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bubbly bird
Posted - 2009.06.03 07:37:00 - [331]
 

Edited by: bubbly bird on 03/06/2009 08:23:45


A tracking and dmg buff to blasters is a great idea.

Increasing the CPU on the mega so it can fit a tank that is worth using at the ranges blaster ships are forced to is a good idea as well.


Galan Undris
Posted - 2009.06.03 09:34:00 - [332]
 

Stop doing falloff numbers with linear chance to hit and no hit-tables. It's inflating dps of autos by a good 20-40% from 1x falloff and up, that's not insignificant by any measure. If you want straight dps comparisons, use this:

Optimal + x [falloff] - % of paper DPS
0.0x - 102%
0.5x - 79% (hit chance still pretty high (85%), but a lot of excellent hits are gone from the table)
1.0x - 40% (hit chance is about 50%, but hits are mostly normal or scratching)
1.5x - 15% (hit chance is about 21%, but all hits are pretty much scratching)
2.0x - 6% (hit chance is about 7%, wreckings are the most significant damage dealer as there are only a few scratching hits left on the table)

Put this into play and Autos never pass lasers at any range, you're 100% reliant on a tracking/EW advantage to win against lasers with autos.

The Djego
Minmatar
Hellequin Inc.
Posted - 2009.06.03 09:43:00 - [333]
 

Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Actually it was tracking boost+(huge)damage boost at same time that made stuff stupid. 5% damage boost+10-15% tracking should be easily doable. Too late now for me to number crunch tho. Thing is: if you want to fix blasters do not touch damage, it screws waaaaay too many things up.


10-15% Tracking helps in gangs or would make the Mega more effective out of Web range(Null vs Cruisers/Frigs), both things that are not realy needet in my opinion. It will not fix the huge issues at extrem close range(under 2km) against moving targets for medium sized Blasterships and large Blastership or the kitting problem against single webed Targes once your MWD fails.

The DPS boost, well how many times can you actualy apply max DPS with a Blastership? Your best call are static RR battles or prople that are webbed by 2-3 Webs allready. With a single web against a Target in Range, the DPS you can actualy put on the target will be fare less that the number EFT gives you. You allready need 30-50% more DPS in EFT(that the tanking number on the other side) to take down resonable active tanks with a gank fitting solo(before your HP Buffer is gone). That made the Mega fare less awsome after QR, since It started to fail to take down the 1k DPS tank fittings(and yes the extra 30-50% DPS are still there in my fitting), since the number of DPS you can put on your target is considerable lower because of the faster movement under webs.

You simply will need a stronger Web or a redone tracking formula that makes fighting at extrem close ranges effective again against a single webed target.

Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Also on the ACs. 5% damage across the line, slight faloff boost and now... ze tempest:
why not change its bonuses towards damage. 10% damage bonus/level (instead of 5% rof 5% damage) and add another 5/7,5/10% faloff/lvl bonus. Up drone bay to 100-125 at the same time. Effect? Tempest still wont be the best damage dealing platform but: you get more-less same DPS from ACs (loses rof but gains 50% damage at lvl5 and another 5% from AC buff) and at the same time gets huge faloff + some more all round damage from drones.

Result? Better AC boat with 2 spare hislots (for neuts/nosf warfare), better sniper boat (both range boost from faloff and higher alpha from damage instead of ROF).

Just a late night idea tho + i've never flown a pest ;p So i might be totally missing it. What ya think?


I had a simlar one for the pest, 10% large ak damage per level and 10% Falloff + 100/150 Dronebay(instead of the 75/75 that it has now, most imported in my opinin are the spares for "flexiblity" like ECM Drones). With a bit more base lock range it will also be a fare better Sniper after this. If Artis are back in line, the +50% Damage could make a very awsome Alpha again.

Basicly unnerf T1/Faction Amno(same basedamage like Hybrid Charges/Crystals), increase Falloff on larger tier Guns(simlar to Blasters) and mayby change the falloff a bit that you can get 10-20% more damage at Optimal+1xFalloff(50-60% not like the 38% you have there now) what is more important than the Damage at optimal here most of the time for AKs(this might make a reduction on large blaster falloff nessesary).


Mohenna
Caldari
Knights of the Dark
Posted - 2009.06.03 09:48:00 - [334]
 

Originally by: Mr Ignitious
Originally by: Mohenna
The ONLY problem with lasers is that all T2 ammo sucks, but scorch and null are ok.
Scorch is particularly good NOT for stats, but for the purpose of lasers: as midrange weapons, using longrange ammo on a shortrange weapon works particularly well.
The solution is simple. Short range ammo should also be good. Combine it with blasters, that are intended for short range, and you get the same level of synergy for other t2 weapons.


