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Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2009.06.01 18:17:00 - [271]
 

Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 01/06/2009 18:17:38
Originally by: Beverly Sparks

Hardeners are a lot more commonly used in RR fleets, then they are in fleet fits. Since Cap is usually less of a problem, due to everyone having injectors. And usually since RR gangs are built on defense, gank will be sacrificed to build larger resistances, thus making the RR more effective.


Sorry but no. Unless its domi. Most RR ships (especially megas and armas which make majority of rr fleets) dont have enough CPU to put active hardeners. thats why people opt for faction EANMs or even ANPs. And yeh its based on our RR fleets which we use hmm... the most often of all larger alliances in game?

Originally by: Malena Panic
Originally by: Mes Ren
EM is the most heavily tanked resists in the game.


In practice this is almost never the case. Most of the time EM is the very best damage type to use in PvP.


Depends on ship tbh. On t1 RR gangs (battleships etc) EM is usually highest resist. When we go into t2 ships world its one of lowest resists (more-less on par with explo).

bubbly bird
Posted - 2009.06.01 18:42:00 - [272]
 

Originally by: Deva Blackfire


Sorry but no. Unless its domi. Most RR ships (especially megas and armas which make majority of rr fleets) dont have enough CPU to put active hardeners. thats why people opt for faction EANMs or even ANPs. And yeh its based on our RR fleets which we use hmm... the most often of all larger alliances in game?



RR domis and phoons can fit active hardeners, while the only BS that can fully AND eanm/plate/dcu and fit full mwd/tackle/dmg mods and a injector is the abaddon.

Just how perfect can one ship be ffs?.

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2009.06.01 19:21:00 - [273]
 

Perfect? Tro to fit rr on it = you lose guns. Try to fire and use rep = your cap vanishes. Maybe in your dream world its perfect but when people actually use it its not that shiny.

bubbly bird
Posted - 2009.06.01 19:41:00 - [274]
 

Edited by: bubbly bird on 01/06/2009 19:44:09

Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Perfect? Tro to fit rr on it = you lose guns.


And you think thats a big loss considering all the other standard RR ships use only 7 high slots for dmg?.

3 x HS RR geddon = 855 turret dps.

3 x HS abaddon = 802 turret dps.

So -53 RAW turret DPS in exchange for 34000+ more ehp and fastansitc resistance coverage.

Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Try to fire and use rep = your cap vanishes.


All RR BS are cap dependant and use injectors and a abaddon pilot with good skills will run out of 800 charges before he runs out of cap even with his guns + RR running constantly.

At least they do not need to be at 5km from each target like the mega so no choice between a reduction in dps or a mwd burn/RR/turret fire....now thats high cap usage.


Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Maybe in your dream world its perfect but when people actually use it its not that shiny.


Its not a dream as i have used it and i have loved it a lot more than i liked any of the megas or geddons i have flown.

isdisco3
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2009.06.01 20:10:00 - [275]
 

Why are people in favor of just increasing falloff on minmatar weapons?

The problem with autocannons is that they fight in falloff. Increasing their falloff by some marginal amount changes nothing, it gives them a teensy boost to damage at range but the end result will still be maelstroms doing 250-300 dps at 15-20km. How is that balanced?

Beverly Sparks
Posted - 2009.06.01 20:13:00 - [276]
 

I am sorry I mentioned RR gangs. Lets keep this thread focused on weapons though. While the ships that use the weapons are relevant, discussing cap usage while running RRers, and the size of the buffer tank, I think gets a bit outside the scope.

Mainly, the key factor when discussing the individual ships should be fitting since that is part of the stats for the weapon.

Lets keep the discussion on range, DPS, tracking, cap usage (of the weapon, not of a RR set up), Damage type, etc, etc.

Not trying to moderate, but keeping focus will help the Devs understand the different sides of this issue, and not derail them onto issues dealing with who has the best ship for this or that.

And BS ship balancing perhaps should be a new thread all together. Because there certainly is some large disparity in one of the most important ship classes, IMO.

Beverly Sparks
Posted - 2009.06.01 20:22:00 - [277]
 

Originally by: isdisco3
Why are people in favor of just increasing falloff on minmatar weapons?



Because they fly Amarr.

But seriously, increasing falloff has a bit more effect then you might think. Since higher damage ammo does not effect falloff, the larger the falloff the better ammo you can use. Thus producing more of an effect then a simple move up the falloff curve.

I had the idea of trying to make Artillery fallow the falloff curve like AC's do, with the end result being doing say Carbonized lead damage at long range, and then following the falloff curve up to a point where it does EMP damage at close range. I still think it is possible, and it would mean projectilse would not have to change ammo based on range. Just like AC's can hit out at 20km for 50% damage and at 1km for 100%.

Not sure if it will actually work though, hard to compete for damage following the falloff curve at 150km without becoming OP at close range. Although the Devs seem to think tracking takes care of that, just like the Amarr. Fail!

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2009.06.01 21:00:00 - [278]
 

Originally by: bubbly bird

And you think thats a big loss considering all the other standard RR ships use only 7 high slots for dmg?.

3 x HS RR geddon = 855 turret dps.

3 x HS abaddon = 802 turret dps.

So -53 RAW turret DPS in exchange for 34000+ more ehp and fastansitc resistance coverage.



34k ehp and you die before you get even RR help. Mate fly a bit in RR gangs before you try to tell how "awesome" one ship is.

3x sink on aba + 2x eanm + dc = 1 slot for plate left. 1 plate = you die before people can lock you and rr cycles completes.


Quote:

At least they do not need to be at 5km from each target like the mega so no choice between a reduction in dps or a mwd burn/RR/turret fire....now thats high cap usage.



