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Aargh
Posted - 2009.06.10 11:08:00 - [61]
 

As part of a small corp who have just started to knock out T3 subsystems, this sucks.

I note that none of the changes indicate any increase in sig/anomaly spawns, so there'll still be the same amount of wasting time looking for content and once found, the content will be worth less. Neutral


Slave 2739FKZ
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.06.10 11:09:00 - [62]
 

About people talking about T2 & moons, the serious bottleneck there right now are datacore prices, which make prices go up. Remember manufatcure is just a fraction of total cost (a T2 cruiser you can manufacture by around 30-40 mill. without counting time & invention job). But that's an entirelly different topic.

CCP Chronotis

Posted - 2009.06.10 11:14:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: Braaage
Chronotis we still don't know if any of the reverse engineering skills affects the outcome of the RE job. We haven't been told they do, we haven't been told they don't.

How about spilling the beans Razz and if they don't change the outcome how about making them change it?


ofc they do Very Happy


Brolly
Caldari
5ER3NITY INC
Posted - 2009.06.10 11:59:00 - [64]
 

Drops may increase,but it doesn't mean prices will go down, just means a greater profit margin for the industrialists :)

I can see the backlash now where people all over the forums are going to whine at CCP because the manufacturors aren't going to lower prices much :D

Awww, what's that?, 'carebears' not letting you have your shiny ships for a low price Laughing

It's all about supply and demand, kid.

Jonathan Calvert
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2009.06.10 12:34:00 - [65]
 

Competition will drive prices down. Its unavoidable. Any cost savings as a result of increased supply of materials will cause someone to lower sell prices.

Jonathan Calvert
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2009.06.10 12:36:00 - [66]
 

Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Originally by: Braaage
Chronotis we still don't know if any of the reverse engineering skills affects the outcome of the RE job. We haven't been told they do, we haven't been told they don't.

How about spilling the beans Razz and if they don't change the outcome how about making them change it?


ofc they do Very Happy




Is there a reason we cant be told exactly how much of an effect skills have on a research job? Like putting in the text of the skill, 5% increase chance of success per level. Mods have this, why dont research skills? And cant we know the base chance as well? Otherwise we have to waste a lot of time and money figuring this out, which other people dont.

Braaage
Ministry of Craft
Posted - 2009.06.10 13:24:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Originally by: Braaage
Chronotis we still don't know if any of the reverse engineering skills affects the outcome of the RE job. We haven't been told they do, we haven't been told they don't.

How about spilling the beans Razz and if they don't change the outcome how about making them change it?


ofc they do Very Happy




Grrr see if I knew this before RE'ing this lot I would have made sure my skills were higher and I wouldn't have wasted billions on RE'ing.

Why we don't get told this on inception is beyond me, I sent numerous emails to CCP, posted forum after forum post asking for info and no-one replied and we were left guessing. At least now we know!!

Time to churn out what's left then before they become worthless.

Turiel Demon
Minmatar
Celtic industries
Posted - 2009.06.10 13:25:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: Mes Ren
Edited by: Mes Ren on 08/06/2009 22:03:32
I did the number cruching -- here is where we will be after the changes.

First, the assumptions:
- Neurovisual Input Matrix drops in price from 6-7mil to 2mil or less.
- Carbon-86 drops in price from 3.2mil to 2.3mil or less.
- Scandium Metallofullerene increases in price from 34,900 to 100,000isk/unit.
- Subsystem Datacore go from 10mil/unit on avg (and 25mil/unit on avg for offensive) to 5mil/unit on avg. across the board.
- Reverse Engineer will increase the number of runs per bpc from 3 to 9.

Current costs for T3 (assuming 75% success rate):
- Hull - approx. 200 - 250mil/unit (Reverse Engineering Cost approx. 30mil/unit with Wrecked Hulls) - Total Cost: 230mil - 280mil
- Defensive Subsystem - approx. 25 - 50mil/unit (Reverse Engineering Cost approx. 19mil/unit) - Total Cost: 44mil - 69mil
- Electronic Subsystem - approx. 42 - 51mil/unit (Reverse Engineering Cost approx. 19mil/unit) - Total Cost: 61mil - 70mil
- Engineering Subsystem - approx. 42 - 51mil/unit (Reverse Engineering Cost approx. 19mil/unit) - Total Cost: 61mil - 70mil
- Offensive Subsytem - approx. 53 - 86mil/unit (Reverse Engineering Cost approx. 46mil/unit) - Total Cost: 99mil - 132mil
- Propulsion Subsystem - approx. 42 - 51mil/unit (Reverse Engineering Cost approx. 19mil/unit) - Total Cost: 61mil - 70mil

* cost spread is largely the difference between reacting the polymers yourself and buying them off the market.