I agree with the T2 ammo component, I mean ( I forget which close range ammo it is for, beams or pulse) but a shield hp reduction on an amarr ship... buhahah. What I'm thinking though is perhaps a structure HP reduction for void and probably a dps increase for the ammo. It's a significant penalty but not crippling.

I don't care about the exact penalty, it has to be significant but not break the weapon. Bring the short range t2 ammo on the same level of synergy that pulse+scorch have, and you get what the full thread is asking for: blasters that track at short range, autocannons with more falloff, and so on.

Everybody who says he's considering t2 ammo a separate problem, and at the same time whines about scorch and compares t1 ammo weapons with it, is at the very least being a hypocrite.

isdisco3
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2009.06.03 09:59:00 - [335]
 

Originally by: Galan Undris
Stop doing falloff numbers with linear chance to hit and no hit-tables. It's inflating dps of autos by a good 20-40% from 1x falloff and up, that's not insignificant by any measure. If you want straight dps comparisons, use this:

Optimal + x [falloff] - % of paper DPS
0.0x - 102%
0.5x - 79% (hit chance still pretty high (85%), but a lot of excellent hits are gone from the table)
1.0x - 40% (hit chance is about 50%, but hits are mostly normal or scratching)
1.5x - 15% (hit chance is about 21%, but all hits are pretty much scratching)
2.0x - 6% (hit chance is about 7%, wreckings are the most significant damage dealer as there are only a few scratching hits left on the table)

Put this into play and Autos never pass lasers at any range, you're 100% reliant on a tracking/EW advantage to win against lasers with autos.


I wasn't aware of that, will re-make graph. Thanks for the infos.

Nuts Nougat
SniggWaffe
FREE KARTTOON NOW
Posted - 2009.06.03 10:21:00 - [336]
 

Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 03/06/2009 00:46:33
Actually it was tracking boost+(huge)damage boost at same time that made stuff stupid. 5% damage boost+10-15% tracking should be easily doable. Too late now for me to number crunch tho. Thing is: if you want to fix blasters do not touch damage, it screws waaaaay too many things up.

Also on the ACs. 5% damage across the line, slight faloff boost and now... ze tempest:
why not change its bonuses towards damage. 10% damage bonus/level (instead of 5% rof 5% damage) and add another 5/7,5/10% faloff/lvl bonus. Up drone bay to 100-125 at the same time. Effect? Tempest still wont be the best damage dealing platform but: you get more-less same DPS from ACs (loses rof but gains 50% damage at lvl5 and another 5% from AC buff) and at the same time gets huge faloff + some more all round damage from drones.

Result? Better AC boat with 2 spare hislots (for neuts/nosf warfare), better sniper boat (both range boost from faloff and higher alpha from damage instead of ROF).

Just a late night idea tho + i've never flown a pest ;p So i might be totally missing it. What ya think?

EDIT:
actually i think it wouldnt need larger drone bay after all those changes. current pest is 670gun dps (rf emp) 3+20range. After changes it would be around 670dps but at 3+30 range and 3+45 on barrage. Hmmmm.... barrage hitting up to 80km? ;p O well just an idea.


This, except put in optimal instead of falloff bonus. Make it a long range arty platform. Apoc, raven, mega all shoot out to 200km, should the tempest which is also a tier2 bs be different?

1600 RT
Posted - 2009.06.03 11:26:00 - [337]
 

Originally by: Nuts Nougat
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 03/06/2009 00:46:33
Actually it was tracking boost+(huge)damage boost at same time that made stuff stupid. 5% damage boost+10-15% tracking should be easily doable. Too late now for me to number crunch tho. Thing is: if you want to fix blasters do not touch damage, it screws waaaaay too many things up.

Also on the ACs. 5% damage across the line, slight faloff boost and now... ze tempest:
why not change its bonuses towards damage. 10% damage bonus/level (instead of 5% rof 5% damage) and add another 5/7,5/10% faloff/lvl bonus. Up drone bay to 100-125 at the same time. Effect? Tempest still wont be the best damage dealing platform but: you get more-less same DPS from ACs (loses rof but gains 50% damage at lvl5 and another 5% from AC buff) and at the same time gets huge faloff + some more all round damage from drones.

Result? Better AC boat with 2 spare hislots (for neuts/nosf warfare), better sniper boat (both range boost from faloff and higher alpha from damage instead of ROF).

Just a late night idea tho + i've never flown a pest ;p So i might be totally missing it. What ya think?

EDIT:
actually i think it wouldnt need larger drone bay after all those changes. current pest is 670gun dps (rf emp) 3+20range. After changes it would be around 670dps but at 3+30 range and 3+45 on barrage. Hmmmm.... barrage hitting up to 80km? ;p O well just an idea.