You are both ignorant and lack RR gameplay knowledge. I shown (1-3 pages earlier) link to our KB from typical RR engagement. Megas and geddons/abas deal more-less the same DPS on targets so the "range advantage" means almost nothing ESPECIALLY when you engage another RR gang because they all will be within 5km of each other.

Quote:

Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Maybe in your dream world its perfect but when people actually use it its not that shiny.


Its not a dream as i have used it and i have loved it a lot more than i liked any of the megas or geddons i have flown.


Too bad. Ill take geddon over aba into RR gang anyday. ONLY exception is EHP bait (someone has to decloak first...)

Mes Ren
No Trademark
Posted - 2009.06.01 21:46:00 - [279]
 

Originally by: Malena Panic
Originally by: Mes Ren
EM is the most heavily tanked resists in the game.


In practice this is almost never the case. Most of the time EM is the very best damage type to use in PvP.


I have to disagree. The most common armor tank type is damage soak followed by an omni tank, or a combination thereof. In that instance, EM resists is almost always the highest resist. For shield tanks, you have buffer tank again being the most common -- many people fill the EM hole (or have naturallly high shield EM resist already), brining it on par with some of the other resists -- this in addition to the naturally EM resist that all ships have in addition to the damage control that most ships fit.

Mes Ren
No Trademark
Posted - 2009.06.01 21:52:00 - [280]
 

Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 01/06/2009 18:17:38
Originally by: Beverly Sparks

Hardeners are a lot more commonly used in RR fleets, then they are in fleet fits. Since Cap is usually less of a problem, due to everyone having injectors. And usually since RR gangs are built on defense, gank will be sacrificed to build larger resistances, thus making the RR more effective.


Sorry but no. Unless its domi. Most RR ships (especially megas and armas which make majority of rr fleets) dont have enough CPU to put active hardeners. thats why people opt for faction EANMs or even ANPs. And yeh its based on our RR fleets which we use hmm... the most often of all larger alliances in game?

Originally by: Malena Panic
Originally by: Mes Ren
EM is the most heavily tanked resists in the game.


In practice this is almost never the case. Most of the time EM is the very best damage type to use in PvP.


Depends on ship tbh. On t1 RR gangs (battleships etc) EM is usually highest resist. When we go into t2 ships world its one of lowest resists (more-less on par with explo).


My point was not to say that EM is always the highest resist, buy simply that it is always well tanked comparatively -- specifically because of the common use of buffer and omni tanks. Explosive is generally one of the lowest resists (even for t2) except on amarr ships.

Mes Ren
No Trademark
Posted - 2009.06.01 22:30:00 - [281]
 

Edited by: Mes Ren on 01/06/2009 22:37:49
Originally by: isdisco3
Why are people in favor of just increasing falloff on minmatar weapons?

The problem with autocannons is that they fight in falloff. Increasing their falloff by some marginal amount changes nothing, it gives them a teensy boost to damage at range but the end result will still be maelstroms doing 250-300 dps at 15-20km. How is that balanced?


Because you are talking about BS sized autocannons, and others are thinking about all autocannons. BS sized autocannons MAY need a SLIGHT DPS boost, but ALL other autocannons would achieve the desired result by simply increasing the falloff range. Case and point, hurricanes frequently lead the field on damage dealt on killmails. The nice thing about killmails is that they show the damage that a ship received (meaning after resists were applied). What does this mean to you? -- Because of various factors that don't seem to be taken into account in this discussion, autocannons are still leading the way on the actual damage being dealt. What are some of these factors? -- tracking, damage type, cap use, speed of ship, etc.

So back to the original question -- why only the falloff increase? Because people understand that autocannons are a short range weapon that was designed to do good dps as the result of superior tracking and a low resist damage type. IF you want to do more than 300 dps at 15 - 20km, I STRONGLY suggest you increase your skills and use Barrage.

BTW, I thought you might find this interesting, against AB Cruisers or high speed mwd cruisers, the Malestrom with autocannons is as good as or better than a geddon for raw dps and engagement range within typical disruptor range -- and oh, btw ... has the better damage type, so it doing more actual damage by a good measure. Again, that is the problem with only looking at raw numbers and NOT the big picture. (Incidently, when comparing damage against BS targets, it's not a whole lot less than an amarr ship within disruptor range. That difference is made up for with the better damage type, better speed with ship, no cap use, better tracking (though admittedly makes very little difference when shooting at bs's at anything other than point blank, but still makes up for it in every other situation), and more slots availible for utility. As falloff increase, particularly if they introduced modules that could increase falloff as well, would definately tip the scales for autocannons.)

isdisco3
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2009.06.01 22:46:00 - [282]
 

Edited by: isdisco3 on 01/06/2009 22:51:06
As I said, I see t2 ammunition as an entirely different issue. However, you must remember that with barrage, 800's, and 3 gyro's, the optimal is 6 and the falloff is 30 with a max dps (from turrets) of 700. That means at:

6km - 700
21km - 525 dps
36km - 350 dps
51km - 175

Now, increasing the falloff on the mael (same setup, barrage, etc) by say 10% would give us a falloff of 33km, and numbers such as:

6km - 700
22.5km - 525
39km - 350
55km - 175

compare that to the baddon with scorch which does 800dps from 45, while never having to enter falloff.

You're still going to have an extremely low dps ship, only now it hits from marginally further out. It's still sub-par, and given a choice I'd still wish I'd spec'd amarr 2.5 years ago instead of minmatar.

Now, give the 800's an optimal and falloff of 12.5km, as I've proposed. Here's what you get, with barrage:

optimal of 12.5, falloff of 18.75

12.5km - 700 dps
31.25km - 525 dps
50km - 350 dps
68.75km - 175 dps

Now obviously, if we change how AC's work we'd have to change how the t2 ammunition works.

