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Danaka
Gallente
The Old Comrades Association
The Second Genesis
Posted - 2009.05.10 23:22:00 - [1]
 

Ok, the purpose of the SB is to be able to pull of a sneak attack. And now that they have been given the ability to use torps there is one thing that needs to be given a serious "look see". If using torps, I've been told that the shooter (SB) has to remain uncloaked until weapons hit. Also, if using Bombs he can cloak but has to remain in the same grid. I think that this defeats the entire purpose of stealth. Even if a set of new weapons has to be designed for them, those weapons should all be "Fire and Forget".

I think that an SB should be able to uncloak (at range), lock target, fire, cloak and leave the area. In military jargon it's called, "shoot & scoot". I'd like to get some thoughts on this from you guys.

Gibbo3771
Posted - 2009.05.10 23:32:00 - [2]
 

You do have a point(sorta), but then comes the problem, how the **** are you ever going to a catch one, lets say a crow warps in. pins your nice iunno, officer fitted golem?, yeah that will do.

30 SB uncloak and all fire a bomb at you, cloak and **** off, al you gotta do now is wait for the 80k volley.

So your basically going to make them invincible, I have had 3-4 stealthbombers uncloak 40km away from my domi firing torpedoes, it was hard enough to kill them without a proper ranged fitting.

Also, I died :), they lived on....

Baka Lakadaka
Gallente
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2009.05.11 02:03:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Gibbo3771
You do have a point(sorta), but then comes the problem, how the **** are you ever going to a catch one, lets say a crow warps in. pins your nice iunno, officer fitted golem?, yeah that will do.

30 SB uncloak and all fire a bomb at you, cloak and **** off, al you gotta do now is wait for the 80k volley.

So your basically going to make them invincible, I have had 3-4 stealthbombers uncloak 40km away from my domi firing torpedoes, it was hard enough to kill them without a proper ranged fitting.

Also, I died :), they lived on....


I'd have to agree - there's such a thing as overpowered. The SB must remain balanced, and I think it's about right for now.

Danaka
Gallente
The Old Comrades Association
The Second Genesis
Posted - 2009.05.11 03:18:00 - [4]
 

In part I agree w/you and I do see your point. However it's either gonna be stealth or not. Let's suppose that you're gonna use several of them to break up a gate camp. There are bound to be opposition frigs someplace in the mix. If you have to sit and wait for your torps to hit the target, then you're dead (as you say). Some how not being able to FAF defeats the whole purpose.

And I do understand about the proper tool for the proper job; and SB's can be killed by anything anyway. So yeah they do need that edge.

Charlie chop
Posted - 2009.05.11 04:32:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Danaka
In part I agree w/you and I do see your point. However it's either gonna be stealth or not. Let's suppose that you're gonna use several of them to break up a gate camp. There are bound to be opposition frigs someplace in the mix. If you have to sit and wait for your torps to hit the target, then you're dead (as you say). Some how not being able to FAF defeats the whole purpose.

And I do understand about the proper tool for the proper job; and SB's can be killed by anything anyway. So yeah they do need that edge.



:S i have to say i disagree. i fly SB, i like them but giving the the ability to just shoot and scoot as you say will make then too overpowered. BS already have trouble fighting these beauties alone.

theyve already been given covert ops, twice as much DPS acquireable by any other frig hull and the ability to engage outside drone range. myabe even a decreased signature.

besides, with the ability to warp cloaked you can set up safes in 1 minute so you jsut warp there and watch them go boom.

Mad0ne
Caldari
Enterprise Estonia
Cult of War
Posted - 2009.05.11 05:42:00 - [6]
 

You dont have to be in grid for bomb to explode.


Aaronm100
Caldari
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
Posted - 2009.05.11 06:36:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Mad0ne
You dont have to be in grid for bomb to explode.



This is true, aslong as you're still alive then the bomb goes off.

Zarroh
Posted - 2009.05.11 09:57:00 - [8]
 

Nice topic! I am working towards a bombing SB myself and I can't wait to test it all out.

Questions:
- Is is not enough to stay out of the 15km effect area of most bombs or do you really have to warp out?
- How is the launching of the bombs handled? Do you have to stay aligned with the target or can you align with your exit object (bookmark, planet etc)
- Is there enough time time to launch e.g. 3 successive bombs (e.g. if fired well out of the bomb's area of effect) or do we have to stick with only one bomb launch?