This, except put in optimal instead of falloff bonus. Make it a long range arty platform. Apoc, raven, mega all shoot out to 200km, should the tempest which is also a tier2 bs be different?


1. a optimal bonus do nothing for AC
2. its not fun when all the ships have the same bonus

bubbly bird
Posted - 2009.06.03 11:58:00 - [338]
 

Edited by: bubbly bird on 03/06/2009 11:58:03


The fact is that when one ship (tach II apoc) can be sniper fitted so its optimal is virtually at max range and its dps is also way above ALL other snipers as well as having one of the best base tracking figures on its turrets to go with that DPS and range advantage says clearly things are out of balance.

5pinDizzy
Amarr
Pillow Fighters Inc
Posted - 2009.06.03 12:03:00 - [339]
 

Originally by: CCP Mitnal


I would be happy with a troll free discussion culminating in a round up of the issues rather than a lock Very Happy


You mean like the "consensus" you got from the "Balancing - Identifying problems" thread where the majority of the stuff brought from popular opinion got ignored and the thread got buried?

Seishi Maru
doMAL S.A.
Posted - 2009.06.03 12:23:00 - [340]
 

Originally by: Nuts Nougat
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 03/06/2009 00:46:33
Actually it was tracking boost+(huge)damage boost at same time that made stuff stupid. 5% damage boost+10-15% tracking should be easily doable. Too late now for me to number crunch tho. Thing is: if you want to fix blasters do not touch damage, it screws waaaaay too many things up.

Also on the ACs. 5% damage across the line, slight faloff boost and now... ze tempest:
why not change its bonuses towards damage. 10% damage bonus/level (instead of 5% rof 5% damage) and add another 5/7,5/10% faloff/lvl bonus. Up drone bay to 100-125 at the same time. Effect? Tempest still wont be the best damage dealing platform but: you get more-less same DPS from ACs (loses rof but gains 50% damage at lvl5 and another 5% from AC buff) and at the same time gets huge faloff + some more all round damage from drones.

Result? Better AC boat with 2 spare hislots (for neuts/nosf warfare), better sniper boat (both range boost from faloff and higher alpha from damage instead of ROF).

Just a late night idea tho + i've never flown a pest ;p So i might be totally missing it. What ya think?

EDIT:
actually i think it wouldnt need larger drone bay after all those changes. current pest is 670gun dps (rf emp) 3+20range. After changes it would be around 670dps but at 3+30 range and 3+45 on barrage. Hmmmm.... barrage hitting up to 80km? ;p O well just an idea.


This, except put in optimal instead of falloff bonus. Make it a long range arty platform. Apoc, raven, mega all shoot out to 200km, should the tempest which is also a tier2 bs be different?


because Falloff can fill that gap and help AC. Specially if you also make range mods affect faloff as well as range. Imagine with THAT change and a 10% flaoff per level. Tempest arties woudl be 152 Km Optimal and 102 km falloff! That woudl be excelent but still balanced. They would have good range coverage, .. even logner than a megatron... but with a more modest damage curve.

Galan Undris
Posted - 2009.06.03 12:40:00 - [341]
 

Originally by: Seishi Maru
because Falloff can fill that gap and help AC. Specially if you also make range mods affect faloff as well as range.

Good on paper, but it doesn't hit the issue.

The problem is pulses having a very large engagement envelope and still pump out 2nd highest "paper"-dps. Extending ACs falloff will not balance them against pulses unless it pushes decent dps beyond pulse's engagement range, but it will make a much bigger impact on AC vs Blaster combat. That's not what we want as Blasters vs ACs isn't far off where they should be, and a significant falloff boost would skew it a lot in favor of ACs.

If pulses are to keep their big engagement envelope, then the other short range weapons need to be buffed inside their current roles (both shorter range). Either that, or pulses need to have either their dps or envelope reduced (tracking or optimal).

Beverly Sparks
Posted - 2009.06.03 13:04:00 - [342]
 

Originally by: 5pinDizzy
Originally by: CCP Mitnal


I would be happy with a troll free discussion culminating in a round up of the issues rather than a lock Very Happy


You mean like the "consensus" you got from the "Balancing - Identifying problems" thread where the majority of the stuff brought from popular opinion got ignored and the thread got buried?



Amen, Brother!