Mes Ren
No Trademark
Posted - 2009.06.02 00:48:00 - [283]
 

Edited by: Mes Ren on 02/06/2009 00:49:35
Originally by: isdisco3
Stuff.


Again, you aren't factoring everything in. First, going to scorch lowers the tracking of lasers (I'll get back to this in a min), and the malestrom has a bigger drone bay and bandwidth than the abbadon. They are really different ships. Even still, if you are talking about small bs gang vs small bs gang, the engagement will be taking place within 24km (otherwise the target will simply warp away). Scorch compared to Barrage with drone dps, you are talking about 940 raw dps for the abbadon and 800 for the maelstrom @24km (the shorter the range, the more dps the maelstrom does). Once you figure resists, you are talk about 280 - 300 dps from the abaddon and about 400 dps for the maelstrom -- damn, I bet that ruins your arguments. If we switch to Amarr Navy Multi's, the numbers get worse for the abbadon so we'll move range to the abbadon optimal. Now we have 1128dps vs 908 (still using barrage), after resists we are looking at 340 - 360 dps for the abbadon and about 450 for the Maelstrom. Lets switch to RF EMP. Looks like we drop to 874 dps @15km, only goes up from there ... so after resists, the maelstrom does more dps in EVERY scenerio. Lets now say they have cruisers in the fight as well .... well the autocannons perform better at hitting crusiers in almost every situation due to tracking.

So I just showed how the maelstrom is doing more damage than the abbadon, why would you want a falloff increase? -- Well, before the speed patch, the weapon systems were fairly balanced (except for missles). The main thing that changed to trhow everything out of wack was speed. The fact of the matter is that lasers have the advantage of being able to lay down DPS "while in route" to the typical engagement range of these weapon systems. Back before they changed nanofibers, overdrives and such to make "ludicrous" possible, short range weapon systems were mostly balanced (lasers were actually considered underpowered, and a later patch that reduced EM resists slightly across the board fixed that). BS's back then (and most ships in general) were fairly slow ... biggest difference though, minmatar ships were faster than now, and webs were more effective. Webs are not playing a role in this comparision, but speed still does. Either increasing the speed or reducing the mass of minmatar ships, OR increasing the falloff should compensate for this. Since I don't see the dev's doing the first, increasing the falloff is the next logical thing.

Please try to look at the big picture and understand that each of the weapon systems have advantages and disadvantages, they are not meant to (nor should they be) line up across the board. The reality is that each of the weapon systems work in concert with the ships that they are designed to work with -- this is why you aren't trying to fit lasers to your maelstrom. If you could truely compare the weapon systems by themselves, you would in fact have people fitting lasers to every other ship since people claim they are overpowered. So, either your ship is flawed and needs to be reworked, or if there is a problem across the board, then probably your weapon system needs to be tweaked.

* - Also, don't forget that almost every amarr ship sacrifices a damage bonus for a turret energy usage bonus.

isdisco3
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2009.06.02 02:13:00 - [284]
 

Edited by: isdisco3 on 02/06/2009 02:27:47
Originally by: Mes Ren
stuff


the first part of your argument is based on the engagement happening inside 24km, and assumes that the mael would happen to be shooting damage which would hurt the baddon the most. it is, at best, a highly localized scenario. And if you looked at what i've suggested, minmatar SHOULD be the most damage at that range because they should be the mid-range dps kings. Amarr has the long, minmatar has the mid, gallente has the short.

but as i said, i'm ignoring t2 ammo because i see it as its own problem. bringing t2 ammo into this issue just complicates it even further to the realm of pointlessness. if we can solve the weapons using t1 ammunition, then we can fix t2 ammunition to augment their roles as defined with t1.

furthermore, many of your maths are simply wrong, and at best confusing.

and in conclusion, if you look at the maths i posted, you will see how pointless an increase in falloff would be for the maelstrom.

edit - just wanted to point out how bad an idea it is to say that minmatar battleships should transversal-tank the others. it would make them useless in the most common remote rep types of battleship gangs. also, wanted to point out how silly the 'if lasers are overpowered, why aren't you fitting them to your maelstrom?' argument is. in case you're wondering, its because of the 25% ROF bonus to projectiles it gives at bs 5. if lasers were 25% more powerful than my projectiles base, then we'd have an even larger problem.

Saint SaintaN
Posted - 2009.06.02 02:19:00 - [285]
 

Edited by: Saint SaintaN on 02/06/2009 02:21:31
Originally by: Mes Ren
stuff


Firstly I don't disagree with you, well not to an extent in fact if you look at the suggestions I put forth you can see we are thinking the same general way.

But you will also see that I said the guns need a 10% DPS boost.

How I came up with this figure:

Open EFT

Set up an Abaddon with a full rack of guns (I used Amarr multi but use w.e)

Set up a Maelstrom with a full rack of guns (I used RF EMP but use w.e)

Set both battleship skills to 0 (wut? to remove the automatic modifier calculations)

Manually factor in the 25% (assuming BS v on the Maelstrom) ROF increase by taking the current alpha and dividing that by the (duration - 25% of duration).

Write down the DPS

Compare and notice the over 100 DPS difference even with the Maelstrom having one of it's bonuses and you will realise that giving the maelstrom the effective 10-15% DPS increase I suggest wouldn't make it unbalanced at all (especially if you factor in reload times), include that with a increase in falloff and we are good to go.

But I completely agree that people are not taking the whole picture into account which is what I have endeavoured to do here.

Sorry if this is considered patronising I know it seems that way, I am only trying to make myself clear no disrespect is intended.

