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Chrysalis D'lilth
Posted - 2009.06.02 08:53:00 - [331]
 

Given a blatent inflammatory tone taken in the OP and thread title, if it was most people i'd of dismissed this thread as a troll post a while ago, but part of me actually thinks Akita is serious....

However - T3 is far from a failure, prices ARE falling and will continue to do so.

The salvage item that is expensive (neurovisual input matrix) have dropped 20% in a week.

The supply for these items (T3) is not huge, but it is greater than the prices that most people are willing to pay - and for that reason they will keep falling until a price is reached which is considered affordable to more players. More people will join the band wagon when they realise how much money there is to make.
.

Cang Zar
Posted - 2009.06.02 12:20:00 - [332]
 

Quote:
See this is where you are wrong. Mission are properly balanced with respect to risk and reward. No one running missions will ever build an empire or challenge the status quo. Mission are a diversion for ppl that lack time or will or skill or know how to undertake more profitable enterprise. Missions are the perfect place for the noob, the pilot alt from his/her alliance duties, the person that does not want to break out the spreadsheet /pad of paper to do industry or trade. And lets be clear I am not saying this to attack any pilots because from time to time I fall in each of those categories, occasionally all at the same time.

Also, low sec is far more profitable than empire. You can not separate moon mining from low sec and then say there is nothing to be done there. Low sec is the perfect place for the fledging industrial corp to make enough isk to move to the next step. Even solo there is tons of isk to be made in low sec (done it ! )but as the saying goes "many hand makes light work" and EVE rewards organizational skills.



Just want to say: THIS.

Noone will ever found a space-empire on high-sec mission running, not even if ccp decided to increase the level 4 mission rewards tenfold. Low-sec is much more profitable than high-sec missioning as it is, and people STILL arent flooding into low-sec.. This is why and you wont get any real rise in carebears going to low-lec by decreasing the level 4 mission rewards 20-30% as you propose.. They dont want to be ganked! Regardless of profits (unless you make low-sec profits so incredibly good that it all becomes moot). The only thing you'll get is said carebears having to spend 20-30% MORE time grinding out the level 4 missions.

Tbh, it sounds mostly like you just want your little end of low-sec to have be a more target rich enviroment, preferbly more noobs in mission fitted battleships to gank and then pretend it's awesome and so very RISKY pvp (which also by your definition apparently includes buying a truckton of ammo in jita and hauling it to dodixie, or vice versa)

Phew! that said...

I think low-sec need boostin generally. Preferbly something like this, imo low-sec needs to be a form of economy onto it self.. Like null-sec is. Null-sec has so vastly greater rewards that it's almost incomprehensible to anyone outside (we're talking billions and billions of isk generated and used constantly), but that's mostly alliance level obviously, but it really is its own economy, almost seperate from the rest of EVE. Low-sec should (imo) be something similar (but on a lesser scale).

I also think it was a shame how low-sec mining changed. Having empire-based industrial corps finding it profitable to run mining missions in low-sec, buying protection for the runs and so on, was pretty cool and let to some cool engagements (that wasnt just oriented around sitting at a gate waiting for some poor noob to come thru and be instant-ganked). I'd love for having low-sec asteroids be more profitable than veldspar again.

The overall problem is, lowering level 4 mission running doesnt make it ANY more profitable to do low-sec stuff.. It just means it'll take longer to get the isk you used to get. Nerfing high-sec mission 4s accomplishes nothing with regards to making low-sec more attractive.. The problem with low-sec isnt that the rewards are too low, it's that the risks are too high, or percieved as such. If you know what you're doing, you can make alot more isk than running level 4 missions (even on your own), but if you dont it's just one big gatecamp/ganksquad.. No amount of increased profit (again barring the incredulous) will make people want to fly into (percieved) certain gank, it's just not going to happen.

All the stuff above is just my opions on the various matters (BUT THEY'RE BASED ON FACTS ugh)

Arran Ramir
Posted - 2009.06.02 13:27:00 - [333]
 

Making people go to 0.0/lowsec for missions is very easely fixed..
Not even looking towards Reward vs Risk..

Problem lies so obvious people dont even see it..

NPC Rats AGGRO....

...

I eleborate...

When i am in a Plex/Pocket in 0.0/Lowsec, i get all the aggro of all the rats there, they blaze at my shields/armor i get sometimes scrammed by them and webbed..

Then suddenly a player pops into you pocket, since he probed you out, fitted his ship for full gank, and starts shooting also at you nicely along with the rats.
But WTF, those rats that auto aggro you, just leave that ganker nicely alone, they only want too get you down.. that ganker can gank you in peace, all Rats leave him alone..

THIS is imho so wrong and badly designed, and EvE is i think the only game that has such "focussed" NPC rats..