Nuts Nougat
SniggWaffe
FREE KARTTOON NOW
Posted - 2009.06.03 13:45:00 - [343]
 

Edited by: Nuts Nougat on 03/06/2009 13:55:48
Originally by: Seishi Maru
because Falloff can fill that gap and help AC. Specially if you also make range mods affect faloff as well as range. Imagine with THAT change and a 10% flaoff per level. Tempest arties woudl be 152 Km Optimal and 102 km falloff! That woudl be excelent but still balanced. They would have good range coverage, .. even logner than a megatron... but with a more modest damage curve.
Falloff can never fill that gap... Either way, arty dps is crappy enough, no need to make it even crappier by trying to shoot people in falloff. Even with 100km falloff by the time you're at 50km you're already losing about 30%? damage... the already crappy 300dps becomes 200dps... Might as well bring an eagle then, shoots out to 200km at about same dps, burns out of the bubble faster, aligns out faster.

Yes, falloff would give you the possibility of engaging at more than 150km, but if I wanted to be actually more useful than a lolhac I'd have to be <160km anyway...

Make maelstrom a dedicated AC boat. People say active tank is **** anyway, lose the booster bonus, give it falloff bonus. Or give optimal bonus to the mael and falloff bonus to the tempest... Give minmatar one ship that can shoot out to 200km at arty dps, it's bad enough already. Falloff just makes it horribad.

Also as a fun fact: Tempest/mael fitted with 6 optimal modules (3 rigs, 3 TE/TC) does the exact same dps with arty as a tempest/mael fitted with 3 falloff and 3 optimal modules at 200km. Though it's effective range is a bit longer, by the time falloff setup starts to show advantage both setups are at under 150dps though. Might as well bring my apoc then, with level 3 skills it does better, and with higher tracking...

Now don't get me wrong, i think ACs need fixing too, but just a falloff bonus like this will never be enough, and won't help artillery either. Falloff is just horrible like that. You can't just buff raw dps either, because then it'll outdamage everything at point blank and people will whine again.

Best idea would be increase base AC falloff to 40km (lose some tracking to prevent them raping frigs at 100km... Though i guess if a pulse apoc can do it, why not a tempest? :D) and base artillery falloff to 80km though. This would make the % falloff per level bonus worthwhile and make ACs interesting to use. With rigs ACs would be able to outrange scorch megapulse on a geddon/abaddon, albeit at half the dps they put out. And arty would shoot out to 200+km at 200dps, which is still less than any other race, but at least you're not getting outperformed by a bloody hac.

As for the amount of bonus, keep 10% on the vargur, leave tempest as it is. That way the vargur will have 112km with barrage (comparable to pulsepoc but crap dps, more tracking, and can still scratch your paint at 200km), tempest at 75km, both without falloff rigs. DPS stays crap, but at least you have the range the use your "superior minmatar speed" to stay out of your enemies effective range.

But, those are the falloff numbers currently on siege projectiles, so I guess that's not happening either :P

Seishi Maru
doMAL S.A.
Posted - 2009.06.03 13:59:00 - [344]
 

Originally by: Nuts Nougat
Edited by: Nuts Nougat on 03/06/2009 13:55:48
Originally by: Seishi Maru
because Falloff can fill that gap and help AC. Specially if you also make range mods affect faloff as well as range. Imagine with THAT change and a 10% flaoff per level. Tempest arties woudl be 152 Km Optimal and 102 km falloff! That woudl be excelent but still balanced. They would have good range coverage, .. even logner than a megatron... but with a more modest damage curve.
Falloff can never fill that gap... Either way, arty dps is crappy enough, no need to make it even crappier by trying to shoot people in falloff. Even with 100km falloff by the time you're at 50km you're already losing about 30%? damage... the already crappy 300dps becomes 200dps... Might as well bring an eagle then, shoots out to 200km at about same dps, burns out of the bubble faster, aligns out faster.

Yes, falloff would give you the possibility of engaging at more than 150km, but if I wanted to be actually more useful than a lolhac I'd have to be <160km anyway...

Make maelstrom a dedicated AC boat. People say active tank is **** anyway, lose the booster bonus, give it falloff bonus. Or give optimal bonus to the mael and falloff bonus to the tempest... Give minmatar one ship that can shoot out to 200km at arty dps, it's bad enough already. Falloff just makes it horribad.

Also as a fun fact: Tempest/mael fitted with 6 optimal modules (3 rigs, 3 TE/TC) does the exact same dps with arty as a tempest/mael fitted with 3 falloff and 3 optimal modules at 200km. Though it's effective range is a bit longer, by the time falloff setup starts to show advantage both setups are at under 150dps though. Might as well bring my apoc then, with level 3 skills it does better, and with higher tracking...

Now don't get me wrong, i think ACs need fixing too, but just a falloff bonus like this will never be enough, and won't help artillery either. Falloff is just horrible like that. You can't just buff raw dps either, because then it'll outdamage everything at point blank and people will whine again.

