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Hyveres
Caldari
Resilience.
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2009.05.28 20:32:00 - [301]
 

Tbh the only way to make it work with lowsec only would mean making lowsec more "controllable" meaning allowing bubbles , keeping the sec status loss from shooting unprovoked noncriminal ships and giving gateguns a slight buff.

Shaun Klaroh
Caldari
Universal Fleet Operations
Posted - 2009.05.28 20:45:00 - [302]
 

A Battlecruiser or Battleship set up to fight off BC or larger class ships will not be able to do much if anything to a high-speed frigate, am I right? In this case, I'd have to say that it'd look like it's a case of whether or not the pirate picks the right target.

Illectroculus Defined
No Bull Ships
Posted - 2009.05.28 20:48:00 - [303]
 

Edited by: Illectroculus Defined on 28/05/2009 20:51:15
Edited by: Illectroculus Defined on 28/05/2009 20:49:31
What we really need is a way to control territory in low-sec as effectively as alliances control it in 0.0. Which means there needs to be incentives to make controlling your little slice of low-sec worthwhile.

It would seem to me that lvl4&5 missions are lucrative enough to be worth securing your systems.

Of course - then you'd have to join a real player run corp.

cpu939
Gallente
Volatile Nature
White Noise.
Posted - 2009.05.28 20:58:00 - [304]
 

People think eve is a game of pvp it might be but it is a game of fun if we didn't have fun we wouldn't play and the people running lvl 4's mission in high sec enjoy it so at the end of the day is it wrong that they are having fun.

So to everyone asking to have lvl 4's moved into low sec why should ccp stop people having fun after all thats what games are for.

To the people who can't see that others enjoy doing missions and think everyone should pvp get over it and allow people to enjoy there game the way they like to play.

-And before you think i'm a carebear i do enjoy pvp high/low/null sec and i do enjoy mission in high sec inc lvl 4's if i could get into anything other than a 0.5

CyberGh0st
Minmatar
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
Posted - 2009.05.28 21:13:00 - [305]
 

Edited by: CyberGh0st on 28/05/2009 21:15:04
Just wanted to add, that I never had problems doing missions in lowsec, as long as they are in deadspace pockets. I still have been killed in there, but I have a good chance to escape from incomming pirates, or even engage them, because they dont pop on top of me.

However the missions in regular space are pretty lethal, there are 0 chances of escape when you have 5+ rats on you and some pirate comes in on top of you ...

So perhaps it is a good idea to make all lowsec missions inside deadspace pockets only. Then moving all level 4 missions to lowsec seems a good idea to me.

greetings

Illectroculus Defined
No Bull Ships
Posted - 2009.05.28 21:24:00 - [306]
 

Originally by: Shaun Klaroh
A Battlecruiser or Battleship set up to fight off BC or larger class ships will not be able to do much if anything to a high-speed frigate, am I right? In this case, I'd have to say that it'd look like it's a case of whether or not the pirate picks the right target.


Funnily enough I thought that, but then the other day a friend of mine in a drake was jumped by a SB & interceptor gang. We were trying to jump the 4 systems to help him out and every time we jumped he reported back that he'd managed to kill one of the assailants. I think he killed 3 before they gave up.

skye orionis
Posted - 2009.05.28 21:29:00 - [307]
 

Originally by: CyberGh0st

So perhaps it is a good idea to make all lowsec missions inside deadspace pockets only. Then moving all level 4 missions to lowsec seems a good idea to me.



Nah we need regular space so that mission runners can distance tank in sniperships. I'd much prefer it if rats had a significant chance of retargetting newcomers, thus splitting the damage. Then you can avoid getting those killmails that show the pirate doing a tiny fraction of the damage because he's really just adding to the pain the rats are dropping on the mission runner.

Nomore Telindus
Gallente
Pangalactic Punks n' Playboys
HUN Reloaded
Posted - 2009.05.28 21:34:00 - [308]
 

Originally by: Matrix Skye
And believe it or not, not everyone and their mothers speed through missions. I know I don't. And I don't have a pimp Raven. It's nice, but not pimp. So I can't run a 6-hour mission in less than 1 hour. Nice try though. And I loot and salvage so takes me longer for the longer missions, like the Blockade or Gurista Extrvaganza.

In the past 1,5 hours i made four missions. I killed everything and salvaged every single wreck. I used a damnation and a megathron with ordinary T2 equipment. (and i fought against sanshas with crap uranium L, so my damage output was only 60% of the maximum)
Is this speedmissioning?
Originally by: Matrix Skye
And since we're in the subject of nitpicking times, how long does it take you to scan down a target, eh?