-SS

isdisco3
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2009.06.02 02:34:00 - [286]
 

Edited by: isdisco3 on 02/06/2009 02:36:24
saint, your idea is based upon the idea of doing full damage, which no autocannon ship practically ever does because they are always fighting in falloff. The maelstrom could start with 1,500 dps, but by the time it hits a geddon at 30km its going to be doing less damage than the geddon due to falloff.

the problem with autocannons is falloff. and increasing the falloff won't make a difference. autocannons need a sufficient optimal to deal damage at reasonable ranges.

Mes Ren
No Trademark
Posted - 2009.06.02 02:55:00 - [287]
 

Originally by: isdisco3
Originally by: Mes Ren
stuff


the first part of your argument is based on the engagement happening inside 24km, and assumes that the mael would happen to be shooting damage which would hurt the baddon the most. it is, at best, a highly localized scenario. And if you looked at what i've suggested, minmatar SHOULD be the most damage at that range because they should be the mid-range dps kings. Amarr has the long, minmatar has the mid, gallente has the short.

but as i said, i'm ignoring t2 ammo because i see it as its own problem. bringing t2 ammo into this issue just complicates it even further to the realm of pointlessness. if we can solve the weapons using t1 ammunition, then we can fix t2 ammunition to augment their roles as defined with t1.

furthermore, many of your maths are simply wrong, and at best confusing.

and in conclusion, if you look at the maths i posted, you will see how pointless an increase in falloff would be for the maelstrom.


I'm sorry, the math isn't wrong. I'm sorry that you find it kinda confusing. Also, trying to "take t2 ammo out of the equation" is kinda dumb. The situation is very much real world and not localized, as the resist were typical of a standard abbadon setup with the ammo types I specified (also very standard as someone else posted ... not to mention HEY! YOU CAN CHANGE DAMAGE TYPES. It's also kinda dumb to assume the mael pilot wouldn't use the damage type that can DO THE MOST DAMAGE TO IT'S TARGET!) -- it's worse with the resists if you compare to other ships. Unless you have some other ships there doing the tackling, YOU WILL HAVE TO ENGAGE AT @24KM OR LESS -- and everyone here will agree that practically all short range, non-sniping engagements take place at 24km or less. I already conceded that amarr have the advantage on approach to the 24km range, but that doesn't change the engagement range.

Concerning "Minmatar should be mid-range dps king" ... what the hell are you smoking? You obviously haven't been playing the game very long. Amarr were NEVER the long range kings, they were ALWAYS the mid-range kings. Until the apoc was retasked, amarr couldn't anything beyond 150km (and had a hard time doing that). The problem is that nowadays, everyone wants to do "everything" -- tackle, damage deal, ewar, tank. It is practically required by every FC out there that you fit a point .... well that immediately sets all engagements at 24km. Yes, you will frequently find yourself outside of that 24km engagement range, but for the vast majority of pilots, the first thing they do is burn toward that target to get within 24km. There used to be a time when tacklers did the tackling and mwd's weren't a requirement on every pvp ship.

But most all of this rant applies to BS's, your arguements don't even apply to crusier class ships and below. When it comes down to it, we are left with autocannons need a little more falloff added to compensate for speed changes, blasters need their tracking increased some to compensate for web changes, arties need their base damage increased some to give them better alpha and compensate for the hp buff from over a year ago (though not all arties, only bs sized arties). In addition to this, I would want to say they need to make modules that increase falloff.

* Off Topic - As long as I have these suggestion going, there needs to be a method to deal with inties tackling with long points. Right now, very very few ships of any class can kill it or get away from it before the Inty's gang 2 systems over can come and gank you. Increasing the range of ECM burst would be one way, making it so drones can shoot while MWD'ing would be another way.

Mes Ren
No Trademark
Posted - 2009.06.02 03:01:00 - [288]
 

Originally by: Saint SaintaN
Edited by: Saint SaintaN on 02/06/2009 02:21:31
Originally by: Mes Ren
stuff


Firstly I don't disagree with you, well not to an extent in fact if you look at the suggestions I put forth you can see we are thinking the same general way.

But you will also see that I said the guns need a 10% DPS boost.

How I came up with this figure:

Open EFT

Set up an Abaddon with a full rack of guns (I used Amarr multi but use w.e)

Set up a Maelstrom with a full rack of guns (I used RF EMP but use w.e)

Set both battleship skills to 0 (wut? to remove the automatic modifier calculations)

Manually factor in the 25% (assuming BS v on the Maelstrom) ROF increase by taking the current alpha and dividing that by the (duration - 25% of duration).

Write down the DPS

Compare and notice the over 100 DPS difference even with the Maelstrom having one of it's bonuses and you will realise that giving the maelstrom the effective 10-15% DPS increase I suggest wouldn't make it unbalanced at all (especially if you factor in reload times), include that with a increase in falloff and we are good to go.

But I completely agree that people are not taking the whole picture into account which is what I have endeavoured to do here.

Sorry if this is considered patronising I know it seems that way, I am only trying to make myself clear no disrespect is intended.

-SS


You need to use the skills as they effect different systems differently, and play a major role in how things work. Little things like sig radius, agility, speed, cap usage, resists, and the like all play roles, as does ship bonuses. I don't personally think they need the dps boost, and that is largely based on the idea that people didn't complain before the patch. Simply based on that, I've geared my suggestions toward methods of compensating for the speed and web changes. My 2 cents.

isdisco3
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2009.06.02 03:18:00 - [289]
 

Edited by: isdisco3 on 02/06/2009 03:20:05
Originally by: Mes Ren

I'm sorry, the math isn't wrong. I'm sorry that you find it kinda confusing. Also, trying to "take t2 ammo out of the equation" is kinda dumb.


The maths are wrong, and you didn't post proof of how you came to your numbers. I clearly stated my reasons for taking t2 ammo out of the equation, if you're not going to read them I'm not going to repeat them.

