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Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2009.05.20 12:19:00 - [61]
 

Edited by: Rodj Blake on 20/05/2009 12:33:31
Edited by: Rodj Blake on 20/05/2009 12:21:52
Edited by: Rodj Blake on 20/05/2009 12:20:35

Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Quote:

I prefer to to liken the TLF to a band of no-hope dead-enders who hate the Empire for its success in civilising a large chunk of the cluster, but that's the beauty of RP



"Civilising" what?

If aggressively submitting and enslaving other populations is "civilising", how comes that slavery IRL is seen as a very negative thing of a bloody past to be forgotten?


Well, I did say I was RPing, and that sort of attitude wouldn't have been out of place when slavery was alive and kicking ("The White Man's Burden", for example) Very Happy

Just as Jade RPs someone who sees themselves as a freedom fighter, I RP someone who sees himself as fighting for law and order, God, and the advancement of civilsation. It may surprise you to learn that I don't neccessarily hold identical views to my character.

The thing is, people who do evil seldom see those things as evil and will use all means neccessary to justify them to themselves and others. RL wars of aggression and acts of genocide are often justified as being for the greater good or for the good of the victims ("We're invading to spread democracy", or "we had to destroy the village in order to save it").

Whilst it's fair to say that slavery is evil, it wouldn't be very realistic if all Amarrian slavers went around cackling manically like pantomime villains and telling everyone that they're evil.



T 2
Minmatar
Tribal Core
Posted - 2009.05.20 12:40:00 - [62]
 

Edited by: T 2 on 20/05/2009 12:45:24
I'll just skip the drama and the bashing of individuals here - if that is ok with everyone.. Rolling Eyes

Originally by: Fool jibberjabber
Just interested in the state of the Amarr vs Matari FW.. we see lots of well documented reports on here regarding Federation (notably Wolfy's adventures) and Caldari (Pervs still have the best corp name ever), but nothig on the 'other' fight.

Any opinions?


State of Amarr vs Matari FW. In order to understand the present you should understand the history of how it all has come to this. But writing the history of Amarr vs. Matari Fw.. It would take a few days and would be a real wall-of-text.

I'll write a quick and dirty review on how things are looking on the Matari side.

Internal issues
This is a real epic drama stuff. I actually changed minmatar militia website logo due to all the drama going on there. It feels really like we are in a MILITIA with different tribes going at each other internally. This drama and strong opinions on some issues have broken the militia a bit. Some fleet are broken in mid flight due to these issues. However - we strive forward.

InternetSpaceShips and fighting the Amarr
As for support from the Minmatar minded alliances. Some Amarr seem to claim that we get a lot of support. I'd like to say that too - however the support is somewhat minimal. U'K has its own agenda against CVA in nulsec and I have not seen any U'K pilots in FW space since I got involved. E'M has a fund for plexing that gives out some isk every week to the corp that did the most Victory Points. Star Fraction has been the most present in the FW zone - they actually get their hands dirty and kick Amarr every day.

We are very grateful for E'M and SF for their support - keep it coming - we need it!

One of the biggest problems - and I'm sure its the same with the other factions too - is the lack of FC's. Should we have more FC's -> the fun would be exponential.

Solar System control
I'd say that due to the role playing majority in amarr militia, namely PIE - they do get more victory points and more plexes. This is a problem within the Minmatar Militia. We do not have enough people that realize that by doing plexes - there is a good opportunity for some good PvP action.

This and the fact that the plexing spawning system was bugged for a long time so PIE and amarr managed to capture majority of plexes right after downtime for 3-4 months has lead to the situation that Matari is fighting hard to keep their systems. Lately we have had some success in this department and we are slowly starting to get some more plexes and perhaps in the future entire solar systems :-)

Summary
CVA support gives and edge for Amarr in BS / capital fights and it results in Amarr being the "superpower" and Minnies are the small and fast rebels that keep on fighting.

All in all a tight fight with fleet PvP fights and plexing is also pretty close - no real overrunning on either side atm.

Hopefully this actually answers the original question.

Best Regards,
T 2, co-ceo of Tribal Core

EDIT: Forgot to mention the spies. I have not heard a single peace of "spy" intel about Amarr flee movements - all the intel we have had has been actual ships in space following them (not alts!!). Making alts to spy on anyone is pathetic IMHO.