Dunno. It's not my job atm. I only played 6 days in this year so far (RL), so the new scanner interface is new to me.

Originally by: Matrix Skye
Nice attempt though Laughing. You see, that's the problem with you. You try and bring up a legitimate reason to bring more targets to your lazy gatecamps but you're not bright enough to make it believable. So you distort it instead.

Okey, you missed my point, so here is what i think:
I don't want the highsec players in lowsec. But atm. highsec is exploited by macroers and by people who are rendering this game's pvp concept to a wow style battlegorund crap. CCP forgot to balancing the incomes after the introduction of rigs and increased starting SP. Nothing more, nothing less.

Nomore Telindus
Gallente
Pangalactic Punks n' Playboys
HUN Reloaded
Posted - 2009.05.28 21:38:00 - [309]
 

Originally by: Matrix Skye
I choose to do my missions alone because I choose to do my missions alone.

So you nerfed yourself to the oblivion and now cry because others playing this game according to it's rules??? Shocked

skye orionis
Posted - 2009.05.28 21:42:00 - [310]
 

Originally by: Nomore Telindus
Originally by: Matrix Skye
I choose to do my missions alone because I choose to do my missions alone.

So you nerfed yourself to the oblivion and now cry because others playing this game according to it's rules??? Shocked

Hear Hear!

Aint it the truth brotha!

Matrix Skye
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2009.05.28 21:51:00 - [311]
 

Edited by: Matrix Skye on 28/05/2009 22:05:58
Originally by: Nomore Telindus
Originally by: Matrix Skye
I choose to do my missions alone because I choose to do my missions alone.

So you nerfed yourself to the oblivion and now cry because others playing this game according to it's rules??? Shocked

Dammit, I forgot. You're right! I'm the one whining and crying. Not you. I'm the one that wants hisec and L4's nerfed. Not only that, but I'm also not playing the game by the rules. Rolling Eyes

So that's your comeback? Laughing. Trying to switch your whine on me? YOU ARE THE one whining, not me. I'm perfectly fine in hisec. But your jealosy is killing you. And now you accuse me of not playing the game by the rules? Why don't you go file a petition about it.

Nomore Telindus
Gallente
Pangalactic Punks n' Playboys
HUN Reloaded
Posted - 2009.05.28 22:10:00 - [312]
 

Originally by: Matrix Skye
And now you accuse me of not playing the game by the rules? Why don't you go file a petition about it.

I wrote two posts...

Matrix Skye
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2009.05.28 22:24:00 - [313]
 

Originally by: Nomore Telindus
In the past 1,5 hours i made four missions. I killed everything and salvaged every single wreck. I used a damnation and a megathron with ordinary T2 equipment. (and i fought against sanshas with crap uranium L, so my damage output was only 60% of the maximum)
Is this speedmissioning?

Ok, now try missioning, looting, and salvaging 4 missions with ONE ACCOUNT. Then post your time.
Quote:
Dunno. It's not my job atm. I only played 6 days in this year so far (RL), so the new scanner interface is new to me.

Then take my word for it or ask your dedicated probers. It usually takes single digit minutes to probe a missioner down, sometimes as little as 3 minutes. There's even a video going around on how to do it in about 3 minutes. Can't be a**ed to find it. Sorry.
Quote:
I don't want the highsec players in lowsec. But atm. highsec is exploited by macroers and by people who are rendering this game's pvp concept to a wow style battlegorund crap. CCP forgot to balancing the incomes after the introduction of rigs and increased starting SP. Nothing more, nothing less.
Then the problem is macroers, not hi sec. And to my knowledge no hisec carebear is asking CCP to turn hisec into WOW or even turn it into anything. It's fine as it is quite frankly. It fits casual players and players that want minimal hassle from "PVPers". I for one dont like losec because of the immature players there. Yes, there are just as much immature players in hi sec, but atleast there a$$hattery is a bit under control in hisec. But it's where I choose to play. My decision.

Rhinanna
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2009.05.28 22:54:00 - [314]
 

Edited by: Rhinanna on 28/05/2009 22:56:38
Quote:
To remove the static baseline that renders other activities obsolete; to increase the variety of worth-while gameplay.


Or instead you could buff the activities that have been 'made' obsolete.... although I can't actually think of one other than low sec mission running that HAS been made obsolete.