I would be quicker inclined too run those missions/plexes in 0.0 space where i am based with my corp, when everyone in that pocket gets aggro by some means..
So that griever ganker has too RISK his ship as well, can get shot at, scrammed and webbed by rats as much as the missioner/plexer does, so it becomes much more a equal fight again, atm its Ganker + Rats against mission/Plex runner
while i think both should be having too fight each other and the rats..

Hell, its even so atm, i can use my alt for salvaging in a pure dedicated salvaging ship (no shields/armor/guns) while my main is still shooting stuff, and fly my alt between rats without beeing afraid beeing aggressed, as long i send in my main char first too pull initial aggro..

This is just imho a huge flaw in gamedesign, wich is beeing abused by us all, preventing people too leave empire, making HighSec mission running preverable over anything else.


DmitryEKT
Clandestine.
Posted - 2009.06.02 13:29:00 - [334]
 

I would just like to point out that the OP has no idea what they're talking about - wormhole space is far more profitable than doing missions, we're pulling in 100mil per person per hour using hacs and bcs, reliably, with no limits on number of sites - we've been doing this over a month, we haven't lost any ships doing it, so your risk vs reward thing- well, you get a lot less doing missions, especially in 100mil ships.
I recommend the OP invest in some scan probes and a salvager.

Mr Katsumoto
Posted - 2009.06.02 14:06:00 - [335]
 

Having read the OP and some of the replies I just want to say this:
All to often people think that their way they play a game is the only way.
Therefore the game obviously has flaws because not everyone is playing the game as they are playing it.. right.

Then they think a bit more about it and come with a huge wall of text, trying to make a point and convince others they are right.

Resulting in a discussion leading nowhere.

It might be a shock but there are a lot of different people playing this game.
People who like to stay in high sec and don't care about low sec or 0.0 space.
People who like to mine and produce things.
People who like to check the market and haul things all over the universe.
People who like to do missions.
People who like to do missions for fast ISK.
People who like a bit of everyting.
Etc. etc.

The fact that missions give a lot of ISK isn't the sole reason people do them.
Placing lvl IV agents in low sec is a solution? Think again, it might scare a lot of people from the game. People who don't feel like going low sec in order to do a mission and get jumped by pirates.
In my opinion it is good that there is at least 1 way to make a decent amount of ISK, and if you have trained the skills to do it faster then its even better.
Not everybody can be on 24/7, not everybody likes mining, low sec, ratting, trading, hauling. Things as they are now are good, there is more then one type of personality playing this game.
The fact that you train skills 24/7 but for example can just play 10 hours a week means you have to do everything in a certain timespace. Saving up for a new ship for example. If mission running is the best way to do that, then by all means do not change anything about the way missining is set up as it is now.
CCP is obviously smart enough to take that in account.




Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2009.06.03 09:07:00 - [336]
 

Originally by: DmitryEKT
I would just like to point out that the OP has no idea what they're talking about - wormhole space is far more profitable than doing missions, we're pulling in 100mil per person per hour using hacs and bcs, reliably, with no limits on number of sites - we've been doing this over a month, we haven't lost any ships doing it, so your risk vs reward thing- well, you get a lot less doing missions, especially in 100mil ships.
I recommend the OP invest in some scan probes and a salvager.

And exactly how many people are participating in this, and how many ADDITIONAL hours are a couple of you slaving away at finding safe entries/exits or moving all the goods and loot away from inside the w-space into a place where you can turn them into ISK and spread them across participants, how much time is lost by some of you probing for valuable sites inside w-space... and so on and so forth, but most importantly, HOW MUCH TIME A DAY do you have to continuously dedicate towards this endeavour, with a logoff not really being a valid option ?
Yeah, thought so. It's nowhere near 100 mil ISK/hour per person after you account for all actual time of all people involved, and the fact you still haven't lost any ships is as much a matter of luck as it is a matter of "how large your group is", which is dependant on how much time each of you is willing and able to put into it and so on and so forth.
How many times do I have to repeat that what falls under the umbrella of "profitability" (or, how some prefer to call it "risk vs reward") is far more than ONLY the reward and actual risk experienced, but also POTENTIAL risks longside any time or other types of constraints necessary, alongside socio-entertainment factors, not all of which can be easily quantified in numbers ?