Best idea would be increase base AC falloff to 40km (lose some tracking to prevent them raping frigs at 100km... Though i guess if a pulse apoc can do it, why not a tempest? :D) and base artillery falloff to 80km though. This would make the % falloff per level bonus worthwhile and make ACs interesting to use. With rigs ACs would be able to outrange scorch megapulse on a geddon/abaddon, albeit at half the dps they put out. And arty would shoot out to 200+km at 200dps, which is still less than any other race, but at least you're not getting outperformed by a bloody hac.

As for the amount of bonus, keep 10% on the vargur, leave tempest as it is. That way the vargur will have 112km with barrage (comparable to pulsepoc but crap dps, more tracking, and can still scratch your paint at 200km), tempest at 75km, both without falloff rigs. DPS stays crap, but at least you have the range the use your "superior minmatar speed" to stay out of your enemies effective range.

But, those are the falloff numbers currently on siege projectiles, so I guess that's not happening either :P


run the nubmer before throwing things off. A tempest liek that at 170 km would have MORE damage than a megatron at same range. And at 220 km would be so far ahead of the magatrron that woudl not even be funny.

Seishi Maru
doMAL S.A.
Posted - 2009.06.03 14:17:00 - [345]
 

Originally by: Galan Undris
Originally by: Seishi Maru
because Falloff can fill that gap and help AC. Specially if you also make range mods affect faloff as well as range.

Good on paper, but it doesn't hit the issue.

The problem is pulses having a very large engagement envelope and still pump out 2nd highest "paper"-dps. Extending ACs falloff will not balance them against pulses unless it pushes decent dps beyond pulse's engagement range, but it will make a much bigger impact on AC vs Blaster combat. That's not what we want as Blasters vs ACs isn't far off where they should be, and a significant falloff boost would skew it a lot in favor of ACs.

If pulses are to keep their big engagement envelope, then the other short range weapons need to be buffed inside their current roles (both shorter range). Either that, or pulses need to have either their dps or envelope reduced (tracking or optimal).


that can be corrected by restorign one of the origianl features of ulse lasers. LOW tracking. Remove the old boost of 25% to pulse tracking. Done .. the lasers while havign a wider envelope of engagement will be very bad under 10 km

Nuts Nougat
SniggWaffe
FREE KARTTOON NOW
Posted - 2009.06.03 14:22:00 - [346]
 

Edited by: Nuts Nougat on 03/06/2009 14:21:49
Originally by: Seishi Maru


run the nubmer before throwing things off. A tempest liek that at 170 km would have MORE damage than a megatron at same range. And at 220 km would be so far ahead of the magatrron that woudl not even be funny.


And still well behind the apoc. I think that tells a lot tbh...

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2009.06.03 14:55:00 - [347]
 

Originally by: Nuts Nougat

Best idea would be increase base AC falloff to 40km (lose some tracking to prevent them raping frigs at 100km...


50km with skills, 75km with barrage? Sorry mate but thats not "outdamaging" apoc. Thats up to 120-140km frig killer = using ACs at sniping range. Not gonna happen. And thats even without thinking about "faloff bonus". Thats also around 300dps at 78km (barrage) without mounting any modules (except for 3 gyrostabs). Even apoc cant reach that far without tracking boosts.

Its just another dream world, same as "70% blaster damage boost". Well i even think that in my idea 10%/lvl was too much (especially after looking @ 45km faloff on barrage).

But i guess problem is not guns but ship itself when we look at pest. Some want it to be arti boat, others ac boat. I guess CCP should decide what role tempest does fit. I always saw it as fast AC/cap warfare boat (due to 2 free hislots), others as typical cheap arti boat (dunno why tho, iirc mael is better arti boat anyways). Not saying a word about phoon coz its quite decent ship.

Beverly Sparks
Posted - 2009.06.03 17:46:00 - [348]
 

Originally by: Deva Blackfire


50km with skills, 75km with barrage? Sorry mate but thats not "outdamaging" apoc. Thats up to 120-140km frig killer = using ACs at sniping range. Not gonna happen. And thats even without thinking about "faloff bonus". Thats also around 300dps at 78km (barrage) without mounting any modules (except for 3 gyrostabs). Even apoc cant reach that far without tracking boosts.


?????? That is totally on par with the weapon characteristics, and would give it all the same bonuses as Pulse lasers currently enjoy on an Apoc. So you must be saying that the Apoc with Pulses is OP.

And come on now, a frigate at 140km (opt + 2 x Falloff) away from a bunch of BS's is not going to be saying.. "Oh Noes, I am in AC range."

Some of your arguments are pretty freaking thin dude.