Originally by: Mes Ren
The situation is very much real world and not localized, as the resist were typical of a standard abbadon setup with the ammo types I specified (also very standard as someone else posted ... not to mention HEY! YOU CAN CHANGE DAMAGE TYPES. It's also kinda dumb to assume the mael pilot wouldn't use the damage type that can DO THE MOST DAMAGE TO IT'S TARGET!) -- it's worse with the resists if you compare to other ships.


You have never actually flown minmatar, have you? You wouldn't say any of this if you've spent extensive time in a minmatar battleship. Nice caps lock though.

Originally by: Mes Ren
Unless you have some other ships there doing the tackling, YOU WILL HAVE TO ENGAGE AT @24KM OR LESS -- and everyone here will agree that practically all short range, non-sniping engagements take place at 24km or less. I already conceded that amarr have the advantage on approach to the 24km range, but that doesn't change the engagement range.


NICE USE OF CAPS LOCK AGAIN. 24km is not the only engagement range, and according to you yourself, we should be looking at all scenarios.

Originally by: Mes Ren

Concerning "Minmatar should be mid-range dps king" ... what the hell are you smoking? You obviously haven't been playing the game very long. Amarr were NEVER the long range kings, they were ALWAYS the mid-range kings. Until the apoc was retasked, amarr couldn't anything beyond 150km (and had a hard time doing that).


Right, let's ignore my 2.5 years of minmatar spec as I clearly have no idea what I'm doing. Again, if you read my posts in this thread, you'd see I'm arguing for minmatar to be the mid-range dps king. And you're confusing long-range weapons with short-range ones; nobody here is talking about engagements at 150km.

Originally by: Mes Ren

non-sensical, quite angry rant ending on interceptors? lol?


Neuts, small drones, or not flying solo. Solves all interceptor problems. But that's completely unrelated to this topic. Also, I'm not going to reply to any of your posts because you:

a. want your amarr to remain on top
b. can't make a clear, reasoned argument without going on so many tangents it makes me want to kill myself.
c. clearly don't understand that a transversal-tanking battleship is lols.
d. don't understand the concept of falloff as it affects minmatar damage.

so gl and hf.

Mes Ren
No Trademark
Posted - 2009.06.02 03:22:00 - [290]
 

Originally by: isdisco3
Edited by: isdisco3 on 02/06/2009 02:36:24
saint, your idea is based upon the idea of doing full damage, which no autocannon ship practically ever does because they are always fighting in falloff. The maelstrom could start with 1,500 dps, but by the time it hits a geddon at 30km its going to be doing less damage than the geddon due to falloff.

the problem with autocannons is falloff. and increasing the falloff won't make a difference. autocannons need a sufficient optimal to deal damage at reasonable ranges.


I don't disagree with you assetment of Saint's post, but I very much disagree with your idea that autocannons should have the same optimal as lasers .... autocannons are SUPPOSED to operate in falloff. If you want more range, use arties (though not BS sized ones as they need a damage boost), but for all other classes of ships, arties are great. I know quite a few arty cane pilots that simply **** everything. IF you want lasers, you should fly amarr, though I think you will find that it isn't all it's cracked up to be. I don't think you will like getting owned by fleet stabbers, having blaster moa's get under your guns and killing you, having practically ANY frig get under your cruiser or larger sized weapons and hold you with nothing that you can do but die to his gang that is 3 jumps away. I'm sure you will also enjoy flying frigs that either can't tackle, or are stuck with rockets that are broken.

The problem is that people seem to think that they can accomplish what their own race does while having the advantages of lasers. You don't really seem to grasp the down sides of flying amarr. I always wished I had trained minmatar when I started to fully understand PVP. I hated how every other race had options for EWAR that amarr simply doesn't have with only 3 mid slots. I learned (which still holds true today) that as amarr, there were very few ships you could solo with, and as a general rule, you need to fly in a gang. Generally speaking, Amarr deal damage and tank ... that is about it. No finesse flying, other than the curse, completely outclassed until the release of the harbinger. There is a HUGE advantage to having additional mid slots for webs, painter, ECCM, etc. There is a HUGE advantage to the speed and agility of many other ships, particularly minmatar. You can't look at weapon systems without looking at the ships that go with the weapon system.

Mes Ren
No Trademark
Posted - 2009.06.02 04:35:00 - [291]
 

Originally by: isdisco3

More Stuff



I have flown minmatar. I laid out where it came from before, but here you go again. Damage types were listed, ranges were listed, all level 5 assumed, 0 transversal assumed, mwd assumed on for approach, drones assumed (as they play a big difference from ship to ship), standard builds for respective ships. I used EFT to determine the numbers as it was easier than figuring it by hand, but so you know, you have a 50% chance to hit when at MAX falloff (assuming 0 transversal again). Those numbers I posted are incredibly accurate taking this factors into the equation. Further more, in every fight, you will engage at 24km or less otherwise you will simply warp away rather than die. BS Autocannons have an advantage when dealing with targets smaller than a BS. Yes, autocannons are at a disadvantage compared to caldari and amarr while approaching your target, but you are by no means not doing damage, even well beyond your falloff. Once within 24km though, you are doing more ACTUAL damage to the typical BS target than abbadon due to damage type. It's not nearly the doom and gloom you portray as you don't take the whole ship into account ... meaning the better tracking, no cap use, better damage type, more drones, etc.

Never did I refer to battleship transversal tanking.

