| Author |
Topic |
Heartstone
Aliastra
|
Posted - 2009.06.02 18:23:00 - [ 91]
Edited by: Heartstone on 02/06/2009 18:23:34
Oh yes indeed. Supported
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Traidor Disloyal
Private Nuisance
Segregati0n
|
Posted - 2009.06.02 18:30:00 - [ 92]
I agree with The PitBoss. |
Oam Mkoll
Caldari
Stealth Squad
|
Posted - 2009.06.02 20:37:00 - [ 93]
Oh god yes! Supported! |
Tortugan
Internal Anarchy
WE FORM VOLTRON |
Posted - 2009.06.04 02:10:00 - [ 94]
TO THOSE SUPPORTING:
Please read and consider some of the criticisms of this proposal before blindly giving your support. (see page 2 & 3)
Yes- neutral rep is annoying and surprising, but how is it any more effective than in-corp repping? The reason that it's more frustrating is because of the element of surprise- if you had a gang of 6 versus a gang of 7 war targets, you might not engage- but if only 2 wartargets are there, you're much more likely to engage, at which point they might use their RR. It's not like neutral reps add DPS to a fight- in fact, if it becomes clear someone is using neutral rep, the solution is to deaggress and bring enough firepower to kill the RR, or break it.
What makes Eve great is that it's about tactics, life or death decisions, and being as damned sneaky as possible. You need to come up with your own counter to RR- if you don't have the firepower to break it, bring a falcon with racials for their RR ships- it's not that hard.
What this proposal does is evens the playing field, making a small, experienced RR gang only as effective as a small, experienced non-RR gang.
If you like blob warfare, go join GoonSwarm. If you have any sort of appreciation for tactics beyond just calling targets, reconsider what this will do to small gang warfare. |
Tortugan
Internal Anarchy
WE FORM VOLTRON |
Posted - 2009.06.04 02:16:00 - [ 95]
 Originally by: Erik Finnegan
Supported!
You enter in a fight: you are not neutral anymore. We need to start doing something about the neutrals who take sides.
Doing it repeatedly...would that not usually involve that party into the war, if there is a war going on ? Just one thought to making war decs more dynamic and uncontrollable (both for the aggressor as for the aggressed).
And is there not also an improvement potential with "neutral" trafficker alliance war support out of high-sec ? That one is more tricky so solve, though. I will suggest something in another thread later.
Clarification: Remote Repping anyone will share ALL of their aggro with you. If A is at war with B, and C remote reps B, A may immediately shoot C. Likewise, if X steals from Y's can, and Z remote reps X, Y may immediately shoot Z. |
Amasai
Starfire Oasis
Thalion Syndicate |
Posted - 2009.06.04 05:24:00 - [ 96]
2 thumbs down, no thanks
being able to shoot the RR is enough.
|
NickSuccorso
Burning Napalm
Northern Coalition. |
Posted - 2009.06.04 05:58:00 - [ 97]
Originally by: Tortugan
TO THOSE SUPPORTING:
words
Surely you agree that there's something wrong with the idea that someone can have such a large affect on the fight simply because they are a neutral party. I Actually agree with a lot of your points, but it feels a little outweighed by the idea that I can warp my logi alt to a nice spot at 0 on a station and basically turn the tide of a fight, and the only risk to me is forgetting to tab to that alt if it takes fire. Thinking about it now, I don't like the idea that this would add an aggro timer, since in corp logistics that stick close to his gang/wingman in a fight (fight on a gate with the logi in jump range so he can come in and out) are basically ****ed then. Maybe the logi simply needs to do his best to get a new position or have the defence focused on him while he moves around. I dunno. Can we come up with a way to meet somewhere in the middle on this? Maybe there's a way to set up some sort of timer on someone who is out of corp/alliance? |
The Jackhammer
Minmatar
MunsterMunch
Hydroponic Zone |
Posted - 2009.06.04 16:03:00 - [ 98]
|
Tortugan
Internal Anarchy
WE FORM VOLTRON |
Posted - 2009.06.05 00:17:00 - [ 99]
Originally by: NickSuccorso
Originally by: Tortugan
TO THOSE SUPPORTING:
words
Surely you agree that there's something wrong with the idea that someone can have such a large affect on the fight simply because they are a neutral party. I Actually agree with a lot of your points, but it feels a little outweighed by the idea that I can warp my logi alt to a nice spot at 0 on a station and basically turn the tide of a fight, and the only risk to me is forgetting to tab to that alt if it takes fire. Thinking about it now, I don't like the idea that this would add an aggro timer, since in corp logistics that stick close to his gang/wingman in a fight (fight on a gate with the logi in jump range so he can come in and out) are basically ****ed then. Maybe the logi simply needs to do his best to get a new position or have the defence focused on him while he moves around. I dunno.
