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Korcahn
Gallente
Trader's Academy
Blue Sky Consortium
Posted - 2009.05.30 23:35:00 - [151]
 

I agree that some should have been in lowsec, but lowsec level 4's arent going to draw any hisec mission runners out. I believe the idea here is to spread out the lvl 4 runners in highsec that clog busy systems - not to increase the risk and force them to worry about PvP. Because the lowsec systems are not usually crowded, that is likely why they did not get any new agents.


Typhado3
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.05.31 00:08:00 - [152]
 

Originally by: Lrrp
Originally by: Zaknussem


Despite your claims, Gas Cloud Harvesting does have a ridiculous entry price: Over 40 million ISK just to get started. Add 20 million for every extra Gas Harvester you want to add. So for 5 Gas Harvesters on a ship + skill book you're paying over 120 million ISK. Let's not forget the added cost and time of finding the gas as well. So considerable time will be spent just getting back the money sunk into the profession.


Are you completely daft man? I know guys making 1 billion isk a day mining gas clouds. You complain here about the cost getting started then you make this comment:


Originally by: Zaknussem
Meanwhile, the entry level price for L4 missions is about 150 million ISK (skills, ship and fittings) and about a month of skill time training, minimum. By the time you're eligible to talk to the L4 agents, you already have that money in your wallet by running L1-L3 missions. Making that money back should take about a week at the very most.


So on one hand 120 mil isk is a lot of isk, OTH it is not. I don't know about anyone else, a starting acct is NOT going to be lvl 4 mission ready in 30 days. How many times have we heard about a noob jumping into a BS before he was ready and losing it in a lvl 3 mission let alone a lvl 4. A casual player will not make 150 mil in 30 days nor will he gain enough standing to have access to a lvl 4 agent. As I stated in another thread, averaged out, a good miner can mine veld in hi sec and make as much a lvl 4 mission runner.




Ok I've been working on gas harvesting for the last few months and that 1 bil isk a day is utter bullsh*t.

First off I usually spend a day out doing exploration takes me about half an hour to an hour to scan down all the results in a system and I'll usually do about 3 systems in a day (running most sites), and usually I'll find 1 or 2 ladar sites if I'm lucky. And assuming I don't get one of those crappy combat ladar sites ccp added in. Well you said he was doing all gas harvesting so I'd guess he could get maybe 4/6 sites a day complete ignoring the other explorations he picked up.

Now running the actual site isn't too hard, if you do it solo you should be able to have it harvested, fight off the spawn and hauled in an hour. The amount of gas you find in these sites varies between 250-1000 units in all these and I only ever found 1 site that gave you 1000 gas, average is around 500.

Now assuming you somehow get all this gas to jita and sell it you can expect between 50k - 100k per unit. You also gonna have to wait a fair while to sell it all as the gas market moves pretty slow.

so 5 sites with 500 units each and 75k per unit. just under 200 mil for a full days work......

and this is in the middle of 0.0 having to go through multiple systems in hauling and harvesting ships and this doesn't even take into account what happens if some pirate tries to catch you. Hell it doesn't even take into account the fact that you probably have to pay (be it in pvp ships and time or straight out isk) for your access to 0.0 or the cost of hauling raw gas all the way to jita.

fuze
Gallente
Quam Singulari
Posted - 2009.05.31 00:12:00 - [153]
 

Originally by: Tithia Jadetiger
Edited by: Tithia Jadetiger on 30/05/2009 22:37:24
I have a feeling that the devs who made this update really have no f-ing clue in regards to mission runners and what they actually are looking for when selecting agents. Not to mention that this "Update" will do nothing to drag 99% of the players in the current mission hubs away from these places. The reality of the situation is that the level and quality system should be removed in favor of a dynamic system where a new player builds up reputation to better paying missions with a single corp and all its agent/corp. If a player wants to move to a new agent/corp elsewhere in the game they would in turn be required to do a series of special referral chain missions to start off at the same level of quality missions with a new agent/corp.


