIX Wardec system and add some downsides to NPC Corps and then tell them that PC Corps rock, because then they really would.....
sadly their is still nothing to keep corps from being created by people who stink at being in charge of a corp.

Ervol Libra
Pinky and the Brain corp
Posted - 2009.07.17 12:32:00 - [76]

Learn them about losing a ship and about clone/clonegrades

also us billboards near gates and station for corp recruitment advertising.

Chip Flux
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2009.07.17 16:25:00 - [77]

So now my corp and I are officially `Silly`
The good advice to not jump into a player corp till you know what it is you are getting into, and to learn from the many older players who are there in CAS answering questions, is i take it also silly.
Well good luck convincing new players that the rippoff rubbish corps they join are a clever move.

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2009.07.17 17:34:00 - [78]

You know, if I had known content was being developed to gang noobs as part of the tutorial I would have applied for one of the content developer positions in Atlanta. Very Happy

Well good luck convincing new players that the rippoff rubbish corps they join are a clever move.

There is a difference between pushing new players into joining the first corp they see spamming recruitment ads in local, and showing them why and how to make intelligent and well informed choices when choosing a player corp... and then encouraging them to do so. Frankly, with some notable exceptions, most rookie corps are full of people with bad social skills. Granted, to each his own, but if you never leave the rookie corps you only ever experience the bare bones of the game and have limited opportunity to experience the depth and breadth the game has to offer.

Seer Decho
Posted - 2009.07.17 17:44:00 - [79]

I started playing EVE with two friends in January, and have cancelled my account this month. Thought I'd share my limited insight as a new player who has left the game.

#1 issue - making isk, while relatively easy to learn and exciting, turns out to be so hugely competitive that profit margins have become razor thin. With the apparent goal of the game the advancing of skills to fly bigger and better ships, a newish player finds himself unable to make enough money to buy new skills and new ships, without becoming a mining slave. Trust me: if the first 3 months of a new player's gametime is spent exclusively mining in high-sec like it's a second job, that player will sour to the game fast. This brings me to the second issue,

#2 issue - missions, while an exciting (if repetitive) and interactive way to make isk as a newbie, it quickly becomes apparent to a new player that faction reputation is edging him out of the global economy. I personally quit the game because it appeared that my only recourse to mining (mission running in my home systems) was quickly trending me towards unhealthy reputation with other player factions. I didn't want to cut out future options of merchant-running in those systems. The only solution was an unhandy juggling of reputation by working for each faction in turn.

Summary: A new player is presented with three options for isk making: farming high-sec asteroids for slim profits as a second job, mission running that is repetitive and backs one into a faction corner, or production that is already completely overrun by players who have snuffed out all of the profit margins.

Hope that makes sense.

Lamb Federation Navy
Posted - 2009.07.17 18:52:00 - [80]

Originally by: Ausser
I've forgotten two points:

* Tell them to mine in a combat mission after they killed the rats.

* Tell them to use the wiki (EVElopedia).

+1 for that

The evelopedia is not used enough by the new players they need to have some kind of Information tutorial : or how to find help tutorial .

and the older players need to add more things on the evelopedia

Terri Lam
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2009.07.17 21:11:00 - [81]

Edited by: Terri Lam on 17/07/2009 23:49:43
It looks like you are planning on forcing people out of the NPC corps. I'd just like to say that "I do not approve." We are unaffiliated freelancers and we have not left EVE yet so there must be some amount of fun in what we do. It is not our fault that others enjoy doing different things than we do, that is just the way people are.

I do agree that more needs to be done with the EVElopedia. I'd be more than happy to write articles for it, if I knew which topics needed articles, some time ago I saw a page listed with incomplete topics or something similar but have not been able to find it since. Maybe that is because the search tool for EVE-O constantly returns no results for my requests. Of course none of the new players know about Chribba's EVE-Search, so unless there is a big flashing sign above the search bar with a link to it, they will have even less luck finding things than I do.

Perhaps you could throw up a few adverts for EVElopedia on the log in in screen, with 2 or 3 pages that you want players to contribute to, and rotate the linked pages every 3 or 4 days.

I would also like to point out that "EVElopedia" is a very strange name and I would not call it anymore than an attempt at a clever play on the word 'encyclopedia' which comes from "Greek enkyklios + paideia education, child rearing, from paid-, pais child". Ignoring the 'lo' we get something along the lines of "EVE child" which doesn't make sense for the title of the accumulated knowledge of a galaxy. Adding the middle English 'lo' (an expression of surprise or wonder) gives us "EVE child!" which is even worse.

Sadly I have no suggestions for a new name.


I almost forgot: Bring back the old intro movie! (or merge it with the new one) None of the new players even care about the back story, it's all "mission, mission, where do I go?, how do I fly?, and I can't find my ship" I haven't seen one person ask about the EVE Gate, or ask about the different Empires since that new intro got put in. The Role-play is dieing.