Evelgrivion
Gunpoint Diplomacy
Posted - 2009.06.03 10:11:00 - [337]
 

Some interesting statistics for this thread (courtesy of Chribba):

Top 15 posters:
Akita T: 67
Astria Tiphareth: 9
Gnulpie: 9
5pinDizzy: 8
THE L0CK: 7
Tralalaa: 6
Durzel: 6
Kateryne: 5
logeoff now: 5
Malcanis: 5
Yakia TovilToba: 5
Joe: 4
Tsual: 4
Teras Menac: 3
Soporo: 3

Akita T, if you're looking for some more people to pay attention to your complaints, feel free to join #eve-pub on the Coldfront IRC network (irc.coldfront.net). The channel could use a bit more "lively" conversation... Wink

Chrysalis D'lilth
Posted - 2009.06.03 10:51:00 - [338]
 

Edited by: Chrysalis D''lilth on 03/06/2009 10:51:57
Originally by: Akita T

stuff claiming he is the only person who knows what he's talking about....




Probing out a site (1 person, 30 mins)
3 people running 2 sites (1.5 hour x3)
bringing stuff back to jita, 1 person 1 hour.

total time? 6 hours

isk gained? over 1.3-1.5 billion (thats before invention/manufacture which will net you more).

more than 200m/hour.

Factor in some slippage, some bad luck, bathroom breaks, dinner, phone calls, watching your favorite tv program and you still make more than 100m/hour

Akita, write as much as you like but you've done nothing but troll. Just because you don't make this isk doesn't mean people aren't being quite successful in WH space. None of this will change the fact that your wrong in your premise.


Tzar'rim
Posted - 2009.06.03 11:47:00 - [339]
 

Originally by: Chrysalis D'lilth
Akita, write as much as you like but you've done nothing but troll. Just because you don't make this isk doesn't mean people aren't being quite successful in WH space. None of this will change the fact that your wrong in your premise.





The issue is that it means there's risk and you actually have to put in effort and pay attention and you need (gasp) teamwork. Missionrunning is a solo venture with little to no risk, which needs about 2 braincells and can be done while playing an FPS and alt-tabbing once in a while.

Thus it's the combination of lack of effort needed and risk combined with the isk/hour that makes it so good. So either increase the effort needed, risk needed or lower the isk/hour. And given the fact that everyone is filthy rich these days the best way is to lower the isk/hour dramatically and thus increase the push to other ways of making money. Even more if those other means require more input and interaction with others.

The whole concept of solo, non risk, non effort activities is NOT what an MMO should be about and certainly not EVE. High sec mission running is too good to be true.

Melor Rend
Posted - 2009.06.03 12:44:00 - [340]
 

Edited by: Melor Rend on 03/06/2009 13:41:52
Edited by: Melor Rend on 03/06/2009 13:40:23
I totally agree with OP. However I'm against nerfing level 4 income. It's a good way to allow new players to earn the ISK they need to start PvP. I'd much rather see CCP boosting the income levels for all other "professions".

Over the years I've noticed exactly the same thing as the OP describes... a huge amount of new professions and features are implemented because some Dev thinks it's a great idea but seems to totally forget that we (the players) can't use a console command or sql statement to give ourselves 50bil so we can stop caring about profitability of the professions we pursue. I have a limited amount of ISK and a limited amount of play time so when I'm doing something to earn ISK (to fuel the fun parts of EVE) then it has to be as efficient as possible.

I think W-space is a perfect example of a good idea that was designed so badly that nobody actually uses it the way CCP had planned. Maybe CCP should force their designers to start playing EVE as a total noob without dev tools and then they will notice quickly if one of their great ideas actually works in EVE.

Edit:
I should make this clear: the LAST thing EVE needs is to make it even harder to earn ISK. It's already a huge grind when you factor in the risks you take in PvP and making it even harder to replace ships is the very last thing this game needs. So nerfing level 4s is plain stupid. The other sources of ISK should be improved and not the easiest way to earn ISK without too much hassle be nerfed. Especially because CCP is known to go totally overboard on the nerfs - if they ever start "adjusting" the income for level 4s then they'll probably simply nerf them so bad that the player has to pay ISK for each mission instead of earning ISK.

Maybe if CCP were capable of "balancing" the income then I'd be OK with slightly nerfing level4s. But not as long as we have Zulupark Devs. If they ever start then we'll be lucky if they don't delete all stations in highsec not to mention income of missions.

Edit2:
Also:

Quote:
Probing out a site (1 person, 30 mins)

But wait! "Probing out a site" doesn't take 30 mins. It can take anywhere from 10 mins to 5 hours and is dependant on luck alone.
Quote:
3 people running 2 sites (1.5 hour x3)

But wait! A bunch of pirates just warped in on one of your three guys and ganked and podded them. You just lost anywhere between 100mil and 2bil ISK.
Quote:
bringing stuff back to jita, 1 person 1 hour.

But wait! That bubble camp on the route to jita needs to be scouted and unluckily you were still tackled in your hauler and got popped. Now you not only lost 10mil for the ship but also just lost all your income for the last 5-15 hours. And your scout still wants to be paid (or you need RL cash or ISK to pay for your second account).

