open All Channels
seplocked Test Server Feedback
blankseplocked It's time to rebalance the weapons.
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: first : previous : 1 2 [3] 4 5 6 7 8 9 ... : last (22)

Author Topic

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2009.05.25 16:36:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: Julie Thorne
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Another interesting thing is the recent trend towards shield buffer tanking... Shield (buffer) tanks are becoming more and more the reality and norm.


Erm. I just went through more than a hundred killmails (I know you like kbs) and I found 1 (one) shield tanked Myrmiddon - every other Gallente ship that was bigger than a destroyer was armor-tanked. Also every Minmatar ship was armor-tanked except cyclones, stabbers and maels. I can't see the trend you`re talking about.


Not to doubt you, but Battleclinic puts a cap at looking at ~15 loss mails before it stops you, and it doesn't even show you the loss mail unless you're logged in.

Recent kills, BC / Eve-KB
Brutix, Nuetron/Rep
Ferox, Shield Buffer
Hurricane, Armor
Rokh, Shield Buffer
Caracal, Shield Buffer
Drake, Shield Buffer
Hype, Electron/2x LAR
Zealot, Entirely Untanked
Mega, Neutron Plate
Harby, Rep
Crow, Speed
Golem, Shield
Merlin, Shield
Ranis, Armor
Drake, Shield Buffer
Brutix, Armor
Domi, Armor Rep
Raven, Shield
Rokh, Shield
Drake, Shield Buffer
Geddon, Armor Plate
Raven, Shield
Hype, Electron/Rep
Lach, Armor Rep
Falcon, ECM
Stabber, Shield Buffer
Rifter, Shield Buffer
Mega, Armor Plate
Crow, Shield Buffer
Myrm, Armor Plate
Raven, Active Shield
Drake, Shield Buffer
Raven, Shield Buffer
Myrm, Armor Plate
Hound, Untanked
Brutix, Ion/Plate
Geddon, Plate
Drake, Shield Buffer
Mega, Rail/Plate
Tempest, Arty/Plate
Rokh, Active Shield
Nighthawk, Passive Shield
Cormorant, Shield Buffer
Domi, Plate
Vaga, Shield Buffer
Geddon, Plate
Caracal, Shield Buffer
Enyo, Armor Rep
Hurricane, Shield Buffer
Nighthawk, Passive Shield
Caracal, Shield buffer
Tristan, Armor Rep
Wolf, Armor Rep
Sabre, Shield Buffer
Taranis, Armor Rep
Cyclone, Untanked [Gang mods]
Pilgrim, Active Armor
Ferox, Active Shield
Manticore, untanked
Raven, Active Shield
Cheetah, Untanked
Onyx, Shield Buffer
Apoc, Plate
Jag, Shield Buffer
Hurricane, Shield Buffer

Armor tanking: 26
Shield tanking: 32

If you check out by ship class you can see recent kills by ship class. Looking at Brutixes specifically (Eve-KB):
- Armor
- Armor
- Shield
- Armor
- Shield

Looking at Myrms:
- Armor
- Shield

Ferox/Drakes:
- Always Shield

Prophecy/Harbinger:
- Always Armor

/shrug, TBH Julie, dunno what to say, I go look at the first 2 pages and see them. You go look at "hundreds" and don't see any at all... not even shield tanked Hurricanes which is pretty amazing tbqfh.

-Liang

Naomi Knight
Amarr
Posted - 2009.05.25 18:13:00 - [62]
 

battleclinic proves ... :D

Allen Ramses
Caldari
Zombicidal Mania
Posted - 2009.05.25 18:31:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: Naomi Knight
battleclinic proves nothing, it's a tool for people to wave their **** around.
There. Fixed it for you.

Anyway, I think this thread is getting just a tad derailed. I can hardly see what kind of tanks, whether they're active or passive, or how many resists a ship has is related in any way to weapon tracking.

Back on topic pl0x?

