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blankseplocked Is ninja looting an oversight in view of the nerf hammer?
 
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Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.07.22 17:47:00 - [211]
 

Edited by: Malcanis on 22/07/2009 17:47:59
Originally by: Mendolus


Hey, I am just telling it like it is. CCP, you, me, and anyone with half a brain probably all agree that salvaging is a good game mechanic in its current form, but that does not stop it from being abused to the point that CCP has to grudgingly admit it needs to change the mechanic.


But, again, where is the least little bit of evidence that this is so? Can you produce so much as a hint that CCP are dissatisfied or dismayed with the amount of ninja salvaging going on? It really does seem to me that ninja salvagers exactly describe their stated goal of salvaging as a mini-profession. So far as I can tell, your main argument is reduces down to no more than "this is ****ing some (but not all) mission runners off". Sorry buddy, that's just not enough.

You keep describing ninja salvaging as a "loophole", a "problem" and so forth. As if salvage was originally really supposed to be the property of the mission runner, and the free-for-all nature of salvaging was an oversight, a careless bit of programming, a game design whoopsie. But, and this is an amply recorded historical fact, it never was.

Let me restate this, because it is the core flaw in all your arguments:

CCP explicitly say that salvage was not intended to increase mission running rewards

I dont know how to make this any plainer. The salvage that you are complaining about losing isn't yours, was never yours, wasn't introduced to be yours, has never been intended to be yours. At no point did CCP have the least intention of ever - regardless of circumstance - making it yours. The "loophole" you are complaining about is working as intended. IT'S WHAT CCP HAD IN MIND FROM THE BEGINNING. IT'S WHAT THEY WANTED TO HAPPEN. THEY'RE NOT GOING TO CHANGE IT BECAUSE IT'S WHAT THEY WANT.

I typed that in block capitals because it seems like that might work in conveying this simple, basic concept to you.

If it doesn't work, well, whatever, because CCP aint gonna change it regardless of how impervious you are.

Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
Posted - 2009.07.22 18:00:00 - [212]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Edited by: Malcanis on 22/07/2009 17:47:59
Originally by: Mendolus


Hey, I am just telling it like it is. CCP, you, me, and anyone with half a brain probably all agree that salvaging is a good game mechanic in its current form, but that does not stop it from being abused to the point that CCP has to grudgingly admit it needs to change the mechanic.


But, again, where is the least little bit of evidence that this is so? Can you produce so much as a hint that CCP are dissatisfied or dismayed with the amount of ninja salvaging going on? It really does seem to me that ninja salvagers exactly describe their stated goal of salvaging as a mini-profession. So far as I can tell, your main argument is reduces down to no more than "this is ****ing some (but not all) mission runners off". Sorry buddy, that's just not enough.

You keep describing ninja salvaging as a "loophole", a "problem" and so forth. As if salvage was originally really supposed to be the property of the mission runner, and the free-for-all nature of salvaging was an oversight, a careless bit of programming, a game design whoopsie. But, and this is an amply recorded historical fact, it never was.

Let me restate this, because it is the core flaw in all your arguments:

CCP explicitly say that salvage was not intended to increase mission running rewards

I dont know how to make this any plainer. The salvage that you are complaining about losing isn't yours, was never yours, wasn't introduced to be yours, has never been intended to be yours. At no point did CCP have the least intention of ever - regardless of circumstance - making it yours. The "loophole" you are complaining about is working as intended. IT'S WHAT CCP HAD IN MIND FROM THE BEGINNING. IT'S WHAT THEY WANTED TO HAPPEN. THEY'RE NOT GOING TO CHANGE IT BECAUSE IT'S WHAT THEY WANT.

I typed that in block capitals because it seems like that might work in conveying this simple, basic concept to you.

If it doesn't work, well, whatever, because CCP aint gonna change it regardless of how impervious you are.


I think at this point I am going to have to step out because I am not really eager to respond to so many straw man arguments.

o7

Robert Caldera
Posted - 2009.07.22 18:29:00 - [213]
 

Edited by: Robert Caldera on 22/07/2009 18:29:30
CCP should remove the ownership to all stuff dropping from NPC finally, the stuff belongs actually to NPC not for anyone who killed them. THIS is the reason mission runners come here for whining, they see there is on the one hand loot for them, and on the other hand the salvage, which is NOT for them. What does a greedy bear conclude from that? RIGHT - the salvage rules are wrong because salvage does not belong to the bear.