I think your calculation is totally removed from reality... Come to think of it thats probably exactly the way CCP design their new features in the first place... they assume we all play in the "ideal world". If we did then the design might be ok... just sucks that we don't play there, huh?

Also another thing about your theory on super-lucrative W-space: If you're already in an established alliance or corp thats claiming Sov, securing space, got a JB network and intel channel etc. then you may be right that the risk level can be minimized. However, if you start factoring in the cost of claiming space (and holding it) and the amount of time involved in running/maintaining an alliance then you're 100mil an hour would actually go down to 10mil an hour. It's just that you don't have to pay for it (directly) so you think that these things are all free and "anyone" could do it. This is totally untrue. Of course anyone can do anything - it's just a question of amount of effort, risk and reward. And here W-space seems to fail imo. Or why else do t3 ships still cost more then 3 carriers after two months?

chrisss0r
The Lowbirds
Posted - 2009.06.03 14:44:00 - [341]
 

crying about risk vs reward and then crying that the highest rewarding activities are risky.

you guys seriously need your brains checked

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2009.06.03 15:12:00 - [342]
 

Originally by: chrisss0r
crying about risk vs reward and then crying that the highest rewarding activities are risky.
you guys seriously need your brains checked

No, crying about the fact the highest reward and highest risk activities still aren't rewarding enough for the amount of risk AND teamwork effort required to ensure a reasonable portion of that income actually manages to reach your pockets - not rewarding enough that in comparison, most people prefer the no-risk, no-cooperation, no-timeconstraints moderate ISK income level of highsec L4s.
I know, I know, kind of hard to grasp the difference at first sight, but...

Soporo
Caldari
Posted - 2009.06.03 15:38:00 - [343]
 

Originally by: Chrysalis D'lilth
Edited by: Chrysalis D''lilth on 03/06/2009 10:51:57
Originally by: Akita T

stuff claiming he is the only person who knows what he's talking about....




Probing out a site (1 person, 30 mins)
3 people running 2 sites (1.5 hour x3)
bringing stuff back to jita, 1 person 1 hour.

total time? 6 hours

isk gained? over 1.3-1.5 billion (thats before invention/manufacture which will net you more).

more than 200m/hour.

Factor in some slippage, some bad luck, bathroom breaks, dinner, phone calls, watching your favorite tv program and you still make more than 100m/hour

Akita, write as much as you like but you've done nothing but troll. Just because you don't make this isk doesn't mean people aren't being quite successful in WH space. None of this will change the fact that your wrong in your premise.




This is pretty accurate.

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Probing out a site (1 person, 30 mins)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
But wait! "Probing out a site" doesn't take 30 mins. It can take anywhere from 10 mins to 5 hours and is dependant on luck alone.


Bs. If it were "luck alone" then I'd be able to probe one out as fast as our best prober, which I can't (I need more practice). An hour tops before finding one.
You fail as a troll and prove you don't know wtf you're talking about because the largest time sink involved will probably be scanning down and bm'ing all the sites inside the WH, not finding the WH itself most likely.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3 people running 2 sites (1.5 hour x3)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
But wait! A bunch of pirates just warped in on one of your three guys and ganked and podded them. You just lost anywhere between 100mil and 2bil ISK


Then you fail and have no buisness being in there. Assign a dedicated scanner and/or cloaky guy at the WH's entrances.
We've done 10 (together) and havent lost a ship yet, and we are just a small gang. Not being a dumbass in what amounts to potentially hostile 0.0 space can be achieved by anyone.

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
bringing stuff back to jita, 1 person 1 hour.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Quote:
But wait! That bubble camp on the route to jita needs to be scouted and unluckily you were still tackled in your hauler and got popped. Now you not only lost 10mil for the ship but also just lost all your income for the last 5-15 hours. And your scout still wants to be paid (or you need RL cash or ISK to pay for your second account).


Fail.
If you have a wad of expensive loot you don't put it in a freekin Badger, particularly unscouted, particularly in Lo or no-sec. A Cov-Ops scout plus Blockade Runner will get you anywhere in EVE. Also, ever heard of JF's? If you live that far out then people will stockpile then use them or carriers.

WH space > Exploration Plexing> 0.0 Ratting > Missions in order of general lucrativeness.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2009.06.04 07:12:00 - [344]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 04/06/2009 07:28:38
Originally by: Soporo
Not being a dumbass in what amounts to potentially hostile 0.0 space can be achieved by anyone.

You mean, any group of reasonable size, composed of at least one cloaking prober who needs to stay out of the actual fights and just feed you site data and enemy warnings (maybe double as can opener), at least one hauler to get all the loot (maybe also double as can opener), and then on top of everything else, several combat-fit ships to deal with the sleepers (the number required being dependant on the tier of wormhole found).
Originally by: Soporo
the largest time sink involved will probably be scanning down and bm'ing all the sites inside the WH, not finding the WH itself most likely.

