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Dex Nederland
Caldari
Lai Dai Infinity Systems
Posted - 2009.06.11 13:49:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: Raimo
Edited by: Raimo on 11/06/2009 13:33:21

Originally by: Dierdra Vaal
Edited by: Dierdra Vaal on 11/06/2009 11:55:43
to everyone who is unhappy with the FW issue voting results - sorry but Eve is more than just FW. Sure its not perfect, but other areas have just as many - if not more - problems. So ya, we didnt agree with a blanket 'higher development priority' for FW. Dont accuse us of only looking out for ourselves while demanding a higher development commitment to the small part of Eve you happen to play; you're doing exactly what you're accusing us of.




14.076 players/ characters is "a small part of EVE"? (Number is current from the IC FW stats page)

The lag affects everyone of them, and it's not "normal" EVE lag.

I'm not surprised that Larkonis voted for the lag issue, I'm pretty certain he has experienced it 1st hand...


Top 10 Alliances/Factions by number of members (11 June):
1. GOONSWARM - 5,735 members ( http://www.eve-maps.com/outpostalert/alliancerank.asp )
2. CALDARI STATE - 5,200 members ( http://fwstats.eve-ic.net/ )
3. MINMATAR REPUBLIC - 3,219 members ( http://fwstats.eve-ic.net/ )
4. KENZOKU - 3,141 members ( http://www.eve-maps.com/outpostalert/alliancerank.asp )
5. SHADOW OF XXDEATHXX - 3,048 members ( http://www.eve-maps.com/outpostalert/alliancerank.asp )
6. GALLENTE FEDERATION - 3,036 members ( http://fwstats.eve-ic.net/ )
7. MORUS MIHI - 2,741 members ( http://www.eve-maps.com/outpostalert/alliancerank.asp )
8. AMARR EMPIRE - 2,624 members ( http://fwstats.eve-ic.net/ )
9. AGAINST ALL AUTHORITIES - 2,159 members ( http://www.eve-maps.com/outpostalert/alliancerank.asp )
10. INTREPID CROSSING - 1,929 members ( http://www.eve-maps.com/outpostalert/alliancerank.asp )

4 of the 8 largest organizations in Eve are the Factions.

Lord Zekk
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
The Fourth District
Posted - 2009.06.11 13:54:00 - [62]
 

Edited by: Lord Zekk on 11/06/2009 13:58:01
The CMS truly do fail. I am currently very upset while posting this so ignore the tone and look at what I'm actually saying.

All the comments for FW have been very valid and well backed up.

Lag is not a serious enough ****ing issue yet? Seriously!!!
If you couldn't take out a 25 HAC gang in 0.0 and get into a fight without experiencing game breaking lag how would you feel?

There are more than enough players in faction warfare and we all deserve a bit a of a voice. We have been complaining on the forums and to my knowledge have not received any sort of response for the last year other than "we're working on it"

HOWEVER they have managed to make things worse by introducing cloaked plexing! How in the name of GOD did they find time to make FW worse?

Understand this. FW is not a bit off and doesn't need a little work. IT IS SERIOUSLY BROKEN!!! IT AFFECTS EVERYONE IN LOW SEC! (That means FW guys, pirates and every other Tom, **** and Harry that decides to fly through there)

Caldari captured all the Gal systems. Now what? What happened to everything else we were promised more that ONE YEAR back. Don't we deserve an update and an HONEST response?

Is addressing these issues too much to expect from the high and mighty CSM?

Dierdra Vaal
Caldari
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2009.06.11 14:13:00 - [63]
 

Edited by: Dierdra Vaal on 11/06/2009 14:38:52
David Caldera: With exclamations of "All 3 FW problems that was mentioned are very serious and must be brought up now" (and similarly demanding language was used in the issues themselves) it does look to me like FW pilots feel their part of the game deserves more attention that others. You might not feel that way, and maybe even the poster didnt intend it that way (in which case he/she should rephrase their request), but to me it reads like someone insisting that their demands are heard now.

The CSM isnt denying that FW needs attention (and in fact the lag issue only narrowly failed - perhaps partially due to a lacking explanation of the specific lag: note that my question during the issue discussion remained unanswered). We just dont agree it deserves a higher development priority at this point. CCP is working on it, just as they are working on other parts of the game. I actually talked to Erik after one of his issues was denied - I believe its a lot more likely to pass a specific issue than to simply ask for a higher priority for ALL of the FW development. In much the same vein I wouldnt support someone asking for a higher priority of 0.0 gameplay development.