The changes to speed really show through most in BS classes, the problem here is that you are providing solutions to 1 ship and 1 class, not to the whole range of the weapon system. I'm all for balance. The game isn't fun with something overpowered, but more often than not, things get made overpowered by a few very loud people. Everything was considered very balanced in the way of weapon systems before the speed nerf (except for BS arties), they didn't secretly boost amarr in that patch, but closing speed did change, as did webs. So boost tracking on blasters, increase falloff on autocannons -- those things should compensate for the changes. The idea of making autocannon optimals half that of lasers and keeping the falloff similar is absolutely ludicrous as it would allow minmatar ships to hit out to close to twice the distance of any other short range weapon system... inaddition to being the best close range weapon system.


bubbly bird
Posted - 2009.06.02 08:11:00 - [292]
 

Edited by: bubbly bird on 02/06/2009 08:17:41

Originally by: Deva Blackfire



34k ehp and you die before you get even RR help. Mate fly a bit in RR gangs before you try to tell how "awesome" one ship is.


34K MORE EHP than the geddon, MATE learn to read before you try to "disect" others posts.Laughing

Originally by: Deva Blackfire
3x sink on aba + 2x eanm + dc = 1 slot for plate left. 1 plate = you die before people can lock you and rr cycles completes.


And yet it has more.... 30000-35000 MORE EHP with that setup than pretty much any of the other standard RR BS.....

So basically get a clue pal cos if the abaddon does not have enough EHP to be good at RR gangs then no ship does as the abaddon even with the setup above has the more EHP than most of the other RR BS.Rolling Eyes

Originally by: Deva Blackfire
You are both ignorant and lack RR gameplay knowledge.


You are the one thats ignorant and lacks knowledge as you clearly proved above by claiming that the abaddon setup above that has one of the highest ehp tanks of any RR BS would some how melt faster than ships with lower EHP.LaughingLaughing

Originally by: Deva Blackfire
I shown (1-3 pages earlier) link to our KB from typical RR engagement.

You showed a link that suited your purposes nothing more, trying to claim anything else is a exhageration. I can find plenty of links that have megas using rails in RR gangs.


Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Megas and geddons/abas deal more-less the same DPS on targets so the "range advantage" means almost nothing.


Having a large available range for a tiny dps loss is a huge advantage and anybody who claims other wise is a idiot.

Oh and if that engagment was at 5km as you seem to claim then it shows how OP lasers are simply because at that range the top dmg dealers should be virtually 100% the blaster ships as that is where they should be melting stuff but its not even close to 100%.

Originally by: Deva Blackfire
ESPECIALLY when you engage another RR gang because they all will be within 5km of each other.


LaughingShocked

WTF are you smoking?, a RR gangs ships only need to be near/within rr range of each other not the hostile gang you total muppet.LaughingLaughingLaughing

Originally by: Deva Blackfire

Too bad. Ill take geddon over aba into RR gang anyday. ONLY exception is EHP bait (someone has to decloak first...)


Well as you have shown above you are rather cluless so its not supprising tbh.

The abaddon gets only -53 RAW turret dps for +34000 more ehp and fantastic all over resistance coverage and you wanna still fly the geddon?.

Whats your next pitiful excuse giong to be?...ship price?.Laughing

Stop posting.Laughing

Galan Undris
Posted - 2009.06.02 08:14:00 - [293]
 

Edited by: Galan Undris on 02/06/2009 09:27:13
Originally by: Mes Ren
I used EFT to determine the numbers as it was easier than figuring it by hand, but so you know, you have a 50% chance to hit when at MAX falloff (assuming 0 transversal again).


EFT doesn't consider the hit-table. Low quality hits are at the bottom, 'excellent' hits are the first to miss, so effective dps at optimal+falloff is about 40% (39.75% to be exact, formula here).

isdisco3's numbers are incorrect as well, the 21km number is too low and the 36 km and 51 km numbers are too high. Correct numbers would be (assuming 700 'paper' dps):
6km - 714 (due to 1% wreckings)
21km - 556 dps
36km - 278 dps
51km - 105 dps

It's not a linear falloff, up to about 50% falloff you don't loose that much at all, but from about 50-60% it drops off pretty fast. EFT is not accurate in this regard.

place1
Amarr
Orion Ore Industries
Posted - 2009.06.02 08:39:00 - [294]
 

My thoughts on this are that the weapons are balanced with each other by them self's the problem has come from the speed nerf(nano nerf) and the web nerf.

As a solution that I think would be best is to revisit the values of the 2 nerf that caused the problems mostly the speed nerf.

As I see it the problem with blasters boats is not there damage or tracking but rather that it takes to long for them to get to there opt range. Adding 10-15m/s to Gal. Battle Ships (maybe more but testing would need to be done to find out the right amount) would reduce the time it take for them to get into there opt range and reduce the effectiveness of other weapons once they are into that range. As a side effect of adding speed to the Gal. Battle Ships, speed would need to be added to the Minmatar Battle Ships as well in the range of 20-25m/s (or greater if larger amounts were needed for the Gal ships).

As I see it damage of the weapons is as follows as range to target changes.

Starting at 30KM from target moving into 3km of the target damage is Lasers best Projectiles middle and Hybrids last. As you get close that changes so that once at 3KM the damages are Hybrids best Projectiles middle and Lasers last. The problem right now is that Gal. BS have to spend to much time getting into there range resulting in them being almost dead by the time they get there and there High damage can no longer save them especially on passive tanked fits.

