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Rhadamantine
Game Community
Posted - 2009.06.03 19:23:00 - [361]
 

OK, but with the complexity of the game, wouldn't actual use of a weapon system give you more information about it?
I don't use Blasters, so therefore I don't feel able to make comment on them.

So far I've seen many that do use them, asking for a damage boost. I tend to relate to those tbh and that is not meant as a disrespect to you, just how I see it.

bubbly bird
Posted - 2009.06.03 19:24:00 - [362]
 

Edited by: bubbly bird on 03/06/2009 19:28:42
Originally by: Electric Universe
Originally by: bubbly bird
Edited by: bubbly bird on 03/06/2009 19:16:19
Originally by: Electric Universe

I just have to LOL hard to that.

Oh wow, so how is a tracking boost to Blasters important then?. Gang combat makes tracking unimportants as you say when the targets gets webbed.

So how will a tracking boost to Blasters help then?.

If a tracking boost to Blasters will help there, then for sure a tracking nerf to Lasers will also helpWink.


You may have loled but you still edited out the part that explained it....Wink

Maybe if you had left the bit you just deliberatly edited out you would understand.......Rolling EyesLaughing

Still, dreaming for a tracking boost more than 10 max is never going to happen. You know exactly what will happen if Blasters gets more than 10% tracking boost.

Your a dumb monkey if you don't see what will happens then.

But like i said, i'm in for a 7.5% tracking boost as long it doesn't make it into easy mode when it's about killing frigs and cruisers again.


Why post % figures and make claims of what should and should not be done without actually testing their effectivness first.



Electric Universe
The Choir
Posted - 2009.06.03 19:34:00 - [363]
 

Edited by: Electric Universe on 03/06/2009 19:39:27
Originally by: bubbly bird
Edited by: bubbly bird on 03/06/2009 19:28:42
Originally by: Electric Universe
Originally by: bubbly bird
Edited by: bubbly bird on 03/06/2009 19:16:19
Originally by: Electric Universe

I just have to LOL hard to that.

Oh wow, so how is a tracking boost to Blasters important then?. Gang combat makes tracking unimportants as you say when the targets gets webbed.

So how will a tracking boost to Blasters help then?.

If a tracking boost to Blasters will help there, then for sure a tracking nerf to Lasers will also helpWink.


You may have loled but you still edited out the part that explained it....Wink

Maybe if you had left the bit you just deliberatly edited out you would understand.......Rolling EyesLaughing

Still, dreaming for a tracking boost more than 10 max is never going to happen. You know exactly what will happen if Blasters gets more than 10% tracking boost.

Your a dumb monkey if you don't see what will happens then.

But like i said, i'm in for a 7.5% tracking boost as long it doesn't make it into easy mode when it's about killing frigs and cruisers again.


Why post % figures and make claims of what should and should not be done without actually testing their effectivness first.




Many that use Large Blasters every day that i know about doesn't cry that they have problems to kill frigs and cruisers or other ship types. They just say it's much harder to kill frigs and cruisers, but are still killing them, because they know how to do it right.

I'm sure they know how good the Blasters is and they are actually testing the Blasters good enough to say Blasters is fine.

For what Blasters are designed to do, they are 100% fine atm.

The only reason you scream for a boost to Blasters is ONLY because of Lasers.

But then, everybody knows that Lasers are a little overpowered today. So it's just stupid to compare Blasters to Lasers then.

It doesn't help at all to come with tracking boost examples as long it goes totally against the web nerf. you have to understand that.

CCP doesn't nerf webs so Large guns isn't an instakill weapon to frigs and cruisers and then later boost the tracking that breaks the concept of how Large guns and webs are working today.

bubbly bird
Posted - 2009.06.03 19:38:00 - [364]
 

Originally by: Electric Universe

Uhm, LOL, your doing something very wrong then.


No im not you just have no idea how these systems operate.

Originally by: Electric Universe
You still have to work really hard to be able to kill a frig with Large Blasters. It's very possible to kill a frig in a BS with Large Blasters ONLy if your smart enough.


Not if the frig pilot has a brain its not and you would know that if you had ever flown a blaster BS.

Originally by: Electric Universe
RING RING, the bell is ringing. The web nerf was to prevent ships with Large Blasters or other ships with Large guns to kill frigs and eventually cruisers easily.


RING RING, you and others in this thread and others have gone on and on about how blaster ships are supposed to be solo ships and then you say they should suck against virtually every ship in the game that is smaller than they are.

MAKE UP YOUR MIND YOU CANNOT HAVE BOTH.

Originally by: Electric Universe
And now your going omg omg i can't kill a frig easily in a BS with Large Blasters. OMG GIVE THE BLASTERS A BOOST.