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2009.05.20 14:33:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: BattleStar Crusader

And Who are you jade??? chest beating, role playing on the forums is one thing, but to say that (note above) and then continue to thrash out long winded excuses and not so whittey retorts and still not be part of this war, and part of anything in general. Well i think that rests the case. Goodbye jade


Well it might surprise you to realise that I actually care 100x more what our allies in the warzone think our participation and involvement actually is than what our enemies might try to claim it is. We'll continue to use IC venues to roleplay this conflict and all the weapons at our disposal to aid the Minmatar cause. I think you might enjoy it more if you didn't let it get so personal. At one level we're all just gamers enjoying a good old space war. Don't get bitter - just rig up another ship and cherish the challenge!


Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2009.05.20 14:46:00 - [64]
 

Edited by: Jade Constantine on 20/05/2009 14:46:43

Originally by: Rodj Blake

Regarding the 24th Crusade having a numbers advantage, we currently have 2736 pilots compared to the Minmatar militia's 3192. Of course, if you're suggesting that each of ours is worth two of theirs, then you might have a point!


Well lets be honest about it. The Minmatar side has had a huge problem with internal drama and pirate corps feuding in and out of its colours and this has led to many fleets being used for personal agendas not the pursuit of the common war aims. This has a massive impact on actual numbers in the warzone. I'll also say here on this ooc forum that I think the Amarrian fleets are effective for purpose and generally suggest better synergy and organization (which isn't a surprise given the superior unity of the Amarrian bloc). For all my in-character derision for the light frigate gangs the 24th crusade use they are effective in getting kills against the Minmatar and they do limit interdiction ability.

On general assessments of numbers I don't really care what the bulk numbers say - I see this conflict in space every night - I follow the killboards and large engagements and I'll say currently in my estimation the Amarrians have far bigger participation in the large fleets at specific musters and more reliable participation in the after downtime plex bonanza and euro tz light gangs. Still just because its this way now doesn't mean it has to stay this way in the future. Eve is there to be won :)

Quote:
As for spies, it's not as one sided as you make out. We've discovered a few undercover Minnies in our time and our militia channel is still considered to be the last place to post fleet movements. I'd like to take this opportunity to re-affirm PIE's adversion to using alt spies and state that we will not have anyone in our ranks who uses them. Since when did SF become so anti-spy, anyway?


We really aren't. But its not a priority either. Reality is theres nothing that a spy could find out about 24th Crusade movements that we couldn't (and indeed do) ourselves discover by shadowing fleets with scouts. SF is certainly not adverse to infiltration if it helps - but in this warzone it literally doesn't.

The impact of spying to the Militias though is more through paranoia and provoking rage and frustration. I've seen several Minmatar fleets disrupted by the Amarrian's reposting fleet commands gathered through their alts in the mini fleets in local. Virtually impossible to stop the spies joining the fleets if you have open joining from the militia npc corp of course. And as I said largely irrelevant operationally.

But - it does cause massive disruption to junior or first time FC's to know their commands are relayed instantly to the enemy and then boasted about in local. Its psyops and mental propaganda and designed to spread fear and distrust and sap the will to fight.

I'm not going to judge the tactic either way since on one level I even admire it from its cruel efficiency - but it would be wrong for you to conclude this kind of thing doesn't have a huge impact on the ability for inexperienced FC's to get the confidence to engage and deploy their forces.

Quote:
Finally, I think you over-estimate the CVA's impact on the war. Whilst a few of us do have long-standing agreements with them, most of the militia corps do not, and battlefield assistance from them is the exception rather than the rule.


Not at all. The CVA's impact is that any time any enemy of the 24th Crusade deploys dreadnaughts there is a huge threat of a counter drop. Any time carriers are used we're on the clock for CVA intervention. And time a large fleet battle happens in prime time we are all alert for CVA cynos. These are massive factors and really can't be overestimated. Nobody is complaining about this - its war. But it would be completely wrong to write-off the tactical impact.





Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2009.05.20 14:55:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: crockett EXE

Yes, this I can agree with. It's why I hope there is a way to keep the null sec alliances out and to keep their impact at a min. FW from what I've seen is a ISK sink, but it can still be done on the cheap side to an extent as it is now.