And to add to this. How long ago tons of people were complaining about the distribution of agents altogether and the lag it brought on the mission hubs? About one or two years now and it took CCP that long to finally look into and try to fix it. One of the worst fixes since agents were ever introduced. It's not balanced in order to relieve the bulk of the mission hubs.

If you really want to balance missions transfer the majority of them in ships and start moving them around. This allows them to become as dynamic as Jadetiger suggested. Use location agents to track them and have them stick around for a couple a days at that place. Or even have them stay in a plex that's guarded. And they even can be in low-sec or wormhole system.

Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.05.31 00:19:00 - [154]
 

The addition of more *high sec* level four agents (and the fact that the majority of them are caldari FFS) is just disgusting.

This is the best solution that the entireity of the dev team can come up with? In a thread started by CCP Nozh asking what needed the most fixing about the game there was a very large number of posts pointing out the lack of risk vs. reward for L4 agents in high sec. And now this?

Pretty much 6 pages of people voicing their disbeliefe and their disappointment at this announcement and not one response from CCP? the dev team is a joke. Not just one person is responsible for this. Multiple people had to sign off on this as a good idea. Clearly it isn't.

As many improvements as this game has seen, it also has to suffer through decisions like this one. Just pathetic.

Armoured C
Gallente
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2009.05.31 00:20:00 - [155]
 

new agents arnt the problem


new revision of the missioning profession is the problem.


dissapointed


who ever came up with this need a baff in the head with a rolled up newspaper please ¬_¬

Lrrp
Minmatar
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.05.31 01:40:00 - [156]
 

Originally by: Typhado3
Originally by: Lrrp
Stuff



Ok I've been working on gas harvesting for the last few months and that 1 bil isk a day is utter bullsh*t.

First off I usually spend a day out doing exploration takes me about half an hour to an hour to scan down all the results in a system and I'll usually do about 3 systems in a day (running most sites), and usually I'll find 1 or 2 ladar sites if I'm lucky. And assuming I don't get one of those crappy combat ladar sites ccp added in. Well you said he was doing all gas harvesting so I'd guess he could get maybe 4/6 sites a day complete ignoring the other explorations he picked up.

Now running the actual site isn't too hard, if you do it solo you should be able to have it harvested, fight off the spawn and hauled in an hour. The amount of gas you find in these sites varies between 250-1000 units in all these and I only ever found 1 site that gave you 1000 gas, average is around 500.

Now assuming you somehow get all this gas to jita and sell it you can expect between 50k - 100k per unit. You also gonna have to wait a fair while to sell it all as the gas market moves pretty slow.

so 5 sites with 500 units each and 75k per unit. just under 200 mil for a full days work......

and this is in the middle of 0.0 having to go through multiple systems in hauling and harvesting ships and this doesn't even take into account what happens if some pirate tries to catch you. Hell it doesn't even take into account the fact that you probably have to pay (be it in pvp ships and time or straight out isk) for your access to 0.0 or the cost of hauling raw gas all the way to jita.



With all due respect, if you belonged to a good 0 sec corp and a number of you worked togeather, I think you will find my figure much closer to reality.

Altaree
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.05.31 03:38:00 - [157]
 

And now the CSM has a thread for this in the assembly hall:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1084609

Seluko
Posted - 2009.05.31 03:46:00 - [158]
 

Now that CCP has gotten a respectable amount of subs, they don't give a **** about players opinions.

Caliph Scorpionsting
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2009.05.31 04:38:00 - [159]
 

So ccp wants lowsec an nullsec to be worthless right? Why leave a 0.7 when you can make 30m+ an hour? This is an honest question, what reason is there to live in 0.0 when you can make way more isk and little to no risk in high sec? Do you guys even know? Is there any reason to what you are doing?

Carniflex
StarHunt
Fallout Project
Posted - 2009.05.31 05:48:00 - [160]
 

Originally by: Shart McBart
Originally by: Sidrat Flush
5 Pages of similar views without a dev response or confirmation always makes me nervous.


They only respond to fanbois ... not ****ed off customers.


If you really are feeling ****ed off then I would reccomend not to let that door hit you on your way out. It's not good to get that stressed over a game. Granted it's EVE so it's somewhat more than 'just a game' for most but still ... Besides they do answer sometimes to whiners. Those poor whiners sit still shocked for a bit and then start moaning about dev trolling on them after that.