Reatu Krentor
Minmatar
Void Spiders
Fate Weavers
Posted - 2009.05.25 18:36:00 - [64]
 

Edited by: Reatu Krentor on 25/05/2009 18:39:54
looking at kill/loss mails isn't going to prove or disprove anything. It only shows that a particular fit couldn't handle the particular situation it was put in. It also only shows what failed not what works Wink. Now if kill/loss mails also showed the fits of all the killers on there, you would possibly get a better idea of what works and what doesn't.

*edit* What I think should be considered is changing the bonuses ammo gives to range. Such as projectile ammo only gives falloff bonuses, hybrids give both falloff and optimal and lasers only optimal. Or all 3 have optimal and falloff bonuses.
Having a falloff bonus on projectile ammo would definately give me a reason to use different types of ammo when using autocannons.

Murina
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.05.25 18:40:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: Reatu Krentor
looking at kill/loss mails isn't going to prove or disprove anything. It only shows that a particular fit couldn't handle the particular situation it was put in. It also only shows what failed not what works Wink. Now if kill/loss mails also showed the fits of all the killers on there, you would possibly get a better idea of what works and what doesn't.



It shows what ships are being flown and how they are fitted.

Reatu Krentor
Minmatar
Void Spiders
Fate Weavers
Posted - 2009.05.25 18:41:00 - [66]
 

Originally by: Murina
Originally by: Reatu Krentor
looking at kill/loss mails isn't going to prove or disprove anything. It only shows that a particular fit couldn't handle the particular situation it was put in. It also only shows what failed not what works Wink. Now if kill/loss mails also showed the fits of all the killers on there, you would possibly get a better idea of what works and what doesn't.



It shows what ships are being flown and how they are fitted.

Correction: it shows how ships that die are being fitted.
Ships that don't die aren't shown

Murina
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.05.25 19:10:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: Reatu Krentor
Originally by: Murina
Originally by: Reatu Krentor
looking at kill/loss mails isn't going to prove or disprove anything. It only shows that a particular fit couldn't handle the particular situation it was put in. It also only shows what failed not what works Wink. Now if kill/loss mails also showed the fits of all the killers on there, you would possibly get a better idea of what works and what doesn't.



It shows what ships are being flown and how they are fitted.

Correction: it shows how ships that die are being fitted.
Ships that don't die aren't shown


All ships die, you can T2 rig and officer pimp any ship in the game or fit it with civilian crap like a total tard and you will die.

As such losses are perfectly fine at judging regularly used fits.

Julie Thorne
14th Legion
Posted - 2009.05.25 19:58:00 - [68]
 

Edited by: Julie Thorne on 25/05/2009 20:01:04
People posting before me are completely right and the forum ate my post so I'll be really short: out of 8 gallente bcs 2 were shieldtanked (I ignored the herotanks and the brutix with the single named medium shieldbooster), every thorax, ishtar, deimos, vexor, hype and phoon was armortanked, Shieldtanking canes are not new so if there's atrend people don't know about it.
Now on topic: I like simple solutions so I'd increase the range mod on null to 1.33 and on barrage to 2, decrease the tracking penalty on hail to 25%, hit conflag with a 25% falloff penalty and increase the damage of high-damage ammos by 1/2/4 (S/M/L). I'd also halve the optimal of artilleries, and double the falloff, change the ship bonuses accordingly, and change the optimal bonus/penalty of tremor/quake to a falloff bonus/penalty. I'd also increase the DPS of arties by 5-10% so the DPS at the "old" optimal would remain roughly the same, drop one of the damage bonuses from the pest (sorry Nightmare) for a falloff bonus, add 2 more turret hardpoits and a few 1000 more PG.

Reatu Krentor
Minmatar
Void Spiders
Fate Weavers
Posted - 2009.05.25 21:45:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: Murina
Originally by: Reatu Krentor
Originally by: Murina
Originally by: Reatu Krentor
looking at kill/loss mails isn't going to prove or disprove anything. It only shows that a particular fit couldn't handle the particular situation it was put in. It also only shows what failed not what works Wink. Now if kill/loss mails also showed the fits of all the killers on there, you would possibly get a better idea of what works and what doesn't.



