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CCP Soundwave


C C P Alliance
Posted - 2009.06.25 16:23:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: CCP Soundwave on 25/06/2009 16:31:53


Part of developing an expansion includes changing and updating the new player experience, so it is not outdated when patch day comes. Essentially, we want to make sure the tutorial and the career paths are of a high quality and serve as a good learning tool for new players.


As with most other changes, hearing from the community is essential, so consider this thread your virtual box in Speakers’ Corner and give us some feedback. Specifically, we would like feedback on the following:


• The current tutorial. Are all the steps relevant? Is anything missing?
• The current career paths. Are they informative? Are they fun?


Last but not least:


• What newbie content would you like to see added?


A quick disclaimer: The tutorial and career paths undergo a lot of changes. If you have any feedback, please make sure to log on and run them, so your feedback is up to date.

Abrazzar
Posted - 2009.06.25 17:16:00 - [2]
 

Two things a new player should get tought come to my mind:
1.) That losing a ship isn't all that bad. (Have them popped in a mission with superior enemies and give them a replacement with the start of the next mission)

2.) That ninja salvaging is legal and while not loved perfectly fine. (Have a white NPC warp into the site of a recovery mission and have it "salvage" wrecks floating around)

Not sure if there is a way through tutorials to introduce new players into PvP basics.

Esiel
Renegade Serenity
Posted - 2009.06.25 19:51:00 - [3]
 

Biggest thing I can think of is better explanation of how to find and use agents. It is better but there needs to be an emphasis on finding agents in the same a corporation, how to find a better one when you are ready to change, and finnaly when is it time to change agents and find a better one.

Ausser
Bubba Gump ORE Corp.
Posted - 2009.06.25 21:54:00 - [4]
 

1) As Abrazzar sayed, the "Fist in the Face" and getting podded would be good, but i'm not sure if it can be done in a usefull and nice way. Teach loosing stuff.

2) Teach "Dont create new character just because you think you've choosen the wrong race". In eve you allways can train everything. Sometimes newbies show up on the forum who did it.

3) Teach "Choose your name (corp name) wisely, you will keep it loooooong long time". F&I forum is full of requests for stuff to change names.

Uronksur Suth
Posted - 2009.06.25 22:22:00 - [5]
 

all of what has been mentioned so far, but what I'd like to emphasize is finding a good corp to join. (too many newbies go out and train Corporation Management I and start spamming the recruitment channel)

Finding agents for various NPC corps and mission running. I'd also like to see an early explanation of the difference between the different agent types: Legal, Archives, Administration, R&D, Security and Trade and so on.

Make the continuity of the tutorials better. I lost the thread of them somewhere, but since I've played EVE before, I was fine. I bet a lot more aren't and are finding the "How" of moving onto new agents difficult.

For the love of God, explain to them that Asteroid belts can be depleted. Explain it to them BEFORE sending them on the Mining Tutorial mission so they don't spam the Rookie Help channel every 10 seconds with the SAME question.

Create a sort of mentor program? Reward veteran players for playing along with new players and showing them the ropes? Just a thought.

I think the most important issue is connecting new players with corps really.

Ausser
Bubba Gump ORE Corp.
Posted - 2009.06.25 23:50:00 - [6]
 

I've forgotten two points:

* Tell them to mine in a combat mission after they killed the rats.

* Tell them to use the wiki (EVElopedia).

Big Bit
Posted - 2009.06.25 23:55:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Big Bit on 25/06/2009 23:58:24
Give love to supercapitals.
Newbies don't need love.

Ard TheHard
Cosmic Cimmerians
Posted - 2009.06.26 00:39:00 - [8]
 

Hrm.

Is that Villard Wheel mission still there? It really needs some clarification that this item does not exist and that it's really about the mechanics of Invention. This question pops up very often in the newbie channel.

New players need to get blown up at least once. Give them a decent fit frigate, send them to their death, then compensate them with ISK so they can decide what best to invest in next.

Fun fact: the word "help" doesn't appear on the front page of the forums.

Dai Lao
Posted - 2009.06.26 02:22:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: CCP Soundwave
• The current tutorial. Are all the steps relevant? Is anything missing?

All of the steps are quite relevant. The one missing item is the Afterburner skill. During Cashflow For Capsuleers it states that you are given the skill during the Crash Course, I had to buy it on the market.
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
• The current career paths. Are they informative? Are they fun?