Personally i could not give a toss about blasters easily hitting frigs id rather see blaster BS being boosted so they are more effective in the only sort of combat BS really have available to them...GANG COMBAT.

But you tend dribble on about blaster BS supposedly being solo ships and if that is the case they should be made to be effective solo shoips and have the ability to destroy small ships reasonably easily in their optimal.

SO AS I SAID MAKE UP YOUR MIND ARE YOU GONNA BOOST THEM TO BE MORE EFFECTIVE SOLO SHIPS OR MORE EFFECTIVE GANG SHIPS.

bubbly bird
Posted - 2009.06.03 19:43:00 - [365]
 

Edited by: bubbly bird on 03/06/2009 19:46:52
Originally by: Electric Universe


Many that use Large Blasters every day that i know about doesn't cry that they have problems to kill frigs and cruisers or other ship types. They just say it's much harder to kill frigs and cruisers, but are still killing them, because they know how to do it right.


A easy claim to make but i have yet to see anybody jump into this thread to back you up with a recient and long list of kills against frigs ect while they were flying solo blaster BS.....

Myself along with others are getting tired of your constant "i know ppl who know ppl who iz uber blaster BS solo pvpers so every thing is fine and anybody who disagrees suxors at pvp" bull.

So to coin a popular EVE phrase "PROOF OR STFU".

Electric Universe
The Choir
Posted - 2009.06.03 19:47:00 - [366]
 

Edited by: Electric Universe on 03/06/2009 19:52:30
Originally by: bubbly bird
Originally by: Electric Universe

Uhm, LOL, your doing something very wrong then.


No im not you just have no idea how these systems operate.

Originally by: Electric Universe
You still have to work really hard to be able to kill a frig with Large Blasters. It's very possible to kill a frig in a BS with Large Blasters ONLy if your smart enough.


Not if the frig pilot has a brain its not and you would know that if you had ever flown a blaster BS.

Originally by: Electric Universe
RING RING, the bell is ringing. The web nerf was to prevent ships with Large Blasters or other ships with Large guns to kill frigs and eventually cruisers easily.


RING RING, you and others in this thread and others have gone on and on about how blaster ships are supposed to be solo ships and then you say they should suck against virtually every ship in the game that is smaller than they are.

MAKE UP YOUR MIND YOU CANNOT HAVE BOTH.

Originally by: Electric Universe
And now your going omg omg i can't kill a frig easily in a BS with Large Blasters. OMG GIVE THE BLASTERS A BOOST.


Personally i could not give a toss about blasters easily hitting frigs id rather see blaster BS being boosted so they are more effective in the only sort of combat BS really have available to them...GANG COMBAT.

But you tend dribble on about blaster BS supposedly being solo ships and if that is the case they should be made to be effective solo shoips and have the ability to destroy small ships reasonably easily in their optimal.

SO AS I SAID MAKE UP YOUR MIND ARE YOU GONNA BOOST THEM TO BE MORE EFFECTIVE SOLO SHIPS OR MORE EFFECTIVE GANG SHIPS.

To the first thing.

I for sure knows how they work. I know Large Blasters isn't supposed to kill frigs and cruisers as easily as you want them to kill them.

2nd thing.

Alright, the player is smarter than you. And that means he knows 100% how to kill you and you will have poroblems then. And because your in a BS, your not supposed to kill him so easily anyways.

Any players in whatever ship that is smarter than you can kill your Blaster Mega with no problems.

3rd thing.

And then you goes bawwwww Solo PVP doesn't exist today if we tell that a Blaster Mega is a good Solo / Small PVP ship. So is there a point to say it's a good solo pvp ships if you moan bawwww solo PVP is dead all the time then?.

4th thing.

In gang combat where we use Blaster Megas today in RR gangs are very very effective if a skilled and experienced player are piloting that Blaster Mega. It have been shown billions of times and still yhou want the Blasters to be even better.

Deva posted several links to the Tri kb earlier where he did shows how effective an RR gang with Blaster Megas and RR geddons can be.

If Blasters gets a boost bigger than 7.5% to tracking, it will just be to good / overpowered. And will just be FOTM and OP again.
Originally by: bubbly bird
Edited by: bubbly bird on 03/06/2009 19:46:52
Originally by: Electric Universe


Many that use Large Blasters every day that i know about doesn't cry that they have problems to kill frigs and cruisers or other ship types. They just say it's much harder to kill frigs and cruisers, but are still killing them, because they know how to do it right.


A easy claim to make but i have yet to see anybody jump into this thread to back you up with a recient and long list of kills against frigs ect while they were flying solo blaster BS.....