Can we come up with a way to meet somewhere in the middle on this? Maybe there's a way to set up some sort of timer on someone who is out of corp/alliance?
Thing is, as soon as a neutral has remote repped, they become a part of the fight- once they've started repping, they're in the exact same position as if they had been remote-repping in corp- the ONLY differences between in and out of corp repping are the element of surprise, and that the aggro only lasts for 15 minutes. The solution to the problem that you're talking about would be to only allow people to remote rep corp/alliance mates- no more neutral reps-- but that would do nothing more than ruin a perfectly valid tactic imo. |
Tortugan
Internal Anarchy
WE FORM VOLTRON |
Posted - 2009.06.05 00:27:00 - [ 100]
|
The Jackhammer
Minmatar
MunsterMunch
Hydroponic Zone |
Posted - 2009.06.05 00:51:00 - [ 101]
Edited by: The Jackhammer on 05/06/2009 00:52:51 Originally by: Tortugan
And yet, you still haven't clarified as to why neutral rep shouldn't be a valid tactic. Frustrating when it's used against you, sure- but unfair? Everyone has the same opportunity to use neutral reps, so what makes it wrong?
What makes it wrong is that a toon can intervene and sway the tide of a battle and dock up or jump through a gate anytime they get aggressed (shot at) for helping out. Not having to wait the normal cool down period of 1 minute to dock up or activate the gate anyone else would that causes the loss of a ship. If you want to be part of the battle .. now you're being held accountable for 1 minute ... and run the risk of losing your ship ... as it stands now .. nothing less than a huge blob will assure that ... get rid of small gang pvp? You're crazy .. you're encouraging the BLOB ... |
Just fearless
Caldari
Phantom Squad
Atlas.
|
Posted - 2009.06.05 04:33:00 - [ 102]
|
Kaito Haakkainen |
Posted - 2009.06.05 13:11:00 - [ 103]
Originally by: Tortugan
TO THOSE SUPPORTING:
the solution is to deaggress and bring enough firepower to kill the RR, or break it.
[...]
If you like blob warfare, go join GoonSwarm. If you have any sort of appreciation for tactics beyond just calling targets, reconsider what this will do to small gang warfare.
Wut? |
Furb Killer
Gallente
|
Posted - 2009.06.05 14:49:00 - [ 104]
Edited by: Furb Killer on 05/06/2009 14:52:54
Maybe it is very hard for you to implement the 'tactic' that you put all your repper alts in an npc corp, but for everyone else it is just lame.
To follow your logic, lets change it that as soon as you fire on a wartarget, everyone is allowed to shoot you, doesnt matter if they are at war or not. So you can just have 30 people out of corp, you fire on one bait from the wartargets, and they all shoot you. Would be the same idea as we have now with logistics. |
Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group |
Posted - 2009.06.05 15:17:00 - [ 105]
Tortugan, the element of surprise only works once or twice; it is an aspect of alt fighting generally but not the most valuable aspect of neutral RR in empire. The most advantageous thing about it is you can deploy potentially infinite number of fight-turning ships directly onto the field without your opponent being able to do anything to them until they turn said fight, whereupon they can instantly dock/jump and then proceed to undock/jump back and do it again.
As to the counter tactics, yes they're out there and my corp has had to use them against REPO and you, among others. We've also refined and used tactics to kill logoffski freighters. Just because there's a work-around counter for game breaking mechanics doesnt mean those mechanics shouldn't be addressed.
If a corp/player feels they/he cant survive without third part help all the time, that's their problem. |
NickSuccorso
Burning Napalm
Northern Coalition. |
Posted - 2009.06.06 03:22:00 - [ 106]
Originally by: Tortugan
Thing is, as soon as a neutral has remote repped, they become a part of the fight- once they've started repping, they're in the exact same position as if they had been remote-repping in corp- the ONLY differences between in and out of corp repping are the element of surprise, and that the aggro only lasts for 15 minutes. The solution to the problem that you're talking about would be to only allow people to remote rep corp/alliance mates- no more neutral reps-- but that would do nothing more than ruin a perfectly valid tactic imo.
I actually somewhat agree with you, but much like the problem of neutral vultures stealing my hard won pvp loot, there is simply no way to make them pay for interfering in my fight in any meaningful way unless they are tremendously stupid or have a hardware failure. The balance is skewed too far in favour of the neutral repper. |
Harotak
Malicious Destruction
|
Posted - 2009.06.06 11:29:00 - [ 107]
Edited by: Harotak on 06/06/2009 11:31:54
This proposal should have NOTHING to do with neutral RR'ing. It just should be a proposal to give a 60 second aggression "can't dock or jump" timer to anyone who uses any form of remote-assistance.
I don't care if the repairer is in the same corp or not, he shouldn't be able to dock once he starts to get shot at and then undock and start repairing again.