Right... because stable enough wormholes into your prefered wormhole tier are so easy to find exactly where you reside or a couple of jumps away, especially if you usually reside in highsec, and nobody else ever got to the wormhole in question first and picked out the "good" sites leaving you with pointless asteroid sites mostly...
Oh, you mean you DON'T talk about people in smallish corps that reside in highsec and do that, but rather a group of aquaintances inside a larger 0.0-holding alliance ? Yeah, well, that would make a lot more sense then, sure... but then we're back at the "other" issue.
__

Well, anyway - IF it would be so easy and so safe and so rewarding as you claim it would be, we'd be seeing a different situation in T3 prices (oh, and by the way, that would automatically mean a heavy lowering of w-space potential revenue, so it's on a pretty heavy negative feedback loop).

At the current prices (they're relatively stable for most components except the "bottlenecks"), I have no big trouble believing the rewards... but your assessment of safety is shaky at best, especially for the type of people you'd WANT to have leaving their current activities and joining w-space exploitation.

Also, you are trivializing the amount of effort required - sometimes, even getting just three different people together to run L5 missions is hard enough (especially if you make the mistake of desiring a logistics pilot that's not somebody's alt), being a member of a large enough group that you have no big problems assembling a team of 4-5 or maybe more people online for _several_ hours without logoffs is a challenge a lot of EVE players would find near impossible to solve, except maybe in the weekends. No idea about your age and your real-life schedule, but I must remind you that the average age of EVE players is (or, at least, WAS) closer to 30, which usually means a job and the corresponding working hours, maybe even a family that can't be put on hold for 3-4 hours at a time so easily... and so on and so forth.

People almost always forget this last part.
Yes, it is one very important factor in the "profitability" equation : the ability to do the activity at all in the first place.
Out-of-game influences like screaming kids or screaming bosses (not like there's much of a difference) are just as important as lack of skills or lack of ship fittings.

baltec1
Posted - 2009.06.04 08:09:00 - [345]
 

Akita did it ever cross your mind that the people who are telling you your wrong might actualy be right?

I have only been in WH space a few times but each time was very profitable. It just requires a bit of effort and friends which if your in a good corp/allience will come easily no matter the numbers in it. I realy am having difficulty seeing your side of this arguement when my experience is so very different to yours.


Tzar'rim
Posted - 2009.06.04 08:23:00 - [346]
 

Originally by: baltec1
Akita did it ever cross your mind that the people who are telling you your wrong might actualy be right?

I have only been in WH space a few times but each time was very profitable. It just requires a bit of effort and friends which if your in a good corp/allience will come easily no matter the numbers in it. I realy am having difficulty seeing your side of this arguement when my experience is so very different to yours.




I bolded the important part. You are right ofcourse but the ISSUE is that missions require no team, no interaction, no braincells and no effort yet they STILL make a whole lot of cash. An MMO (and certainly not EVE) shouldn't advocate solo, non-effort [email protected] proof gameplay. While you can ofcourse agree to disagree on the amount of cash the it earns, the simple fact is that mission running is out of control as it's the failsafe, sure way to make cash without needing effort.

The proof is in the pudding, so to speak.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2009.06.04 08:29:00 - [347]
 

Originally by: baltec1
Akita did it ever cross your mind that the people who are telling you your wrong might actualy be right?

All possibilities constantly cross my mind, and I have even conceeded some of their points, if you have noticed.

Quote:
I have only been in WH space a few times but each time was very profitable. It just requires a bit of effort and friends which if your in a good corp/allience will come easily no matter the numbers in it. I realy am having difficulty seeing your side of this arguement when my experience is so very different to yours.

Ah, see ? It "JUST" requires a bit of effort (time) and friends and so on and so forth.
Let's see why exactly would you be unable to see my side of the argument... how old are you (just age group, highschool/student/college graduate), where do you live (with parents / in a dorm room / renting a place all alone or with friends / head of your own family in your own house) and how much free time do you usually have (unemployed / just some school work and no job / an easy job with flexible hours / regular job where you maybe can login occasionally / annoying job with long hours / both school and an annoying job) ? How many hours a month do you spend inside EVE, and how often do you login ? How many people in your corp and/or alliance are usually online and in your general location ? And so on and so forth...

baltec1
Posted - 2009.06.04 08:36:00 - [348]
 

Originally by: Tzar'rim

I bolded the important part. You are right ofcourse but the ISSUE is that missions require no team, no interaction, no braincells and no effort yet they STILL make a whole lot of cash. An MMO (and certainly not EVE) shouldn't advocate solo, non-effort [email protected] proof gameplay. While you can ofcourse agree to disagree on the amount of cash the it earns, the simple fact is that mission running is out of control as it's the failsafe, sure way to make cash without needing effort.