Myself along with others are getting tired of your constant "i know ppl who know ppl who iz uber blaster BS solo pvpers so every thing is fine and anybody who disagrees suxors at pvp" bull.

So to coin a popular EVE phrase "PROOF OR STFU".


My proof is: Ask Darknesss or Leilani Solaris for example if you have the balls to get the proof smashed into your face yourselfLaughing.

I'm sure they will teach you how to use Blasters right if they have the time to do it.

Lord Eremet
Posted - 2009.06.03 19:51:00 - [367]
 

I would rather see that CCP fixes the tracking formula first before they give any ship a tracking boost. Then when thats done they could do a fair comparison of all races guns and boost/nerf tracking as they see fit.

More damage for blasters? Auto-cannons need at least a 10% increase before blasters do. That "identify problems-thread that CCP moved elsewhere (I assume they did it because they don't want to spend resources at fixing it) clearly showed that the General consensus is that projectiles is one of 3 big things that need fixing. If thats not enough for CCP then nothing never will be.


Deva, the Tempest is the fleet ship for artys. Maelstrom is to big and cumbersome to be in fleets and the shieldtanking bonus is just lol in that area. AC's is the way to go with it rigged with ambits.

Nostredeus Morphius
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2009.06.03 19:54:00 - [368]
 

I have to laugh at how much you all flame each other, you do realise that as a business CCP is not as likely to respond in a thread where everyone is bickering like little kids.

Originally by: bubbly bird
Edited by: bubbly bird on 03/06/2009 19:03:53
Stuff...



Okay I want to respond to this as best as I can for you, basically you are looking at the balance of the weapon systems as separate entities.

They are all related so their changes should be related, the tracking decrease on the lasers is not for the lasers as much as it is for the other two weapon systems, at the moment lasers (as someone correctly said) are best from about 8km+ if auto canons are to dictate range to lasers they need to do that safely within that 8km therefore the lasers could acceptably loose a bit of tracking and it wouldn't effect them too much.

I want to say at this point that I am happy leaving lasers alone but that the consensus is to reduce their tracking, which is what I put in the brackets.

Blasters will need to be able to contend with ships within their optimal, personally I see little wrong with them but a slight tracking increase wont hurt them and that seems to be the general consensus.

Also you say you haven't done the maths, seeing as the weapon systems are linked you clearly have little to no data to work from and therefore scientifically speaking you are not likely to be right in your opinion.

Electric Universe
The Choir
Posted - 2009.06.03 19:55:00 - [369]
 

Originally by: Lord Eremet
I would rather see that CCP fixes the tracking formula first before they give any ship a tracking boost. Then when thats done they could do a fair comparison of all races guns and boost/nerf tracking as they see fit.

Yes, this is something i have said many times here already.

I know there are issues in the tracking formula that makes Blasters for example in some situations to be poor. But hey, it's not Blasters fault.

So before i eventually accept a 7.5% tracking boost to large Blasters, then i want to see the tracking formula fixed.

And then lets see how each weapons are performing.

bubbly bird
Posted - 2009.06.03 19:55:00 - [370]
 

Originally by: Electric Universe

To the first thing.

I for sure knows how they work. I know Large Blasters isn't supposed toi kill frigs and cruisers as easily as you want them to kill them.


I already told you i think that solo pvp is dead for BS so i do not care if BS blasters can easily hit frigs.


Originally by: Electric Universe
Alright, the player is smarter than you. And that means he knows 100% how to kill you and you will have poroblems then. And because your in a BS, your not supposed to kill him so easily anyways.

Any players in whatever ship that is smarter than you can kill your Blaster Mega with no problems.


Its not about being smarter its about basic piloting knowledge and the ability of the ships allowing frigs to easily tackle and hold a BS while remaning immune.


Originally by: Electric Universe
And then you goes bawwwww Solo PVP doesn't exist today if we tell thast a Megathron is a good Solo / Small PVP ship. So is there a point to say it's a good solo pvp ships if you moan bawwww solo PVP is dead all the time?.


Thats the point, solo B pvp is dead so the ships that were used for it need adjusting to be better at what is now avaiulable for them.

Do try to keep up.Rolling Eyes


Originally by: Electric Universe
In gang combat where we use Blaster megas today in RR gangs are very very effective if a skilled and experienced player are piloting that Blaster Mega. it have been shown billions of times and still you want the Blasters to be even better.


Just because they CAN be useful does not mean things are balanced.

Originally by: Electric Universe
Deva posted several links to the Tri kb where he did shows how effective an RR gang with Blaster Megas and RR geddons can be.