Sure FW has its defects, but I have yet to meet a 0.0 pilot who feels the current sovereignity system is a good one (a system which has been in place for years, btw), and I'm hearing a lot of industry (esp. mining) pilots lament that their gameplay is in serious need of improvements. So why would FW deserve a higher development priority than 0.0, or industry, or any of the other many gameplay aspects?

Morphisat: CSM members can choose which topics to put on the agenda. If Vuk wants to discuss hull repping drones he can do so. If it makes you feel any better, the issue only took 2 minutes or so to discuss, so very little time was 'wasted'. And if you worry about CCP spending precious development time on it, these issues have NOT yet been prioritized by the CSM, and CCP will adjust the priorities themselves as well.

Raimo: 15K players seems like a lot (5% of the player base), but its eclipsed by the amount of players involved in 0.0, which in turn is eclipsed by the huge amount of players who stick to high sec. Hence why I said 'small part of eve'.

Furthermore I'd like to remind everyone there are still plenty of meetings ahead. So unbunch your panties and take a deep breath, FW issues still have plenty of oppurtunity to be brought up :)

Morphisat
Hidden Agenda
Deep Space Engineering
Posted - 2009.06.11 14:38:00 - [64]
 

Originally by: Dierdra Vaal

Morphisat: CSM members can choose which topics to put on the agenda. If Vuk wants to discuss hull repping drones he can do so. If it makes you feel any better, the issue only took 2 minutes or so to discuss, so very little time was 'wasted'. And if you worry about CCP spending precious development time on it, these issues have NOT yet been prioritized by the CSM, and CCP will adjust the priorities themselves as well.



Ah that's good to know. Thought it was weird that you discussed only a hand full of issues and some of these seemed to be rather trivial.

About industrial players: don't forget the ore respawn situation :).

Dex Nederland
Caldari
Lai Dai Infinity Systems
Posted - 2009.06.11 15:29:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: Dierdra Vaal
Furthermore I'd like to remind everyone there are still plenty of meetings ahead. So unbunch your panties and take a deep breath, FW issues still have plenty of oppurtunity to be brought up :)

Here is the thing; plenty of FW players feel that FW has an expiration date. As small/minor issues and problems (unintentional "features" like cloaked plexing) appear in FW the FW player base shrinks. As the numbers decrease (below 5%) the amount of thought CCP will put into will only decrease more and the issues will not be resolved.

There are plenty of features that are basically broken or incomplete and little played. I would hate to be the devs who worked hard on COSMOs only to have them be some minor part of the game an largely ignored by the player base. I would hate to be a dev who worked on FW only to have it slid off the menu because WIS is a higher priority.

0.0 POS spamming fiefdoms are basically required for people to fly 'high-end' ships be they T2 or Capitals. There is isk to be made (reward) and in some cases fun to be had. FW has no output at the moment, only inputs.

Perhaps we (FW advocates) need to push things in smaller components so that they can easily be chewed on (again fx cloaked plexing) by the CSM and CCP. Perhaps focus on a slew of more immediate fixes that should be included in future patches versus included in a future expansion. FW 1.123 vs FW 2.0.

Issues to address:
1. Cloaked Plexing
2. Plex Spawn rate
3. Low Security, low numbers in system (<50) lag

Others? Be ready to put these on the assembly and give the CSM who takes them on all the possible info they could want.

Erik Finnegan
Gallente
Polytechnique Gallenteenne
Posted - 2009.06.11 15:31:00 - [66]
 

Thank you Deirdra and Meissa in trying to cool off the emotions from FW players in this thread, which are quite understandable.

First off, while everyone expected FW issues to be on the CSM agenda early, it might not have been my best choice to do so, before getting to know the other CSM's way of thinking and how the issues need to be shaped to have a chance of finding consensus.

This term still is long, as we have only started off. Two points from my CSM colleagues are worth noting, I suggest, for the continued discussion: they do not want FW above other unfinished parts of the game, and the number of capsuleers engaged is not big enough. Both are absolutely valid positions. And it is never a question of how to change someone else's position.