It shows what ships are being flown and how they are fitted.

Correction: it shows how ships that die are being fitted.
Ships that don't die aren't shown


All ships die, you can T2 rig and officer pimp any ship in the game or fit it with civilian crap like a total tard and you will die.

As such losses are perfectly fine at judging regularly used fits.

Badly fitted ones will die more often then well fitted ones.
If fit, pilot skills(ingame/oog), stability of connection had no influence on how often ships died then you would be correct but they do matter so whatever you see on kb's won't show you what is regularly used, just what is regularly lost.

Takakura Hirohito
Posted - 2009.05.25 22:35:00 - [70]
 

Just leave it alone before something else gets broken. Yes, some systems are better than others. If it was "balanced" each gun would perform the same...all that would matter is the color and shape. That would be horrible. I don't use lasers, but in a few weeks, I will. That's how I deal with it...not by asking CCP for a massive and complicated overhaul of the weapons systems. Rolling Eyes

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2009.05.25 23:31:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: Julie Thorne

People posting before me are completely right and the forum ate my post so I'll be really short: out of 8 gallente bcs 2 were shieldtanked (I ignored the herotanks and the brutix with the single named medium shieldbooster), every thorax, ishtar, deimos, vexor, hype and phoon was armortanked, Shieldtanking canes are not new so if there's atrend people don't know about it.



Originally by: Julie Thorne

I just went through more than a hundred killmails (I know you like kbs) and I found 1 (one) shield tanked Myrmiddon. every other Gallente ship that was bigger than a destroyer was armor-tanked.


...

for every shieldtanked Myrm I found 6 armortanked. I checked a few hunred more killmails and it's the same.

...

Also every Minmatar ship was armor-tanked except cyclones, stabbers and maels.
...
Shieldtanking canes are not new so if there's atrend people don't know about it.



So basically what you're telling me is that the above quote is a lie, because you deliberately discounted both the 2x LSE Brutix and the active shield tanked Brutix (when I did the survey, which was far more detailed and forthright than yours seems to have been, almost half of the Gallente BC's were shield tanked). You additionally seem to have deliberately discounted the shield tanked hurricanes even though I specifically called them out.

A year ago, if someone had a shield tanked brutix fit, it'd have (at best) been a 'lolmail'. 6 months ago and we were at the stage where people were like "I heard about this dude that shield tanked his Brutix", and you might be able to go dig up the killmail to prove it. Today, you log onto BC/Eve-KB and find more than one in minutes.

That, Julie, is what I call a trend. I respect you alot, Julie, but at best you're wrong, and and worst you're deliberately misleading people.

Now, back to the original purpose of my post: I'd like to point out the overwhelming trend towards shield tanking in PVP. Right now, over half the ships in PVP are shield tanked... and it's on the rise - both because of "nontraditional" fits such as shield tanked brutixes/hypes, but also the rise of Caldari as a "viable" and often used PVP race.

Thus, we get back to the final point of my post on resistances: EM damage is not a bad damage type, and certainly not in today's Eve - and what's more interesting is that it's getting better. Thus, no, lasers can not and should not hide behind the "but we're limited to EM damage - and everyone knows its bad!!!!" argument to justify superior stats in other areas (such as range, overall damage, or similar).

Also, to all the people that say killmails aren't a good barometer of what's flown in PVP... heh. You're wrong too. It's really quite simple: every ship in PVP dies, from the uber pimped nano HACs of yore to the RR BS's and sniper HACs of today. They all die, and they will likely find their way (these days) to some killboard or another.

Another thing that you are neglecting is that simply because something died does not mean the pilot did anything wrong. Consider fleet/gang battles... someone's primaried, and that person is dead regardless - even if they're flying a perfectly fit ship.