The proof is in the pudding, so to speak.




To be honest there isnt much to do about this. Nerf high sec level 4s and boost the ones in low sec wont make people move to them. All the people in high sec will still do them. Removing them will cause a **** storm and still they wont go into low sec while at the same time crippling my current means of funding my pvp shipsugh

However there are ways in this game to bring the pain to these risk adverce mission runners although it too requires forward planning. I know of someone who made billions each month just by blowing mission bears out of the sky in high sec.

Also lets not forget that the real money in high sec is in exploring and the markets.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2009.06.04 08:39:00 - [349]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 04/06/2009 08:43:12
Originally by: baltec1
Nerf high sec level 4s and boost the ones in low sec wont make people move to them.

You don't even need to nerf highsec ones, just boost the lowsec ones... and people WILL move to them, if history is any indication of it (you haven't been playing 2+ years ago, have you ? or if you have, you haven't been paying any attention to lowsec back then, I presume?)
As for the rest of the things (NPC 0.0, w-space, etc), the answer is the same : just boost revenue high enough until (some/enough of) the risk-adverse people start to flock there... then the ratio of predator:prey gets better in favor of the prey, and the risks actually start diminishing, and you have a favourable feedback/stabilizing loop going.

baltec1
Posted - 2009.06.04 08:42:00 - [350]
 

Edited by: baltec1 on 04/06/2009 08:52:52
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: baltec1
Akita did it ever cross your mind that the people who are telling you your wrong might actualy be right?

All possibilities constantly cross my mind, and I have even conceeded some of their points, if you have noticed.

Quote:
I have only been in WH space a few times but each time was very profitable. It just requires a bit of effort and friends which if your in a good corp/allience will come easily no matter the numbers in it. I realy am having difficulty seeing your side of this arguement when my experience is so very different to yours.

Ah, see ? It "JUST" requires a bit of effort (time) and friends and so on and so forth.
Let's see why exactly would you be unable to see my side of the argument... how old are you (just age group, highschool/student/college graduate), where do you live (with parents / in a dorm room / renting a place all alone or with friends / head of your own family in your own house) and how much free time do you usually have (unemployed / just some school work and no job / an easy job with flexible hours / regular job where you maybe can login occasionally / annoying job with long hours / both school and an annoying job) ? How many hours a month do you spend inside EVE, and how often do you login ? How many people in your corp and/or alliance are usually online and in your general location ? And so on and so forth...



I am a trained bouncer who works 12 hour night shifts and I am lucky to get 4 hours of free time over the weekend let alone eve time. Yet dispite this I can get a few people together to go do something in eve be it a suicide gank, low sec run or 0.0 fun.

This thing with lvl 4 high sec missions has gone on for as long as I have been playing. Im my experience, both with eve and other MMO's, nothing is going to get people who dont want to risk anything into low sec. If you realy dont like this then do what I am planning to. Blow them up in high sec, there are several ways to go about this and you will be suprised with the results which I might add, can be quite profitable.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2009.06.04 10:34:00 - [351]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 04/06/2009 10:49:56

Originally by: baltec1
This thing with lvl 4 high sec missions has gone on for as long as I have been playing. Im my experience, both with eve and other MMO's, nothing is going to get people who dont want to risk anything into low sec. If you realy dont like this then do what I am planning to. Blow them up in high sec, there are several ways to go about this and you will be suprised with the results which I might add, can be quite profitable.

The issue is not with lack of targets or ease of targets or anything like that any particular individual (be it carebear, pirate, gankbear, freelancer or anything else) would like more... the issue is with a lack of any efficiently enough auto-balancing system for rewards according to risk (the only MILD auto-balancing factor is the market, but that only manages to balance the proper pricetags according to the drop rules, NOT change the drop rules themselves), and the almost complete failure on CCP's part to do any manual balancing of risk/reward/effort/constraints levels appropriately, in order to enable a wider section of the population to participate in any other activities except those that are highsec-bound.

In the past, they (CCP) have repeatedly stated that their wish is to ATTRACT (attract, not force) a much larger percentage of people into other areas of the game than just highsec, that it's somewhat of a shame that a vast majority of people choose to spend their entire lives in a rather confined area of space... and w-space was at least to some degree allegedly one of those "alternatives", for highsec dwellers too, the ones that find it difficult to operate in lowsec or 0.0... but as you can see, it's not an ATRRACTIVE ENOUGH alternative for them, if anything, quite the opposite, the ones enjoying it most are the people that usually dwell in 0.0 or even lowsec.