CCP, PLEASE, FFS REMOVE THE LOOT OWNERSHIP ALREADY!!!

Doomed Predator
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2009.07.22 18:50:00 - [214]
 

God lord,empire mission runners have is very easy already and yet the greedy little bastards want the only inconvenience removed. Making ninja salvage topics should come with a 6 month forum ban.

Bibbleibble
Posted - 2009.07.22 19:16:00 - [215]
 

Originally by: Doomed Predator
God lord,empire mission runners have is very easy already and yet the greedy little bastards want the only inconvenience removed. Making ninja salvage topics should come with a 6 month forum ban.


TBH, the most logical and sensible idea so far in this thread (except maybe Malcanis' one about deadspace being 0.0. Maybe)

On a side note, why doesn't this thread have a blue bar yet?

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.07.22 19:21:00 - [216]
 

Originally by: Bibbleibble
On a side note, why doesn't this thread have a blue bar yet?
It doesn't need one: CCP's stance is, and always has been, abundantly clear.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.07.22 19:41:00 - [217]
 

Originally by: Bibbleibble
Originally by: Doomed Predator
God lord,empire mission runners have is very easy already and yet the greedy little bastards want the only inconvenience removed. Making ninja salvage topics should come with a 6 month forum ban.


TBH, the most logical and sensible idea so far in this thread (except maybe Malcanis' one about deadspace being 0.0. Maybe)

On a side note, why doesn't this thread have a blue bar yet?


http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1067174&page=7#205

Bibbleibble
Posted - 2009.07.22 19:49:00 - [218]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Bibbleibble
Originally by: Doomed Predator
God lord,empire mission runners have is very easy already and yet the greedy little bastards want the only inconvenience removed. Making ninja salvage topics should come with a 6 month forum ban.


TBH, the most logical and sensible idea so far in this thread (except maybe Malcanis' one about deadspace being 0.0. Maybe)

On a side note, why doesn't this thread have a blue bar yet?


http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1067174&page=7#205


Link for the lazy.

CCP Prism X


Gallente
C C P
C C P Alliance
Posted - 2009.07.22 19:51:00 - [219]
 

Originally by: Bibbleibble
On a side note, why doesn't this thread have a blue bar yet?


Because there are at least three threads, on this subject, out there that have been blue-bared. The majority of pro-status-quo posters have linked all of them to support their arguments.. so when I posted I saw no reason to bar this when I'm not saying anything I haven't said before. Besides, the fact that this thread exists proofs how much good it did to bar the other ones. Neutral

Is this me loosing my temper again, Malcanis? Laughing

Bibbleibble
Posted - 2009.07.22 19:53:00 - [220]
 

Originally by: CCP Prism X
Originally by: Bibbleibble
On a side note, why doesn't this thread have a blue bar yet?


Because there are at least three threads, on this subject, out there that have been blue-bared. The majority of pro-status-quo posters have linked all of them to support their arguments.. so when I posted I saw no reason to bar this when I'm not saying anything I haven't said before. Besides, the fact that this thread exists proofs how much good it did to bar the other ones. Neutral

Is this me loosing my temper again, Malcanis? Laughing


I think you misunderstood Sad

I mean, why doesn't show that you posted earlier?

CCP Prism X


Gallente
C C P
C C P Alliance
Posted - 2009.07.22 19:56:00 - [221]
 

Originally by: Bibbleibble
I mean, why doesn't show that you posted earlier?


Originally by: CCP Prism X
.. so when I posted I saw no reason to bar this...


Because I made it so...

Bibbleibble
Posted - 2009.07.22 19:58:00 - [222]
 

Originally by: CCP Prism X
Originally by: Bibbleibble
I mean, why doesn't show that you posted earlier?


Originally by: CCP Prism X
.. so when I posted I saw no reason to bar this...


Because I made it so...


Oops Embarassed

I must becoming blind...

<goes and buries head in shame>

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.07.22 21:02:00 - [223]
 

Originally by: CCP Prism X
Originally by: Bibbleibble
On a side note, why doesn't this thread have a blue bar yet?


Because there are at least three threads, on this subject, out there that have been blue-bared. The majority of pro-status-quo posters have linked all of them to support their arguments.. so when I posted I saw no reason to bar this when I'm not saying anything I haven't said before. Besides, the fact that this thread exists proofs how much good it did to bar the other ones. Neutral

Is this me loosing my temper again, Malcanis? Laughing



Ever so delicately. One appreciates it.

