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Mhormal
Amarr
THE F.E.A.R
Posted - 2009.07.04 23:58:00 - [511]
 

Cant really say wormholes were a waste of time, exploration brought me back into the game , i like the idea to discover new dangerous systems, and dangerous not means to be sure to encounter a big blob and a bubble after the gate.
No really its a well thought expansion and the size and mass limitation to enter those system is brilliant.

Id like to see them implementing even more systems. Havent they said they were adding enw space and we would ahve to build stargates to it ? now that would be great.
Not many use the T3 cruisers cause of the price so they are toys for the rich , but then again you need to have goals and something to look forward, and those ships can be it.

Faction wars a waste ? now yes its clearly a waste of time, everyone says its not worth doing, you will just loose isk and pvp in frigs to not loose too much. The militias are unbalanced , and theres no r ewards at all as far as i know .
Like someone psoted before i think your faction should reimburse your ship if you lost it during warfare or at least a part of it.
Else you have nothing else to do than grind level 4 missions to buy another one.

Speaking of Level 4 missions , the idea of moving them to low sec is utterly stupid ,moving level 5 there was a terrible idea, since no one bother to do them.
Its just too easy to gank someone or a small team when they use pve ships, and strangely ,you know ,people dont want to have a target painted on their back and play victim. You will just see missionners silently quit without even posting a whine thread here.


Trebor Locke
Gallente
Nexus Aerospace Corporation
Posted - 2009.07.05 01:08:00 - [512]
 

Akita,

Your comments are very socialistic in nature. The only means of generating money (other than creating a new character) in the game is by mission running/ratting. Mission running/ratting actually creates ISK as opposed to passing it around (which is what every other profession does).

Lowering LV4 Missions by a drastic amount will cause DEFLATION BY A DRASTIC AMOUNT (Econ 101). No one gains more or less power relative to inflation with that being the case.

The reason FW worked: Becuase it did actually add a mechanic for fleet vs fleet combat, which was the whole point....
The reason Alchemy worked: Because I like having cheaper Ferrofluid (something used in all Tech 2).
The reason why Tech III and wormhole space works: My whole alliance lives out in W-Space.....we have a 2 month old player (personal friend of mine) who has never played before and now has 2 billion ISK and his own POS complete with structures. All of that cause of the W-Space money he's made.

Also...you want base line? Why aren't there a bazillion other traders out there in the game? Trade makes an exponential amount of money compared to Lv4 Mission Running and is one of the few ways to actually gain power.

You gain power in EVE the same way you do in real life......through social contracts. Money means nothing with out leadership capability. Many people realize this as a major source of power....Just look at how many corporations have opened/closed in EVE! :-D

Your concept of Risk vs Reward is still very flawed. Risk does NOT always = Reward! If I move a bunch of expensive stuff out into 0.0...but no one wants it out there......then all I've done is taken a big risk to make a whole lot of NOTHING. Though I think I gave quite a lecture on that one with you on the forums about 1-2 years ago.


Anyway.....I know this is probably TL;DR.

Have a good day!

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2009.07.05 13:11:00 - [513]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 05/07/2009 13:46:18
Originally by: Trebor Locke
Your comments are very socialistic in nature. The only means of generating money (other than creating a new character) in the game is by mission running/ratting. Mission running/ratting actually creates ISK as opposed to passing it around (which is what every other profession does).

You are ignoring one of the largest ISK amounts generating mechanics in the game.
SHIP INSURANCE PAYOUTS.

Quote:
Lowering LV4 Missions by a drastic amount will cause DEFLATION BY A DRASTIC AMOUNT (Econ 101). No one gains more or less power relative to inflation with that being the case.

Ask a mission-runner to tell you, how much ISK does he get from bounties and rewards, compared to ISK he gets from loot, salvage and cashing in LPs. Also, never forget, cashing in LPs actually DESTROYS ISK in the process most of the time.
Mission-running is very likely a deflationary activity, due to the fact it generates more ITEM value than ISK out of thin air.