And he is also one of the ppl asking for buffs/adjustment.

bubbly bird
Posted - 2009.06.03 19:57:00 - [371]
 

Originally by: Electric Universe


My proof is: Ask Darknesss or Leilani Solaris for example if you have the balls to get the proof smashed into your face yourselfLaughing.

I'm sure they will teach you how to use Blasters right if they have the time


A easy claim to make but i have yet to see anybody jump into this thread to back you up with a recient and long list of kills against frigs ect while they were flying solo blaster BS.....

Myself along with others are getting tired of your constant "i know ppl who know ppl who iz uber blaster BS solo pvpers so every thing is fine and anybody who disagrees suxors at pvp" bull.

So to coin a popular EVE phrase "PROOF OR STFU".


Electric Universe
The Choir
Posted - 2009.06.03 20:01:00 - [372]
 

Edited by: Electric Universe on 03/06/2009 20:02:56
bubbly bird.

It doesn't matter what you have to say. Want a bigger tracking boost than 10% is asking for one thing. And it goes totally against the web nerf.

Or if your thinking gang PVP, then what's the point with a tracking boost to Large Blasters if a tracking nerf to Lasers doesn't have anything to say?.

Can YOU give me a damn good proof that Blasters need a tracking boost when Lasers doesn't need a tracking nerf in gang PVP?.

bubbly bird
Posted - 2009.06.03 20:12:00 - [373]
 

Edited by: bubbly bird on 03/06/2009 20:22:05
Originally by: Electric Universe


It doesn't matter what you have to say. Want a bigger tracking boost than 10% is asking for one thing. And it goes totally against the web nerf.


Then the facts need to be used to force ccp to make a change.

If solo BS should be crap against every ship smaller than other BS the ships/systems/fits previously designated "solo pvp BS" need a full work over to bring them up to date for the kinds of pvp avaiulable to BS now.

Amaar BS were given the best range by far, best dps at every range apart from 0-6km (and even their they hit bloody hard), good tracking and the very best gang tanks in the game MAKING THEM THE UBER GANG PVP BS IN EVE.

Blaster BS were supposed to be solo uber pwnage ships but then CCP in its infinite wisdom decided to make BS suck at solo by gimping speed, webs and a few other things that coupled with populartion density killed solo BS pvp.

So blaster BS need to be given back their solo pwnage ability (and thats a tacking buff so they are effective against small ships) or they need to be made better gang ships WITH:

A much better ehp tank, DPS and maybe speed agility to help them considering the range they need to work at in gang combat.

Electric Universe
The Choir
Posted - 2009.06.03 20:20:00 - [374]
 

Edited by: Electric Universe on 03/06/2009 20:22:57
Originally by: bubbly bird
Originally by: Electric Universe


It doesn't matter what you have to say. Want a bigger tracking boost than 10% is asking for one thing. And it goes totally against the web nerf.


Then the facts need to be used to force ccp to make a change.

If solo BS should be crap against every ship smaller than other BS the ships/systems/fits previously designated "solo pvp BS" need a full work over to bring them up to date for the kinds of pvp avaiulable to BS now.

Amaar BS were given the best range by far, best dps at every range apart from 0-6km (and even their they hit bloody hard), good tracking and the very best gang tanks in the game MAKING THEM THE UBER GANG PVP BS IN EVE.

Blaster BS were supposed to be solo uber pwnage ships but then CCP in its infinite wisdom decided to make BS suck at solo by gimping speed, webs and a few other things that coupled with populartion density killed solo BS pvp.


Uhm, Blaster Megas today in RR gangs are very good. And it's there they are really good today. Yes they are still good as a solo boat to, but it's more limited today because of so much blobbing and that. But it's still doable if you use scout alts.

Amarr BS'es hit bloody hard?, HAH, then you haven't tried to shoot an omni tanked TempestLaughing. That Tempest tanks a 1200+ DPS gank geddon as long the Tempest have cap boosters with one LAR II fittedWink.

A 2x damage mods Blaster Mega does more DPS after resists than both a 3x damage mods geddon and Abaddon does to.

Yes Blaster BS'es are supposed to be a good solo ship today, and it's still that. But to some points. Because of how EVE have evolved and after blobbing just got bigger and bigger, then solo PVP isn't easy at all today.

So gang PVP is the most common PVP style today. And because of that, Blaster Mega's are heavily used there, because they are extremely good there.

And because tracking is unimportant in gang PVP as you say, because in 99% of all times the fights are in the Blasters optimal range no matter what. And when the targets are webbed there and when Blasters have a HUGE tracking there.