The question to ask : how to amend the FW position so that it fits into the other's picture ?

Priority
We should drop this aspect. It is absolutely unimportant, which priority CSM wants CCP to attribute to any given issue. CCP will adjust the priorities to their idea anyway. Thus, if the suggested improvement is concise, compelling, marketable, then chances are good we will find FW higher up the priority scale without expliciting the position.

Relevance
More pilots need to be involved ? Well, let's not debate current figures nor wait for FW to gain followers. FW importance is not measured by the size of the militas alone.

Instead, I suggest we present issues, which will do both :
- involve more people with FW
- and improve the FW experience

How about the idea of small POSes, which was presented by Nyphur ? Every carebear dreams of having a home in space. Now, connect that longing for a home with FW, and you have all high-sec supporting something, which for you is a FW improvement. Would it be an idea to extend / replace the complex spawns by player built installations to fight about in order to gain occupancy ?

I guess, even Issler would want such a home. Even if it was subject to occasional destruction / siege by the opposing faction... Cool As a side effect, I would see these deployables as far better indicators for lag predictions. But I'm not a techie.


FW pilots, please be creative and think out of the box. That will bring up suggestions, which will be voted through to CCP.

David Caldera
Gallente
Strix Armaments and Defence
Posted - 2009.06.11 15:40:00 - [67]
 

Quote:
With exclamations of "All 3 FW problems that was mentioned are very serious and must be brought up now" (and similarly demanding language was used in the issues themselves) it does look to me like FW pilots feel their part of the game deserves more attention that others. You might not feel that way, and maybe even the poster didnt intend it that way (in which case he/she should rephrase their request), but to me it reads like someone insisting that their demands are heard now.
You may be right, but that's not the general attitude most Fw players adopt when it comes to the whole issue. (Though I must admit the forum is a cesspool that might give a totally different impression) I apoligise if anything I said so far implied a "want now" attitude to the issue, just so we're clear there. =)

Quote:
Sure FW has its defects, but I have yet to meet a 0.0 pilot who feels the current sovereignity system is a good one (a system which has been in place for years, btw), and I'm hearing a lot of industry (esp. mining) pilots lament that their gameplay is in serious need of improvements. So why would FW deserve a higher development priority than 0.0, or industry, or any of the other many gameplay aspects?
I understand what you're saying, but while 0.0 and industry are indeed in need of an overhaul, one can argue that their gameplay "works", in the sense that taking part in it has the potential of being rewarded, and due to their PvP dynamics, they have a life of their own. (Don't get me wrong; I'm not saying their mechanics are okay)

On the other hand we have FW, that never felt like it was completed. It's a wholly empty experience; a free wardec disguised as something special, with the added effect of totally ruining your faction standings for absolutely no compensation and being denied to Empire space. It's not hard to see why people leave because of that. On top of that, as I mentioned in my previous post, a front in FW has been completely conquered, with little chance for the Gallente to recover assuming they even care for it. (The latter being a player problem that can't really be changed I'm afraid) Now, the Gallente are sharpening their knives to ridicule the Caldari while they expect CCP to reset the whole thing, while meanwhile the Caldari demand they get some sort of reward for their plexing, which would cause great amounts of drama if CCP were to implement a thing to reward to Caldari *now*. (I hope you understand what I mean here)

Point is, FW was supposed to be more than a wardec, but it was never fully implemented. We're at a point where the entire FW experience (and with that I mean conquering territory, lore backstory, and just plain more depth in the whole thing) is blocked for the majority of the players.

Heck, most FW pilots would even be glad if we got a big explenation on what CCP is thinking about the whole thing. The fact that CCP is "aware" doesn't mean a whole lot. People want to know if it'll be worth sticking around.

Kuluskitur
Dominion Experiments
Posted - 2009.06.11 16:12:00 - [68]
 

Thank you to all the CSM that have bothered to write replies.

However, I do think that FW needs to have a higher priority. The CSM can come up with a lot of separate individual issues on how to improve FW, but Ankh already did that, the player already did that, and fanfest already did that. None of the things the CSM brought up in the past regarding FW got implemented, and meanwhile things start to break down (FW cloaking exploit, FW Occupancy map crash) which go unfixed, even unrecognized by CCP.