Yes, to you, apparently, getting a team together is not a problem, even if you clam you're lucky to get 4 uninterrupted gameplay hours in the weekends. However, for most other casual players, that's exactly what the MAIN problem is. W-space is not something you can pick up and leave at any time with no ill effects, and if you want at least SOME of those people to start going there, you have to either offer DRASTICALLY improved rewards, even compared to what you have nowadays... or instead, you might have to make wormholes a bit more... reliable (at least those that lead out of or into highsec). What I mean by that is larger total mass (or even no total mass limit), just keep the max mass per ship... and increase the lifespan of used wormholes significantly, alongside a radical increase in low-level wildspace site spawn rates (the other thread about semi-settled systems barely getting any new sites being "an intended game mechanic" certainly didn't help their case).

Either way, you may say I am wrong and that w-space is profitable and that there's next to no risk, and that it's not hard to get there and all that jazz.
But simple observation completely contradicts what you are saying... or, rather, points out that the precise factors I mentioned here OUTSIDE of just "reward and risk" have a far larger influence that you apparently deem to be relevant.


P.S. See this too, from somebody who allegedly knows what he's talking about, if you claim I don't have enough personal experience.

chrisss0r
The Lowbirds
Posted - 2009.06.04 12:27:00 - [352]
 

Originally by: Tzar'rim
Originally by: baltec1
Akita did it ever cross your mind that the people who are telling you your wrong might actualy be right?

I have only been in WH space a few times but each time was very profitable. It just requires a bit of effort and friends which if your in a good corp/allience will come easily no matter the numbers in it. I realy am having difficulty seeing your side of this arguement when my experience is so very different to yours.




I bolded the important part. You are right ofcourse but the ISSUE is that missions require no team, no interaction, no braincells and no effort yet they STILL make a whole lot of cash. An MMO (and certainly not EVE) shouldn't advocate solo, non-effort [email protected] proof gameplay. While you can ofcourse agree to disagree on the amount of cash the it earns, the simple fact is that mission running is out of control as it's the failsafe, sure way to make cash without needing effort.

The proof is in the pudding, so to speak.


yeah so the ones using teamplay and doing risky activities get alot more iskies than the ones running missions. Sounds just about right to me.

I run missions in a marauder. My corp has a pos in wormhole space and the members running it make an assload of isk. Still i'm running missions during terms since i simply cannot be arsed to spend too much time coordination with others. because i dont wanna do that i get alot less isk. sounds just about right to me.

Alot about the argument here is due to people who read fantasy numbers like 50m+ per hour for running missions. And then whine cause their ratting in nullsec only yields them 30m per hour. of course the faction and officer spawns for some mystic reason "don't coun't" in the risk vs reward balance cause they are not certain (lol!)

Knopje
Posted - 2009.06.04 13:36:00 - [353]
 

I fully support Akita in this.

Faction Warfare should have Faction Loot as reward. See the two Factions there together?
Lvl4's should be profitable but why more profitable than mining? What possible excuse could anyone have for lvl 4's being more profitable? I have read the entire thread and other than "Waaaa I don't want my easy cash maker to be nerfed" I have seen absolutely no justification for the money that is made by running missions. What is the point of mining in 0 when you can be making just as much running missions?

CCP need to do something about this and I hope that the change they have in mind in regards to agents will bring that much needed change. I know it's a waste of time to hope but it's all we have.

P.S. Stop whining that you don't want your uber money maker to get nerfed. Making enough money to buying and fitting a faction ship with 14b worth in loot, just to run lvl 4's, is beyond ridiculous.

baltec1
Posted - 2009.06.04 13:39:00 - [354]
 

See your argument is comming across as:

I cannot be bothered to put in as much work as others but I want the cash they are earning.

WH space is fine and offers alot in rewards, all you need to do it get out and organise stuff yourself. Theres thousands of players in high sec at any given time, the chances that you cannot get a group of 4 or 5 people to team up and do stuff is very small unless you dont put in any effort on your part.

chrisss0r
The Lowbirds
Posted - 2009.06.04 14:03:00 - [355]
 

Originally by: baltec1
See your argument is comming across as:

I cannot be bothered to put in as much work as others but I want the cash they are earning.

WH space is fine and offers alot in rewards, all you need to do it get out and organise stuff yourself. Theres thousands of players in high sec at any given time, the chances that you cannot get a group of 4 or 5 people to team up and do stuff is very small unless you dont put in any effort on your part.


yeah except where i say that i'm perfectly comfortable with earning way less than my buddies in wh space. This directly leads to my check your brain suggestion.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2009.06.04 14:15:00 - [356]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 04/06/2009 14:24:26
Quote:
WH space is fine and offers alot in rewards, all you need to do it get out and organise stuff yourself. Theres thousands of players in high sec at any given time, the chances that you cannot get a group of 4 or 5 people to team up and do stuff is very small unless you dont put in any effort on your part.