So while it's true that you'll get alot of "crap fits" (and PVE fits!) in killmails, you'll also find pretty much all of the "good fit" PVP ships too. Oddly enough, this lines out perfectly with what happens in Eve: most of the ships are crap fit, and a few are good. Spending sufficient time examining them will give you an idea of what is out there.

-Liang

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2009.05.25 23:43:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: Reatu Krentor

Badly fitted ones will die more often then well fitted ones.
If fit, pilot skills(ingame/oog), stability of connection had no influence on how often ships died then you would be correct but they do matter so whatever you see on kb's won't show you what is regularly used, just what is regularly lost.


Actually, if you accept the statement that pretty much all PVP ships die, then you've already proven yourself wrong. I any contiguous random sample (read: nothing deliberately omitted and no careful managing of sample sets), there exists a probability of a "good fit" with "good skills" equal to their the probability of their existence.

In English: When a ship dies, fit good or bad, pilot good or bad, they appear on the killboard. When you look at the killboards, you will see both kinds in proportion to their frequency of usage.

-Liang

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2009.05.25 23:48:00 - [73]
 

Originally by: Takakura Hirohito
Just leave it alone before something else gets broken. Yes, some systems are better than others. If it was "balanced" each gun would perform the same...all that would matter is the color and shape. That would be horrible. I don't use lasers, but in a few weeks, I will. That's how I deal with it...not by asking CCP for a massive and complicated overhaul of the weapons systems. Rolling Eyes


No, actually that herald game stagnation, and very soon the game would boil down to a very literal 'Amarr Online' - complete with Armor EM hardeners being on the recommended/mandatory fit list. Note that I too have finally caved in to the siren call of overpowered weapons.... I'm training lasers too. But I'm still going to ***** and moan until there's some balance in the game.

And please note that balance doesn't mean "carbon copy". See Starcraft for an example of largely successful "balance" combined with "diversity".

-Liang

Allen Ramses
Caldari
Zombicidal Mania
Posted - 2009.05.25 23:50:00 - [74]
 

God dammit, will you assclowns get back on topic? The topic is based around the whole of weapons tracking. This has **** all to do with armor tanks vs shield tanks or whether battleclinic is a good source of information.

Tracking. Range. Optimal/Falloff. NONE OF THESE HAVE TO DO WITH KILLBOARDS!!

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2009.05.26 00:27:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: Allen Ramses
God dammit, will you assclowns get back on topic? The topic is based around the whole of weapons tracking. This has **** all to do with armor tanks vs shield tanks or whether battleclinic is a good source of information.

Tracking. Range. Optimal/Falloff. NONE OF THESE HAVE TO DO WITH KILLBOARDS!!


And if you'd pay attention, you'd see that they have everything to do with RESISTS. And if you'd like a 100% compelling numerical argument for pulse lasers being overpowered compared to blasters (and autos being underpowered compared to both), I can damn sure whip that out with a copy and paste from this very forum.

But then you wouldn't realize that even if you win the argument about damage/tracking/optimal, you'll still face the argument of.... resists. Assclown yourself.

-Liang

Julie Thorne
14th Legion
Posted - 2009.05.26 01:09:00 - [76]
 