Then my question is. Why do Blasters need a tracking boost?.

bubbly bird
Posted - 2009.06.03 20:27:00 - [375]
 

Originally by: Electric Universe


Amarr BS'es hit bloody hard?, HAH, then you haven't tried to shoot an omni tanked TempestLaughing. That Tempest tanks a 1200+ DPS gank geddon as long the Tempest have cap boosters with one LAR II fittedWink.


I was about to ask wtf 1 v 1 sissi active tank pvp had to do with anything but then i realized who i was talking to.....Rolling Eyes

Originally by: Electric Universe
A 2x damage mods Blaster Mega does more DPS after resists than both a 3x damage mods geddon and Abaddon does to.


Not against the abaddons tank it does'nt, in fact the 3 x hs abaddon does more dmg on the mega than a 3 x mag stab mega does against the abaddon after resists.

Originally by: Electric Universe
Yes Blaster BS'es are supposed to be a good solo ship today, and it's still that.


Rubbish it can be kited and tackled or kited and killed by almost every ship in the classes smaller than BS.

So good at solo my arse.Laughing

Electric Universe
The Choir
Posted - 2009.06.03 20:37:00 - [376]
 

Edited by: Electric Universe on 03/06/2009 20:51:29
Originally by: bubbly bird
Originally by: Electric Universe


Amarr BS'es hit bloody hard?, HAH, then you haven't tried to shoot an omni tanked TempestLaughing. That Tempest tanks a 1200+ DPS gank geddon as long the Tempest have cap boosters with one LAR II fittedWink.


I was about to ask wtf 1 v 1 sissi active tank pvp had to do with anything but then i realized who i was talking to.....Rolling Eyes

Originally by: Electric Universe
A 2x damage mods Blaster Mega does more DPS after resists than both a 3x damage mods geddon and Abaddon does to.


Not against the abaddons tank it does'nt, in fact the 3 x hs abaddon does more dmg on the mega than a 3 x mag stab mega does against the abaddon after resists.

Originally by: Electric Universe
Yes Blaster BS'es are supposed to be a good solo ship today, and it's still that.


Rubbish it can be kited and tackled or kited and killed by almost every ship in the classes smaller than BS.

So good at solo my arse.Laughing

Dude, was i talking about sisi here?. We have something called TQ.

And a 1200+ DPS gank geddon on Sisi wont hit a Tempest any harder if it was a 1200+ DPS gank geddon on TQ. 1200 DPS is still 1200 DPS.

Yes the Abaddon have higher resists than the Megathron in total. And if you put in 50-60 mill isk extra into the Megathron instead of paying that much extra to get an Abaddon, you will do around 1% more DPS than the Abaddon after resists then.

Yes the Mega will have a little lower resists than the Abaddon, but still after resists the Mega does around 1% more DPS with 2x damage mods over the 3x damage mods Abaddon because of the damage types Blasters does.

Because a Mega have really high EM and Thermal resists, while an Abaddon have Kinetic and Thermal resists a bit lower than the Mega have EM and Thermal resists.

LOL, no matter what you say, if you just want it and want to risk to lose your ship, then a Blaster Mega is still a good solo PVP ship even when you risk to lose the ship sometimes.

Remember that this only applies to really experienced PVP players who knows 110% what they are doing.

EDIT: LOL, NightmareX told me that he have spend 400 mill isk more into his Navy MegaTwisted Evil.

See here, this is his new setup: LINK.

Yes, that's with his skills. With all skills on level 5, he will have 81.7% EM resist just to tell you how much better the rest of the resists gets to.

He doesn't have a slave set right now, that's why you only see 42k armor. With a LG slave set, he will get 286k EHP.

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2009.06.03 21:44:00 - [377]
 

Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 03/06/2009 23:22:39

Beverly Sparks
Posted - 2009.06.04 03:37:00 - [378]
 

Edited by: Beverly Sparks on 04/06/2009 03:39:26
Originally by: Deva Blackfire

RAGERAGERAGE

Now read up and you will see that the proposed idea is AFTER boosting ACs BASE faloff to 40km (so 2x boost) and then adding ANOTHER 1,5x faloff bonus to ship. This means the range gets increased 3x before we even include skills and barrage. 60km faloff on EMP?

Yes apoc has that range on guns. It pays with decent cap use + worse tracking + needs to use lows to get that far. FYI apoc range is 62+10 maxskill (no TEs).

TBH if ya want to do this, sure go for it. Just kill tracking to level of pulse lasers. Either long range weapon with poor tracking or short-mid with good.

And sitting 80km from it in frig? I would be worried if it was bomber or EAS.


If I am sitting 80km from any turret BS, I am worried, especially an Apoc. Since I am well within his range regargless of Pulses or beams.

If higher range equals lower tracking, then explain the arty/beam relationship then.