Furthermore, I would propose that you receive killrights on any neutral who renders remote assistance to someone you are fighting so that you have 30 days to attack them at will. |
Tortugan
Internal Anarchy
WE FORM VOLTRON |
Posted - 2009.06.07 10:46:00 - [ 108]
@ Supporters-
So what if this change is made? You'll just see more cautious logistics alts, and more plated BS RRing- rather than docking up, logi's will warp to an off grid, then back to a different safe far enough away from any tackles that he'd reps a couple cycles before moving again. That, or you'll just see blobs of 10 logistics alts repping each other so nobody has to dock or warp off.
This proposal would not fix what you perceive to be the problem- it would encourage more of it. |
The PitBoss
Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers
The 0rphanage |
Posted - 2009.06.07 13:22:00 - [ 109]
Edited by: The PitBoss on 07/06/2009 13:29:30 Originally by: Tortugan
@ Supporters- ...yap yap yap...
Classic neutral remote rep abuser ... cheap kills ... in his own words Originally by: Tortugan
Not quite- 3 volleyed the incursus, and their Domi starting shooting at me (he was the only one who still had aggro iirc). Got some remote reps on me till I could re-dock :)
Taken from their own KB: HERENow its obvious WHY you basically have a problem with any look at this issue ... its been noted ... please move on  |
Suzanne Blue
|
Posted - 2009.06.07 16:58:00 - [ 110]
Supporting this untill CCP removes ALT's al together. |
Dierdra Vaal
Caldari
Veto.
Veto Corp |
Posted - 2009.06.07 17:34:00 - [ 111]
this issue was just unanimously passed and will be brought to the CSM/CCP meeting in iceland :) |
The PitBoss
Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers
The 0rphanage |
Posted - 2009.06.07 18:03:00 - [ 112]
Originally by: Dierdra Vaal
this issue was just unanimously passed and will be brought to the CSM/CCP meeting in iceland :)
AWESOME ... thanks CSM |
Uhr Zylex
Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers
The 0rphanage |
Posted - 2009.06.07 18:17:00 - [ 113]
supported |
Uagen
Cow Boys From HeII
Honourable Templum of Alcedonia
|
Posted - 2009.06.07 19:12:00 - [ 114]
Originally by: Harotak
Edited by: Harotak on 06/06/2009 11:31:54
This proposal should have NOTHING to do with neutral RR'ing. It just should be a proposal to give a 60 second aggression "can't dock or jump" timer to anyone who uses any form of remote-assistance.
I don't care if the repairer is in the same corp or not, he shouldn't be able to dock once he starts to get shot at and then undock and start repairing again.
Furthermore, I would propose that you receive killrights on any neutral who renders remote assistance to someone you are fighting so that you have 30 days to attack them at will.
Supported |
Tortugan
Internal Anarchy
WE FORM VOLTRON |
Posted - 2009.06.07 23:12:00 - [ 115]
|
Cissenei |
Posted - 2009.06.07 23:37:00 - [ 116]
Originally by: Dierdra Vaal
this issue was just unanimously passed and will be brought to the CSM/CCP meeting in iceland :)
Yay CSM! I knew voting for you was a good idea! :) |
Silas Fiat
Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers
The 0rphanage |
Posted - 2009.06.08 01:52:00 - [ 117]
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Captian Conrad
Minmatar
Empyrean Warriors
|
Posted - 2009.06.08 03:16:00 - [ 118]
|
NickSuccorso
Burning Napalm
Northern Coalition. |
Posted - 2009.06.08 05:21:00 - [ 119]
Quote:
You'll just see more cautious logistics alts, and more plated BS RRing- rather than docking up, logi's will warp to an off grid, then back to a different safe far enough away from any tackles that he'd reps a couple cycles before moving again.
There's nothing wrong with making non aggressed logistic characters work a little harder for it. Also, we already see everyone using plated RR BS, and if we start to see blobs of 10 Logistic Cruisers, then I applaud the people who put that together. They came prepared. I doubt we'll be seeing that with any regularlity, however. |
Tortugan
Internal Anarchy
WE FORM VOLTRON |
Posted - 2009.06.08 08:21:00 - [ 120]
Originally by: NickSuccorso
Quote:
You'll just see more cautious logistics alts, and more plated BS RRing- rather than docking up, logi's will warp to an off grid, then back to a different safe far enough away from any tackles that he'd reps a couple cycles before moving again.
There's nothing wrong with making non aggressed logistic characters work a little harder for it. Also, we already see everyone using plated RR BS, and if we start to see blobs of 10 Logistic Cruisers, then I applaud the people who put that together. They came prepared. I doubt we'll be seeing that with any regularlity, however.
Fair enough. Just as long as we don't hear complaints about it later. |
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