Edited by: Julie Thorne on 26/05/2009 01:43:36
Just to be clear this is my last offtopic post in this thread because you (edit3: Liang)'re in personal attack mode now and this argument obviously means more to you (edit3: Liang) than to me. But you attacked me personaly so I have to reply.
Originally by: Liang
So basically what you're telling me is that the above quote is a lie, because you deliberately discounted both the 2x LSE Brutix andthe active shield tanked Brutix
No I ignored 1 Brutix, not 2. It had a named medium shieldbooster, DC, reflective (edit: or reactive?) plating and EANM tank. That's a very poor armortank if anything.
Quote:
(when I did the survey, which was far more detailed and forthright than yours seems to have been, almost halfof the Gallente BC's were shield tanked).
Heh. Obviously. In your long list I found 0 shieldtanked gallente BCs.
Originally by: Liang
Myrm, Armor Plate Raven, Active Shield Drake, Shield Buffer Raven, Shield Buffer Myrm, Armor Plate
and then
Originally by: Liang
Looking at Myrms: - Armor- Shield
You seem to have lost an armortanked Myrm or 2 there. I know where you got your list from. I found 10 gallente BCs there: 6 armor, 2 shield, 1 hero, 1 fail. That's not too different from what you found if you include the missing Myrms,
Originally by: Liang
You additionally seem to have deliberately discounted the shield tanked hurricanes even though I specifically called them out.
Maybe because they're nothing new? When I first checked the kbs I found 0, then later I found a few and massive amounts of plated Canes on BC. BTW out of curiousity did you deliberatly discounted 11 armortanked t1 and t2 gallente cruisers? Because 0 shieldtanked out of 11 sure sounds like a trend to me, According to you people started to shieldtank their phoons, hypes, myrms, brutes, ishtars, deimoses and vexors, and you have 3 kms to prove it (and 1 of those is not even shieldtanked). You can call me a liar or you can say that I'm misleading people but that's pretty weak if you ask me. (Edit2 just be clear after my 2nd post I started using the same source as you and ignored everything from BC just to be sure we're on the same page. We're clearly not.)

Allen Ramses
Caldari
Zombicidal Mania
Posted - 2009.05.26 01:19:00 - [77]
 

Edited by: Allen Ramses on 26/05/2009 01:20:13
Originally by: Liang Nuren
And if you'd pay attention, you'd see that they have everything to do with RESISTS. And if you'd like a 100% compelling numerical argument for pulse lasers being overpowered compared to blasters (and autos being underpowered compared to both), I can damn sure whip that out with a copy and paste from this very forum.

But then you wouldn't realize that even if you win the argument about damage/tracking/optimal, you'll still face the argument of.... resists. Assclown yourself.

-Liang
...Seriously? Wow, I never knew tracking, range, and optimal/falloff distribution was affected by resists. Now I know to fit frikkin iFields on a geddon so I dont have to worry about TDs! And I better check Battleclinic often to make sure my tracking is the most efficient it can be!!


Originally by: Julie Thorne
Just to be clear this is my last offtopic post in this thread because you're in personnal attack mode now and this argument obviously means more to you than to me. But you attacked me personnaly so I have to reply.
I asked you guys to stop derailing the thread twice. And you expect me not to get personal after you chose to ignore me in my own thread?

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2009.05.26 01:57:00 - [78]
 

Edited by: Liang Nuren on 26/05/2009 02:06:04
Originally by: Allen Ramses
...Seriously? Wow, I never knew tracking, range, and optimal/falloff distribution was affected by resists. Now I know to fit frikkin iFields on a geddon so I dont have to worry about TDs! And I better check Battleclinic often to make sure my tracking is the most efficient it can be!!



You're being dense. Tracking, range, optimal, falloff, damage, etc all point to a single (real) metric: damage on target. Any damage about these partial metrics is rather meaningless without the whole metric. That metric includes resists.

So you can be an asshat and talk about invulns on a geddon or you can contribute constructively to your own thread. In either case, there's no way you'll get by in any weapons balance thread without dealing with the issue of damage type and resists.

Quote:
I asked you guys to stop derailing the thread twice. And you expect me not to get personal after you chose to ignore me in my own thread?


No, I expect you to pay attention and realize that we're not derailing your thread. We're discussing how frequently EM damage is a good damage type. Think of it like this:

If you deal 5000 DPS and everyone has 99% resists to your damage type, you're probably getting the **** end of the deal in PVP. However, if you're dealing 1000 DPS and everyone has 35% resists to your damage type, you're getting a really ****ing fantastic deal.

Originally by: Julie Thorne
...

No, I haven't deliberately mislead anyone, nor deliberately twisted the data. No, I didn't discount or neglect to mention anything I actually spent the time to look at. I rather specifically posted all results in a semi raw form just to be perfectly clear and forthright. My assumption as to why there's more Gallente BC's on the BC only list is because I assume it went further back in time than the master list I'd looked at.

