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Washell Olivaw
Posted - 2009.06.05 12:35:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Myra2007
edit: looking back in the devblog archive it appears you promised the 2nd(!) qen of 2008 for december. Then you never said a word again, now fast forward to june 2009 and we get the 1.qen 2009. So if i am not mistaken the 2nd, 3rd and 4th qen 2008 got dropped? Not to be offensive but quite frankly how about you restrict yourself to half-year reports that are only somewhere between 3-6 months late - sounds more realistic to me. Yeah, sorry that was offensive but this is indeed nothing more than a joke now.


POS exploit and Icelands bankruptcy strike your '08Q4 report perfectly for a gazillion dmg.

Lone Gunman
Forhotea Corporation
Posted - 2009.06.05 14:22:00 - [32]
 

Edited by: Lone Gunman on 05/06/2009 14:23:15
I Find your lack of Statistics concerning Alchemy... Disturbing.

Sable Schroedinger
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2009.06.05 14:49:00 - [33]
 

Mirroring a few comments, I'd be interested in seeing a comparison between isk per character split by active, trial accounts and all, isk by corp (corp wallets), and isk per player - so summing all isk on all characters owned by the same person/credit card. This last figure reflecting the true spend power of an Eve player.

/me settles down to some lengthy reading

Lake
The Praxis Initiative
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2009.06.05 15:05:00 - [34]
 

Something I would like to see explored, which has ramifications for lowsec:

Where do the mid-range minerals come from? EVE's architecture going back to release assumes low ends in high sec, mid-range in low sec, and high end minerals in nullsec.

However we've been living in a game world where the low end ores are actually more valuable (per cubic meter, the metric that matters) than the mid-range ores that provide the mid-range minerals.

This pulls the rug out from under the low-sec ecosystem. No miners to pirate, no pirates to hunt, etc.

There's been a great deal of speculation as to why the mid-range mineral values are so depressed. Mining itself can't seem to produce this upside-down relationship as people generally stop mining harder to get ores when they're worth less than more common ores.

I suspect the issue lies with loot tables. There is no player choice in what loot is acquired, you sell whatever drops. If what drops is a module that's worth more for its mineral content than its use, it gets refined. Drone-alloys with mid-range minerals in them drop at whatever rate the loot tables say they will, and get refined and marketed regardless of their value.

So is it as we suspect? Is lowsec so maligned because of the mission loot? Or is it something nobody has yet guessed?

We can't find that answer ourselves. But you can run the numbers and tell us. Then maybe some brilliant idea will be put forth and we can get EVE's architecture right-side-up again.

Elaron
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2009.06.05 15:57:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: CCP Spectrum
Mostly data like this is used now for internal game design, which is of course great, but expect some of these to trickle down to the players in some form or another as well as a lot of other interesting data.

Is information like which has been presented here and in the other recent statistics dev blog evaluated by the balance team? The sample size should be big enough to allow valid conclusions to be drawn with respect to perceived relative racial balance from questions like "What is the relative racial proportion of battleships used in PvP by characters who are trained to use the vessels of multiple races?"

The data from questions like that should allow them to focus their attention on working out whether there is a real balance issue and whether changes are appropriate.

Darth Sith
Genbuku.
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2009.06.05 17:15:00 - [36]
 

It would be nice to see some commentary on the current prices / trends by the developers. The data is great and thankyou for the update however it would be nice to see it in context.

For example : Trit jumped from 2 isk -> 4+ ISK / unit since the removal of NPC shuttle production. This is <inline / higher / lower> then we expected.

I used to really enjoy the data on ship types purchased / destroyed relative to each other to give some insite as to where the market is trending. For example, since T2 command cruisers are 2 x their original price, the population has migrated to what ?.

Last comment: Less shiny pictures in the QEN please. While is serves it's purpose of making the document look pretty and larger then it actually is, it is a whole lot of wasted toner and scrolling when trying to print or read the document ;)


Darth

Thoraemond
Minmatar
Far Ranger
Posted - 2009.06.05 17:20:00 - [37]
 

Edited by: Thoraemond on 05/06/2009 17:23:48
Edit: Added shameless plug for my own graphs.