And out of those thousands (actually, tens of thousands) of highsec players, how many CAN you trust to not just shoot you as soon as you get into w-space ?

Originally by: baltec1
See your argument is comming across as:
I cannot be bothered to put in as much work as others but I want the cash they are earning.

How you managed to get that from what I said so far is puzzling... no, quite the contrary.

My argument comes across as "increase the rewards, NOT JUST for the activities that carry extra risks, but also for those that need additional (team)work or have (harsher) time constraints so that more people (that normally wouldn't bother) will be tempted to join in those activities". Obviously, if some activity is not just riskier, but also needs significant teamwork and has serious time constraints, the potential rewards should be hugely higher, not just somewhat higher.
That would mean increasing the rewards of lowsec and 0.0 mission-running, rewards of lowsec and 0.0 mining and rewards of all levels of wormhole exploration, with an _optional_ reduction of access difficulty to w-space so that casual players could get a decent chance to visit them on a regular basis.
Or alternatively, if that (increasing rewards in concordance to not just potential risk, but also required teamwork and contiguous time needed) is not an option for some obscure reason, then REDUCE the rewards that can be obtained risk-and-contraints-free (namely, L4 highsec missions) to a level low enough that by comparison, the rest of activities become more attractive.

In simpler words :
either
* you say w-space is profitable, I say it's not profitable enough
or
* you say L4 highsec earn enough ISK, I say they earn way too much ISK

Drunk Driver
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2009.06.04 14:31:00 - [357]
 

Originally by: Drunk Driver


Risk adverse players will not venture into areas where they can be killed.


You can spew any argument you want and that fact will not change.







Too simple for some to understand it would seem.


baltec1
Posted - 2009.06.04 14:35:00 - [358]
 

Originally by: Akita T

In simpler words :
either
* you say w-space is profitable, I say it's not profitable enough
or
* you say L4 highsec earn enough ISK, I say they earn way too much ISK



WH space/0.0/low sec already offeres way more than you can earn in a high sec level 4, there is no need to boost rewards.

Originally by: Akita T

And out of those thousands (actually, tens of thousands) of highsec players, how many CAN you trust to not just shoot you as soon as you get into w-space ?



Take the risk. That is how corps/alliences are formed and friends made. People didnt seem to worry about trusting my nub alt to collect their level 4 salvage/loot, sell it and distribute the isk evenly. I even joined an enemy fleet in 0.0 to help take down a carrier neither of us liked. If you never take the risk then you are going to miss out on alot in this game.

Empress Norton
Posted - 2009.06.04 14:43:00 - [359]
 

Originally by: Akita T

Originally by: Intense Thinker
Player numbers steadily rising so they must be doing something right, why mess with success?

Why waste a lot of dev time on stuff a vast minority of the playerbase uses ?
Why not have a higher rate of climb on subscription numbers ?
What's the point in doubling your operating expenses if you only increase your income by 50% ?
...and so on.



I dont care about your thread and neither does CCP but I did want to comment on this..

you seriously believe that making the game more difficult to get into for new, average players is going to result in more new players?

seriously?

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2009.06.04 14:55:00 - [360]
 

Originally by: Drunk Driver
Risk adverse players will not venture into areas where they can be killed.
You can spew any argument you want and that fact will not change.
Too simple for some to understand it would seem.

Not too simple, just simply wrong.

At a certain reward level (depending on the person), ANYBODY, even the most carebear of carebears would risk something.
Since every person has a different level of risk/effort they're willing to commit to given a certain reward, slowly increasing rewards will slowly increase the percentage of people engaged in that activity, no matter what that activity is.
If too few people do something, it's either because the activity is too risky, requires too much time or is not profitable enough (or a combination of those factors).
Ramp up lowsec mission-running income too much, to some downright absurd levels, and lowsec will be FLOODED by mission-runners, in spite of the pirates.

Originally by: Empress Norton
you seriously believe that making the game more difficult to get into for new, average players is going to result in more new players?

Who said anything about making the game more difficult to get into ?
Oh, you mean, ONE of the two alternatives (the least desirable, the one I advise against, the one I say it should only be used as a last resort) presented where I suggest a decrease in mission-running income ?

Originally by: baltec1
WH space/0.0/low sec already offeres way more than you can earn in a high sec level 4, there is no need to boost rewards.

Reality contradicts your statement. If w-space/0.0/lowsec would offer ENOUGH additional rewards (in light of the effort/work/time required) compared to L4 highsec missions, we'd see far more people doing it.
Also, see answer to the first quote of this reply.


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