I think you are a bit misled here really particularly in this conflict. CVA IS already involved. The current barring of alliances is primarily hurting the Ushra'khan and Electus Matari who are prevented from deploying conventional forces in the warzone that they would dearly love to.

And on the capital ships - well one thing that carriers do is give a smaller force the chance to engage against the numbers and be competitive. Many times SF (for example) has undocked 2-3 carriers to fight against a 50 man "blob" and gone on to skirmish for hours. Its a force multiplier that would otherwise simply not exist.

I've watched the TLF deploy a carrier onto a contested major and turn the fight from an Amarrian walkover to a hard fought Minmatar victory.

Its one of those beautiful things about eve - watching a friendly cyno go up and seeing a cap ship come through with logistics support and waves of fighters raises the stakes and changes the dynamic. I find it all very Battlestar Galactica and dramatic and I absolutely love helping outnumbered Minmatar Ruptures win fights they would otherwise have lost with direct logistics support from the capital remote reps Cool

Ultimately I don't forsee faction warfare would ever turn into the 0.0 cap blobs though because there simply isn't enough money in it. Organizations prepared to deploy multi billions of capital ships in hazardous situations for pure roleplay or grudge are relatively few. SF deploy caps because we're playing outnumbered and often outgunned freedom fighters that hate leaving the field to superior numbers. CVA deploy cap ships because they'd cross the universe for a chance to kill SF cap ships :)

But beyond these feuds there aren't that many rare moons of importance to faction warfare and lowsec is a far more dangerous environment than 0.0 for typical cap ship engagements.


me bored
Posted - 2009.05.20 16:37:00 - [66]
 

Edited by: me bored on 20/05/2009 16:39:18
Are there any greasemonkey scripts floating around that allow you to filter out the posts of certain players on the eve-o forums? I know there are ones like that for phpbb.

BattleStar Crusader
Amarr
Absinthe Brothers
Posted - 2009.05.20 18:22:00 - [67]
 

Hats off to you jade, your last two posts were really good, and an interesting read. its a better side of you.

Mitch Taylor
Dark-Rising
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2009.05.20 18:44:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: Booby Trap
Minmatar shouldn't get too excited by the arrival of dark rising. As soon as they lost a few fleet fights against caldari they left the gallents claiming to be bored. How long before they have recruited all the minmatar pvpers and leave them too.


were being picked on in three different forums at once... halp!

crockett EXE
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2009.05.20 19:21:00 - [69]
 

Edited by: crockett EXE on 20/05/2009 19:22:30
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: crockett EXE

Yes, this I can agree with. It's why I hope there is a way to keep the null sec alliances out and to keep their impact at a min. FW from what I've seen is a ISK sink, but it can still be done on the cheap side to an extent as it is now.


I think you are a bit misled here really particularly in this conflict. CVA IS already involved. The current barring of alliances is primarily hurting the Ushra'khan and Electus Matari who are prevented from deploying conventional forces in the warzone that they would dearly love to.

And on the capital ships - well one thing that carriers do is give a smaller force the chance to engage against the numbers and be competitive. Many times SF (for example) has undocked 2-3 carriers to fight against a 50 man "blob" and gone on to skirmish for hours. Its a force multiplier that would otherwise simply not exist.

I've watched the TLF deploy a carrier onto a contested major and turn the fight from an Amarrian walkover to a hard fought Minmatar victory.

Its one of those beautiful things about eve - watching a friendly cyno go up and seeing a cap ship come through with logistics support and waves of fighters raises the stakes and changes the dynamic. I find it all very Battlestar Galactica and dramatic and I absolutely love helping outnumbered Minmatar Ruptures win fights they would otherwise have lost with direct logistics support from the capital remote reps Cool

Ultimately I don't forsee faction warfare would ever turn into the 0.0 cap blobs though because there simply isn't enough money in it. Organizations prepared to deploy multi billions of capital ships in hazardous situations for pure roleplay or grudge are relatively few. SF deploy caps because we're playing outnumbered and often outgunned freedom fighters that hate leaving the field to superior numbers. CVA deploy cap ships because they'd cross the universe for a chance to kill SF cap ships :)

But beyond these feuds there aren't that many rare moons of importance to faction warfare and lowsec is a far more dangerous environment than 0.0 for typical cap ship engagements.