And I would say that AC's are supposed to be a versatile weapon with fairly low damage at all ranges in comparison with peak damage output of the others, but iut is a weapon that does ok damage through all ranges. At present that describes lasers, except with high damage. One other solution is just a straight up Laser Damage nerf. That would equalize a lot, tbh. But I would prefer to buff Blasters and AC's then nerf lasers.

Electric Universe
The Choir
Posted - 2009.06.04 04:21:00 - [379]
 

Edited by: Electric Universe on 04/06/2009 04:24:59
Originally by: Beverly Sparks
But I would prefer to buff Blasters and AC's then nerf lasers.

I would rather say buff Autocannons a little and nerf Lasers tracking back to how it was before it got the tracking boost some years ago. And then leave Blasters as they are now.

Raimo
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2009.06.04 04:47:00 - [380]
 

Originally by: Electric Universe
Edited by: Electric Universe on 04/06/2009 04:24:59
Originally by: Beverly Sparks
But I would prefer to buff Blasters and AC's then nerf lasers.

I would rather say buff Autocannons a little and nerf Lasers tracking back to how it was before it got the tracking boost some years ago. And then leave Blasters as they are now.


In this case Blasters would nee a bit of a tracking *and* damage boost. Otherwise seems fine.

Electric Universe
The Choir
Posted - 2009.06.04 04:54:00 - [381]
 

Edited by: Electric Universe on 04/06/2009 04:58:41
Originally by: Raimo
Originally by: Electric Universe
Edited by: Electric Universe on 04/06/2009 04:24:59
Originally by: Beverly Sparks
But I would prefer to buff Blasters and AC's then nerf lasers.

I would rather say buff Autocannons a little and nerf Lasers tracking back to how it was before it got the tracking boost some years ago. And then leave Blasters as they are now.


In this case Blasters would nee a bit of a tracking *and* damage boost. Otherwise seems fine.

And can you explain to me why Blasters need a DPS and tracking boost only because Autocannons need a little DPS boost and because Lasers need to have it's tracking nerfed?.

LOL, you don't nerf lasers if you boost BlastersLaughing.

You nerf the Lasers tracking a little bit and leaves the Blasters alone as they are now. And then you boost the AC's. Even when the Autocannons had got a 10% DPS boost for example, it would still be a little bit poorer than Blaster.

Kalintos Tyl
Minmatar
Bloody Amarr's
Posted - 2009.06.04 06:23:00 - [382]
 

blaster mega still melts webed cruisers, whats your problem? 500k sp in gunnery maybe?

Rhadamantine
Game Community
Posted - 2009.06.04 06:26:00 - [383]
 

Originally by: Electric Universe

LOL, you don't nerf lasers if you boost BlastersLaughing.

You nerf the Lasers tracking a little bit and leaves the Blasters alone as they are now. And then you boost the AC's. Even when the Autocannons had got a 10% DPS boost for example, it would still be a little bit poorer than Blaster.


Even I can see that balance, sometimes requires the nerfing and buffing of different systems.
From what I've ascertained in these threads:

The buff to tracking that Lasers received, needs reverting back.

Then a buff to ac's and blasters to more clearly define there roles.

A damage and tracking boost to blasters and a damage and falloff boost for ac's.
It's just what amounts the boosts should be, that seems to be the sticking point atm.

To mare
Amarr
Advanced Technology
Posted - 2009.06.04 07:37:00 - [384]
 

Edited by: To mare on 04/06/2009 07:39:22
a blaster mega is fine vs cruiser you just need a bit of manouvering, ok it cant hit frigate sized ships when they are close and orbiting but this is a part of the game, no ships can be effective vs all the others ship and if you want a tracking bonus to make the able to kill everything that get in blaster range just give up you wont get it.
a bit of tracking 5% / 10% could be ok just because blaster are the shortest ranged weapon of the games and maybe they should track better than AC at extreme close range but thats all.

blaster are a hard weapon to use, there more than just approach > gank you need skill (not SP but real skill) to land in the place you need to do full damage.

also gallente are versatile ships no one force you to fit 7 neutron blaster and 5 ogre, if you really want to be safe from small ships try to go 4 ogre + 1 set of warrior or 7 ion + a heavy neut.


Nuts Nougat
SniggWaffe
FREE KARTTOON NOW
Posted - 2009.06.04 08:55:00 - [385]
 

Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Now read up and you will see that the proposed idea is AFTER boosting ACs BASE faloff to 40km (so 2x boost) and then adding ANOTHER 1,5x faloff bonus to ship. This means the range gets increased 3x before we even include skills and barrage. 60km faloff on EMP?