Please take into account that for every given subsystem group, there is usually 1 or 2 highly desirable subsystems. Since you can not pick which subsystem you will get (completely random within a group), there is additional costs to produce the desired subsystem. This is figured by multiply the Reverse Engineer Cost/unit by 4.

Proposed System costs for T3 (assuming 75% success rate):
- Hull - approx. 95 - 127mil/unit (Reverse Engineering Cost approx. 10mil/unit with Wrecked Hulls) - Total Cost: 105mil - 137mil
- Defensive Subsystem - approx. 17 - 34mil/unit (Reverse Engineering Cost approx. 2mil/unit) - Total Cost: 19mil - 36mil
- Electronic Subsystem - approx. 18 - 24mil/unit (Reverse Engineering Cost approx. 2mil/unit) - Total Cost: 20mil - 26mil
- Engineering Subsystem - approx. 18 - 24mil/unit (Reverse Engineering Cost approx. 2mil/unit) - Total Cost: 20mil - 26mil
- Offensive Subsytem - approx. 28 - 51mil/unit (Reverse Engineering Cost approx. 2mil/unit) - Total Cost: 30mil - 52mil
- Propulsion Subsystem - approx. 18 - 24mil/unit (Reverse Engineering Cost approx. 2mil/unit) - Total Cost: 20mil - 26mil

If the current markups held true (and current market prices continue to hold steady on materials) you would see the following T3 Retail prices:

Hulls: 350mil - 450mil
Defensive Subsystems: 66mil - 106mil
Electronic Subsystems: 56mil - 96mil
Engineering Subsystems: 56mil - 96mil
Offensive Subsystems: 82mil - 126mil
Propulsion Subsystems: 56mil - 96mil

So a total T3 Ship would cost between 666mil - 990mil. As competition between producers increases, material costs come down, these retail prices could come down 10% - 25%.

Couple of other notes: The prospective new costs could change dramatically up or down depending on drop rates adjustments. The 2 biggest material costs for T3 (not including reverse engineering costs for subsystems) are Carbon-86 and Neurovisual Input Matrix. Third in line is Melted Nanoribbons (though there is a big gate between this item and the previous 2). Increasing the drop rate of this item (causing it's cost to come down) would also have a decent effect on new pricing. They didn't say in the blog that they are increasing all the ancient salvage drops, just adjusting them to get rid of bottlenecks, so I'm assuming we'll see and increase drop in Neurovisual Input Matrix and probably Melted Nanoribbons.



Nice analysis Mes, and it seems those assumptions are about right too. NIMs are in free-fall, buy orders down to 3.5m already.

Jiks
Caldari
Prophets of Doom
Posted - 2009.06.10 17:12:00 - [69]
 

"Curious, but how do you equate a POS presence with hampering T3 availability?"

Firstly - rumours a POS in the system negatively affects the sig spawn rate. Would be good to know once and for all if thats right or not TBH.

Secondly - many or possibly even most of the POS I've seen exploring since release have had no T3 related gear. They have simply been placed in Sleeper space because its a safer place to build, well anything from carriers to T2 ammo from what I've seen. Visitors entering said systems to run the actual content have met with heavy dictors and other nastiness ^^

Of course POS set up to refine gas, minerals, build sub-systems etc are there too, its the other ones I'm talking about. From various random rants I've seen on GD I'm not the only one who has doubts this is "as intended." I'm biased of course though as I like exploring, roaming through Sleeper space and general blowing stuff up out there...

Jiks


Vasta Magna
Yarex Shipyards
Posted - 2009.06.10 17:17:00 - [70]
 

Originally by: Jiks


The second biggest obstacle IMO hasn't been addressed, which is the plague of POS sweeping Sleeper space. As it stands theres a huge incentive to base any industrial activity other than moon mining and super-capital production in Sleeper space as its so much more difficult to assemble an attack fleet to take it out. As a result we are seeing the percentage of Sleeper systems with POS steadily increase which hinders gathering the T3 resources. It is unclear to me whether the signature spawns are affected by a POS presence or not ... the info has been conflicting.

Now I don't know what the solution might be, perhaps non gas/ore refining industrial structures going offline at some future date or something. Hopefully someone brighter than me has better idea, otherwise pretty soon nearly all of the regularly empire accessable Sleeper system will have POS in which will hamper both exploring and T3 availability.

Jiks



Confirming that the quoted post makes no sense.