Cashflow for Capsuleers was quite fun, and does a good job at introducing modules and skills.
Mountains Out of Molehills is an informative tutorial of mining, refining, and manufacturing. Not my forte, but enjoyable in that it shows options open to new players.
Balancing The Books is informative, but seemed a bit beyond what a new player could reasonably attain quickly.
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
• What newbie content would you like to see added?

As the Starter Ships, and the Mining Frigates awarded in the Mountains Out Of Molehills & Balancing The Books Tutorials all have drone bays, information and/or training on the them would be extremely helpful to the new player. Perhaps, one of the manufacturing jobs could even be converted to the manufacture of a drone? Or, one of the attack/mining missions could incorporate the use of said drone. (Mining or Light Scout)

Uronksur Suth
Posted - 2009.06.26 04:56:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Dai Lao
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
• The current tutorial. Are all the steps relevant? Is anything missing?

All of the steps are quite relevant. The one missing item is the Afterburner skill. During Cashflow For Capsuleers it states that you are given the skill during the Crash Course, I had to buy it on the market.


Me as well. I was really confused. Good to see it wasn't just me. Neutral

AtheistOfDoom
Amarr
Invicta.
Posted - 2009.06.26 06:06:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Uronksur Suth
Originally by: Dai Lao
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
• The current tutorial. Are all the steps relevant? Is anything missing?

All of the steps are quite relevant. The one missing item is the Afterburner skill. During Cashflow For Capsuleers it states that you are given the skill during the Crash Course, I had to buy it on the market.


Me as well. I was really confused. Good to see it wasn't just me. Neutral

I agree, something with afterburners/mwds on the tutorial would be great. It took me forever to find out about them when I started outConfused

Jin Labarre
Posted - 2009.06.26 09:12:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Jin Labarre on 26/06/2009 09:14:00
Pointed out already, but very important:

1. Character names and portraits.

Make it clear that names cannot be changed and that the chosen name will stick for years to come. Point out that the name they think is soooo cool and badass may sound pretty stupid by the time they turn 14. Also remind them that the character portrait, that they think looks so totally hard and badass may eventually just be pretty ugly. After explaining that in a fashion that is not clicked away without reading, give them one chance to change name and portrait for one final time. Perhaps that would make the galaxy a better place and save me from all the... no. I won't even give exaggerated fictional examples for the fear they might be real.

2. Getting killed.

Like pointed out before, accustom new players to losing a ship by blowing them up in a mission where they cannot possibly win or escape. Then give them back their ship, when they dock back with the agent as a surprise gift. Not any replacement. Exactly same ship. Destroyed ship should not have any modules or salvage left, of course. Otherwise I'd already see the exploits. No, wait. I would DO the exploits. So that would be bad. Just give back what was lost and the newbies will have learned at least part of a valuable lesson.

3. High speed

Teach about the importance of speed and add a civilian microwarpdrive so they can check it out. Just give it a lunatic signature increase, so exploits in regular game using the civilian version are highly unlikely or make it damage itself during use.

Dai Lao
Posted - 2009.06.26 17:31:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Dai Lao on 26/06/2009 17:34:23
Originally by: Abrazzar
Two things a new player should get tought come to my mind:
1.) That losing a ship isn't all that bad. (Have them popped in a mission with superior enemies and give them a replacement with the start of the next mission)

2.) That ninja salvaging is legal and while not loved perfectly fine. (Have a white NPC warp into the site of a recovery mission and have it "salvage" wrecks floating around)

Not sure if there is a way through tutorials to introduce new players into PvP basics.
These are taught by every pirate, and every pirate wannabe. And usually within the new player's first few days.
Except for Eve's pirate core, few people enjoy dying, losing everything, and starting over and over and over.
Computer games have a "save game" - "load game" feature, because players don't like dying, and losing everything.
In most mmorpg games, when you "die," you simply can't do anything until you are resurrected, or you're party completes or fails the mission. Then you're returned to life, without losing anything.
I have been playing Guild Wars for one and a half years, four of my five characters have NEVER died, only my first character has.
If you notice the large exclamation point I have for a portrait, it's because I've uninstalled the game. I love this kind of game, but with piracy not only rampant, but supported by the developers, I can't play Eve-online.

LaughingManic
Posted - 2009.06.26 22:01:00 - [14]
 

One question that keeps coming up is how to join other channels like recruitment, so that should probably be covered in the tutorials (Unless it already is, it's been a while since I've done any tutorials)

Tikka
Caldari
Gemeinschaft interstellarer Soeldner
Posted - 2009.06.27 12:20:00 - [15]
 

Show and explain them in the toutorial that the stetting of personal goals is most important in Eve. Many newcommer leave Eve becouse they do not see what Eve holds for them beyond Missis and some productions.