A increase in speed means the ships don't spend as much time outside of there best damage and have a much better chance to do there job. As well the increase speed makes the slower tracking weapons Lazars and Projectiles less effective at hitting. This also has a effect on the Hybrid weapons but seeing as they have the best tracking it effects them less than the other weapons. (A small boost in Blaster tracking may still be in order in the lines of 10-12% but not before testing what the speed boost would do)

As for Projectile weapons I also think the increase in falloff would work nice for them they are suppose to fight in falloff anyway. As for the people trying to say falloff does nothing for Projectiles I say that is not correct.
Originally by: isdisco3
...
with barrage, 800's, and 3 gyro's, the optimal is 6 and the falloff is 30 with a max dps (from turrets) of 700. That means at:

6km - 700
21km - 525 dps
36km - 350 dps
51km - 175

Now, increasing the falloff on the mael (same setup, barrage, etc) by say 10% would give us a falloff of 33km, and numbers such as:

6km - 700
22.5km - 525
39km - 350
55km - 175


(only quoting isdisco3 for the numbers)
What is being missed here is at the same ranges as the before falloff change the damage after the falloff change will increase excluding opt range witch is already doing 100% damage in theory. (misses due to tracking means no turret will do 100% damage) that is how falloff does help projectiles seeing as if you were trying to fight a ship at 21KM before falloff change and were doing 525 DPS why now would you move to 22.5KM to fight that ship? You wouldn't you would still be at 21KM and the DPS would be more than 525.(DPS Buff for Projectile weapons archived) (A larger than 10% falloff Buff might be needed but testing would determine that)

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2009.06.02 09:57:00 - [295]
 

Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 02/06/2009 09:58:32
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 02/06/2009 09:57:40
Quote:

And yet it has more.... 30000-35000 MORE EHP with that setup than pretty much any of the other standard RR BS.....



Barely 25k more than dual plated geddon. Loses almost 170dps in exchange (when using 7 guns).

Quote:

So basically get a clue pal cos if the abaddon does not have enough EHP to be good at RR gangs then no ship does as the abaddon even with the setup above has the more EHP than most of the other RR BS.Rolling Eyes



Reading comprehension ftw, aye? I said that 1 plated aba has not enough EHP to survive sometimes, yes? Total 134k ehp. Yet i managed to lose 131k ehp geddon multiple times by being just 2 salvoed. So yes 134k ehp is nothing ESPECIALLY when you decloak first. Unless you talk about using 10 vs 10 rr gangs, then be my guest. We use em in 50 vs 80-100 fights quite often.

Quote:

Originally by: Deva Blackfire
You are both ignorant and lack RR gameplay knowledge.


You are the one thats ignorant and lacks knowledge as you clearly proved above by claiming that the abaddon setup above that has one of the highest ehp tanks of any RR BS would some how melt faster than ships with lower EHP.LaughingLaughing



You cant read. LaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughing

Quote:

Originally by: Deva Blackfire
I shown (1-3 pages earlier) link to our KB from typical RR engagement.

You showed a link that suited your purposes nothing more, trying to claim anything else is a exhageration. I can find plenty of links that have megas using rails in RR gangs.



Yes and i can find links with t1 guns+t1 drones geddons. Your point? If you want browse a bit more thru our killboard and you will see more RR gangs and it always ends up the same. Both megas and geddons end up same place. Hell we even do have fair share of pilots who can fly all races equally and they still fly megas over amarr ship. Not everyone runs after so called "FOTM" because someone on forums said so.

Quote:

Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Megas and geddons/abas deal more-less the same DPS on targets so the "range advantage" means almost nothing.


Having a large available range for a tiny dps loss is a huge advantage and anybody who claims other wise is a idiot.



Because having 0,5x tracking modifier compared to blasters is godlike.

Quote:

Oh and if that engagment was at 5km as you seem to claim then it shows how OP lasers are simply because at that range the top dmg dealers should be virtually 100% the blaster ships as that is where they should be melting stuff but its not even close to 100%.



Depends on ship and time of engagement. Started close went further off.

Quote:

Originally by: Deva Blackfire
ESPECIALLY when you engage another RR gang because they all will be within 5km of each other.


LaughingShocked

WTF are you smoking?, a RR gangs ships only need to be near/within rr range of each other not the hostile gang you total muppet.LaughingLaughingLaughing



Ill ignore personal attacks (seems thats all you can do). You ever flown rr gang before? Start at 20km from each other. AMARR RULEZZZZ. Now we start firing on primary and start approaching (can be even with MWD) primary. So called "regrouping on enemy". Have you ever heard of it? I guess no. Anyways after you pass 20km and regrouped on primary (secondary, tertiary, whatever) you are 1-5km from all enemy ships (because they kept RR range). Suddenly almost all ships (your and enemy) are 5 km from each other. Blasters have highest DPS in 1-5km range, yes? Owait so they are actually useful. So learn to play before you post. LaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughing

bubbly bird
Posted - 2009.06.02 10:54:00 - [296]
 

Edited by: bubbly bird on 02/06/2009 10:56:55
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Barely 25k more than dual plated geddon.


25k more is 25k more muppet and considering the dual plated geddon has just over 100k in total that works out to 20-25% more EHP.

SO WHY CLAIM THE ABADDON WOULD GET MELTED BEFORE IT GOT RR'd CLOWN?.LaughingLaughing
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Loses almost 170dps in exchange (when using 7 guns).

a 3 x hs abaddon does 802 turret dmg.
a 3 x hs geddon does 855 turret dmg.

Back to school jr.Laughing
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Reading comprehension ftw, aye? I said that 1 plated aba has not enough EHP to survive sometimes, yes? Total 134k ehp. Yet i managed to lose 131k ehp geddon multiple times by being just 2 salvoed. So yes 134k ehp is nothing ESPECIALLY when you decloak first. Unless you talk about using 10 vs 10 rr gangs, then be my guest. We use em in 50 vs 80-100 fights quite often.

Im talking about cold hard FACTS and the abaddon gets pretty much the best spread of EHP and dps of any RR ship.

And if its gonna get melted cos of alpha then all the others are as well ffs thats called a "comparison"....LaughingRolling Eyes


Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Because having 0,5x tracking modifier compared to blasters is godlike.

So this is where you tell us that when your in your 50 vs 50 uber rr gangs that tracking is significant?.