Give me a break.

FU22
The 8th Order
Posted - 2009.06.03 18:04:00 - [349]
 

Edited by: FU22 on 03/06/2009 18:04:09
Warning Mega Post:

Ok imo the weapons need to work as the following:
Lasers:
-Most range (Which it is now)
-Most cap requirement (which it is now)
-Good damage
-Average tracking

Blasters:
-Least range
-About quarter/half cap requirement as lasers
-Insane damage (like it is now)
-A bit extra tracking to lasers but NO MORE

Missles:
-basically exactly how they are now

Projectiles:
-Less range then lasers but a bit more then blasters
-No cap requirement except t2 ammo
-Less damage then lasers/blasters but a bit extra then missles
-Good tracking

The damage type they deal should be the same as it is now obviously. That too me looks pretty balanced...

Missles have the least because of being able to switch out for whatever damage type they want and basically having pretty good range already.

I do think that the projectiles need a bit of love to sort them out, i'm not really sure whats wrong with them but as i am aware they need a bit of love ugh

Imo leave blasters and lasers alone, they are fine. Stop ur whining that your megathron can't kill frigates orbiting at 500m, lasers can't do it either Neutral

As a side note, damage increase on blasters? are you having a laugh? 99% of the time fights end up at point blank range, thus blasters at full damage, more then that will turn the weapons into even more of a **** up.

Ok I think i'm done Wink

EDIT: post bugged a bit and buggered up paragraphs

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2009.06.03 18:09:00 - [350]
 

Originally by: Beverly Sparks
Originally by: Deva Blackfire


50km with skills, 75km with barrage? Sorry mate but thats not "outdamaging" apoc. Thats up to 120-140km frig killer = using ACs at sniping range. Not gonna happen. And thats even without thinking about "faloff bonus". Thats also around 300dps at 78km (barrage) without mounting any modules (except for 3 gyrostabs). Even apoc cant reach that far without tracking boosts.


?????? That is totally on par with the weapon characteristics, and would give it all the same bonuses as Pulse lasers currently enjoy on an Apoc. So you must be saying that the Apoc with Pulses is OP.



RAGERAGERAGE

Now read up and you will see that the proposed idea is AFTER boosting ACs BASE faloff to 40km (so 2x boost) and then adding ANOTHER 1,5x faloff bonus to ship. This means the range gets increased 3x before we even include skills and barrage. 60km faloff on EMP?

Yes apoc has that range on guns. It pays with decent cap use + worse tracking + needs to use lows to get that far. FYI apoc range is 62+10 maxskill (no TEs).

TBH if ya want to do this, sure go for it. Just kill tracking to level of pulse lasers. Either long range weapon with poor tracking or short-mid with good.

And sitting 80km from it in frig? I would be worried if it was bomber or EAS.

bubbly bird
Posted - 2009.06.03 18:47:00 - [351]
 

Originally by: FU22

Warning Mega Post:

Ok imo the weapons need to work as the following:
Lasers:
-Most range (Which it is now)
-Most cap requirement (which it is now)
-Good damage
-Average tracking


In other words the 2 most important attributes of range and damage they get:

The best by far in range.
And apart from a tiny window at 4-6km (that they still do very very high dmg) they also do the highest dps from like 6-55km?.

But the 2 least important cap (cos of injectors) and tracking (cos of webs) they have very small down sides.

Originally by: FU22
Blasters:
-Least range
-About quarter/half cap requirement as lasers
-Insane damage (like it is now)
-A bit extra tracking to lasers but NO MORE


1. How do you consider blasters to have insane dmg?, i think the only insane thing here is you if you do.
2. They need a LOT more tracking than lasers.

Originally by: FU22
Projectiles:
-Less range then lasers but a bit more then blasters
-No cap requirement except t2 ammo
-Less damage then lasers/blasters but a bit extra then missles
-Good tracking


So less range than lasers AND less dmg?.....



Let me guess you fly amarr?.............LaughingLaughing



Nostredeus Morphius
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2009.06.03 18:51:00 - [352]
 

Lets be honest here, most people are trying to push forward their own agenda and not many people are actually considering balance here. This really is becoming an opportunity for lots of people to try and make their race the best instead of an opportunity for all for all of us to come to a final decision on what should happen.

If we can come to a consensus(or a general yeah this seems good lets try it out, sure I have misgivings about some points but I will give it a go on the test server) the CCP may actually whack it into the next test server build and we can see what works and what doesn't.