To do this, introduce some stories "lifepath" of playerpilots where the new player can read what is all possible in Eve.

You have some good writers, use them :)

Fridge Chesthair
Posted - 2009.06.27 20:35:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Fridge Chesthair on 27/06/2009 20:35:36
1. Teach the basics of what can and cannot be done to other players while in empire. Most of the new players I meet are upset that they can't shoot other players for taking certain actions. At other times, they don't know they can legally shoot or that others can legally shoot them.

2. Provide an in depth tutorial for the galaxy map. It is a very powerful tool that can make players lives easier or a living hell.
Things that need explanation:
Autopilot - Shortest route vs. safest route
Sovereignty - Faction space, low standings, corp locations
Coloring stars by statistics - Scouting ahead
Empire, Low-sec and 0.0 space - Staying in Empire

This could be wrapped up in a mission that requires use of the map to find an objective with out an autolink provided.

Fridge Chesthair
Posted - 2009.06.27 20:51:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Tikka
Show and explain them in the toutorial that the stetting of personal goals is most important in Eve. Many newcommer leave Eve becouse they do not see what Eve holds for them beyond Missis and some productions.

To do this, introduce some stories "lifepath" of playerpilots where the new player can read what is all possible in Eve.

You have some good writers, use them :)


Good Idea. I think one of the major obstacles for many new players is a lack of direction. They are presented with a huge number of options from the beginning and aren't provided with explicit examples of what can be done.

In contrast, many other MMOs provide "goals"in the form of exclusive abilities, level caps, content prerequisites, etc.

Now, EVE specifically doesn't include many of these. Some would say for the better. However, new players need some form of hand holding so that they allocate real world resources (in this case the time necessary to train skills) properly.

Otherwise you players can become unsatisfied with their character when they finally understand what they have been doing for the last few weeks or months.

Aethrwolf
Caldari
Podrratu
Posted - 2009.06.28 08:05:00 - [18]
 

I like the idea of a mentoring program that rewards the mentors, but it would unfortunately probably result in people exploiting it by creating trial accounts to cash in on it. I think a way around exploiting it would be to have a list of pilots who have signed up to be mentors and when a new player signs up to be mentored (possibly via a new type of agent where ppl can sign up to be a mentor or to be mentored) the new player is randomly assigned to the available mentors in his/her area.

As for rewards for the mentors.. perhaps bonuses while fleeted with their new "apprentice" training? bounty payouts? sec status gains? or even a slight boost to faction standings? I favor either the sec status or the standings.. after all most experienced pvp pilots have sec status issues.. so who better to get noobs into pvp? and if the person wants pve instead.. many mission runners have standings issues with at least one faction. balancing would be an issue, as well as ensuring that the mentor actually mentored.. perhaps no reward until the "apprentice" has talked to the mentoring agent and filled out a short questionnaire.

CCP Soundwave


C C P Alliance
Posted - 2009.06.29 15:44:00 - [19]
 

This feedback is really good guys, keep it coming.

Valandril
Caldari
Ex-Mortis
Posted - 2009.06.29 16:56:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Valandril on 29/06/2009 16:58:58
Two of my friends recently joined eve and based of theyr experience i thought out some changes.

As already mentioned they need to be told that only goals in eve are the ones they will set for themself. Many people grind missions/mine because they don't know what else to do in this game. Definitly maybe interviewish like articles with some people telling how they started with eve and followed theyr goals (ie. trader, missioner, pvper and so on). Also how to find good corp (link to eve-uni maybe, or forums).
They also must be learn to actualy look for information, maybe small hidden quest somewhere in eve-wiki to which you will get pointed from tutorial. This game is very deep and they need to learn to look for information.

Also tutorial must be very very short and specific to what you want to do, most of my friends who join this game already know what they wanna do (combat or mining) so why would they bother learning the other one. Simply tutorial after basic UI and navigation should be separate into multiple types of missions so you can pick interesting topics.
Ie. he can pick "pvp" topic and you will throw him against sleeper who will kill his ship and **** his wreck and then you explain him basic of how pvp works.

Oh, and bring back aura.

Jarvis Hellstrom
Gallente
The Flying Tigers
United Front Alliance
Posted - 2009.06.29 19:39:00 - [21]
 

I really like the idea of a mentoring program. Perhaps some kind of mentoring channel where new players can go for assistance with missions etc.

Usually new folks try and use Local, but often that's so full of spam, bots and scam that it's hard to sort the signal from the noise.