Use the search option on the market and look under "webs".
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Ill ignore personal attacks (seems thats all you can do).

Sarcasm and insults about having flown in rr gangs = personal attacks in my book so as soon as you stop using them il stop replying to them pal.
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
You ever flown rr gang before?


Flown them and led them, i even FC'd many varied gangs while a member of tri and was top killer on the alliance monthly KB while i was with them...and i do not remember you FCing any gangs while i was in tri you always mouthed off about things after the fact but never had the balls to step up and take responsability by leading.

Hindsight and armchair quarterbacking doth not a leader make pal.
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Start at 20km from each other. AMARR RULEZZZZ. Now we start firing on primary and start approaching (can be even with MWD) primary. So called "regrouping on enemy". Have you ever heard of it? I guess no.


Basic paper tiger mistake number 1.

Ive heard of it although if the fight is spread out over 20km you should really make sure your gang is regrouped into RR range first...or are you saying that your always in perfect position and RR range?...
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Anyways after you pass 20km and regrouped on primary (secondary, tertiary, whatever) you are 1-5km from all enemy ships (because they kept RR range).


Basic paper tiger mistake number 2.

Wrong RR range = 8.4km this means that in a 3D enviroment a hostile ship can be as far as 13km away from some of your ships.
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Suddenly almost all ships (your and enemy) are 5 km from each other. Blasters have highest DPS in 1-5km range, yes? Owait so they are actually useful.


Basic paper tiger mistake number 3.

SUDDENLY?????Laughing.....WTF has the word "SUDDENLY" got to do with moving 50 slow ass plated to hell BS at least 20km if not further from a dead stop maybe or maybe not using a mwd while staying in RR range?.

Theres nothing "suddenly" about it pal.


20km at mwd speed for a plated BS + acceleration = 40 seconds, so 4-5 mwd cycles.
20km at non mwd speed for a plated BS doin around 100ms = 3 mins.

Not including needing to burn into RR range in a lot of instances.

The mega only gets 100ish more turret dps than the abaddon at 4.5km while at the 20-25km range the abaddon is still doing 730+ turret dps and the mega is doing 300 max.

Back to school jr.







bubbly bird
Posted - 2009.06.02 10:56:00 - [297]
 

Edited by: bubbly bird on 02/06/2009 11:01:04
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Owait so they are actually useful. So learn to play before you post.


Did i say the mega was TOTALLY useless (blasters or the mega do need adjusting though)...did i even bring the mega up???.

I said the abaddon was one of if not the best RR ship and you went on a stupid emo rant, and now you realised you made a fool of your self your trying to twist the discussion to summat its not.

Go away.

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2009.06.02 11:09:00 - [298]
 

Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 02/06/2009 11:09:51
Never said it was BAD rr ship. Just said it was not as perfect as you made it.

Quote:

Just how perfect can one ship be ffs?.


Those are your words. And i said already: if it goes for rr it loses DPS. It has capacitor issues (how long can you perma rr and fire before your cap dies and you are useless?). But like above, i NEVER said its bad. I just said i will take geddon over aba any day and thats exactly what i do. Fly rr geddons because i dont like abaddon and its cap dependancy. plus i'd hate to remove turret to fit rr.

Seishi Maru
doMAL S.A.
Posted - 2009.06.02 11:33:00 - [299]
 

Originally by: isdisco3
Edited by: isdisco3 on 01/06/2009 22:51:06
As I said, I see t2 ammunition as an entirely different issue. However, you must remember that with barrage, 800's, and 3 gyro's, the optimal is 6 and the falloff is 30 with a max dps (from turrets) of 700. That means at:

6km - 700
21km - 525 dps
36km - 350 dps
51km - 175

Now, increasing the falloff on the mael (same setup, barrage, etc) by say 10% would give us a falloff of 33km, and numbers such as:

6km - 700
22.5km - 525
39km - 350
55km - 175

compare that to the baddon with scorch which does 800dps from 45, while never having to enter falloff.

You're still going to have an extremely low dps ship, only now it hits from marginally further out. It's still sub-par, and given a choice I'd still wish I'd spec'd amarr 2.5 years ago instead of minmatar.

Now, give the 800's an optimal and falloff of 12.5km, as I've proposed. Here's what you get, with barrage:

optimal of 12.5, falloff of 18.75

12.5km - 700 dps
31.25km - 525 dps
50km - 350 dps
68.75km - 175 dps

Now obviously, if we change how AC's work we'd have to change how the t2 ammunition works.


AC do nto need that much range. They need to have worse range than lasers. Why? because they already have better tracking and no cap usage ( small advantage but an advntage nontheless). A simple 10% increase in falloff for all AC would do the trick. That is NEEDED to compensate for the loss on engagement range minmatar ships had with the advent of overheat to tackling mods.

Another thing that woudl help a lot to balance the guns is make trackign computers and tracking enhancers be 10% Optimal and 10% falloff bonus.... (that would FIX the arties range discrepancy).

Other thing. Seems that recently CCP has FINNALY figured the "OMG OMG we can only give bonuses that are 5% multiples" is [email protected]!#$#[email protected]#. They can adjust the rest of dps on a per ship basis. For example tempest chagne the 5% damage one to a 6.5% damage one. Maelstrom could get a 6.5% rof bonus (coem on it needs 3 damage mods to get same damage as abaddon with 2 damage mods)

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2009.06.02 11:44:00 - [300]
 

Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 02/06/2009 11:45:08
Does mael really need that much of a damage boost? Flown it only briefly but with 4x gyros and it deals nice DPS + has godly tank at the same time (no-mwd setup for gatecamp breaking). Thing is i had only best named guns (no skill for t2 ones, its qued ;p) so i felt the faloff issue a bit. Thinking now about it... 10-15% higher faloff could help it quite a lot.


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