Quote:
No. It makes them work on the same principles as other occupations — only then can we start talking about buffs and nerfs because only then do we have two comparable designs. You are the one talking about nerfing them — not me. Yet another strawman on your part.


There is no reason to make them work on the same principles as the other occupations, until you show a reason that they should be made this way which you have failed to do then there is no reason to nerf missions. If you don't think limiting the number of missions a player can do based on competition is nerfing them then I fear for you....

Quote:
As previously mentioned, it doesn't matter if he steals your loot — you make money anyway (in fact, some mission runners claim you lose precious ISK/h by stopping to loot and salvage). In order to kill your revenue, he has to kill all the ships so he gets all the bounties; hack into the CCP database to flag the mission as his; go back to your agent and claim the ISK, LP and standings rewards… Which, of course, can't be done.


Yeah cos the mission reward matters.... Yes you can't nerf that TINY portion of the mission runner's income. You CAN steal the bounties, loot and salvage. He may not be losing ISK but who is going to run Lvl 4s for 10 mil per hour approx max - ammo costs???
Hes losing ISK compared to what he could have made doing Lvl 4 missions, which is the definition of interrupting the revenue stream which you think you can't do......

Quote:
Yes. For the simple reason that, as long as it isn't competetive, it will remain a cast-iron [female dog] to balance against those other activities. Introduce competition, and it will balance itself and allow for more variety and be far easier to adjust when the self-balancing doesn't quite cut it. It's far easier to create a wide and appetizing range of apple hybrids if you don't try to throw an organge in the mix…

And since again you have no reason to say that having a non-competitive section to the game is a bad thing, again you just want the missions changed to SUIT YOU, not to improve the game.

Quote:
No. A straw man is a misrepresentation of the opponents point of view that is set up only for the purpose of being easy to attack.

Eg:
Me: Missions should be made competetive.
You: Nerfing missions is bad for the game (the strawman being that you misrepresent what I'm saying as me wanting to nerf missions, and then you present a case why such a nerf would be bad).


Adding a competitive element to missions would in effect nerf missions. Hence no strawman, OK I fully admit I worded my description of strawman wrong and my apologies for that, I was referring to the logic of arguing a point your opponent wasn't arguing.


Until you can explain WHY having a non-competitive aspect to the game is bad then you have no argument. I don't like it or It's a PvP game aren't valid arguments since ITS CCP'S GAME AND THEY DECIDE WHAT IT IS, NOT YOU. If they decide there should be some small amount of PvE in it then thats fine so long as it doesn't hurt PvP. As previously mentioned people running L4s helps PvP far more than it hinders it.


Nomore Telindus
Gallente
Pangalactic Punks n' Playboys
HUN Reloaded
Posted - 2009.05.28 23:14:00 - [315]
 

Originally by: Matrix Skye
Originally by: Nomore Telindus
In the past 1,5 hours i made four missions. I killed everything and salvaged every single wreck. I used a damnation and a megathron with ordinary T2 equipment. (and i fought against sanshas with crap uranium L, so my damage output was only 60% of the maximum)
Is this speedmissioning?

Ok, now try missioning, looting, and salvaging 4 missions with ONE ACCOUNT. Then post your time.

Roughly 30-40% more. What is your problem with cooperative gaming? Working as intended. (and my two account is just top of the iceberg. Blue local, defensive gang, intel channels are even more helpfull things)

Originally by: Matrix Skye
Quote:
Dunno. It's not my job atm. I only played 6 days in this year so far (RL), so the new scanner interface is new to me.

Then take my word for it or ask your dedicated probers. It usually takes single digit minutes to probe a missioner down, sometimes as little as 3 minutes. There's even a video going around on how to do it in about 3 minutes. Can't be a**ed to find it. Sorry.

It's clear, that you never tried scanning someone down, so let me explain a bit:
You jump to a system, some folks in local.
You see a BS in the directional scanner, odds that he is a missionrunner.
Start scanning.
Now, we have two possible scenario, one where the missioner have a brain and one where not.
The brainless scenario is easy: scan, warp, kill, loot.
The other is the tricky:
-the missioner aligned and warp out, when see you
-the missioner was a bait and they have a fleet ready
-the missioner waited you in a recon 3 mission
-the missioner finished the mission while you scan (it's the most common scenario)
-the missioner is not alone (oh blasphemy!!)