I, for one, really enjoy taking new players around and showing them the ropes (as well as teaching them some of the pitfalls). I find that quite rewarding and I'm sure there are other pilots who do as well.

Give us some kind of useable match system to help out the new folks and we'll gladly do so!

Ulstan
Posted - 2009.06.30 17:14:00 - [22]
 

-Have one tutorial where their ship is blown up by warp scrambling rats. Reimburse them for it (or better yet, instruct them to insure it beforehand)

-The industrial newbie arc is frustrating for a 'real' brand new player, because they are told to mine all these minerals, they warp to an asteroid belt, and behold, it is completely mined out and no asteroids are to be found. *Highly* recommend either spawning new asteroid belts for the new players for these missions, and telling them that static asteroid belts can and will be respawned.

-Getting new modules and skillbooks (and ships!) during the normal tutorial is awesome and a lot of fun and a good way to introduce players to the fun of upgrading and fitting out yoru ships. By comparison, the 'epic mission' seemed rather dull - 100k isk, 100k isk, 100k isk, etc.

Ulstan
Posted - 2009.06.30 17:18:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Ulstan on 30/06/2009 17:23:11
Also, the last time I did the three tutorials (cash flow, mountains, books) I do not recall the 'invention' tutorial being around anymore.

I also don't remember being told the difference between afterburners and mwd, or how to use drones.

One good tutorial, since you have already kind of taught new players to use the autopilot for moving from system to system, is to have a tutorial where they have to jump manually (to zero) along with some rats that will blow the crap out of them if they try to autopilot their way to the gate. Teach them to not try to slowboat might help them in low sec.

Fille Balle
Ballbreakers R us
Posted - 2009.06.30 20:19:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Fille Balle on 30/06/2009 20:20:15
1. Already mentioned, but a big fat WARNING about agression mechanics is a good start

2. "You can get scammed, and it's not against the eula", one sentence, says it all really. would stop a lot of useless threads in this sections of the forums

3. "You are never safe, paranoia is your friend. In eve, everyone wants to take your stuff", yet another one sentence. Again, save a few threads from being created.

4. Remove the lame "joining a player corp can offer you protection" bs message. Let's be honest, no pc offers you any real protection. It just makes people think that they pay tax for protection that they never get. Change it to: "don't fekkin join a player corp until you can handle yourself ok?"

5. Big fat warning: because someone offers you a "ransom fee" doesn't mean that you are guaranteed safety. Trust your instincts, and ALWAYS NEGOTIATE! If your agressor is not willing to negotiate at all, chances are he/she'll only add further grief to an already grievous situation.

6. For all mission runners, join the "helpmymission" channelEmbarassed ok, maybe not. But still, I can't see any harm in this. HMM is a non profit organization.

7. DON'T enter lowsec unless you are prepared to loose your ship

That's all I can think of right now. Might add more later.

Uronksur Suth
Posted - 2009.06.30 21:38:00 - [25]
 

I'd vote for making the AURA tutorials a lot more intrusive. Its too easy to wander off the beaten pack, lose the tutorial quest lines, and then just end up bothering everyone with questions like "where did all the asteroids go?" "Why is this belt empty?" or "How do I move my ship?"

Yes, I've actually seen some fools spamming the Rookie Help channel with questions on how to move their ship.... Embarassed

Lance Matthews
Posted - 2009.07.01 00:24:00 - [26]
 

A better UI that does not involve working through many layers of sub-menus would go a long way toward making the new player experience smoother. Also, a more readable font (or just bigger and anti-alaised) would be good for all of the text reading there is.

Other things:
  • Complete voice overs. I can't emphasize enough how important this is. Voice overs with subtitles are a much more effective way of communicating than multiple text boxes. Black and White is a pretty good example of how this can work effectively.

  • Start the player in space, not in a station. Removes one unnecessary step.

  • Instead of starting the new players in a normal system, start them off in a "noob system" with either no jump gates, or a jump gate to one other noob system (for jump gate training). Basically, stick them in their own self-contained world until they finish the tutorial. I am sure full instancing is not possible, but that might also be another way to handle it.

  • There needs to be a basic compendium of how various ships are normally fit (e.g. Caldari ships shield tank and use missiles and hybrid turrets). Maybe even example fittings at least through frigates. Basically, a in game guide (and don't even think about running it using a browser window until the browser is faster).

  • There are a lot of ships in EVE, explain the typical order in which they get them. Also, explain what ships are good for what levels of missions.

  • Explanation of Tech 1 vs Tech 2 vs named modules. This can be VERY confusing for the beginning player.