I'm pretty sure I said keep tempest as it is, and keep the 10% bonus on the vargur (which still wouldn't be used at all probably, cause lolmarauders). Yes i know the numbers are ******ed, i just pulled them out of my ass. 40km with TA5 would be probably best though, that's 60k with barrage, 90k on a vargur. And we still have to sacrifice rigs for more range cause TE/TC do nothing for autocannons -> apocs can fit trimarks, AC boats stay paper.

As a comparison megapulse with scorch has 45km optimal with 10km falloff at level 5 sharpshooter/TA. So unless you want to sacrifice a lot of your AC dps, or have falloff rigs the scorch guy will still be doing some dps too. (ie dps curve is steepest at optimal+falloff so every km counts here..)

Also I wouldn't mind a tracking nerf at all if it meant I can shoot past scorch pulse. I even suggested it heh. If it had same tracking as pulse I think it'd be pretty good... Same tracking, can shoot past pulse, but at **** dps. Let's face it, you'll never hit interceptors anyway, and everyone else fits an extender/plate so at your **** dps you're not popping frigs either before they warp out. Besides, that's what muninns are for :P

bubbly bird
Posted - 2009.06.04 09:38:00 - [386]
 

Edited by: bubbly bird on 04/06/2009 10:25:19






Originally by: Electric Universe


Dude, was i talking about sisi here?. We have something called TQ.

And a 1200+ DPS gank geddon on Sisi wont hit a Tempest any harder if it was a 1200+ DPS gank geddon on TQ. 1200 DPS is still 1200 DPS.


The sort of fight you are talking about only happens on sissi.

Stop wasting ppls time with your worthless 1 v 1 sissi data as anybody can setup a active tank BS so it can tank 1200+dps from 2 dmg types.

Originally by: Electric Universe
Yes the Abaddon have higher resists than the Megathron in total. And if you put in 50-60 mill isk extra into the Megathron instead of paying that much extra to get an Abaddon, you will do around 1% more DPS than the Abaddon after resists then.


WRONG.

Even if you use faction ANP's it will still have less, but even if it did have 1% more we are talking about the range being in blaster optimal so the dps differance should be at least 10-20%.

Originally by: Electric Universe
LOL, no matter what you say, if you just want it and want to risk to lose your ship, then a Blaster Mega is still a good solo PVP ship even when you risk to lose the ship sometimes.


Get a frigging clue you fool a solo ship that is either useless or vulnerable to almost EVERY ship smaller than it is a useless solo ship.



Originally by: Electric Universe
EDIT: LOL, NightmareX told me that he have spend 400 mill isk more into his Navy MegaTwisted Evil.

See here, this is his new setup: LINK.

Yes, that's with his skills. With all skills on level 5, he will have 81.7% EM resist just to tell you how much better the rest of the resists gets to.

He doesn't have a slave set right now, that's why you only see 42k armor. With a LG slave set, he will get 286k EHP.



There has already been a warning given to brining up alts and who's who trolling of this thread so i suggest you pack in using such obvious bait in your posts to try and start off topic arguments about your main cos i will be reporting it and pointing out your provocations, manipulations and lies.




bubbly bird
Posted - 2009.06.04 09:56:00 - [387]
 

Edited by: bubbly bird on 04/06/2009 10:06:07

Originally by: Nostredeus Morphius


They are all related so their changes should be related, the tracking decrease on the lasers is not for the lasers as much as it is for the other two weapon systems, at the moment lasers (as someone correctly said) are best from about 8km+ if auto canons are to dictate range to lasers they need to do that safely within that 8km therefore the lasers could acceptably loose a bit of tracking and it wouldn't effect them too much.


And in a game where 1 v 1 pvp is the rule and webs do not exist that idea will be fine....now how do you intend to deal with the issue in EVE?.

Sorry bud but it is you who is the one with the limited understanding if you are trying to balance systems around a 1 v 1 modal.

I did a test in another thread that reduced the tracking of BS pulse lasers so much they tracked the same as a BLASTER DREADNAUGHT IN SIEGE (about 6 pilgrim fitted TD's hitting a abaddon using scorch and low tracking skill does it), they still hit a webbed BS at uber close range easily.



Originally by: Nostredeus Morphius
Also you say you haven't done the maths, seeing as the weapon systems are linked you clearly have little to no data to work from and therefore scientifically speaking you are not likely to be right in your opinion.


I said i had not done the math on the AC, i had done it on blasters and lasers.

But then i know you did no researh at all as i can see clearly from your alleged findings about lasers and blasters.