As far as agents themselves go - I'm not stressed about it. Purpose of this change was not to revamp whole agent system, purpose was to redistribute missionrunning load from systems with heaviest population densities. While I do not believe it will work really bcos of beforementioned reasons on page 2 it will not do anything engative to situation either.

CanI haveyourstuff
Posted - 2009.05.31 06:58:00 - [161]
 

Originally by: CCP Fallout
blablablablaaaa.....dev blog.



CCP and guys who work on this "improvement" , I'm sorry to be rude but this shows ****ing clearly that you do not have any damn idea about this game.

Why do you have to do everything against what your players ask?????

I really hope that you NOW READ this feedback what players have written here and reconsider some stuff about this "improvement"

Lexiana Del'Amore
Gallente
Nouvelle Rouvenor
Posted - 2009.05.31 07:39:00 - [162]
 

Edited by: Lexiana Del''Amore on 31/05/2009 07:39:45
Reading the dev blog about new lvl 4 missions i took about flying to one of the new Agents, only to find the agent is listed ingame as being a lvl 3 agent...

Agent in question is Avele Lelynier
Federation Navy
Internal Security
Gererique (0.7)

Nareg Maxence
Gallente
Posted - 2009.05.31 08:06:00 - [163]
 

Give L4 NPCs better AI.

Ancy Denaries
Posted - 2009.05.31 08:41:00 - [164]
 

For the first time I have to agree with the whinecrowd...what were you thinking when you came up with this ridiculus idea? INCREASING the number of lvl 4 agents is not helping the ISK-printing issue. Also, adding MORE agents to Caldari space is the single most stupid thing I've ever seen. Looking to spread people out? Way to go adding more agents to the MOST CROWDED AREA IN SPACE.

You disappointed me this time :/

Nareg Maxence
Gallente
Posted - 2009.05.31 09:03:00 - [165]
 

Originally by: Ancy Denaries
For the first time I have to agree with the whinecrowd...what were you thinking when you came up with this ridiculus idea? INCREASING the number of lvl 4 agents is not helping the ISK-printing issue. Also, adding MORE agents to Caldari space is the single most stupid thing I've ever seen. Looking to spread people out? Way to go adding more agents to the MOST CROWDED AREA IN SPACE.

You disappointed me this time :/


Yes, actually when I read it, I was thinking the same thing. Caldari space is annoyingly crowded. I don't see the point of these agent changes.

Roger Rabid
Posted - 2009.05.31 09:14:00 - [166]
 

Moar Ammatar agents, plz. >:)

Raukho
Evoke.
Ev0ke
Posted - 2009.05.31 09:54:00 - [167]
 

Originally by: Caliph Scorpionsting
So ccp wants lowsec an nullsec to be worthless right? Why leave a 0.7 when you can make 30m+ an hour? This is an honest question, what reason is there to live in 0.0 when you can make way more isk and little to no risk in high sec? Do you guys even know? Is there any reason to what you are doing?


Only when all moons give the same mix of materials. As mining high ends is making the most money in the game.

Maria Kalista
Amarr
Knights of Kador
Posted - 2009.05.31 09:57:00 - [168]
 

Originally by: Kyra Felann
Edited by: Kyra Felann on 30/05/2009 06:32:08
I 1001% support adding AI similar to that of Sleepers to all NPCs in missions and elsewhere. NPCs have been dumb, harvestable goodie-piñatas for too long. Make them challenging and make missions fun instead of boring slogs.


Although I would love this to happen it will never be implemented in the current system as it is.
Reason is that then missions would be way to difficult for those new to them. Yes I know, they should get friends. Guess what, some people just like to be single players in a MMO. Even a MMO as difficult as this one.
It just would turn of more people then it would attract.

However, and I've suggested this before, maybe CCP could make mission rats with sleeper AI available on a choose to and standing base.
Like you need at least a standing with the agent of 8.0 to have him/her offer you a 'more dangerous' mission and even then you can decline this mission without penalty and go on with the normal missions out of the pool with the same old dumb rats.