At any rate, if you'd like to continue this discussion, you're on my buddy list so feel free to shoot me an evemail about it. It wouldn't be the first time. o7

-Liang

Ed: Replied to Julie


-Liang

Chi Quan
Bibkor Enterprises
Posted - 2009.05.26 02:21:00 - [79]
 

Edited by: Chi Quan on 26/05/2009 02:23:10
sorry, wrong answer, pls ignore (or delete if mod)

Lilla Kharn
Amarr
Posted - 2009.05.26 07:22:00 - [80]
 

Don't touch my lazorz.

Mafaka
Amarr
The 5th Freedom
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2009.05.26 08:05:00 - [81]
 

seriously , if u guys dont know how to play and dont like your guns or defense mods and fits - stop asking to change them , just use best available or train for other race

no one cares - seriously , if it was so bad - it would of been fixed by now

its very ******ed to just compare the weapons when u need to take everything in consideration , all the skills , ships, bonuses, mods, drones, strategy behind the use - everything,

some people do not understand this game - we gona just ignore them
this thread is not even worth looking into - i wasted time , plz everyone do not reply

Raimo
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2009.05.26 09:09:00 - [82]
 

Edited by: Raimo on 26/05/2009 13:38:28

Originally by: Mafaka
seriously , if u guys dont know how to play and dont like your guns or defense mods and fits - stop asking to change them , just use best available or train for other race

no one cares - seriously , if it was so bad - it would of been fixed by now

its very ******ed to just compare the weapons when u need to take everything in consideration , all the skills , ships, bonuses, mods, drones, strategy behind the use - everything,

some people do not understand this game - we gona just ignore them
this thread is not even worth looking into - i wasted time , plz everyone do not reply


You're pretty clueless, aren't you?

Edit: Oh, I checked you on Eve-kill and BC. Blob drone that flies Amarr and only 20ish kills? lollllllllll (I don't care if your killboard is private or not btw)

BhallSpawn
Posted - 2009.05.26 10:17:00 - [83]
 

I agree completely with the OP.

Misslies seriously suck hard.

Halycon Gamma
Caldari
The Flying Tigers
United Front Alliance
Posted - 2009.05.26 10:47:00 - [84]
 

Bleh, I'm tired of this. If you wanna compare apples to oranges, go for it. But I'd rather see apples to apples. Go to sisi, setup some medium scale engagements with mixed fleets. 15-30 people per side. Build carbon copies of each ship several times over with the same loadouts, write down amount of damage it put out, amount of damage it took, type of damage/ammo it was using, amount of time it stayed alive, yada yada. After doing this for a couple days, you should have a sufficiently large amount of data to see where... if at all.. things are unbalanced.

If Damage Taken/Damage Received is overly large or small for any one ship, or more importantly any weapons system over a long term multi-engagement set. Theres what needs looking at.

No, I'm not volunteering my time for it. It'd take far too much time and I don't have that sorta time to invest in it.

Oh, and pointing to killboards is flawed. Because it only shows deaths, you don't get an accurate idea of how often something works, only how often something doesn't work. For instance, lets say I have a setup that gets two kills for every one death. If you look at a killboard, my ship will only show up once, even though it was involved in three fights. Given a sufficient amount of fights its all going to turn into noise. You'll see a bunch of different ships die, the only one that will be consistent is my setup, so it will look like the ship that works the least. There isn't enough data to actually work out what is going on, you just see my ship burning up into a lifeless wreck more than every other thing fielded on the list.

You're making the same mistake but on a grander scale. We have no idea WHAT those ships were doing at the time of fit. Were they simply one-off utility setups that aren't actually meant for true combat that got caught in a camp? If they were there for real combat, what sorta efficiency rating do they have? What sorta skills do the pilots involved have? Maybe they have perfect shield skills but very very poor armor tanking skills and fit the ship for what they could do because they wanted to undock their shiny new thing?