Caleb Ayrania
Posted - 2009.07.18 04:07:00 - [82]

The staying motivation in eve is the pvp aspect. In this I mean the interaction with other players..

Usually atm this intro is given players when they get killed. This might not be considered the best initial experience of the most important aspect of the game. Sure some coming from other games will initiate contact because they are aware of the importance, but these might also be fast to skip most tutorial stuff.

Imho CCP should focus on tools and methods to get players activated and taught the steep learning curve fast by socializing.

For this I see the following as useful.

An Ingame Job-index. That corps can create much like a RL job add. The corp adds as they are really does not seem to be very usefull in its current format and pricing. These job adds could popup when players get the relevant certificates.

Player to player (corp to player etc) BILLING and Salaries.

This aspect is long needed, but it would go well with the WIS and all the other new stuff being added. A salaries feature would create a whole new aspect to the game, and support the time training theme EVE is running on. I even think a minor allowance would be warrented when in npc corps. Yes that would be an isk faucet, but a minor one compared to the upcoming sinks possible.

Last I would think CCP would do well in investing some manhours in datamining after all the player created guidance out there and post it in the wiki and have it in the tuturial material. Maybe just revamp some of it in ccps own style.

A small boost to profession specializing in general would also potentially boost the new player experience, because it would make a higher need for specialization and thus motivate players to grab new players. Many corps these days seem less inclined to pick up to young members, this is a risk/value assessment.

Creative Cookie Procuring
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2009.07.18 15:11:00 - [83]

I started playing in november of 08, and I can say two things that nearly made me quit playing were that you had to wait hours before you could play with anything, and you had no real idea what exactly you were supposed to do in the game.

What I would like to see changed is:

1. Its already been said, and I agree, give newbies some method of having the skills they need to start down whatever path they choose immediately

2. its also been said, but stress to them how awesome player corps are! theres nothing like a good honest bunch of guys to help you get started!

3. Tell them they don't have to stay in Empire forever (i've been living in nullsec for the past 6 months and i'll never go back to highsec or even lowsec).

4. let them know there are other paths besides mining and running missions (i don't think its emphasized enough).

Pumpkin Scissors
Evi1 Empire
Posted - 2009.07.18 20:13:00 - [84]

I have two ideas:
1. Use VR Combat Simulator for noob training (fight/navigation/ship death/pod killing)
2. Make interesting fight simulation - for example, resp 50-100 NPC ships. Give to noob good battleship and put him in the middle of great battle, this is nice way to learn basics about tackling, how to use broadcast/fleet window, passive/active defence, optimal and so on. And after this tell him that such battles he will find only in players corporation.

Isabol Morreax
Posted - 2009.07.18 20:32:00 - [85]

Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Edited by: CCP Soundwave on 25/06/2009 16:31:53 [snip]If you have any feedback, please make sure to log on and run them, so your feedback is up to date.
Your blog says:
The tutorial has come a long way, from not existing when the game launched (the new player experience consisted mostly of clicking away pop-up error messages), to the well structured and informative introduction we have today. Based on feedback from the playerbase, we are going to make tweaks and changes, to make it even more newbie friendly and interesting. One of the added goals for this expansion is to make sure that a player that completes the tutorial is aware that:

1. Corporations exist.

2. They are awesome.

3. Not joining one as soon as possible is silly.

As a newbie: Just finished your tutorials. Your Epic Arcs as well. Much better this time around. However, required many petitions to complete, and I've played my main for over a year. Does not transition well. Of all your goals the above and the designed focus on PVP has reiterated why I leave your game.

Why set your new players up to be ****d in this game? Telling them that Corporations are anything but the viper pit they are is not right! Corporations are set up for one reason and one reason only in this game, to **** the unsuspecting and ill prepared. All of them. This game is a sandbox and should be advertised as such. A game full of people preying upon everyone else in-game. Prepare them to start all over again and again and again. Do not hide the fact the game forces the player to become a willing victim, over and over with dependence on alliances and corporations. There is no alternative but to start over again and again. Read the news, join any corporation other than your own, and you are going to start over - soon.

Stress that.

As far as the rest, no need to set a game mechanism to accustom the player to death - all any of us has to do is undock and a ganking is coming within hours of initial play. We all learn to replace vessels / mods / etc. It would have been useful to know when and how to activate modules. Stupid as it sounds, it is necessary. It would be helpful to have known what to train for each type of play I was interested in. Lots of wasted time and disappointment would have been avoided. Reason I opted to start all over was to clean up the helter-skelter way my initial training went.

The solo player is not welcome in your game. STRESS THISTwisted Evil For those opting to go that route, it would have been nice to have dependable instruction on exploration / manufacturing / invention. Not the crap on the forums, full of out-dated mis-information. A CCP Mod supplier only of data: for basic ship fits and appropriate usages. Not pirate provided to swell the kill boards. Real information.