CyberGh0st
Minmatar
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
Posted - 2009.07.22 22:12:00 - [224]
 

Agree with previous poster, this is the price you pay for highsec missioning.

So you have 3 options :

1. go to lowsec
2. find a friend to mission/salvage and split rewards, honestly, since my RL friend stopped playing, I barely salvage anymore, it just takes so much time :p
3. suck it up and keep doing solo level 4 missions in highsec
.

Ghoest
Posted - 2009.07.23 00:02:00 - [225]
 

Originally by: Isakova
Yes nice cut and paste.

Completely overlooking my point.

Ninja salvaging in mission deadspace is pretty much consequence free, not in an asteroid belt.



No they completely got your point noob.

There are no consequences for salvage because its salvage.

Junko Togawa
Caldari
Posted - 2009.07.23 01:21:00 - [226]
 

Mmmm...I can feel the nerf swelling within you...post your topics...whine them down with all of your nerdrage, and your journey towards the dork side will be complete!

Srsly, poast moar, wants to see salvage nerf and emorage by ninjabears plz! ugh

Bestofworst Worstofbest
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2009.07.23 01:31:00 - [227]
 

Originally by: Ghoest
Originally by: Isakova
Yes nice cut and paste.

Completely overlooking my point.

Ninja salvaging in mission deadspace is pretty much consequence free, not in an asteroid belt.



No they completely got your point noob.

There are no consequences for salvage because its salvage.


Salvager risks:

Blacklisting (not too bad)
Warp in on low lvl missions (crap salvage)
Can warp in on missions that give crap salvage
Can warp in and get attacked fast by the NPCs
Can warp into Recon 3/3

Aranis Nax
Minmatar
Minmatar United Freedom Front
The 11th Hour
Posted - 2009.07.23 05:24:00 - [228]
 

Oh hi, lvl 4 mission runner here Laughing.
Anyway I wanna add an argument, that I haven't seen yet(not that I looked), to this here fine discussion of ninja salvaging.
an analogy to the real world(oh no terrible): ninja-salvaging is like someone stealing your car but leaving behind the contents(which is you, the paperwork, the gasoline, whatever else isn't explicitly part of the car...) and you calling Concord and them saying: "nope, can't arrest that guy for stealing your car, he didn't steal the contents."

I'd just want salvaging to either flag the salvager just like looting the wreck would or to have neither looting nor salvaging do so. Moar pvp consequences can't be a bad thing, right? Would be an excellent reason to start fitting a warp disruptor on mission running ship Twisted Evil.

Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2009.07.23 05:36:00 - [229]
 

Originally by: Aranis Nax
Oh hi, lvl 4 mission runner here Laughing.
Anyway I wanna add an argument, that I haven't seen yet(not that I looked), to this here fine discussion of ninja salvaging.
an analogy to the real world(oh no terrible): ninja-salvaging is like someone stealing your car but leaving behind the contents(which is you, the paperwork, the gasoline, whatever else isn't explicitly part of the car...) and you calling Concord and them saying: "nope, can't arrest that guy for stealing your car, he didn't steal the contents."

I'd just want salvaging to either flag the salvager just like looting the wreck would or to have neither looting nor salvaging do so. Moar pvp consequences can't be a bad thing, right? Would be an excellent reason to start fitting a warp disruptor on mission running ship Twisted Evil.


That's the most pathetic analogy I've ever seen, because salvage isn't yours. A car is yours.

Shurrurru
Red Unicorns Love Chocolate
Posted - 2009.07.23 06:37:00 - [230]
 

I didn't read 7 of the 8 pages so maybe my point's already been made.

You're playing an MMORPG. Massively multiplay it with a salvager (for the low low price of half of the salvage profit) or have a friend in an Interceptor ready with a scram if the salvager gets stealy.

You can't do everything at once so stop playing solo in a multiplayer game. Accept that you either need to split some of your salvage, some of your mission bounties, or accept that part of your income is likely to get stolen from you.