Thank you!

Baka Lakadaka
Gallente
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2009.05.11 12:07:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Aaronm100
Originally by: Mad0ne
You dont have to be in grid for bomb to explode.



This is true, aslong as you're still alive then the bomb goes off.


You do need to be in system though.....I tested this on Sisi quite extensively. Setting the bomb in flight then jumping through the gate prevented the bomb detonating. I had my alt in the system with the bomb and no explosion was seen.

Here are my initial test results from our internal forums (first test in a series):
______
Test Location:
(deleted) - jumping back and forwards through the gate.

Test Scenario:

Bomber sits close on gate (within jump range)
Observer alt sits 50km off the gate and watches a jet-can set at 18km from the gate.

Bomber aligns to the jet-can and travels at slow speed towards the can.
Bomber fires missile and jumps through gate.

I only did a few tests, but the bomb isn't detonating if the bomber leaves the system. One one occasion the bomb went off simultaneously as the bomber jumped out of the system. By delaying the jump for almost 15 seconds, the bomb detonated and killed the can as the "jumping" message came up on screen.

Whenever the bomber left the system, no explosion was observed. When the bomber remained in system, the bomb detonated and the can was destroyed.
_______

If the bomb goes off and hits someone outside your own corp (the jetcan was obviously my corp), then you're going to be aggressed, so you can't jump anyway. So it's pointless being near the gate and intending to jump out of system. Later I did some similar testing with an out of corp alt to prove the aggression theory.

Gibbo3771
Posted - 2009.05.11 15:19:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Danaka
In part I agree w/you and I do see your point. However it's either gonna be stealth or not. Let's suppose that you're gonna use several of them to break up a gate camp. There are bound to be opposition frigs someplace in the mix. If you have to sit and wait for your torps to hit the target, then you're dead (as you say). Some how not being able to FAF defeats the whole purpose.

And I do understand about the proper tool for the proper job; and SB's can be killed by anything anyway. So yeah they do need that edge.



I disagree with your statement, "If you have to sit and wait for your torps to hit the target, then you're dead", If you lose a stealthbomber its over picking the wrong target or not in the correct gang, all you need is an arazu and your SB'in buddies are all good. Only reason I am stating this is becuase we lost 1 in a gang becuase a geddon warped in, pulse with scorch, pop, but we managed to kill a raven and a mega becuase of there limitation, torps on a raven, 25-30km with decent skills, mega, well =<10km range, so that was a good target too pick but the geddon was a bad one.....

:)

BuckStrider
Nano-Tech Experiments
Posted - 2009.05.11 17:10:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Gibbo3771
You do have a point(sorta), but then comes the problem, how the **** are you ever going to a catch one, lets say a crow warps in. pins your nice iunno, officer fitted golem?, yeah that will do.

30 SB uncloak and all fire a bomb at you, cloak and **** off, al you gotta do now is wait for the 80k volley.

So your basically going to make them invincible, I have had 3-4 stealthbombers uncloak 40km away from my domi firing torpedoes, it was hard enough to kill them without a proper ranged fitting.

Also, I died :), they lived on....


And they did exactly what they were designed for...Killing your BS.
Bombers are in no way overpowered. Against most any other class of ship (exept for maybe a BC that's far away), if they engage or are targeted they become dead real fast.

Bombers have pathetic defences.

Mad0ne
Caldari
Enterprise Estonia
Cult of War
Posted - 2009.05.12 06:04:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Zarroh
Nice topic! I am working towards a bombing SB myself and I can't wait to test it all out.

Questions:
- Is is not enough to stay out of the 15km effect area of most bombs or do you really have to warp out?
- How is the launching of the bombs handled? Do you have to stay aligned with the target or can you align with your exit object (bookmark, planet etc)
- Is there enough time time to launch e.g. 3 successive bombs (e.g. if fired well out of the bomb's area of effect) or do we have to stick with only one bomb launch?

Thank you!


Answers: :D

1. If you stay in 15km range, bomb will not detonate - its like failsafe mechanism.
2. you have to stay aligned with the target when you are launching bomb. (bomb goes where your ship is pointed at)
But if bomb launched, you can kinda safely warp away or smth.
3. With maxed skills you can launch 1 bomb after every 2 minutes. To launch 3 bombs at the same time, you need more bombers.
Also you can only launch up to 7-8 bombs that deal same damage! So they wont blow eachother up.