I'd not have removed all my players if not for the increased focus on PVP. I recently joined a group of PVPers. Was enjoying it, or trying to - had a bit of a hard time doing to others what happened to me. Was getting over it, until one of the members sauntered in bragging about how he had tricked a bunch of newbies into making him a director, and how he took everything from them. Yuk! Yuk! Yuk! snicker. Months of communal work, gone through no fault of their own other than believing they need to be in a corporation. and the game is encouraging this ****. That happened to me my first months in this game. And again when i mistakenly took advice on these forums and attempted to "try it again". Lost again. Decided to try the PVP thing, and just cannot stomach killing someone else's attempts at fun. I do not know how you are going to make **** attractive or introduce it in tutorial. Good luck with that.

Silent but Friendly
Posted - 2009.07.18 20:50:00 - [86]

Edited by: WheatGrass on 19/07/2009 02:13:09
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
1. Corporations exist.

2. They are awesome.

3. Not joining one as soon as possible is silly.
If you are human, then why do you insult the nature of the species? You are apparently toeing the company line here.

Originally by: Yon Krum
Corporations consist of people, who in EVE are very, very frequently of the predatory sort, as we all know.
I signed up for Eve so that I could game with one other person. I'm that sure others sign up not thinking of gaming with others. It may be a good idea for CCP to take a more balanced approach.

Please lend your attention here...
Redefining MMOs: Massively Singleplayer?
by Brooke Pilley Jul 16th 2009 at 11:00AM
Filed under: MMO industry, Opinion, Redefining MMOs

The following would be more accurate for item #2: '2. Some are great.'

Please don't take the following personally since it is likely beyond your control:
I cannot, with a good conscience, invite others to join this game when the sound is so broken. With that in mind, you are quite bold to traipse around the forums with a name such as CCP Soundwave. The great work which you and your team have accomplished, in regard to the new player experience, is greatly overshadowed by the audio problems currently present in the Eve client. Please consider that when you converse on the subject of the new player experience.

I would be more inclined to invite others to this game if a linux client were available -even with the existing sound issues.

In case anyone has as much trouble finding the original dev blog as I did, it's here... tranquility department of public safety – spaceship driver license offices reported by CCP Soundwave | 2009.07.15 20:46:04

Google is my friend.

Le Sac
The Python Cartel.
Posted - 2009.07.19 10:30:00 - [87]

Edited by: Le Sac on 19/07/2009 10:32:03
The biggest thing I can think of is letting the new characters have skill points in areas their race starts in: for instance, Gallente people woud have SP in armour tanking, drones, and hybrid weaponry, whilst Caldari would get SP in shield tanking, missiles, and hybrid turrets. Also, give the Ibis two missile hardpoints instead of turret ones; you would have to specifically buy and train up missile skills just to use either of the Caldari tier-3 frigates effectively.

Corporations are set up for one reason and one reason only in this game, to **** the unsuspecting and ill prepared.

What a load of nonsense.

A Sinner
Muppet Factory
Posted - 2009.07.19 13:42:00 - [88]

Make sure u write in the new tutorial that players should be careful of what name they pick. Cause if they pick one starting with "A" or "1" they will eventually be primary all the time and start hating CCP and maybe quit cause you don't akwnowledge your mistake and solve my problem and others in my situation. Unfortunately I like the game as much as I hate CCP policy and personnel therefore I would probably have to solve my problem by sending more money to CCP for character transfers. Actually if I think more about it don't add that in the new tutorial cause it would be more injustice added to me and others in my situation.

Dusty Monk
Posted - 2009.07.19 18:36:00 - [89]

total newbie here. finished the tutorials, got lost in the arc. still lost, mining and missioning no corporations want me do not have enough skill-points. died a lot of times already. Learned first day how to die and how to get a new ship was invited to join a corporation and when i went with the fellow got attacked and killed. nice introduction to being in a capsule . almost all the invites end up with my death. don't go with a corp recruiter you extend your life.

How exactly is joining a corporation fun and necessary and good?

not going to continue this game because it's no fun to just die

Trabber Shir
5I Incorporated
Posted - 2009.07.20 02:42:00 - [90]

Originally by: Downtym

B. Lowsec: A more thorough explanation and demonstration of low sec would be nice. An explanation of NPC stations, pirate missions, and the pirate factions would be a big boon. Quick fun thing to do: Open a convo to a (new) player and ask the following, "True or False: There are NPC stations in Lowsec that belong to the NPC 'pirate' factions. True or False: These stations have agents that will give you missions. True or False: You can gain faction with the pirate NPC's. True or False: If you gain enough faction the NPC pirates stop shooting at you and become friendly. True or False: If your faction with the NPC pirate corporations drops low enough you will not be able to dock at their stations. True or False: NPC pirate corporation stations obey the exact same mechanics as their high security counterparts."

Most of the rest of this post seems like things that are best saved for later, but answers to this quiz seems like something that should be answered by at least the newbie epic arc. I am by no means a new player, just a care bear, and I am embarrassed to admit I am not 100% certain of the answer to most of these questions.

If I remember cash flow for capsuleers correctly it mentions pirate agents in 0.0 and basically says avoid them at all cost.

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