Originally by: Matrix Skye
Then the problem is macroers, not hi sec. And to my knowledge no hisec carebear is asking CCP to turn hisec into WOW or even turn it into anything. It's fine as it is quite frankly. It fits casual players and players that want minimal hassle from "PVPers".

Finally! After 11 pages you start understand something from the problem! Rolling Eyes

Originally by: Matrix Skye
I for one dont like losec because of the immature players there. Yes, there are just as much immature players in hi sec, but atleast there a$$hattery is a bit under control in hisec. But it's where I choose to play. My decision.

Everybody is happy with YOUR decision.

simon perry
Hostile.
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
Posted - 2009.05.28 23:18:00 - [316]
 

Edited by: simon perry on 29/05/2009 11:23:07
Moving level 4's to low sec is a really bad plan, it would cut subscriptions in half.

ZW Dewitt
Posted - 2009.05.28 23:18:00 - [317]
 

Dev blog out about new lvl 4 agents. They are all in high sec. Comedy gold.

Nomore Telindus
Gallente
Pangalactic Punks n' Playboys
HUN Reloaded
Posted - 2009.05.28 23:21:00 - [318]
 

Originally by: Rhinanna
There is no reason to make them work on the same principles as the other occupations, until you show a reason that they should be made this way which you have failed to do then there is no reason to nerf missions. If you don't think limiting the number of missions a player can do based on competition is nerfing them then I fear for you....

Limitng the number of missions would help the casual players to compete with the 7/23 addicts. With this move, CCP can buff the majority of their playerbase.

Matrix Skye
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2009.05.28 23:29:00 - [319]
 

Edited by: Matrix Skye on 28/05/2009 23:35:28
Originally by: Nomore Telindus
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Originally by: Nomore Telindus
In the past 1,5 hours i made four missions. I killed everything and salvaged every single wreck. I used a damnation and a megathron with ordinary T2 equipment. (and i fought against sanshas with crap uranium L, so my damage output was only 60% of the maximum)
Is this speedmissioning?

Ok, now try missioning, looting, and salvaging 4 missions with ONE ACCOUNT. Then post your time.

Roughly 30-40% more. What is your problem with cooperative gaming? Working as intended. (and my two account is just top of the iceberg. Blue local, defensive gang, intel channels are even more helpfull things)

Dude, I have nothing against you running missions with 2 accounts Shocked I asked you to try doing it with one account because you're disputing my claim that missions take about 1-2 hours to complete, sometimes longer. Of course they don't take long with two accounts! That's not what we're arguing. [red]removed, Mitnal{/red]

Rhinanna
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2009.05.28 23:30:00 - [320]
 

Limiting missions per agent would just mean that casual players got to do far less missions than the 23/7ers.

Limiting missions per player would just mean that the 23/7ers would do their allocation of missions then move on to mining or plexs.

How does either of these improve the game in any way?

skye orionis
Posted - 2009.05.28 23:38:00 - [321]
 

The model I suggest is having a limited pool of missions spread across all agents of a faction/level, when a mission is accepted from an agent their pool of missions is decremented and the mission is reseeded to another random agent within the faction.
So there would always be missions available to you, but they might be with an agent elsewhere.

So we could model localized scarcity while always ensuring that there's global abundance.

Rhinanna
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2009.05.28 23:49:00 - [322]
 

Which would basically achieve???

Making people fly around looking for the next mission?
Reducing ISK income for lvl 4s to way below most other occupations?
Introducing more boredom to the game.

A lot of people, Pvpers included, get home from work some days and just want to do a few nice quiet missions. The problem is NOT hi-sec Lvl 4s, its macro/AFK missioners. Same with mining, the problem is Macro-miners. Nerfing missions for everyone else as well will NOT solve this problem.

Unfortunately this is also very hard to balance the missions so that a average skill newer player can still run missions but a high SP, expensive ship player can't AFK the missions.

I agree the best way to do this would be to make Lvl 5s more viable and increase Rat AI levels, without increasing the amount of time it takes to run the missions.

chrisss0r
The Lowbirds
Posted - 2009.05.29 00:06:00 - [323]
 

yeah cause it's the missionrunners who have all the big wallets. LaughingLaughingRolling Eyes

Tentacle Monster
New Eden Trade Union
Posted - 2009.05.29 00:14:00 - [324]
 

Yes, I'm sure pirates would love low-skilled pilots with no capital for T2 ships to have to enter lowsec to make some money. Nothing better than making money and griefing people at the same time, right?