Hermiod
Posted - 2009.05.31 11:14:00 - [169]
 

After some searching i found these results for systems (all low/no sec btw) containing multiple L4-Q20 agents:

Hophib (10): 5 x Ministry of War, 5 x Civic Court law school
Ziziert (10): 8 x Zoar and Sons Factory, 2 x Imperial Armaments
Annancale (12): Astral Mining Inc.
Ualkin (11): 5 x Minmatar mining Corp, 4 x Republic Justice Dep., 2 x Freedom Extension
Assah (6): Ammatar Fleet
PFP-GUII (5): Quafe Company
Anohel (5): Creodron
Gayar (5): Ammatar trade registry
Balirmoult (5): Material acquisition
Esesier (4): Ducia Foundry
Yahyerer (4): Amarr Navy (all internal security btw)

There are many more systems with 4 or 3 L4Q20 agents, all over lowsec New Eden. Why not spread those out for a better "balancing"? Most of these agents are wasted because hardly anyone is going to risk their mining ship to do missions in lowsec and the systems with mostly kill-mission-offering agents are being controlled by local settlers, giving them a monopoly on the few top agents of specific npc.
Why not spread those agents a bit more over both low- and highsec New Eden?

Random Womble
Minmatar
Emo Rangers
Electric Monkey Overlords
Posted - 2009.05.31 11:32:00 - [170]
 

two points one of which i know has allready been said repetedly

1. Putting new agents in caldari space is a complete failure and the main reason caldari missions are most run at the moment is as people said quality/sec ect and giving caldari far more agents than anyone else is hardly going to encourage use of other races which would be a much better idea.

2. Ok i apreciate minmatar actually got 4 new agents unlike amarr but wtf why are 2 of them administation, when caldari/gallente get all command, security ect, it makes no sense in general and is rather silly in RP terms too i mean do you really think big muscular brutors really want to be doing administration. Also why do none of them have particularly good quality (the two security one sucks arse at -11Q and -7Q).

I rarely run missions these days and can do both gallente and minmatar Lv4s but this just seems badly thought out.

Rip Minner
Gallente
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
Posted - 2009.05.31 11:43:00 - [171]
 

You want to work on the need for speed? Then you have to face facts on High sec missioning and there hubs. There are lots of reasons missioning hubs form but its not for a lack or other level 4 agents or even the quality of the agent. You will always get missioning hubs around the level 4 agents that dont send your 200mil+ missioning ship into low sec.

So every one of the new agents that you placed out still will not hardly be used if they send us to low sec. Pvp ships cut though missionig ships like a hot blade though butter.

There's better options like adding 0.4 to 0.1 low sec systems to be safe like high sec removing them all together. Or just seting High sec agents to never send you to low sec. and adding more high sec systems. That will go farther in helping your need for speed.

Celia Therone
Posted - 2009.05.31 11:58:00 - [172]
 

Originally by: Maria Kalista
Originally by: Kyra Felann
Edited by: Kyra Felann on 30/05/2009 06:32:08
I 1001% support adding AI similar to that of Sleepers to all NPCs in missions and elsewhere. NPCs have been dumb, harvestable goodie-piñatas for too long. Make them challenging and make missions fun instead of boring slogs.


Although I would love this to happen it will never be implemented in the current system as it is.
Reason is that then missions would be way to difficult for those new to them. Yes I know, they should get friends. Guess what, some people just like to be single players in a MMO. Even a MMO as difficult as this one.
It just would turn of more people then it would attract.

However, and I've suggested this before, maybe CCP could make mission rats with sleeper AI available on a choose to and standing base.
Like you need at least a standing with the agent of 8.0 to have him/her offer you a 'more dangerous' mission and even then you can decline this mission without penalty and go on with the normal missions out of the pool with the same old dumb rats.



I truly don't get this sleeper AI desire at all.

The things that make sleepers difficult are remote repair, tough, fast ships with huge dps and the frequency of webification and especially warp scrambling and the ability to focus fire. Oh, yeah, CCP said something about sleepers maintaining high transversal when closing but that's never mattered to me.