Quote:
The reason FW worked: Becuase it did actually add a mechanic for fleet vs fleet combat, which was the whole point.

So, how do you explain the fact most of the people that tried it left, and that most of the ones still in there are actually inactive ?

Quote:
The reason Alchemy worked: Because I like having cheaper Ferrofluid (something used in all Tech 2).

Newsflash : you DON'T get cheaper Ferrofluid. Or, at least, not noticeably cheaper.

Quote:
The reason why Tech III and wormhole space works: My whole alliance lives out in W-Space.....we have a 2 month old player (personal friend of mine) who has never played before and now has 2 billion ISK and his own POS complete with structures. All of that cause of the W-Space money he's made.

It's not about it working or not working, it's about adoption levels.
This latest patch will go a long way towards the actual goal, but they still have work to do.


Quote:
Also...you want base line? Why aren't there a bazillion other traders out there in the game? Trade makes an exponential amount of money compared to Lv4 Mission Running and is one of the few ways to actually gain power.

Because it's PVP, that's why. Because your profit comes from other people's laziness, lack of math skills or impatience. If nobody is in a hurry, nobody is lazy, and everybody is a math whiz, you can't make any money trading. And the more people trade vs less people using you as an intermediary, the less money you make.

Quote:
You gain power in EVE the same way you do in real life......through social contracts. Money means nothing with out leadership capability. Many people realize this as a major source of power....Just look at how many corporations have opened/closed in EVE!

I never denied that, but it is irrelevant in the statistics of the game activity breakdown.

Quote:
Your concept of Risk vs Reward is still very flawed. Risk does NOT always = Reward! If I move a bunch of expensive stuff out into 0.0...but no one wants it out there......then all I've done is taken a big risk to make a whole lot of NOTHING. Though I think I gave quite a lecture on that one with you on the forums about 1-2 years ago.

I don't remember the exact issue you're talking about, but again, if you would have taken the time to look past the mere words "risk vs reward" and actually READ the full description I have repeatedly made in various forms, you wouldn't be saying this.


Spurty
Caldari
V0LTA
VOLTA Corp
Posted - 2009.07.05 13:27:00 - [514]
 

Edited by: Spurty on 05/07/2009 13:27:37
Originally by: Akita T

Quote:
The reason FW worked: Becuase it did actually add a mechanic for fleet vs fleet combat, which was the whole point.

So, how do you explain the fact most of the people that tried it left, and that most of the ones still in there are actually inactive ?




Laggy fighting (seriously, ten times worth than a desync type fight, crazy things happen).

Neutral pirates in t2 ships and tasks forcing you to turn up in a t1 ship to get through a gate (thanks for the handicap CCP).

Huge gate camps

Lack of financial reason to undock

Ridiculous amounts of pointless spying on gangs running 'missions' (Probably died out as even the spies must have realized they were investing way too much energy in this activity for the lousy pay out at the end)

Massive restrictions on travel (You agree to staying out of 50% of empire second you sign up).

For a game where many people find reason to stick with it as it has a very low level of concentration needed while you play 90% of the time, joining a faction suddenly find yourself glued to the screen with usually, nothing happening, but 'potentially' chance of death as you start to warp from a gate, land at the next.

Lots of reasons people left it, it really was fun in the first couple of days when there were fleets in the 100s jumping into nuetrals in carriers sitting on gates (Yah, we ganked them, could not find the killmails, far too much water under the bridge since then).

Faction warfare needs some serious looking at to get many people that left it back and there are some plans on the board already.

Mika Meroko
Minmatar
Crayon Posting Inc
Posted - 2009.07.05 16:57:00 - [515]
 

1 phrase comes to mind.