AT THE MOMENT WE CANNOT EVEN PROPERLY DEFEND SYSTEMS AND CAPTURE PLEXES IN FW BECAUSE LOADING THE OCCUPANCY MAP CRASHES THE GAME.

I don't think anyone is asking the CSM to prioritize FW above 0.0 or other important issues. We do not dismiss other aspects of the game. We're just asking you to convince CCP to raise FW from priority 100 to priority 20 so it at least gets a higher priority than combat simulators, as Ankh pointed out!

Sappho Ajhannis
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2009.06.11 16:24:00 - [69]
 

The reason why FW needs attention quickly is that the pve element is completely broken- and the main gripes could be lessened somewhat by relatively easy quick fixes. Other areas of the game are indeed unfinished/unsatisfactory, but not to the same extent as this element of FW.

Some of the changes that have been suggested- changing plex spawn times, preventing cloaky plexing, increasing FW mission rewards, and nerfing Caldari npc jamming- are not big things to implement, but would make the FW experience much better. I would like to think that a well written proposal suggesting something along these lines would be taken up by the CSM, but I worry that any point raised is going to be voted down.

Anyway, in the bigger picture, the problem of lack of risk vs reward and underpopulation in lowsec is as much a problem for the health of EVE as POS warfare being dull. As FW is one of the main drivers of people into lowsec, along with piracy, it deserves some love.

Dierdra Vaal
Caldari
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2009.06.11 17:23:00 - [70]
 

Well I admit I wasnt aware there were so many problems with FW (I only plex occasionally on my minmatar FW alt), so I'll see if we can do anything more to improve FW. :)

Mind you, I still stand by my votes from meeting #02 on the issues as they were presented there.

Nephilim Xeno
Caldari
24th Imperial Crusade
Posted - 2009.06.11 19:16:00 - [71]
 

guess the CSM is nothing more than a lobby for big 0.0 alliances to get themselfes heared while all people living in high sec or low sec are being left out.

also all of low sec seems to be affected by this lag, its just FW that has bigger fights regulary so that the problem is showing there far more than on other occasions.

and do 0.0 systems really need to be reinforced to handle 50 vs 50 fights without lag? i think not!

we dont ask for 500 vs 500 without lag, we just want 50 vs 50 to be playable ffs

CSM is completly useless for the average eve player

Dohl Khrensen
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2009.06.11 22:08:00 - [72]
 

While everyone's brainstorming on the 'out-of-the-box,' brilliant proposal to present to the CSM, I suggest we go general first.

General is here.

If something better comes along as the meetings with CCP come nearer, great. In the meantime, I'd feel more comfortatble knowing at least one general FW issue was going to be raised.

Dohl

Larkonis TrassIer
State Breast Inspectorate
Posted - 2009.06.11 22:47:00 - [73]
 

Originally by: Nephilim Xeno
guess the CSM is nothing more than a lobby for big 0.0 alliances to get themselfes heared while all people living in high sec or low sec are being left out.

also all of low sec seems to be affected by this lag, its just FW that has bigger fights regulary so that the problem is showing there far more than on other occasions.


Sup, Lowsec dwelling CSM delegate here.

I have been in fights in Lowsec with upwards of 100 participants with managable lag. I have also been in fights with less than 60 with horrible lag. The difference? Node reinforcement was requested for one and not for the other.
Due to the numbers involved I doubt CCP will ever allocate as many hamsters per system to Lowsec as they do to some parts of 0.0, added to that the predictability of a lot of the larger battles in 0.0 which revolve around stront timers and the like. It is generally easier to prepare a node for a battle in 0.0 than it is for lowsec, especially the FW areas where large fleets tend to bump into each other.

Take advantage of the systems that are in place, if you anticipate a big fight for a moon/bunker then petition to reinforce the node.

Sappho Ajhannis
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2009.06.11 23:22:00 - [74]
 

Battles in 0.0 are admittedly easier to predict. But larger FW fleet battles do often take place in only a handful of sytems. So bring the fights to where the servers can cope - If systems x y and z are known to have more server-side resources made available, people will go to x y and z to have their lag-free FW fleet fights. Not to mention pirates and other low-sec dwellers who might like a lag-free environment.