Put a sleeper AI in a regular rat ship (or fleet) that you're fighting solo and virtually the only difference that you'll see is that it targets your drones if you're flying a drone boat. Do drone boats need a huge nerf? Are they the most popular mission runners?

Narfas Deteis
Posted - 2009.05.31 12:02:00 - [173]
 

Quote:
As an example of the sorts of things we're working on, some legacy complexes have literally scores or even hundreds of structures in them, most serving little purpose other than to clutter up the overview; similarly, some missions have massive numbers of small, fast NPCs in them, which is a nuisance especially in level 3 missions and beyond (and of course also increases server load). So we've been sorting through old dungeons, changing out, rebuilding, and reducing the numbers of structures; tweaking NPC numbers; and so on, all with a view to making things run more smoothly.


Yes, I know it should decrease lag and server stress but...
...but it looks like another step in simplyfing EVE.

What about all these carefully designed plexes/missions with loads of irritating NPC AFs and such things? I hope it will not turn into "let's put there one cloud, one asteroid and 3 BSs instaed of all this mess".

I will miss these nice looking plexes with 1000 objects in space.

Rip Minner
Gallente
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
Posted - 2009.05.31 12:45:00 - [174]
 

Edited by: Rip Minner on 31/05/2009 13:10:33
Edited by: Rip Minner on 31/05/2009 12:54:36
Edited by: Rip Minner on 31/05/2009 12:53:07
Well you killed level 5 missions off for the most part by puting them in low sec/making missions scanable/making scaning fast and easy for everyone.

Did you ever stop to think that a fair amout of mission runners would spread out if you

1.) add level 5 missions back into low population high sec area's
2.) make missions unscanable again.

Just brain food for you to chew on.

Edit: Yes I know low sec pirits cry for years to make missions scanable. But even the smart ones have to say low sec is like a gost town this days. At least with missions unscaneble people would risk going low sec to do a mission giving pirits at least a chance to get us. Now we just set in high sec turning down all low sec missions and never going there ether. Not all just most.But hay it made a new profetion niji salvagers. I dont care if it happends it dont realy bother me just means I get to my next mission faster.But yes it will kill this new profetion if they can not scane down are missions. It also adds to the lag and number of people that follow us mission runers around.

Mara Kell
Steel Beasts
Property Management Solutions
Posted - 2009.05.31 12:55:00 - [175]
 

Amarr Agents anyone? CCP just because you placed many of them in useless systems so no one can use them that doesnt mean they dont need some love...

Yahyerer IV - Moon 9 - Amarr Navy Testing Facilities for example:
Ahvasa Aradoh L4 20
Jabha Dinuhar L4 20
Melmaja Gaku L4 20
Sazakhtid Nalfir L4 20
Hamen Banela L3 20
Gahta Zahashir L3 20

Is that really necessary to cram all those agents together in one station? Sure the system is not overcrowded, well at least not by mission runners, but what do you expect when placing all usefull L4s in a single low sec station and the rest in FW area stations.




Witaki
Posted - 2009.05.31 13:11:00 - [176]
 

Hi,

does anyone know who and when will fix Avele Lelynier level. currently showing as 3 but according to the dev blog it should be 4?Crying or Very sad

Rgds,

Witaki

Rip Minner
Gallente
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
Posted - 2009.05.31 13:14:00 - [177]
 

Originally by: Mara Kell
Amarr Agents anyone? CCP just because you placed many of them in useless systems so no one can use them that doesnt mean they dont need some love...

Yahyerer IV - Moon 9 - Amarr Navy Testing Facilities for example:
Ahvasa Aradoh L4 20
Jabha Dinuhar L4 20
Melmaja Gaku L4 20
Sazakhtid Nalfir L4 20
Hamen Banela L3 20
Gahta Zahashir L3 20

Is that really necessary to cram all those agents together in one station? Sure the system is not overcrowded, well at least not by mission runners, but what do you expect when placing all usefull L4s in a single low sec station and the rest in FW area stations.






Probly the same stupidity they been trying for years force people that dont like to pvp into it. It still dont work for some reason go fig.