Beef level 5 missions.

mari essence
Posted - 2009.07.11 19:58:00 - [516]
 

Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah
Sounds familiar, but when confronting CCP about it, they went "we're very proud about what we did, blahblah (insert marketing rabble here). Evil or Very Mad

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2009.07.19 12:27:00 - [517]
 


So...


T3/wormholes got a boost, still not quite there, but a major improvement nevertheless, looking good.

Some FW rewards are in the pipeworks, which is also great, hope it's enough to bring new life into it, again looking good.


Now then... what about the rest of the stuff, like the industrial revolution, for instance ? Laughing
You know... alchemy, storefronts, the works ?
Twisted Evil

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2009.08.10 21:11:00 - [518]
 

Oh, and where's that 5th subsystem for T3 cruisers we were promised even before T3 was introduced ? We barely got the 4th one...
Laughing

Drunk Driver
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2009.08.10 21:14:00 - [519]
 








ZOMBIE THREAD, BACK FROM THE DEAD!!!





Laughing

Bibbleibble
Posted - 2009.08.10 21:17:00 - [520]
 

Originally by: Drunk Driver







ZOMBIE THREAD, BACK FROM THE DEAD!!!





Laughing


Why? Why did you have to do it? Can't a thread die in peace? Crying or Very sad

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2009.08.10 21:23:00 - [521]
 

Originally by: Bibbleibble
Originally by: Drunk Driver

ZOMBIE THREAD, BACK FROM THE DEAD!!!

Why? Why did you have to do it? Can't a thread die in peace? Crying or Very sad

Braaaaaaaaaaaaaaainzzz...

Bestofworst Worstofbest
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2009.08.10 21:33:00 - [522]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Bibbleibble
Originally by: Drunk Driver

ZOMBIE THREAD, BACK FROM THE DEAD!!!

Why? Why did you have to do it? Can't a thread die in peace? Crying or Very sad

Braaaaaaaaaaaaaaainzzz...

Scaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaning...

Jekyl Eraser
Posted - 2009.10.30 09:00:00 - [523]
 

I think you're wrong about FW. Players don't (or didn't before latest changes) join it for profit but for wrecks. Thats why RvB is so popular.

Thenagain it would be very interesting if FW was made so that you could make as much isk from pvp as from lvl 4:s !! Very hard to accomplish tho.

Zartanic
Posted - 2009.10.30 09:25:00 - [524]
 

I don't play for ISK and never would. There is no point in ISK at all its just a virtual currency. It's what you can do with it that matters. Level 4's are a way to earn ISK fast enough to have time to do more interesting things. Remove them and players will simply have less fun. That's bad for the game.

Something has to give more ISK than anything else, its impossible to balance. If CCP want to change it they need to encourage other activities not punish what players are doing. Its a game, players can and will stop anytime if they are not having fun or they feel they are restricted.

All this social engineering crap really does not work. One day people will grasp that and stop trying to force others to play the way they want.

Seishi Maru
doMAL S.A.
Posted - 2009.10.30 10:14:00 - [525]
 

You can make other things apart from nerfing income of level 4.

You can make level 4 Harder to run, so that 3 month old characters are not running them in drakes. You can make them be doable only in a reasonably well skilled battleship and only WALKED OVER by a very skilled marauder.

SO people that want to focus and invest on level 4 can do it. BUt for just casual isk making on the first months of game the level 4's become not the dominant option.

Gsptlsnz
Posted - 2009.10.30 11:13:00 - [526]
 

Edited by: Gsptlsnz on 30/10/2009 11:23:41

EvE's economy is badly skewed, but it's not because of L4 missioning in highSec.

Of course any discussion of this isn't helped by the astonishing levels of collective denial in EvE.

Everybody parrots the meme "EvE is about risk vs reward" but hardly anyone seems to believe it. What happens is simple enough: players trade off time vs entertainment value. And what they do with their time is exactly what they **should** do. Each individual makes their choices, and they are, by definition, the correct choices. This last point is critical - and it's where the "EvE denial" comes in.