There's even a game tool there for ccp- want faction A to attack a system? Stick an order in the motd saying 'this week faction a are requested to attack etc etc..' Shift server resources to support that system.. FW players know they'll get some lag free fights there, and FW campaigns become a bit less random and more story driven = good things.

Nephilim Xeno
Caldari
24th Imperial Crusade
Posted - 2009.06.11 23:34:00 - [75]
 

95% of all fights in FW always happen in the same systems anyway and there arent that many of them

also comparing this huge 0.0 blobs to FW is just stupid, i already stated we would never need that many hamsters than 0.0 does

another fact is that this lag wasnt always there, at the beginning of FW the lag was just fine and fleets usually much bigger than the ones now.

atm you get more lag in a 25 vs 25 battle than you got in a 100 vs 100 battle at the beginning of FW

that lag started about the time QR was applied and lasted until apocrypha, at the beginning of apo that lag was still there

then after a few weeks of really bad lag it was suddently gone and returned a few months later

without a single update on this issue from ccp !

i also suggest the people that have no clue about this issue and just say "deal with it" should join FW and get into one of this
lag battle themselfes before they make comments on this issue

Raimo
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2009.06.12 06:54:00 - [76]
 

Originally by: Larkonis TrassIer


Take advantage of the systems that are in place, if you anticipate a big fight for a moon/bunker then petition to reinforce the node.



So should we petition Tama and similar systems every night? Local often reaches 100+ and if it was known that the server can support it larger fights would be more common... Even now 40-50+ on grid happens almost nightly.

Also, you do remember that the "FW lag" has not always been there, like Nephilim pointed out? It seems to be not just about the hamsters and CCP have admitted to something along those lines... We just want progress and at the very least updates on this issue.

lucifers widow
United Front Alliance renting corp
Posted - 2009.06.12 08:10:00 - [77]
 

Originally by: Dierdra Vaal
Edited by: Dierdra Vaal on 11/06/2009 14:38:52
David Caldera: With exclamations of "All 3 FW problems that was mentioned are very serious and must be brought up now" (and similarly demanding language was used in the issues themselves) it does look to me like FW pilots feel their part of the game deserves more attention that others. You might not feel that way, and maybe even the poster didnt intend it that way (in which case he/she should rephrase their request), but to me it reads like someone insisting that their demands are heard now.

The CSM isnt denying that FW needs attention (and in fact the lag issue only narrowly failed - perhaps partially due to a lacking explanation of the specific lag: note that my question during the issue discussion remained unanswered). We just dont agree it deserves a higher development priority at this point. CCP is working on it, just as they are working on other parts of the game. I actually talked to Erik after one of his issues was denied - I believe its a lot more likely to pass a specific issue than to simply ask for a higher priority for ALL of the FW development. In much the same vein I wouldnt support someone asking for a higher priority of 0.0 gameplay development.

Sure FW has its defects, but I have yet to meet a 0.0 pilot who feels the current sovereignity system is a good one (a system which has been in place for years, btw), and I'm hearing a lot of industry (esp. mining) pilots lament that their gameplay is in serious need of improvements. So why would FW deserve a higher development priority than 0.0, or industry, or any of the other many gameplay aspects?



Raimo: 15K players seems like a lot (5% of the player base), but its eclipsed by the amount of players involved in 0.0, which in turn is eclipsed by the huge amount of players who stick to high sec. Hence why I said 'small part of eve'.




First up I not think I've ever seen anyone in FW say they deserve special treatment, all we are really asking for is a fix to the lag in maybe no more than 8 systems, is that truely too much to ask ? ( esp as it was fixed for a week or so then strangely "broken" again once we got used to running fleets of more than with minimal lag ).

We even put did organised fights with set numbers with logs running to help but nothing other than a "thanks" from ccp was ever heard from for us doing this.

As new content surely it deserves some attention, even just to iron out a few of the issues ?

All of you're examples of people who " are more important " are rubbish tbh, 0.0 player and sov fair enough needs looking at, but what if these players couldn't undock in a gang of more than 15 withuot being lagged out if found a fight ?

Industry fair enough need some love, but miners etc not seem to struggle with lag when turning on strips so much do they ?

TraininVain
Posted - 2009.06.12 10:30:00 - [78]
 

Edited by: TraininVain on 12/06/2009 10:38:05
****balls tbh.