Mes Ren
No Trademark
Posted - 2009.06.10 18:44:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: Turiel Demon
Originally by: Mes Ren
Edited by: Mes Ren on 08/06/2009 22:03:32
Stuff



Nice analysis Mes, and it seems those assumptions are about right too. NIMs are in free-fall, buy orders down to 3.5m already.


Yeah, everyone is trying to unload their NIM before they become plentiful. Scand Full has also gone way up. The thing I find funny about this is the fact that we still don't have an announcement for when the patch will come .... it could be many weeks away, and even when it does come out, you still have to give it time before we feel the effects because people still have to go out and get these increased drops.


Clansworth
Good Rock Materials
Posted - 2009.06.10 18:45:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: Jiks
"Curious, but how do you equate a POS presence with hampering T3 availability?"

Firstly - rumours a POS in the system negatively affects the sig spawn rate. Would be good to know once and for all if thats right or not TBH.

Secondly - many or possibly even most of the POS I've seen exploring since release have had no T3 related gear. They have simply been placed in Sleeper space because its a safer place to build, well anything from carriers to T2 ammo from what I've seen. Visitors entering said systems to run the actual content have met with heavy dictors and other nastiness ^^

Of course POS set up to refine gas, minerals, build sub-systems etc are there too, its the other ones I'm talking about. From various random rants I've seen on GD I'm not the only one who has doubts this is "as intended." I'm biased of course though as I like exploring, roaming through Sleeper space and general blowing stuff up out there...

Jiks




I guess this isn't my experience. I live in W-Space, and we do not currently run gas processes, however, we DO clear out every site that spawns, stockpiling or selling the gasses/salvage/loot/ore/whatever.

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
Posted - 2009.06.10 20:35:00 - [73]
 

Originally by: Braaage
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Originally by: Braaage
Chronotis we still don't know if any of the reverse engineering skills affects the outcome of the RE job. We haven't been told they do, we haven't been told they don't.

How about spilling the beans Razz and if they don't change the outcome how about making them change it?


ofc they do Very Happy




Grrr see if I knew this before RE'ing this lot I would have made sure my skills were higher and I wouldn't have wasted billions on RE'ing.

Why we don't get told this on inception is beyond me, I sent numerous emails to CCP, posted forum after forum post asking for info and no-one replied and we were left guessing. At least now we know!!

Time to churn out what's left then before they become worthless.


what in the name of bloody **** would make you think that the skill to reverse engineer wouldn't affect the results of Reverse engineering? Laughing

CCP Chronotis

Posted - 2009.06.11 07:50:00 - [74]
 

Originally by: Clansworth
Originally by: Jiks
"Curious, but how do you equate a POS presence with hampering T3 availability?"

Firstly - rumours a POS in the system negatively affects the sig spawn rate. Would be good to know once and for all if thats right or not TBH.

Secondly - many or possibly even most of the POS I've seen exploring since release have had no T3 related gear. They have simply been placed in Sleeper space because its a safer place to build, well anything from carriers to T2 ammo from what I've seen. Visitors entering said systems to run the actual content have met with heavy dictors and other nastiness ^^

Of course POS set up to refine gas, minerals, build sub-systems etc are there too, its the other ones I'm talking about. From various random rants I've seen on GD I'm not the only one who has doubts this is "as intended." I'm biased of course though as I like exploring, roaming through Sleeper space and general blowing stuff up out there...

Jiks




I guess this isn't my experience. I live in W-Space, and we do not currently run gas processes, however, we DO clear out every site that spawns, stockpiling or selling the gasses/salvage/loot/ore/whatever.


There is a larger discussion on the wormholes both between w-space systems and to k-space in terms of both presence and mass and time variables.

As was mentioned in the past, the presence of starbases has nothing to do with the resource replenishment as its the presence of yourselves depleting the resources which causes them to dry up and running efficient operations. The systems were never designed to favour permanent settlement but we are looking at diversifying wormhole space to about more than just Tech III and a small amount of isk income from sleeper tags and will look into allowing more w-w space connections so you can go deeper in and find your way to bat country perhaps.

Jiks
Caldari
Prophets of Doom
Posted - 2009.06.11 08:59:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: CCP Chronotis
will look into allowing more w-w space connections so you can go deeper in and find your way to bat country perhaps.



Thanks Chronotis, sounds excellent!

Jiks

Jon Neeley001
Caldari
Handle and Tang Alliance
Posted - 2009.06.11 11:18:00 - [76]
 

Great posts, man like what i see.