Yes I do understand they are already involved, but what I'm looking at is Minmatar are often way out numbered as it is, with the BS blobs. Sure maybe we can match the fleet size numbers at times, but most of the time they can out ship class us, if they can't they don't fight.

However what happens when or if CVA can start hot dropping 30 or 50 capitals into a fight anytime the Minatar get a good fleet going or at any imporant battle? Can you match that? I think things would become very stale fast and it would end up being blob warefare.

RedSplat
Posted - 2009.05.20 23:12:00 - [70]
 

If CVA drop 30 capitals in Lowsec surrounding Rens they would not be unopposed.

Grim Asse
Posted - 2009.05.21 13:10:00 - [71]
 

To sum up the history of Amarr vs Minmatar, it started with Minmatar steamrolling the Amarr Militia from day one.
Victory point requirements for taking systems were rather low and bunkers had less hp, so they managed to take quite a few systems and it only changed when ccp changed the requirements after a week or so, which saved the Amarr from losing more systems, but also made it way harder to retake the lost systems later on.

When first coordination started to form on the Amarr side, vent/TS servers were sabotaged by trolls continuously logging on and off and the overabundance of spies led to the very few established pvp corps Amarr had at the time (I think pie was the only one) to stick to themselves.

Minmatar outnumbered Amarr 2:1 in militia members, 0utbreak completely ruled the field and whilst they didn't blob themselves too much, they were followed by a huge militia blob wherever they went, regardless if they wanted them to or not.

Slacker industries were the only corp within the Amarr militia that did relatively well, but their presence hurt Amarr more than it helped, as they were the reason why 0utbreak had come at all. Also, they primarily were pirates and soon started wardeccing some of the newly formed corps within the Amarr militia and were the reason why there soon started to be first shootouts between militia fleets and the very few CVA gangs that were operating in the area.

From within the initial chaos, a few corps started to emerge - foremost it was Armada who formed around wraithstorm, Series of tubes forming around angelonico and a few good men who rallied around blunter, which were the three most decent Amarr FC's outside slackers at the time.

Angelonico led quite a lot of militia fleets that were so suicidal, I still think he was an 0utbreak alt made for the sole purpose of leading militia sheep to the slaughter, whereas blunter and wraith started sticking to themselves as soon as their corps reached big enough numbers to form corp-only gangs.

Over time, weaker Amarr players either left the militia or grew better to an extent where they were confident enough to take on a militia twice their size and they started to break even with Minmatar in kills and VP despite the numerical advantage unchanged, so they actually performed a lot better on a per player basis.
The older Amarr FW corps had quite some infighting going, leading to TUBES disbanding and AFEW as well as AMDA going to nullsec, but smaller FW corps like Gunship Diplomacy and Absinthe Brothers took over, soon to be backed up with TDRS who basically were ex-AFEW.

When 0utbreak left, it became apparent that most of the rest of the minmatar militia weren't as good as they may have thought and their seemingly good performance was merely due to them sneaking on better peoples kilmails, so the Minmatar militia literally imploded, which led to discontent, accusations and infighting.

Heretics (foremost mirrorgod) managed to keep a few well performing fleets going, but their impact on the TLF were probably comparable to that of slackers on the 24th IC, plaing their part in leading to the sorry state the Minmatar are currently in.

The impact of SF on militia operations is rather negligible for 24th IC members like me who can't be wardecced by them, and it seems the coprs they have wardecced are unaffected by it as well. Looking up the kills of the corp they have wardecced the longest (ABC) for example, you'll find that their kills rose by over 50% after the wardec, further increasing in the second month, whereas their losses didn't increase considerably.

Moreover, the claims of CVA support are ridiculous and most of the leading FW corps are KOS to CVA and ratting in providence is a no-go for them. The only incidences I can recall lately was CVA jumping in cap fleets to engage SF and the united cap fleets.

Not really comparable to the 30 cap heavy fleet UK & friends jumped in to take down an AMDA POS last year.

Hardin
Amarr
Imperial Dreams
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2009.05.21 13:15:00 - [72]
 

I think everyone is overestimating the CVA's impact on FW and our willingness/ability to drop caps into FW fights at short notice.