Tarron Sarek
Gallente
Biotronics Inc.
Initiative Mercenaries
Posted - 2009.05.31 13:35:00 - [178]
 

Originally by: Kaakao
Originally by: ArmyOfMe
you added 23 new lvl 4 agents and didnt place a single freaking one of those in low sec??????

thanks for once again screwing over every single one that lives in low sec



Low sec already has plenty of systems with up to 3x Q20 lvl4 agents. Stop whining.
This.

There already are more than enough superior L4 agents in low sec.
Stop trolling.

Gabriel Darkefyre
Minmatar
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2009.05.31 13:38:00 - [179]
 

All they really need to do to spread people out is set a limit on how far a particular Agent will send you for your Missions.

For Example

Q -20 to -10 - Up to 3 Jumps Away
Q -9 to 0 - Up to 2 Jumps Away
Q 1 to 10 - Up to 1 Jump Away
Q 11 to 20 - Always Same System

Mission will Spawn randomly in an Eligible System

Then set a Reasonable Hard Limit on the Number of Active Kill Missions that a Single System will Support at any one time. If the Mission would spawn in a System that's at it's Cap, it spawns instead in another eligible system.

However, if all the Systems that Missions from a Particular Agent can spawn are at their cap then you'll just get a message saying that he has no work for you at the moment but he might have work later in the day (Have a 15 Minute Timer before you can ask the Agent for a New Mission after the "No Work" Message to prevent people just spamming the Agent till a Mission becomes available. If a Mission becomes available during the 15 Minutes and someone else speaks to the Agent First, they'll get the mission.)

-----

That way, Higher Quality Agents aren't going to send you as far, however they have a higher likelyhood of not having any work for you, meaning that if you want reliable access to Missions, you should be looking at agents of a Lower Quality as they're more likely to have an Available Spawn Location.

Or, You could look at trying to Clear out your Competition with a Wardec YARRRR!!

Tarron Sarek
Gallente
Biotronics Inc.
Initiative Mercenaries
Posted - 2009.05.31 13:53:00 - [180]
 

Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 31/05/2009 14:03:48
Originally by: Carniflex
Originally by: Kern Hotha
If you're really hoping that these agents will lure mission runners away I don't think it will succeed. The criteria for a good level 4 agent are:

1. Agent quality 15+
2. 0.5 or 0.6 system
3. No low sec within 2 (preferably 3+) jumps

By those criteria I see maybe one agent worth looking at on the list. Just sayin'.


Kern and Chainsaw have already quite covered what I was planning to say after looking a bit at that devblog.

Altho I will add, that those are not the main criterias for creation of mission hub - the main criteria is having several agents in close proximity allowing one to 'cherrypick' only profitable missions without running into 4h timer. If agent cluster is combined with quoted 3 conditions you will get major missionrunning hub - even if you place it in hi sec pocket inside zerozero space.
This is very true.

There are still two points to add, though.
One very important aspect is storyline agents.
At least in Gallente space, the major mission hub has storyline agents in the same system.
That means if you want to fly that important mission, you can do it without relocating.
The other one is general location.
People don't like to run missions in the middle of nowhere. Therefore agents located near a trade hub or generally in the middle of a big region, are more attractive.

So imho it comes down to:
1. Agent quality 15+
2. No low sec within 2 (preferably 3+) jumps
3. Storyline agent in close proximity
4. 0.5 or 0.6 system
5. Good travel connections

If you want to break up mission hubs,
- Move storyline agents away, preferably into remote systems containing low quality agent (to create incentive to use those).
- Move high quality agents further apart.
- Move highest quality agents into systems bordering low sec.

That way agents would be more balanced.
  • The best quality ones would be the riskiest (or most annoying) ones.

  • Mid-range agents would be located in the current mission hubs, providing fuss-free and well-situated mission running.

  • Low quality agents would have the advantage of nearby storyline agents.


Of course, the best solution would be to overhaul the whole agent system, make agent quality dynamic and/or somehow limit the possibility to grind one or two agents only, possibly by limiting the number of missions available.


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