Zarroh
Posted - 2009.05.12 16:07:00 - [13]
 

Wow thanks for the answers Madone. :)

So what happens if you stay let's say 40km away from impact point. Will you still get blown up?

I believe a perfect bomber setup would be to mix both torp and bomb-launchers. The Torps will be used for the first and last damage hit while the bomb is supposed to amplify the hit. It wouldn't give the target(s) such as a BS enough time to destroy the SB.

Is this too far fetched an idea?

Thanks. :)

Fourty Niner
Posted - 2009.05.13 01:18:00 - [14]
 

What?????


So the brand new ability to warp cloaked isnt enough for you?

Zarroh
Posted - 2009.05.13 08:56:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Fourty Niner
What?????


So the brand new ability to warp cloaked isnt enough for you?


What????

You don't have anything productive to say? Then crawl back to the asteroids depot where you come from...

This thread isn't for whiny carebears who lost their ship to SBs.

ablemaster
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2009.05.13 12:00:00 - [16]
 

this is a good topic because i want to train for SB but i think they should put them back to cruse missiles not torps but that's just me and i juut want to see what yo all say about it!

Danaka
Gallente
The Old Comrades Association
The Second Genesis
Posted - 2009.05.13 20:53:00 - [17]
 

Thanks all for your input and thoughts on this subject. But I still have to say that because of the lack of any defensive capabilities, the SB is a sitting duck if he has to wait for his torps to hit target. The Bomb info is good news, and I imagine that if one would send in a portion of the gang to paint targets and take out frigs....... Then of course the SB's could come in and hit whoever and leave via a JP. But I do want to say this, every ship has an advantage of some sort or another whether alone or in conjunction w/a gang.

But let's face it, the only advantage the SB has is to be able to cloak, shoot and leave. And even then if he get's targeted he can't cloak. So I think that full advantage of stealth should be exploited here. And yes an SB should be able to shoot and scoot.

Thanks again ppl, appreciate it.

Xalabaster
Posted - 2009.05.13 23:54:00 - [18]
 

Speedtank your SB and you can erase the term "sitting duck" from your post.
I have been ratting, wh-ing and low/null-secing in my Nemesis for some time (all solo) and didn't lose it yet to either npc nor player engagements.

It's very challenging flying but extremely fun as you won't survive with normal orbiting.
Didn't try bombing yet but a SB, if used right, can be a great and quick ISK making tool.

Try it...

Kavu
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2009.05.14 15:38:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Fourty Niner
What?????


So the brand new ability to warp cloaked isnt enough for you?


dont be a moron, its already possible to use both
all my SB fits have 3 siege launchers and 1 bomb launcher


Fourty Niner
Posted - 2009.05.14 20:25:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Fourty Niner on 14/05/2009 20:29:28
Edited by: Fourty Niner on 14/05/2009 20:28:22
Originally by: Kavu
Originally by: Fourty Niner
What?????


So the brand new ability to warp cloaked isnt enough for you?


dont be a moron, its already possible to use both
all my SB fits have 3 siege launchers and 1 bomb launcher



Im saying the resent changes so that you can actauly arrive clocked are more than enough, and we dont need anymore chnages. You then AGREE with me that you dont need changes cos you can already do it"?" so why am I a moron

Quote:

What????

You don't have anything productive to say? Then crawl back to the asteroids depot where you come from...

This thread isn't for whiny carebears who lost their ship to SBs.
MIne WAS productive, "SB have just improved to be useful, thats enough"
Where as your "Go away carebear" reply was pointless and stupid, and seems to be based on nothing other than I say SB are already good enough?

Zarroh
Posted - 2009.05.15 16:34:00 - [21]
 

Seems like the entire world doesn't understand you but you... :) Hope to find you soon and kill that pod of yours. Twisted Evil

bamason
Amarr
Dragon's Rage
Ethereal Dawn
Posted - 2009.05.15 17:35:00 - [22]
 

To me the final tweak that they need is to have about 4- 5k armor/sheilds with the resistances of an assualt frig.this would atleast give them a little survivability.


 

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