If we were dropping caps in to FW fights on a daily or even weekly basis then maybe it would be a major consideration - however our involvement has not been anywhere near that frequent.

Yes enemies of Amarr need to take the 'possibility' of a CVA hotdrop into account but they really shouldn't be any more paranoid about it than anyone else who chooses to put their Dreads into siege.

There are a lot of other organisations (Cry Havoc comes to mind) who will hot drop at the 'drop of a hat' if they get the chance to kill Capitals. ANYONE putting caps in siege should be paranoid but to use 'fear of CVA hotdrop'as an excuse for Minmatar Militia failings really doesn't wash....

Ezra Tair
Tri-gun
Auctorita Alliance
Posted - 2009.05.21 13:18:00 - [73]
 

I scan for complexes every time I get a chance, just so I might get a small one that I don't have to worry about facing a more skilled (SP wise) opponent. But, they just don't seem to spawn sometimes. When I am fleeted, and there is a complex explosed, most FC's would rather camp a gate or station for 20 mins than an objective. Perhaps they are adverse to the irreversible standings hit with Amarrian and Caldari empires.

I don't mind the whole Heritics as an extra target thing either. I don't hold grudges against corps that have non aggression agreements with them either. Its a prudent move when you want to focus on advancing your agenda against a numerically superior enemy. It also causes mixed fleets, which I think is a good thing because of the lab, and the boring nature of large fleet warfare.


One thing, far above anything else I have seen. Is that Amarrian forces, that are not of the 24th Crusade, are far more apt to bring advanced ships to the fight than it appears the Matar militia are. Or perhaps, being in the TLF I am with the true irregulars, and corp ran fleets are just a likely to bring the T2 as the next guy.
e
Regardless, it's a pretty balanced fight. Although its quickly apparent that most Amarrian forces' prime time is slightly before Minmatar forces prime time.

nasty1
Minmatar
T.R.I.A.D
Posted - 2009.05.25 23:57:00 - [74]
 

The situation as I see it in the most simplest way.

Look at the kill boards, take the kills on the amarr kill board and the kills on the mini kill board and compare them. statistically there is only one outcome, do your own homework.

our presence in the war zone dominates (every day we complain about not finding any WTs to kill at certain times of the day)

We are in your systems much more than you are.

We will fight if we are outnumbered if we think it would be a good fight, we do not run like cowards, the amarr run if they think they can't win, that's the real difference.

amarr are game players just like the mini's and I do not condone racial hatred and verbal abuse and try and discourage it

Regarding my FC'ing,

I think I FC for the longest each day and when amarr blob should I run? or stand and fight with everything we can muster.

amarr have had some great fights with us even though we have been outnumbered, extremely enjoyable even though we may have lost some, but we stand and fight and have one some epic fights.

Jade pointed out one and I know they are more.

SF are true warriors just like us mini's.

If you so need links to the epic fights and can't be bothered to do your own homework I will link some, one can be found in my bio of my character.

Nasty

Hayaishi
Gallente
Aperture Harmonics
Posted - 2009.05.26 05:47:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: Intigo
Originally by: Gin G
Originally by: Veshta Yoshida
Talking was tried and diplomatic efforts were made, but the shroud the totalitarian Shakor regime has pulled over the collective Matari eyes seems impenetrable.

Until such a time when the Minmatar realise that Shakor is a traitor to their beloved republic, we shall hold the line against the naked aggression of the malevolent demagogue.

Our most exalted Empress tried showing goodwill by emancipating a fraction of the slaves within the Empire, but still the propaganda oozes from the bowels of the Shakorite dictatorship.
Imagine if our most glorious Empress had not foreseen the turmoil in the Republic and had released ALL slaves. The token amount emancipated ended up internment camps due to the Republics inability to accommodate them .. nothing says "Welcome Home" like barbed wire and shanty towns.

Open your eyes, see Shakor for what he is and what he has done to the once proud people of Matar.


arr goto love CVA bunch of utter nuts shall i get the white padded room ready

but IMO the amarr are the best as ive heard almost nothing about them must mean they do there thing instead of just talk about it unlike the calamari


...

(S)He's in PIE. That's not CVA.

Jeez. >_>


mmm, pie...


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