Bit of a failure on the FW front.

I guess some of the proposals weren't necessarily that well worded but I'm completely unimpressed with the discussions that followed on 2/3 of the issues.

I don't think the majority of the CSM understand some of the issues involved in some of the issues at all to be perfectly honest.

Nyphur
Pillowsoft
Posted - 2009.06.12 12:14:00 - [79]
 

Originally by: Dierdra Vaal
Well I admit I wasnt aware there were so many problems with FW (I only plex occasionally on my minmatar FW alt), so I'll see if we can do anything more to improve FW. :)

Mind you, I still stand by my votes from meeting #02 on the issues as they were presented there.

With all due respect, if you haven't researched a topic well enough to consider yourself completely informed, should you really be voting on it? There are plenty of people you could have spoken with who could provide you with a condensed summary of the issues to help you prepare for the meeting. There's also documentation of the complaints about FW raised to the last CSM which were shot down by CSM members who hadn't even tried FW.

I played in faction warfare from its release until the apocrypha expansion. The build-up was some awesome storyline and it indicated that FW was to be CCP's new big thing. The beginning of FW was fantastic, with diverse fleets roaming around capping plexes and fighting whatever they could find. Although plexing quickly lost its appeal when it became clear that system ownership was worthless, there was still tons of awesome PvP to be had and it kept my corp entertained for months. We had small gang PvP with destroyers, frigs or cruisers, large battleship gangs and ad-hoc fleets of 80 or more pilots. I wrote two articles on FW in those early months singing its praises because frankly, it was just that awesome. I remember thinking "This right here is what EVE is all about, get new players into THIS.". It had a few problems of course but with feedback from players it was understood that those problems would be sorted out quickly enough to not be a big issue and development on FW would continue to make it perfect. It was a great time and I'm sure CCP were patting each other on the back for a job well done.

The problem was a complete lack of follow-up. Those problems it had at launch which would have been relatively trivial to fix are still there a year later. System ownership is still worthless, FW missions are still pointless and the plexes that respawn at downtime still provide more capture points than can be neutralised by running plexes in the region for the entire rest of the day. That's how the caldari took every gallente system, by running the plexes immediately after downtime every day. When the gallente stopped fighting them for the downtime plexes, their systems fell like dominoes. To be clear, these are all failings of the system that were pointed out a year ago and should have been worked on since then. New problems have even crept in like the ability to capture complexes while cloaked and the crippling lag that CCP have been dragging their heels on identifying and resolving.

FW wasn't the kind of feature they could just create and then leave for a year, it's not like adding more mission content or a new ship. To re-appropriate a phrase used earlier in this thread, Faction Warfare came with an expiration date. It may now be too late to fix it.

After we did the whole wormhole thing for a few months, I decided to join FW again for some of that laid back pvp fun I remembered. Instead, this time I couldn't even get a fight out of the caldari because most of the people interested in pvp had left due to the lag. All the fights I got were against pirates and I sure as hell didn't need to be in FW for that. I don't know if FW was just a stall-tactic to keep players interested until apocrypha or if it was genuinely meant to be good but the fact is that it was awesome when it started. A year later and with absolutely NO follow-up, it's all but dead. Even the storylines have stalled and died in spite of all the promotional releases leading up to FW.

Havohej
Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics
Posted - 2009.06.12 12:32:00 - [80]
 

Originally by: Dierdra Vaal
David Caldera: With exclamations of "All 3 FW problems that was mentioned are very serious and must be brought up now" (and similarly demanding language was used in the issues themselves) it does look to me like FW pilots feel their part of the game deserves more attention that others. You might not feel that way, and maybe even the poster didnt intend it that way (in which case he/she should rephrase their request), but to me it reads like someone insisting that their demands are heard now.


FW pilots aren't suggesting that their issue deserves more attention than others. FW pilots are manifesting their deserved frustration at how, for the entire existence of Factional Warfare in EVE, FW-related issues have been pushed further and further down in the queue of priority if not outright ignored while the 0.0 crowd (which, as stated in statistical releases from CCP represents a very small fraction of the overall playerbase) seems to get all of their concerns answered near instantaneously.