We really don't know what was happening. We just know it died. What we could be seeing is a mass exodus from one style of play to another, and people are fitting with the skills they have rather than the skills they want. Without more data pointing out that; "Well, something is suffering more deaths than it used to", doesn't really tell the whole story.

Tuncan
Minmatar
Muppet Ninja's
Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
Posted - 2009.05.26 11:24:00 - [85]
 

Edited by: Tuncan on 26/05/2009 11:30:13
Edited by: Tuncan on 26/05/2009 11:25:14
liang is right about shield FOTM

because
Shield tanked BC >>> hac
and its cheaper, so people started to use them in 0.0

Shield buffer cane is more common
however you can see shield buffered harbingers

Shield tanking is more common than armor tank in nullsec DUE to lack of align speed in armor tanked ships.
Also you can fit more damage mods.
Ive even seen good myrmidon shield tank fits.
They are OK, so people use them.

It's not just uncommon in highsec gatecamping stuff, this doesn't mean that shield tanking is not used.
So for highsec, Amarrian peeps are op due to no need of align speed, ( sit on station, fit full buffer and shoot everything for a total annihilating damage in between 1-30 km. ) You don't even need to move.
For lowsec, shield tanking is more common
so EM therm damage does its job.
pfft life is toooo easy for em

stinger7
eve tutors inc
Posted - 2009.05.26 13:07:00 - [86]
 

Originally by: Halycon Gamma
Bleh, I'm tired of this. If you wanna compare apples to oranges, go for it. But I'd rather see apples to apples. Go to sisi, setup some medium scale engagements with mixed fleets. 15-30 people per side. Build carbon copies of each ship several times over with the same loadouts, write down amount of damage it put out, amount of damage it took, type of damage/ammo it was using, amount of time it stayed alive, yada yada. After doing this for a couple days, you should have a sufficiently large amount of data to see where... if at all.. things are unbalanced.


Thats a stupid idea as all it will show is how ships perform in 15-30 man gangs.


Originally by: Halycon Gamma
Oh, and pointing to killboards is flawed. Because it only shows deaths, you don't get an accurate idea of how often something works, only how often something doesn't work.


You are missing the point:

The more widely a certain type of ship and fit is used in eve means the more often a ship and fit will die, its the simple law of averages.

You seem to think that using loss mails will only show fail fits but the fact is that you can have the best available fit in the game and still die.

Originally by: Halycon Gamma
You're making the same mistake but on a grander scale. We have no idea WHAT those ships were doing at the time of fit. Were they simply one-off utility setups that aren't actually meant for true combat that got caught in a camp? If they were there for real combat, what sorta efficiency rating do they have? What sorta skills do the pilots involved have? Maybe they have perfect shield skills but very very poor armor tanking skills and fit the ship for what they could do because they wanted to undock their shiny new thing?


Thats just it but you seem to be missing two important points.

1. The sampling from battleclinic is not only huge but totally unbiased as it is automatically taken from EVE and as such is not subject to a individuals opinion or perspective.

2. Nobody is saying it should be used solely for balancing, what ppl are doing is adding the data gained from it to other data to give a broader view. This data is used to show how ships are regularly setup and tanked, other data will show other things to give a broad and ubiased result.

Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
Posted - 2009.05.26 13:44:00 - [87]
 

OPs missiles changes are absurd.

Halycon Gamma
Caldari
The Flying Tigers
United Front Alliance
Posted - 2009.05.26 14:39:00 - [88]
 

Originally by: stinger7

Thats a stupid idea as all it will show is how ships perform in 15-30 man gangs.



This is true, I'm of the opinion though that its better to balance for gang combat than solo combat. Doesn't mean I'm right. I just hadn't considered 1v1. And really large scale combat works on such a different frame of reference to make it all but impossible to 'balance' easily.

Originally by: stinger7

You are missing the point:

The more widely a certain type of ship and fit is used in eve means the more often a ship and fit will die, its the simple law of averages.

You seem to think that using loss mails will only show fail fits but the fact is that you can have the best available fit in the game and still die.