Too many in highSec? EvEidiot answer: the players there are cowards. True answer: in context, it offers the most fun per hour played for those players who stay there. If you don't believe that simple truth, you can never find the ways to change people's behavior. "You made the wrong choice" is meaningless in this context.

Risk vs reward:

* There are very few fights in EvE (compared to other contexts). Fights are often very one-sided, or very cheap ships are used. Why? Risk vs reward. If you want more fights, reduce the cost of losing.

* Want more players in lowSec? /lol This one is not politically correct, and any statement draws out the EvEidiots. But the explanation for lowSec demographics is simple enough: High risk.

And what exactly is the cost? You lose the time it takes to replace the ship, its contents, and get back to where you were. If it's me, in a missioning BS, that's about 10 hours. Somewhere between 2 days and one week's play. Should I do missions in lowSec? /lol. Would it change things if the cost was 30 minutes instead of 10 hours? Of course. Would it change things if the risk of losss is low? Look at highSec population.

Why is RvsB wildy successful? Because people can fly and lose "10-minute" ships (cheaply fitted T1 frigates and cruisers). Reduce the effective cost (risk x time time) and suddenly there are many more PvPers.

The fact is, highSec missions pay too *little* to bear the cost of balanced PvP. And so risk/cost/reward management makes the fights rare and one-sided (lowSec), or a system is created to allow the use of cheap ships (RvB).

My Postman
Posted - 2009.10.30 15:43:00 - [527]
 

Canīt follow the OPīs thoughts very much about this L4 missioning thing. As many would like to bring them to low-sec (and as far as i read itīs not the OPīs thoughts) this will only bring up following, imo.

Highsec missioners will go back to L3 missions, not all maybe but many.

The L4 mission runners in low sec will loose their officer pimped CNR to pirates - and be ****ed off.

And the ninja looters will be shot by their best friends - the pirates, which will be fun.

So i donīt know why there is so much trouble about it. As the majority of this topic anyway call those mission runners "carebares", thereīs no use in complaining about (as a carebare wonīt ever leave higsec).
So it does not matter how much isk "carebare" has, you wonīt ever see him.

But letīs make an experiment. CCP should call ALL space for one week nullsec and we see what happens.
My suggestions: Marauding pirate gangs in Jita for themselves only, waiting for a fool undocking from 4/4. No carebaer will undock. Universe empty - even more empty than in "former" lowsec.

So no mission runner or miner can undock - economy collapse. Noone has iskies any more, not the mission runner, not the miner, not the producer, and not the pirate, lack of targets.

And if we extend the experiment to the second week even CCP wonīt have money anymore because of emorage quitting from millions of carebares.

Ok, there are some nullsec people and pirates left, but now they have to pewpew each other.

End of game.
End of poast.
Flame starting.

Dorian Wylde
Posted - 2009.10.30 16:37:00 - [528]
 

Originally by: Akita T

EVER SO SLIGHTLY MORE ATTRACTIVE IN TERMS OF POWER GAIN POTENTIAL THAN OTHER ALREADY EXISTING ALTERNATIVES.[/b]




So you want them to make a FOTM isk machine that everyone does, right up until the new isk machine is released? Yeah, that's a great design strategy.


There are dozens of things, including general run-of-the-mill sit in low sec and shoot whoever happens by piracy, out there that aren't the isk farms of holding huge tracts of 0.0 or level 4 mission grinding. Yet people still do them.

Kind nullifies your entire argument.

Yarik Mendel
Amarr
Red Horizon Inc
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2009.10.30 16:44:00 - [529]
 

Why yo are wrong AKITA. Every expansion can't be some game-changing update, ti shouldn't be, the game would be too different and actually turn off enough players.

Instead, CCP , slowly but surely, adds new features and possibilities to Eve. That's the best way to go with a game they intend to keep around for long. See, at anytime, they can crunch out a huge update if competition comes along, but until then, there is no reason to disturb a successful formula.


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