So lets look at what the general consensus is in this thread (not including the "lol lets give ac's optimal" and "lol lets give blasters the ability to mash up frigs at 20km" posts)

From what I can tell anyone who flies Amarr often is generally happy with it, and a lot of people who seem to not fly Amarr are also saying it's fine but it wouldn't hurt giving it a 5%-7.5% tracking decrease. (some people are crying that they need a massive nerf - see bottom of post)



Just looking through the thread again it seems that most Blaster pilots are using this opportunity to voice concerns about the tracking of Blasters due to the web nerfs, and otehrs are using this opportunity to make their mega's into DDD wielding titans and are suggesting large damage boosts. Lets assume the second group of people are brain damaged or have only been playing a month and want to know why their mega doesn't poon Jita.

In which case the general consensus is to increase tracking a bit, the average number seems to be 7.5%-10% to compensate for the web nerf.


On to the third gunnery system; Auto canons, it seems as if most people are pushing for either an optimal increase, a falloff increase, a damage increase or multiples of the three. This weapon system is one I know a lot about as it is the one I have used most since starting the game a long time ago, so I feel qualified to give a suitable summary.

Auto cannons have always been about dictating range, coming in close when you want to go under the tracking of lasers and going out to a distance when you want to avoid the damage of blasters. This used to be great (it was one of the reasons they were the most used weapon in PvP) but then the nano nerf came in and with it came the speed nerf that Minmatar effectively took, this meant that it was harder to dictate ranges and therefore difficult to take advantage of auto cannons.

So how can we fix this? Well the easiest solution is to give minny the ability to nano but to be fair I believe that not only has that ship sailed but if it came back to port you would make minny lol op.

Therefore the question becomes how do we fix this without giving minny the ability to nano?

You need to make it so that Auto cannons can dictate range sooner and apply the damage faster so that instead of travelling at a faster speed dictating range they travel at a slower speed and can still dictate range.

Of course a slower speed means they will be able to dictate range for less time and should therefore put down more damage than they used to over that period of time.

(Smaller amount of time + larger damage output) = (larger amount of time + smaller damage output)

We also have to make sure that Auto Cannons don't become overpowered when placed on heavily tanking ships with their increased damage (although heavily tanking armour ships are slow and can't dictate range well), therefore we need to keep the damage increase mild.

Giving Auto Cannons a falloff and damage bonus will help them to dictate range again as well as apply the same amount of damage as they used to over the decreased period of time.

Fall off buffs need to be large to have any noticeable effect and therefore should be in the region of 20% to 25% increased fall off.

Damage buffs are immediate generally but in the case of Auto cannons in fall off are less effective, therefore a damage increase of 10% should do.

Nostredeus Morphius
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2009.06.03 18:51:00 - [353]
 

Sorry for having to use two posts but if I don't explain everything clearly enough some slightly less gifted people than most of you will cry about it.

The reason why I didn't suggest an optimal range buff is it doesn't solve the problem, it doesn't allow auto's to dictate range it simply increases their damage over their previous range, fall off however limits the impact of a damage buff whilst also allowing the dictation of range.


To summarise

Lasers - 5% to 7.5% trackign decrease (general consensus)

Blasters - 7.5% to 10% tracking increase (general consensus)

Auto cannons - 20% to 25% fall off increase 10% damage increase (general consensus with some personal opinion)

Thanks for reading, I may post again concerning long ranged weapons more specifically the artillerys.

bubbly bird
Posted - 2009.06.03 19:00:00 - [354]
 

Edited by: bubbly bird on 03/06/2009 19:03:53

Originally by: Nostredeus Morphius



To summarise

Lasers - 5% to 7.5% trackign decrease (general consensus)


Worthless as in gang combat webs make tracking unimportant.

Originally by: Nostredeus Morphius
Blasters - 7.5% to 10% tracking increase (general consensus)


Also pretty worthless for the same reason as the laser tracking nerf would be, unless you want to make blasters into solo ships again and then tracking needs to be increased by a crap tonne more than 10%.


Originally by: Nostredeus Morphius
Auto cannons - 20% to 25% fall off increase 10% damage increase (general consensus with some personal opinion)


Mayber but i have not done the math.




Electric Universe
The Choir
Posted - 2009.06.03 19:09:00 - [355]
 

Edited by: Electric Universe on 03/06/2009 19:15:06
I'm in for a 7.5% tracking boost to Large Blasters AS LONG it doesn't goes into easy mode for frigs and cruiser instakilling.

Even if they boost the tracking by 7.5%, you still have to work hard to kill frigs and cruisers before i accept that boost. It should not be easy to do that now anyways.

We have to test that out on Sisi to see how it is.

I already know how easy it can be to kill cruisers pretty easily and the same with frigs (to some points) if your a very experienced Blaster pilot.