Mr Sean
Posted - 2009.07.23 06:51:00 - [231]
 

Edited by: Mr Sean on 23/07/2009 06:51:50
So, how many of you people who think it's unfair that others can salvage from your missions have bothered to even notice that there are countermeasures to prevent anyone scanning you down in a mission in the first place, and they are pretty simple to fit and use. Yes, your navy issue faction fit will have to sacrifice a couple slots, but there are solutions to your problem that don't involve starting the same thread up over and over and over...

Rune Hirr
Posted - 2009.07.23 09:49:00 - [232]
 

There is a very easy fix to the problem; put a guard with a key at first gate in all missions, simple and effective. I have always found it strange that there is non, to me it is like building a house leaving out the front door. This is no major change to do and when you turn in the mission, it is no longer deadspace. leaving me as the mission runner to clean out or shut up. Scavengers can scan the system as much as they want, and hope I don't want the salvage/loot.

To make it more interesting for low sec mission runners, the key is mad as cargo and if some1 pops u, they get the key. Now do u buy back the key and keep your standing ? that sounds like fun.
To make things even, non secure cans is given a grace period of lets say 45 min., after that it is viewed as abandoned and flag removed, subsequent the name of can is changed to “abandoned”.

Yes I understand ccp didn't introduce salvage as ad.payment to mission-runners.

¤-Taking loot, salvage or opening named cans, calling yourself a ninja is just another way of saying “I am a thief”. If u didn't pop the ship, or the can don't carry your name, the salvage/loot is not yours. U call yourself a ninja cos u can't swallow the fact that u are a thief-¤

Robert Caldera
Posted - 2009.07.23 10:45:00 - [233]
 

no need for boosting missions, they require a nerf rather, which could be realized via removing all loot ownership to NPC stuff, like salvage is.

Karentaki
Gallente
Oberon Incorporated
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.07.23 10:58:00 - [234]
 

Originally by: Aranis Nax
Oh hi, lvl 4 mission runner here Laughing.
Anyway I wanna add an argument, that I haven't seen yet(not that I looked), to this here fine discussion of ninja salvaging.
an analogy to the real world(oh no terrible): ninja-salvaging is like someone stealing your car but leaving behind the contents(which is you, the paperwork, the gasoline, whatever else isn't explicitly part of the car...) and you calling Concord and them saying: "nope, can't arrest that guy for stealing your car, he didn't steal the contents."

I'd just want salvaging to either flag the salvager just like looting the wreck would or to have neither looting nor salvaging do so. Moar pvp consequences can't be a bad thing, right? Would be an excellent reason to start fitting a warp disruptor on mission running ship Twisted Evil.


Would you really complain if someone came and 'stole' your car wreck after you smashed it into a train going at full speed (read: completely wrecked), but left all your possessions in a nice little box for you with your name on it?

TBH, I agree with the suggestion to make mission deadspace a free-fire zone. If the mission runners want to shoot the salvagers that's fine, but the salvagers should be able to defend themselves. Twisted Evil

Robert Caldera
Posted - 2009.07.23 11:12:00 - [235]
 

Originally by: Karentaki
TBH, I agree with the suggestion to make mission deadspace a free-fire zone. If the mission runners want to shoot the salvagers that's fine, but the salvagers should be able to defend themselves. Twisted Evil


yes, its a good suggestion. But I think mission runners will get some other kind of visitors in their missions then ugh, which arent that friendly like salvagers Laughing
However, I support thisLaughing

Bonny Lee
Caldari
Starkstrom
Initiative Mercenaries
Posted - 2009.07.23 11:16:00 - [236]
 

This has been discussed a lot... im so tired of hitting carebears.

Sara Careless
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.07.23 11:29:00 - [237]
 

dude in blue!

tell ur boss that if he nerfs ninjasalvaging i stop paying for this account here!

XhaleDK
Posted - 2009.08.06 20:58:00 - [238]
 

This sux.. i don't complain much about this game.. But this really sux..

THE L0CK
Posted - 2009.08.06 20:58:00 - [239]
 

Originally by: XhaleDK
This sux.. i don't complain much about this game.. But this really sux..


Nice necro

Adamantor
Caldari
Legendary Knights
Vorpal's Edge
Posted - 2009.08.06 21:56:00 - [240]
 

Fleet with someone and run a looter. This prevents anyone from taking your loot and lets you knock out the mission quicker (or with atleast the same ISK/Hr if you work on your tactics)

I don't see many mechanics in game encouraging mission fleets, but this is one of them.

Stop flying solo missions and you'll avoid this problem completely.


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