Th0rG0d
Terminal Pharmaceuticals Inc.
Posted - 2009.05.29 00:22:00 - [325]
 

I think the first step would be to up the AI of all known space rats. Since we already have the more "advanced" Sleeper AI, that would be a good start.

Then we can start talking about adjusting bounty/loot tables and/or reorganizing lvl 4s.

Regardless of missions, I think everyone agrees that lo-sec is a barren wasteland, with little incentive to go there, unless you are looking for some pew pew. Maybe decrease some of the more common choke points, and convert some of the border sec systems into lo-sec themselves...... By increasing the number of gates, you can decrease the number of gate camps, until the pirate populations fills in.

Who knows the exact fix, but CCP has to acknowledge the deficiency so they can start addressing the proper solutions.

Hyveres
Caldari
Resilience.
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2009.05.29 01:03:00 - [326]
 

Edited by: Hyveres on 29/05/2009 01:05:38
Originally by: Nomore Telindus
Then take my word for it or ask your dedicated probers. It usually takes single digit minutes to probe a missioner down, sometimes as little as 3 minutes. There's even a video going around on how to do it in about 3 minutes. Can't be a**ed to find it. Sorry.

It's clear, that you never tried scanning someone down, so let me explain a bit:
You jump to a system, some folks in local.
You see a BS in the directional scanner, odds that he is a missionrunner.
Start scanning.
Now, we have two possible scenario, one where the missioner have a brain and one where not.
The brainless scenario is easy: scan, warp, kill, loot.
The other is the tricky:
-the missioner aligned and warp out, when see you
-the missioner was a bait and they have a fleet ready
-the missioner waited you in a recon 3 mission
-the missioner finished the mission while you scan (it's the most common scenario)
-the missioner is not alone (oh blasphemy!!)
And nomatter what you interrupt his income.

In fact you just have to bookmark his location(a good covop with a sisters setup should be able to lock down a battleship in 2-3 scans, that means under 1 minute). Then you go in cloaked , and if he left and its a mission with an objective you simply take away whatever he needs to complete it. That way ensuring a failed mission and standing penalty.

Alternativly just park your scanalt there semiafk and be ready to warp in a ganksquad the moment he returns to complete the mission.

Net result = missionrunner not earning isk which is apparently your goal :)

And while I mostly live in wormholes anything from BC & upwards is scannable in 1-2 minutes assuming its not moving. Any competent pilot in a wormhole however will warp out the moment he got combat probes on his scanner.. in a lowsec system with multiple people going back and forth you might not have that luxury.

Especially if you are a casual player with just an hour or 2 of playtime. For these players a single set of 4 combat scanprobes = log off and try again tomorrow situation. But then in your world people like this shouldnt be playing eve right?

Shaun Klaroh
Caldari
Universal Fleet Operations
Posted - 2009.05.29 01:25:00 - [327]
 

Originally by: Th0rG0d
I think the first step would be to up the AI of all known space rats. Since we already have the more "advanced" Sleeper AI, that would be a good start.



You would need to do that down the chain entirely. Level 1's, Level 2's, and Level 3's in order to not make such a shock to a newer player.

Super Whopper
I can Has Cheeseburger
Posted - 2009.05.29 01:29:00 - [328]
 

I fully support the move of lvl 4 missions to low sec unless mining was boosted but the only way to do that is by moving Crokite and Bistot to high sec because that's fair to miners. People who whine about lvl 4's paying out too much aren't just pirates, the miners are also really unhappy because there's absolutely no point in mining when lvl 4's are far more rewarding.

TraininVain
Posted - 2009.05.29 01:41:00 - [329]
 

http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=656

Ship losses are up. EVEconomy is working.

TraininVain
Posted - 2009.05.29 01:42:00 - [330]
 

Originally by: Th0rG0d
I think the first step would be to up the AI of all known space rats. Since we already have the more "advanced" Sleeper AI, that would be a good start.

Then we can start talking about adjusting bounty/loot tables and/or reorganizing lvl 4s.

Regardless of missions, I think everyone agrees that lo-sec is a barren wasteland, with little incentive to go there, unless you are looking for some pew pew. Maybe decrease some of the more common choke points, and convert some of the border sec systems into lo-sec themselves...... By increasing the number of gates, you can decrease the number of gate camps, until the pirate populations fills in.

Who knows the exact fix, but CCP has to acknowledge the deficiency so they can start addressing the proper solutions.


Doesn't seem like a problem to me.

Also, you do get people doing other stuff. Just not necessarily in the busy systems.


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