And you should hardly be surprised if any given player 'demands' that an issue be fixed 'now'. The pvp-inept demanded for months that 'nano' ships be nerfed now and it happened. Almost all pvpers demanded that Caldari recons be nerfed now and it happened. There seems to be a prevailing hope that if we demand FW be addressed by CCP now some attention might actually be paid.

Nyphur
Pillowsoft
Posted - 2009.06.12 13:05:00 - [81]
 

Originally by: Havohej
FW pilots aren't suggesting that their issue deserves more attention than others. FW pilots are manifesting their deserved frustration at how, for the entire existence of Factional Warfare in EVE, FW-related issues have been pushed further and further down in the queue of priority if not outright ignored while the 0.0 crowd (which, as stated in statistical releases from CCP represents a very small fraction of the overall playerbase) seems to get all of their concerns answered near instantaneously.

I'd just like to add to this that there doesn't appear to be a single thing with lower priority in EVE than FW. It's been a year since its release and it has seen absolutely no development whatsoever. Not even the simple tweaks and fixes that should have been implemented in the months following the expansion's launch. There's been a lot of talk, some good ideas and a lot of "We're looking into it" but so far not a single significant change or fix to FW has hit TQ. This isn't about making FW high priority, it's about asking if they're ever going to develop it.

Meissa Anunthiel
Redshift Industrial
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2009.06.12 16:47:00 - [82]
 

Originally by: Nyphur

I'd just like to add to this that there doesn't appear to be a single thing with lower priority in EVE than FW. It's been a year since its release and it has seen absolutely no development whatsoever. Not even the simple tweaks and fixes that should have been implemented in the months following the expansion's launch. There's been a lot of talk, some good ideas and a lot of "We're looking into it" but so far not a single significant change or fix to FW has hit TQ. This isn't about making FW high priority, it's about asking if they're ever going to develop it.


Now, this is a valid complaint/request.
However, the request that was presented to the CSM was not that one, it was specifically stating that FW should have higher priority. Hence why it got voted down.
Plans for FW development/improvements is a fine topic to discuss, as would be specific issues that are not aknowledged by CCP, or specific improvement ideas.

Each proposal has pros and cons, it seems a lot of people look at the pros without looking at the cons.
"assigning a higher priority to FW" => decreasing the priority of everything else. (not fine in my book)
"giving FW corps free wardecs" => giving a disadvantage to everyone not taking part in FW. (not fine in my book).
"fix lag NOW" => other than the tone, a valid request, one that CCP already approved of. (and keep in mind fixing stuff takes time).

If you want to discuss this further, hit me up in game.


Ankhesentapemkah
Gallente
Posted - 2009.06.12 17:00:00 - [83]
 

Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel
"assigning a higher priority to FW" => decreasing the priority of everything else. (not fine in my book)

Not necessarily.

FW has priority 100.
Combat Simulators has priority 25.
0.0 Sov has priority 5.
Combat Simulators gets assigned devtime, while minor FW fixes slip under the radar.

Now:
CSM convinces CCP to put FW to priority 20.
Issues 20-99 are affected, issues 1-19 are unaffected.
0.0 and FW get assigned devtime, with 0.0 still retaining a higher priority than FW.
Result: Happy FW and 0.0 players.

Noone is asking to assign priority 1 to FW.

Dohl Khrensen
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2009.06.12 17:13:00 - [84]
 

Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel
Plans for FW development/improvements is a fine topic to discuss, as would be specific issues that are not aknowledged by CCP, or specific improvement ideas.


If you think a general issue about encouraging CCP discussion in regards to Faction Warfare is a worthwhile issue, please visit this thread and support it as your CSM colleague Omber Zombie has.

Thank you,

Dohl

Meissa Anunthiel
Redshift Industrial
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2009.06.12 18:06:00 - [85]
 

@ Dohl: I'm most certain that topic will appear in the CSM shortly. And as I said I would, I'll vote it up if the requirements I mentionned above are met and it's not a stupid/unbalanced improvement suggestion ;-).
I'm careful about expressing support for proposals ahead of time, because if their nature changes during the discussion into something I can no longer agree with, it's a bit weird. The way I see it, my way of showing support for a proposal would be to champion it myself if nobody else does.

@Ankhe: resources don't magically appear out of nowhere, if you assign more someplace, you have to take them from someplace else. Ergo, if you increase FW priority, you decrease the priority of something else. There's no way around that, no amount of using exemples of dubious relevance and magic numbers will change that. I would have thought even you would understand it.