To mare
Amarr
Advanced Technology
Posted - 2009.06.04 11:23:00 - [388]
 

Originally by: bubbly bird

I did a test in another thread that reduced the tracking of BS pulse lasers so much they tracked the same as a BLASTER DREADNAUGHT IN SIEGE (about 6 pilgrim fitted TD's hitting a abaddon using scorch and low tracking skill does it), they still hit a webbed BS at uber close range easily.



can you explain what this should mean?
maybe that pulse with tracking disruptor on them are better than blaster at the same close range?

not a flame i dont get it really

Admiral IceBlock
Caldari
Northern Intelligence
Posted - 2009.06.04 11:58:00 - [389]
 

If it were up to me I would do this, short draft of what I have in mind:

All weapon systems should be usefull without specialized ship bonus. However, the ship bonuses should help define the role of the ship.

Amarr & Lasers
- Remove capacitor bonus from all their ships.
- Give their ships other bonuses; armor resistance, armor bonus, falloff, tracking, something clever for armor race.
- Increase damage of lasers to compensate for the removed capacitor bonus.

Caldari & Railguns/Missiles
- Remove missile damage bonus from all ships.
- Give their ships other bonuses; shield resistance, optimal, ECM, something clever for electronic race.
- Increase damage of missiles to compensate for the removed missile damage bonus ASWELL AS due to some ships having twin-weapon systems. This way, missiles will be totally skill related and not make ships like the Typhoon with twin-weaopons systems subpar.
- Rockets OMFG! Gigantic damage boost, lowered rof. Should be mini-torpedoes and not an autocannon shooting projectiles.
- HAMS! Damage boost; medium sized torpedoes.

Minmatar & Artillery/Autocannons
- Tweak autocannons.
- Boost artillery damage; high alpha, low rof.
- Remove missile bonuses due to missile change.

Gallente & Blasters/Drones
- Increase the damage of blasters.


All races and weapons
- Make ships have linear upgrades to their class. E.g:
- Punisher -> Omen -> Armageddon.
- ... -> Maller -> Abaddon?
- Kestrel -> Caracal -> Raven.
- Griffin -> Blackbird -> Scorpion.
- ... -> Vexor -> Dominix.
- Rifter -> Rupture -> Tempest.
- Vigil -> Stabber -> Typhoon?

bubbly bird
Posted - 2009.06.04 12:10:00 - [390]
 

Originally by: To mare
Originally by: bubbly bird

I did a test in another thread that reduced the tracking of BS pulse lasers so much they tracked the same as a BLASTER DREADNAUGHT IN SIEGE (about 6 pilgrim fitted TD's hitting a abaddon using scorch and low tracking skill does it), they still hit a webbed BS at uber close range easily.



can you explain what this should mean?
maybe that pulse with tracking disruptor on them are better than blaster at the same close range?

not a flame i dont get it really


Its fine im happy to explain.

The premise was that BS lasers were virtually as good as BS blasters at blasters 4.5km optimal while lasers also having a vast range and dps advantage from out to 45+km that blasters do not get.

Now to solve this ppl wanted to make lasers worse at close range, that idea in of itself has some merit but doing so is more than a little problematic due to the reality of BS pvp.

One suggestion was to nerf BS laser tracking.

Now on paper or on a EFT graph showing a 1 v 1 BS fight the solution looked quite reasonable BUT when applied to TQ pvp and you factor in that multiple ships will be involved along with the target ship (a BS in this case) will have multiple webs on it as well as its orbit/transversal being utterly subjective to a single ship to be quite honest tracking becomes irrelavant even at the closest of ranges.

So to point this out i fitted a abaddon with T2 pulse loaded with scorch, i then fired 6 max shilled and pilgrim fitted tracking disruptors loaded with tracking speed scripts at it and reduced the abaddon pilots turret tracking skill (motion prediction) to 0.

The result was that the abaddon turrets had a tracking speed of 0.00207 (a good skilled pilot with MF gets 0.04219 btw) that is about as bad as you can gimp tracking and close to a sieged dreads tracking.

Then i fitted a standard BS with the usual plates and mwd gang setup and set it to orbit the abaddon with full transversal i then applied multiple webs on the target to simulate a gang combat effect, i slso left the abaddon stationary and made no attempt to reduce the transversal effect through piloting ect.


The result was that even with such awsomly butchered tracking and in the worst possable condition as well as the target ship having a constant and perfect transversal orbit (a thing impossable on TQ as you well know) the abaddon was still hitting the target for significan dmg inside blaster optimal.


So for those who missed the point:

If after having its tracking screwed over down to 0.00207 while a good skilled pilot with MF gets 0.04219(im not sre what % that is but its a lotShocked) a pulse BS can still hit at uber close range, how is a rather pitiful 7.5%-10% tracking nerf to pulse gonna do anything worthwhile?.

I hope this clarifies things a little.


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