Since you were spilling information, can you confirm if this is a accurate page http://wiki.eveonline.com/wiki/Wormhole_Reference


if its true seems to me a wolf-raynet and a pulsar anomalies favour armour tankers strongly, while no anomalies seem to favour sheild tanks more that armour.

thanks

steave435
Caldari
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.06.11 13:01:00 - [77]
 

Originally by: Brolly
Drops may increase,but it doesn't mean prices will go down, just means a greater profit margin for the industrialists :)

I can see the backlash now where people all over the forums are going to whine at CCP because the manufacturors aren't going to lower prices much :D

Awww, what's that?, 'carebears' not letting you have your shiny ships for a low price Laughing

It's all about supply and demand, kid.

If drops increase, there will be more stuff that need to be sold. The industrials will want to sell it, but if they keep putting up their stuff at the same price, they will not be able to sell it all since there is not enough people willing to buy at that price. Therefore, they have to lower the price they sell it at to make more people feel that it's worth the price they'd have to pay for it.

Blane Xero
Amarr
The Firestorm Cartel
Posted - 2009.06.12 03:21:00 - [78]
 

Originally by: Jon Neeley001
Great posts, man like what i see.

Since you were spilling information, can you confirm if this is a accurate page http://wiki.eveonline.com/wiki/Wormhole_Reference


if its true seems to me a wolf-raynet and a pulsar anomalies favour armour tankers strongly, while no anomalies seem to favour sheild tanks more that armour.

thanks


Pulsar is really good for passive shield tanked ships, just FYI.

Usagi Tsukino
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2009.06.12 04:33:00 - [79]
 

Originally by: rubico1337
Originally by: Robot Robot
can i just sneak in here to ask if this patch is going to... um... fix the scanning interface


i second this

Third, oh GOD, third.

FabriceGP
Amarr
Cold War Unit
Posted - 2009.06.12 14:54:00 - [80]
 

I'd like to say two things about my feeling on general t3 layouts.

First, the drones : how comes so few subsystems give a dronebay ? On the legion the dronebay is astounding making it very practical on many circumstances, but when heavyer dps is needed we cannot use this subsystem and then the ship itself becomes extremely vulnerable against small ships. "oh lolol we destroyed a legion with 3 tech 1 frigates lolol". I think sincelery that offensive subsystems giving bonuses to guns should always give at least a 25m3 dronebay with the bandwidth for 5 light drones, on all t3 ships of course.

Second : range bonuses and specializations. how comes the Tengu has an ecm range bonus, the loki has a web range bonus, the proteus has a warp scrambler/disruptor range bonus ?
On his part , the legion has a bonus on neutraliziing strength but without any range bonus on them. so first, bonuses on other races first affect med slots and for modules which don't eat almost any capacitor while the legion still needs quite big capacitor amount to only hope the capacitor neutralization will work (you only need a cap booster or a nosferatu to delay the neutralization effect, and neutra, as you all know, just make all passive tanking shield ships / missile/projectile boats just laugh). Webifying works alwyas, scramble as well, and ecm... erm not even usefull to say what I think about jamming. just much too powerfull, it's still the I win button. Long explanation I know, but I think this "problem" has to be taken in account when you will start working on rebalancing the subsystem bonuses and/or roles.

about the "augmented capacitor resevoir" on the legion : +1 high slot, +1 turret slot, ok , but how about a +1 launcher slot ? Good to see a khanid oriented subsystem but it's only true if slot bonuses reflect the choice on all configurations.

I think the "assault optimization" subsystem should give a bonus to cargohold, since compared to other subsystems the ship will need to store the missiles added to cap booster charges and other stuff.

A question now, about the tech3 bpc I realized before I knew that the number of runs will surely be changed, will the existing 3 runs bpc in my hangar be changed to 10 runs bpc ? Or will I just have to sit down on the 7 "lost" runs ? (I let you count the amount of isks lost with 7 bpc of 3 runs each)

Ben Derindar
Dirty Deeds Corp.
Posted - 2009.06.13 00:24:00 - [81]
 

Originally by: Treelox
do we have a rough ETA on this patches deployment yet?

Good question... Question

/Ben

Rika I
Caldari
Tomoe Laboratories
Celestial Imperative
Posted - 2009.06.13 00:34:00 - [82]
 

Chronotis, you know nothing about the game economy and don't care at all about veteran/fulltime industrialists! Evil or Very Mad

This is just like when invention first came out. It was perfect with it's original release but then you kept making it easier and cheaper until any newbie or alt could do it... and you kept making these changes so fast that the market never had time to stabilize!

The same is true now: The t3 market hasn't yet stabilized and prices will go down more by themselves without your changes. If you keep making it cheaper, it'll become just as bad as t1 and invention where all the "materials I acquire myself are free" idiots ruin everyone's profits.