It's like boosting things. You boost something, you nerf something else in comparison. Same thing with nerfs. You nerf something, you boost other things in comparison.

Ankhesentapemkah
Gallente
Posted - 2009.06.12 18:23:00 - [86]
 

Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel
@Ankhe: resources don't magically appear out of nowhere, if you assign more someplace, you have to take them from someplace else. Ergo, if you increase FW priority, you decrease the priority of something else. There's no way around that, no amount of using exemples of dubious relevance and magic numbers will change that. I would have thought even you would understand it.

It's like boosting things. You boost something, you nerf something else in comparison. Same thing with nerfs. You nerf something, you boost other things in comparison.


I'm not denying that, I'm just saying that nothing important will get affected. 0.0 and whatever still retain the same amount of resources, but things like COMBAT SIMULATORS which everyone hated would have gotten scrapped. Please re-read the example until you understand it.

Issler Dainze
Minmatar
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
Posted - 2009.06.12 18:38:00 - [87]
 

Ank, you are trying raise the rabble claiming that the combat simulator took resource away from other Eve features. CCP made it very clear (over and over) when we were in Iceland that the team that did the combat simultor was new and was not able to work at that time on any of the primary features of Eve. The combat simulator was in effect a way to get that new team up to speed.

The FW zealots need to realize that the request in the last meeting WAS to make FW higher priority. Sorry, things have been broken and needing attention in other areas longer thant FW. So the CSM was not going to tell CCP to put FW in front of things that have needed attention since before FW was introduced.

Ank's bizzare resources from thin air idea about prioritization essentially violates the laws of physics "conservation of dev resources" :-)

So again, "FW, get back in queue, no cutting line!"

Issler

Ankhesentapemkah
Gallente
Posted - 2009.06.12 18:45:00 - [88]
 

Originally by: Issler Dainze
Sorry, things have been broken and needing attention in other areas longer thant FW. So the CSM was not going to tell CCP to put FW in front of things that have needed attention since before FW was introduced.


Noone is asking to put FW in front of things that need attention more.

FW is currently at priority 100. People are asking for priorty 20, not priority 1. Which is what is meant by giving it a higher priority. Please understand.

Nyphur
Pillowsoft
Posted - 2009.06.12 20:37:00 - [89]
 

Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel
Originally by: Nyphur

I'd just like to add to this that there doesn't appear to be a single thing with lower priority in EVE than FW. It's been a year since its release and it has seen absolutely no development whatsoever. Not even the simple tweaks and fixes that should have been implemented in the months following the expansion's launch. There's been a lot of talk, some good ideas and a lot of "We're looking into it" but so far not a single significant change or fix to FW has hit TQ. This isn't about making FW high priority, it's about asking if they're ever going to develop it.


Now, this is a valid complaint/request.
However, the request that was presented to the CSM was not that one, it was specifically stating that FW should have higher priority. Hence why it got voted down.

My complaint was specifically that FW has low enough priority that it hasn't been developed at all in an entire year, including a complete lack of the post-release tweaks that are customary for any new expansion content. Of course FW's priority should be raised. The current priority level has let it go a full year without necessary updates and has let it get to the point where the entire FW system is becoming worthless, it's clearly on too low a priority. Nobody's asking for it to be given absolute number 1 priority, we're asking that it be raised to a level such that it actually gets developed before we die of old age. Otherwise we could be having this same argument in another year's time asking why they haven't developed FW in two years.

Bunyip
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2009.06.13 01:08:00 - [90]
 

Hey guys,

I served on the last term of the CSM, and I feel we did get some attention to FW done. I'll admit that the FW issues tanked in this last meeting, but it was partially due to bad proposals of the issues.

CCP seem to be in the opinion of fixing one major topic per patch while adding some new content, and I think this is the way to go. Scanning was revamped in Apocrypha, and 0.0 sovereignty will be revamped SOON (TM). Mining and corporate management need a fix about as much as FW does, so there is hope for an eventual recreation of the activity.

Please note: I do not participate in FW, but I understand it's importance and how integral it is to the success of Eve. Some things did surprise me about this last meeting, but if you want more people interested in FW, get to know the candidates then use the power of the vote.


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