Glad to see another 'Q'EN after so long. Hopefully the next (2009-Q2) will be out in a month or two.

Improving the QEN

Figure 4 (ISK in wallets per account) would be a lot more interesting with three simple improvements:
  1. More bins on the x-axis;

  2. logarithmic scale on the x-axis; and

  3. much higher upper bound for the top bin, e.g., 1 trillion ISK.


It would also be nice to see more graphs of statistics that can't simply be read off the ingame market history tables, e.g.:
  1. velocity of ISK;

  2. number of manufacturing jobs completed, by (a) Technology Level and (b) item category;

  3. number of invention jobs completed, by (a) Technology Level and (b) item category;

  4. LPs cashed in, by (a) faction, (b) corporation, and (c) reward category.


My own charts

For you graph-lovers out there, here is a shameless plug for my own charts: Pilots by Post Frequency, Jita Local.

IVeige
Caldari
IVever.
Posted - 2009.06.05 21:58:00 - [38]
 

hey ccp, how about giving your players the ability to reach those stats.

maybe an option in the markets 'advance statistics' for every item. Upgrading at downtime showing how many are produce, sold for that day etc etc. you know stuff like that.

Maren Maen
Posted - 2009.06.06 04:25:00 - [39]
 

Regarding the skillpoint distribution: Was that a snapshot as of 31 March 09? It's been a while since then, and I've crossed 100m SPs in the interim, so basically I'm wondering if I'm one of those 120 people or not.

Thanks.

BlondieBC
Minmatar
Galactic Exploration and Missions
Posted - 2009.06.06 05:29:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Treelox
....so does this mean we are going to pretend now that the failure to publish Q2,Q3, and Q4 of 2008 never happened?


yes Rolling Eyes

Soren
PAK
Posted - 2009.06.06 05:39:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: CCP Spectrum
Edited by: CCP Spectrum on 05/06/2009 09:30:18
Originally by: DigitalCommunist

Show us instead:

- the average number of jumps a character makes in a day, assuming they make at least one
- how many of those are freighters and capitals
- how people are distributed in high sec, low sec, 0.0 and wh space (total distribution and active in-space distribution)
- how many people are mining/npcing/agenting on average in any given day
- percentage breakdowns for all the isk generation sources in EVE (I suspect insurance generates more than it sinks)



These are all great points and since I'm the resident in-game data mining and data warehousing dude let me just say that they are all being worked on and most actually quite ready. Mostly data like this is used now for internal game design, which is of course great, but expect some of these to trickle down to the players in some form or another as well as a lot of other interesting data.


spanks ;)

Garia666
Amarr
T.H.U.G L.I.F.E
Xenon-Empire
Posted - 2009.06.06 08:07:00 - [42]
 

a bit enoying that this QEN says what i have been saying for many many years.

Trust is the most important thing in this game. besides anything.


Clurk Brodon
Yog-Sothoth Heavy Industries
Posted - 2009.06.06 08:49:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Lake
Where do the mid-range minerals come from?

Drone compounds.
The low sec ores (Jaspet, Hemorphite, Hedbergite) are worthless because the market is flooded with cheap nocxium from the Lustering Alloy drops.

Martineth
Posted - 2009.06.06 09:44:00 - [44]
 

Thank you very much for sharing this information with us. The most important thing for me is to know that CCP i sharing allot of information and thoughts on this common think-tank-playground with us.

Makes me feel like a part of EvE just as much as in game activity does.

Once again, thank you Dr. Eyjˇlfur Gu­mundsson

Very HappyVery HappyVery Happy

Nur AlHuda
Amarr
Callide Vulpis
Posted - 2009.06.06 11:58:00 - [45]
 

Edited by: Nur AlHuda on 06/06/2009 11:59:10
Edited by: Nur AlHuda on 06/06/2009 11:58:50
So in short wormhole space and t3 production is total disaster. Altough the price dropped from 2 bil to 500 still most people are not even remotely interested to venture to wormhole space and risk their faction fitted fleets due to the pirates danger and sleepers at the same time.


Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2009.06.06 12:06:00 - [46]
 

Edited by: Kerfira on 06/06/2009 12:24:28
Originally by: Lake
...
Where do the mid-range minerals come from?
...
I suspect the issue lies with loot tables. There is no player choice in what loot is acquired, you sell whatever drops. If what drops is a module that's worth more for its mineral content than its use, it gets refined. Drone-alloys with mid-range minerals in them drop at whatever rate the loot tables say they will, and get refined and marketed regardless of their value.

To give you some numbers on this, I've been gathering data on L4 mission income over the last couple of weeks that might be useful to you.

Basically, I've been running a Golem (w. a high-spec'd but not perfect character), and have been looting and salvaging EVERYTHING (using a salvage fitted Drake). I've only used the one character for both fighting and looting/salvaging, changing ships as I need.

Salvage price used is lowest Jita sell price, and loot valued is lowest Jita sell mineral price. Named items are calculated by mineral value. LP's are valued at 1800 ISK/LP (which is what I get).

Note that since I do things in an 'inefficient' way (ie. looting/salvaging when I probably shouldn't), I would spend more time than optimal, and estimated earnings would be lower than what I'd actually get if I sold the named items.

Total missions so far: 21 (all random combat)
Total income: 506m ISK
Average income per minute: 690,999 ISK

Earnings breakdown:
Bounties: 27% (ISK)
Reward: 37% (LP & ISK)
Salvage: 19% (component price)
Loot: 17% (mineral value)

So, relating to your post, I'd be generating just over 7m ISK worth of minerals every hour, spread relatively evenly over all types.
That in itself is very close to as good as you can get with an optimised Hulk mining Veld (remember I'm only using 1 account), and you still get the other 34m ISK/hour on top of that!

To be honest, what I think should be done with L4's (and ratting) is that all basic T1 items should be removed from the loot tables. Let there be a distinct separation on which activity creates which resources. One type of resource is generated by one type of activity.

Minerals: Created (almost...) solely by mining
Moon Minerals: Created solely by moon mining (as now)
Salvage: Created solely from salvage (as now)
Named items: Created solely from looting (as now)
etc...

Named items should (as they generally are now) only refine into maybe 1/10th of the minerals of the basic T1 items they are based on, or maybe they should refine into a completely new type of resource used for *something*.
Realistically, they do have to be convertible into something else since otherwise we'd end up with endless amounts of the 'useless' ones.

ISK generation is somewhat of a much more complex beast, so I'll leave that out of this.

Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.06.06 15:22:00 - [47]
 

Edited by: Haniblecter Teg on 06/06/2009 15:26:11
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
An aholes opinion



I hope someone decs your ass.


I almost hate reading the comments following an Econ post because there's invariably going to be some armchair economist that's going to blast it for not being 'edgy' or 'informative' enough.

Screw these jerks, its an awesome read, and a feature that no other MMO has.

****s.

Clurk Brodon
Yog-Sothoth Heavy Industries
Posted - 2009.06.06 16:49:00 - [48]
 

I'm sure Digi is afraid of war decs... Rolling Eyes
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
a feature that no other MMO has.

That's the whole point. Eve's unique economy deserves better.

Gamer4liff
Caldari
Metalworks
Majesta Empire
Posted - 2009.06.07 02:08:00 - [49]
 

Top 10% holding 88% of all isk? Man, this liberopia market system does not disappoint.

Anyway, thanks for this but I'm still more interested in T2 production, namely who makes what with what system and how much marketshare they have. That kind of thing.

Ariane VoxDei
Posted - 2009.06.07 19:15:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Lake
...
clueless drivel
...
What a waste of people time to post that.
Everyone, that is, everyone who is observant or cares to know, knows that drone compounds is the killer for lowsec ore. Oh and the removal of the shuttle sell orders (trit price cap).
Before the age of the drone regions and the trit cap age, mineral market was very different for a number of minerals, particularly nocx, trit and isogen (omber, which has given name to Omber Zombie, CSM).

Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.06.08 01:31:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: CCP Spectrum
Edited by: CCP Spectrum on 05/06/2009 09:30:18
Originally by: DigitalCommunist

Show us instead:

- the average number of jumps a character makes in a day, assuming they make at least one
- how many of those are freighters and capitals
- how people are distributed in high sec, low sec, 0.0 and wh space (total distribution and active in-space distribution)
- how many people are mining/npcing/agenting on average in any given day
- percentage breakdowns for all the isk generation sources in EVE (I suspect insurance generates more than it sinks)



These are all great points and since I'm the resident in-game data mining and data warehousing dude let me just say that they are all being worked on and most actually quite ready. Mostly data like this is used now for internal game design, which is of course great, but expect some of these to trickle down to the players in some form or another as well as a lot of other interesting data.


DC's post really hits the nail on the head.

After reading the QEN I was left feeling only moderately informed about stuff that was either irrelevant or information that was simply 'safe' and has little to no application.

The majority of the published data doesn't provide any new insight into the inner workings of Eve. Like DC said, it's mostly useless fluff.

In addition to DC's suggestions about player activity statistics, I'd like to see some info on ships. That is, actual meaningful info instead of the stuff in the latest QEN. to wit:

Volume of each ship type produced for the quarter, how many currently exist, how many were destroyed, breakdown of type of loss (PVP, PVE, Concord, self destructed/recycled).

Where ships were destroyed via PVP: High sec, Lowsec, 0.0, and a breakdown of which classes/ship types in each area.

Ships participating in kills: number of each ship type involved, total damage in HP done by each ship type.

Weapons used- number of times each type of weapon shows up on a killmail, the amount of damage done per weapon in total. I know this can be a bit buggy due to the way killmails can be generated with weird weapons listed, but any data is better than no data.

I think that there are a large number of pilots out there interested in detailed combat data but I also think that CCP will never give the players such a thing as the data may prove too pointed and revealing.

What say you CCP? (CCP Spectrum?)

Louis deGuerre
Gallente
Malevolence.
Posted - 2009.06.08 08:15:00 - [52]
 

It's nice to see this again, I thought they'd fired the economist Razz

I wasn't very interested in the skillpoint thing, but the economic data is always interesting.

Hope to see the next one in the next quarter Razz

Lake
The Praxis Initiative
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2009.06.08 10:37:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Clurk Brodon
Originally by: Lake
Where do the mid-range minerals come from?

Drone compounds.
The low sec ores (Jaspet, Hemorphite, Hedbergite) are worthless because the market is flooded with cheap nocxium from the Lustering Alloy drops.


Aha! Thank you very much. I was, obviously, unaware of that thread. And a little surprised no one pointed it out to me earlier Wink

John McCreedy
Caldari
Eve Defence Force
Posted - 2009.06.08 18:55:00 - [54]
 

I'm interested to know how you measure subscribers since most people have multiple accounts and many pay for their subscriptions with in-game currency. Is the 300,000 mark genuine subscribers or subscriptions?

It's not that I'm doubting this figure, I'm simply interested to know how you gather accurate data of that kind?

Cheers

J

CCP Eris Discordia

Posted - 2009.06.08 22:14:00 - [55]
 

Regarding publishing player behaviour data to players. Right now it's a 'maybe' and I'd like to know why or how you would use that data.

For instance if a game designers finds out something that indicates player behaviour is not adhering to what they had in mind it could mean something needs to be changed/nerfed/booster etc.

I'm not sure why a player would care how many jumps(average) are made in a playsession of eve. It would be useful to know though why you'd like this kind of data Smile

We are working on bringing more data to people on a regular basis in game, general and economic data that could be useful ingame. ( sov map changes, price of trit somewhere etc)

Treelox
Posted - 2009.06.09 13:20:00 - [56]
 

Edited by: Treelox on 09/06/2009 13:21:23
Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia
Regarding publishing player behaviour data to players. Right now it's a 'maybe' and I'd like to know why or how you would use that data.