Nyota Sol
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2009.07.01 16:51:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Nyota Sol on 01/07/2009 16:55:16

I wrote a massive thing 2 months ago when i had only been playing for 2 months myself. "Tommy" and the New Player Experience

I also just started a new thread on creating a "PvP Epic Arc".

Generally speaking, Eve's steep Learning Curve (LC) is disconnected from the Experience Curve (EC). New players are faced with hard choices without having the information and knowledge to comfortably make those choices. As a new player in a new game, it is NOT cool to be faced with so many "fun vs smart" options (ex. training Learning Skills vs more fun things). If you want to keep those players, they need more rewards, more positive experiences, more choices that make sense to them.

To be blunt, Eve is not fun enough in the first few weeks and yet it has everything it needs to be much more fun. Things need to be handed to them on a platter and in much more satisfying ways... regardless of what the vets & ideologues say.


  • create a pvp epic arc (within a special noob-only constellation of w-space

  • add a tier of advanced newb-corp agents for pvp & industry

  • add a bunch of automated noob-corp decorations & more LP rewards

  • higher income in the first few weeks (eve should NEVER be about grinding veld at 200 a cycle just to pay for a frigate)

  • more "civilian" modules to be used in advanced noobie missions, especially pvp

  • add a "ship repository" which lets you see all the ships in Eve (toys!)

  • dramatically lower "attribute" implant costs (there's no valid reason for them to be so high and the costs systematically undermine FUN)

  • allow training of a 2nd character at 50% speed (even if limited to the first few months of subscribing to eve



I could go on and on.

Bonny Lee
Caldari
Starkstrom
Initiative Mercenaries
Posted - 2009.07.02 08:46:00 - [28]
 

I have thaught a bit about my last trys to convince some friends of mine to eve.
I´ve came to the conclusion that i can estimate if someone stays or not before
they even start to play. I had some of my friend where i was sure they´d like the concept
of eve and others who want stay for very long.

I helped one of my friends to get into the game cause i like to play with him in all
the other mmogs. I knew it would be a pain for him to learn the basics and had a bad
feeling to the beginning. So i decided to help him with playing tut with a new char and
being available for questions all the time. He liked eve very much until the the tutorial
ended. He knew how to find new Agents, he knew how to fit a ship, i told him what he could
do if he wanted to... but after some days he told me that he quit cause he didnt get along
with the game. Its ok eve isnt for everybody.

My question is: Does this new player Experience really help to get players into the game.
I think its good but i do believe that the same people who now play for a longer period of
time would have done it anyways. Isnt this tutorial taking you step by step through the game
like all the other MMOGs do it. Isnt that in a totally differnt way like EvE behaves later?
Does the tutorial really show the player that it is a big sandbox? I dont believe in that.

So what should you do:

=> Make some parts of the tutorial where the player needs to choose his own way how to get to
the goal. He could mine, he could rat, he could scam, he could trade etc. Let it be his own decision.(for example: we need isk bring it to us... u are free to do it how you like it... i know thats a very easy example :p)


Xennith
Imperial Logistics and Supply
Posted - 2009.07.02 11:55:00 - [29]
 

Expose them to PvP early on, put two newbies up against each other or something, just some kind of icebreaker so that people arent scared of (as mentioned) losing a ship, or leaving highsec.

Nyota Sol
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2009.07.02 14:37:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Nyota Sol on 02/07/2009 14:40:52
Originally by: Xennith
Expose them to PvP early on, put two newbies up against each other or something, just some kind of icebreaker so that people arent scared of (as mentioned) losing a ship, or leaving highsec.


Yes, the costs/risks of PvP should be enticing... not a disincentive.

Attribute implants are generally too expensive (without any good reason). Newer players need more rewarding opportunities to pvp early on. Jump clones are entirely out of range for them and the game is overwhelming in general.

There are too many times where new players feel compelled to do the "smart" thing rather than the "fun" thing. The compulsion to only max training time while grinding missions or mining is just toooo overwhelming for new players.

I came to Eve wanting to focus on PvP.

I quickly realized i needed jump clones and a lot of ISK. I spent weeks grinding standing for a jump clone, and even then i felt like PvP was something out of reach by myself. I wasn't interested in Militia, because i was told it cost too much and would kick me out of my corp.

CCP needs to systematically rethink all of that.

- cut "attribute" implant costs by 80% and watch all the good it does for eve gameplay
- make the militia more accessible (i.e. dont leave your corp)
- add a pvp epic arc for low SP characters
- perhaps allow a single jump clone at noob corp stations while you are in the noob corp



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