If a 7.5% tracking boost is easily killing frigs and cruisers, then i will go totally against it again then. Because the web nerf was to prevent Large Blasters for example to kill frigs and cruisers so easily, like they did before the web nerf.

Even if 0.1% tracking boost would go towards frigs and cruiser instakilling, then i would still be very very against it.

But don't touch the DPS on the Blasters EVER, because it's good enough by a good margin.

And don't touch the range on Blasters to. Blasters is the shortest range weapons in EVE.
Originally by: bubbly bird
Edited by: bubbly bird on 03/06/2009 19:03:53

Originally by: Nostredeus Morphius


To summarise

Lasers - 5% to 7.5% trackign decrease (general consensus)


Worthless as in gang combat webs make tracking unimportant.

I just have to LOL hard to that.

Oh wow, so how is a tracking boost to Blasters important then?. Gang combat makes tracking unimportants as you say when the targets gets webbed.

So how will a tracking boost to Blasters help then?.

If a tracking boost to Blasters will help there, then for sure a tracking nerf to Lasers will also help in that situationWink.

Rhadamantine
Game Community
Posted - 2009.06.03 19:14:00 - [356]
 

Just out of curiosity, which weapon system do you use Electric Universe?
I've tried to look you up, but have not found any information.

So far I actually like the route this thread has taken, it's far more constructive than most.

bubbly bird
Posted - 2009.06.03 19:15:00 - [357]
 

Edited by: bubbly bird on 03/06/2009 19:16:19
Originally by: Electric Universe

I just have to LOL hard to that.

Oh wow, so how is a tracking boost to Blasters important then?. Gang combat makes tracking unimportants as you say when the targets gets webbed.

So how will a tracking boost to Blasters help then?.

If a tracking boost to Blasters will help there, then for sure a tracking nerf to Lasers will also helpWink.


You may have loled but you still edited out the part that explained it....Wink

Maybe if you had left the bit you just deliberatly edited out you would understand.......Rolling EyesLaughing

Electric Universe
The Choir
Posted - 2009.06.03 19:19:00 - [358]
 

Edited by: Electric Universe on 03/06/2009 19:19:27
Originally by: Rhadamantine
Just out of curiosity, which weapon system do you use Electric Universe?
I've tried to look you up, but have not found any information.

So far I actually like the route this thread has taken, it's far more constructive than most.

So i need to have a killboard stat to be able to have a brain to understand how Blasters works?.

I'm not flaming you at all here now, i'm just telling you that i don't need to have kills posted on a killboard JUST to know how Blasters works and how good they are etc etc.

Just to tell you how it is. I'm a smart person who can use my brain to lots of thingsWink.

bubbly bird
Posted - 2009.06.03 19:20:00 - [359]
 



Oh and i just gave a MEGA a 30% boost in tracking for its blasters (who needs adjustments on sissi when you can just fit a tracking comp + tracking script) and it still cannot hit a WEBBED assault ship under 3km.

Electric Universe
The Choir
Posted - 2009.06.03 19:21:00 - [360]
 

Edited by: Electric Universe on 03/06/2009 19:26:25
Originally by: bubbly bird
Edited by: bubbly bird on 03/06/2009 19:16:19
Originally by: Electric Universe

I just have to LOL hard to that.

Oh wow, so how is a tracking boost to Blasters important then?. Gang combat makes tracking unimportants as you say when the targets gets webbed.

So how will a tracking boost to Blasters help then?.

If a tracking boost to Blasters will help there, then for sure a tracking nerf to Lasers will also helpWink.


You may have loled but you still edited out the part that explained it....Wink

Maybe if you had left the bit you just deliberatly edited out you would understand.......Rolling EyesLaughing

Still, dreaming for a tracking boost more than 10% max is never going to happen. You know exactly what will happen if Blasters gets more than 10% tracking boost.

Please do not flame. Comment removed. Zymurgist

But like i said, i'm in for a 7.5% tracking boost as long it doesn't make it into easy mode when it's about killing frigs and cruisers again.
Originally by: bubbly bird


Oh and i just gave a MEGA a 30% boost in tracking for its blasters (who needs adjustments on sissi when you can just fit a tracking comp + tracking script) and it still cannot hit a WEBBED assault ship under 3km.

Uhm, LOL, your doing something very wrong then.

You still have to work really hard to be able to kill a frig with Large Blasters. It's very possible to kill a frig in a BS with Large Blasters ONLy if your smart enough.

RING RING, the bell is ringing. The web nerf was to prevent ships with Large Blasters or other ships with Large guns to kill frigs and eventually cruisers easily.

And now your going omg omg i can't kill a frig easily in a BS with Large Blasters. OMG GIVE THE BLASTERS A BOOST.

LOLLaughing.


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