Short version:
* Wait for a new market to stabilize BEFORE making changes to it.
* High end stuff needs a high barrier of entry (both isk and skill-wise) so that veteran/fulltime industrialists can make decent profits while keeping out the "materials I acquire myself are free" idiots! Idea

Josehpine
Posted - 2009.06.13 08:26:00 - [83]
 

Well, that announcement really wasnt a good idea. You completely crashed the T3 market. And with no timeframe announced when this stuff will hit TQ it will stay for that quite a while. Everybody is selling off what they have at ridicoulus prices, afraid they will get even less money for it when the changes hit TQ.

All T3 manufactueres are unemployed now.

Also the changes werent necessary at this time. The profit margins on T3 production where still a 100% + before you announced the changes. With some more competition on the manufactureres side those prices would have steadily decreased, instead of having a big crash!


Shadowsword
The Rough Riders
Ares Protectiva
Posted - 2009.06.13 14:13:00 - [84]
 

Originally by: Josehpine
Well, that announcement really wasnt a good idea. You completely crashed the T3 market. And with no timeframe announced when this stuff will hit TQ it will stay for that quite a while. Everybody is selling off what they have at ridicoulus prices, afraid they will get even less money for it when the changes hit TQ.

All T3 manufactueres are unemployed now.

Also the changes werent necessary at this time. The profit margins on T3 production where still a 100% + before you announced the changes. With some more competition on the manufactureres side those prices would have steadily decreased, instead of having a big crash!





You and the poster above obviously care only about your own little personnal situations, and not about game balance as a whole... T3 cruisers at 1,5B are ridiculous, period. It needs changing.

Anyone with a clue knew something like that was coming, and pretty soon. If you invested in a market segment that was bound to change drastically, it's your own fault if you get burned fingers.

Letrange
Minmatar
Red Horizon Inc
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2009.06.13 17:10:00 - [85]
 

@all the "fix the scanning suff guys"... um wrong dev? I'm sure there's a dev that'll be more appropriate to ask about that. Chronotis tends to be the industrial side of the designs - we can blame him for the carbon-86 and NIM issues but not for the scanning ones.

Veebora
Caldari
Posted - 2009.06.15 03:46:00 - [86]
 

It would be nice having T3 really in game, because now it is like a trophy for rich people.

Anyway I hope you will put some real stuff on next expansion, some common and useful T1 stuff that everybody can have access.

Lyvanna Kitaen
Minmatar
Noonday Sun Corp
Posted - 2009.06.15 05:04:00 - [87]
 

Originally by: Letrange
@all the "fix the scanning suff guys"... um wrong dev? I'm sure there's a dev that'll be more appropriate to ask about that. Chronotis tends to be the industrial side of the designs - we can blame him for the carbon-86 and NIM issues but not for the scanning ones.


You're not going to get *any* T3 stuff without scanning. Scanning is the root game mechanic for finding wormholes and sites.

King Tope
Posted - 2009.06.15 12:14:00 - [88]
 

Edited by: King Tope on 15/06/2009 17:20:00
Edited by: King Tope on 15/06/2009 13:34:59
Originally by: Lyvanna Kitaen
Originally by: Letrange
@all the "fix the scanning suff guys"... um wrong dev? I'm sure there's a dev that'll be more appropriate to ask about that. Chronotis tends to be the industrial side of the designs - we can blame him for the carbon-86 and NIM issues but not for the scanning ones.


You're not going to get *any* T3 stuff without scanning. Scanning is the root game mechanic for finding wormholes and sites.


Are you nuts??

if you buy a car and the gas station is running dry of fuel, because of a supply lack of fuel, when you donīt blame the car seller!

hmm maybe YOU would blame him, because he has to secure the fuel supply.

*shakinghead*

Josehpine
Posted - 2009.06.16 20:38:00 - [89]
 

Originally by: Shadowsword

Anyone with a clue knew something like that was coming, and pretty soon. If you invested in a market segment that was bound to change drastically, it's your own fault if you get burned fingers.


No, you dont have a clue since you dont manufacture the ships. They are overpriced of course, but thats not due to the lack of supply, but mainly due to the lack of competition on manufacturer side, as the profit margins were way above 100% per ship. No other item in eve that you can manufacture offers that on every single regional market!

CCP should have waited at least another few months till there was more competition and the market would have settled down. After that you can make right decisions with how much youre going to tweak what, without screwing everything up.

And there's still the timeframe missing for the release

Kell Braugh
Dawn of a new Empire
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.06.16 21:29:00 - [90]
 

Originally by: EliteSlave
So what about t2 production?

what about Moon mining shortages?




was this a serious question coming from a MM guy?


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