For instance if a game designers finds out something that indicates player behaviour is not adhering to what they had in mind it could mean something needs to be changed/nerfed/booster etc.

I'm not sure why a player would care how many jumps(average) are made in a playsession of eve. It would be useful to know though why you'd like this kind of data Smile

We are working on bringing more data to people on a regular basis in game, general and economic data that could be useful ingame. ( sov map changes, price of trit somewhere etc)


Firstly, I think most of us would want that info, because a lot of us are closet data/stat junkies.

Secondly, a fair few of us hope to be able to glean enough data to improve our market pvp, depending on how much and what data CCP would exactly make open to us.

It's EVE lady, every single piece of info has the potential to help us overcome the other player, "PVP Datamining" FTW!!



---edit
fixed random typo that changed the whole meaning of life, and ruined 42

CCP Dr.EyjoG

Posted - 2009.06.09 18:41:00 - [57]
 

Several people have asked about the 2008 QENs that are not yet published. They are currently backlogged. We will work on them at the same time as the 2009 QENs, but the 2009 QENs will of course get the priority.

And thanks for all the requests and comments on the content. Next week we will finalize the content for the next QEN and we will use these comments and requests to guide us when deciding what will be included in the next QEN.


Letrange
Minmatar
Red Horizon Inc
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2009.06.09 21:15:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: CCP Dr.EyjoG
Several people have asked about the 2008 QENs that are not yet published. They are currently backlogged. We will work on them at the same time as the 2009 QENs, but the 2009 QENs will of course get the priority.

And thanks for all the requests and comments on the content. Next week we will finalize the content for the next QEN and we will use these comments and requests to guide us when deciding what will be included in the next QEN.



Dr.EyogG, I think that we can safely say that you got swamped by the mountain of data and various events that are EvE. Just out of curiosity, what was the biggest thing you underestimated when you took on the job of "Chief Economist of EvE"?

Slave 2739FKZ
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.06.10 11:16:00 - [59]
 

Iw ould like to know way mroe abotu weath distribution, for example, how many ISK & active assets are sitting idle in "bitter vets" accounts (people who been playing for logn and quitted), they are known to be the biggest ISK sink in the game Twisted Evil (kiddin').

Roemy Schneider
Vanishing Point.
Posted - 2009.06.10 15:51:00 - [60]
 

Edited by: Roemy Schneider on 10/06/2009 15:51:49
the snapshots were the most interesting part.
most were unsurprising and useless but still cute to know.

isk per payed acc? hold on, let me distribute my billions across some of them alts.

SP distro? believing in the law of large numbers eh? still, contrary to the short-breathed assumption, the large number of alts actually throws out any clean deduction. see falcon alts.

t3. seriously? i believe in market forces, too, but looking at it till march? extrapolating and calling it "preview"..? just... wow...

the evoke scandal... "primary reason"... aha..... whatever they did, it does not explain a >100% price spike of dysprosium. stop blaming others for sticking to ingredient pools - with a limited supply to boot

a propos ingredient pools: yes, it's oh so surprising that apocs havent risen in price while enjoy twice the popularity. this is roughly the point where one should begin doubting the freedom of eve market forces.
yup, chinese capitalism comes to mind (what... i didnt start the rl eco comparisons)
in case you may feel insulted, compare all(!) armor rigs to shield rigs.

but my facepalming always starts with the consumer index. i had hoped that the initial asessment of players requiring more money to replace a ship and thus having more money saved would break the ole' deflation routine that's been false ever since, but alas...
facepalm-evolutions could be witnessed to the following sentence: "An interesting item here is the Cap Recharger II - a very popular item for both PvPers as well as PvEers"
literallyly followed by deriving "the effectiveness of the markets in EVE" from t1 125 mm AC. an item worth 1600isk




hook up omberzombie with the statistical departement and improve EVE with some meaningful numbers and deductions, based on game knowledge and experience plz?


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