Yes and no, a good ship fit will show up more often because its so widely used, but the bad ship fits are still going to be the majority. The problem is figuring out what a "good" and "bad" ship fit is by KB data alone. Especially once you get into non-standard fits, like the shield buffer tank Laing was talking about. Its hard to tell with the point he's trying to make if it is actually a style of play thats becoming more prevalent because its actually good in PVP. Or if its used for other reasons that we aren't privy to. He was only using KB data to backup his assumption that it must be good because he sees more and more of them die. Thats just sloppy logic. Which is why I gave a counter proposal that also fits the data given by the KB.

I'm not saying KB data is worthless. I'm simply saying its useless for proving the stated hypothesis on its own. While there is a LOT of data there, the data collected is too narrow in its scope to give an idea of WHY something is happening. It only says something is happening.

I hope that clears up what I was trying to say above.

Reatu Krentor
Minmatar
Void Spiders
Fate Weavers
Posted - 2009.05.26 14:58:00 - [89]
 

That ^ was my point
You can't start counting killmails to show what is being used a lot or not. It only shows it is being used.
If you have a risky fit(like a classic balls to the wall gankrax) and a nimble nano-style rax, the nano rax can escape more easily and avoid dying in more situations then the other fit and would therefore show up less on killmails. Of course there still would be killmails but their frequency compared to the other fit is lower on the KB then their frequency of use.

Anyway,
I do not think the OP suggestions are good. I do think balance is close and would only change:
For projectiles
  • Vary falloff on tier sizes

  • increase damage modifier on artillery

  • gief Mael damage bonus instead of rate of fire kthx

  • Add a falloff modifier to T1 projectile ammo

For hybrids
  • lock blaster falloff to highest tier amount

For lasers
  • decrease tracking of pulse lasers


Liang Nuren
Posted - 2009.05.26 16:58:00 - [90]
 

Originally by: Halycon Gamma

I'm not saying KB data is worthless. I'm simply saying its useless for proving the stated hypothesis on its own. While there is a LOT of data there, the data collected is too narrow in its scope to give an idea of WHY something is happening. It only says something is happening.



Yes, but you seem to have forgotten what the stated hypothesis was. It was that there is more shield tanking happening in PVP than armor tanking. It went on to list specific examples and back them up with a random sample of killboard data to establish that yes, the ships exist and were used in PVP. I went on to surmise a few reasons why I thought this might be happening.

Your whole post is essentially saying that the only solid conclusion I can draw directly from the killboard data is that more shield tanking is happening in PVP (and by extension, that EM damage is a really good damage type to deal in the aggregate case), and that there are certain ships that are being shield tanked that have historically not been shield tanked.

Yes, I agree. That's what I said, afterall.

Originally by: Keatu Krentor
Of course there still would be killmails but their frequency compared to the other fit is lower on the KB then their frequency of use.


No, as long as you accept the fact that all PVP ships die, then there is no discrepancy between frequency of use and frequency of loss. I think the disconnect that you're having is that you assume any random sample to have your ship in it - and that's obviously false. However, in any sample there will be good and bad fits in direct proportion to their frequency of occurrance.

Another disconnect many seem to have is that ships that "win" don't appear on the loss mail, and thus you can't get their fit. Thus, you only get a picture of what *doesn't work*. However, this is also false, because those ships will die eventually, and thus will end up in the set to be sampled. Consider a situation where a ship kills 500 ships and then dies. In a sampling of the ships, you're almost never going to find that one ship, and thus (you claim) the results are wrong. However, on the flip side, in a sampling of fights, you probably won't encounter him either because the failfit ships are so much more common. Making sense yet?

Also, Keatu, I don't disagree with your analysis if what should happen to resolve the situation, but I would like to add that swapping EMP/Fusion and unnerfing Minnie close range ammo is a really good idea.

-Liang


Pages: first : previous : 1 2 [3] 4 5 6 7 8 9 ... : last (22)

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only