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Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.07.22 13:43:00 - [181]
 

ITT: Hi-sec mission runners complaining about other people making lots of ISK with no risk.

Rashmika Clavain
Gallente
Posted - 2009.07.22 14:43:00 - [182]
 

Originally by: Isakova

I don't know what to suggest as its a fun game mechanic, but its completely risk free,


You're right. Any form of Empire salvaging is completely risk free. Once the mission is cleared, the mission runner comes back and salvages. How is that risky? Or are you seriosuly suggesting that it's risky for the mission runner to salvage because he's just run the "risk" of a mission that is banaly easy and just given him around 5-15m in terms of bounties etc?

If you wanted to add risk to all Empire mission savaging, then fine. However you don't, you simply want to stop other people probing you out by glossing it over as a "ninja salvaging is too easy in terms of risk v reward". Well guess what, Empire salvaging is too easy too in terms of risk versus reward too.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.07.22 14:50:00 - [183]
 

How about we make deadspaces equivalent to 0.0, with no CONCORD presence (which would explain why agents need expensive, unreliable pod pilots to go and do the job).
Then missioners could bring lots of risk to ninja salvagers.

Or maybe just make them lo-sec? So there's a small sec hit for initiating a fight but then you're good to go!


Bibbleibble
Posted - 2009.07.22 14:54:00 - [184]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
How about we make deadspaces equivalent to 0.0, with no CONCORD presence (which would explain why agents need expensive, unreliable pod pilots to go and do the job).
Then missioners could bring lots of risk to ninja salvagers.

Or maybe just make them lo-sec? So there's a small sec hit for initiating a fight but then you're good to go!




This.

Reilana
Posted - 2009.07.22 15:01:00 - [185]
 

Blowing up your wrecks will not deter me in the slightest. When you blow up the wreck, you destroy all your loot and the salvage, reducing your mission income further. This is almost as good as the tears you cry in mail and pm so just encourages me more to hang around. By the time you've cut you mission income by at least 40%, i've scanned down another couple of missions to hit. I've also noted your ship ID so I can target you again when you get your next mission.

When you warp off, hoping NPCs will blow me up, you obviously don't understand how easy it is to speed tank a frigate. All you do is leave me to salvage in peace and pick out the juicy bits of loot from the wrecks. If you dont come back, i'll take the bounties, the salvage, the loot and the mission item (you can have it back on contracts for a recovery fee).

If the thought of me ninja'ing your mission offends you, there is nothing you can do to deter me. If you accept that salvaging is legitimate and leave us to do it, we would bother you no more.


Gin G
The Helghast Corporation
Posted - 2009.07.22 16:07:00 - [186]
 

i know

lets ALL

STFU about it for one week

just one week

give everyone a much needed rest

Robert Caldera
Posted - 2009.07.22 16:09:00 - [187]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
How about we make deadspaces equivalent to 0.0, with no CONCORD presence (which would explain why agents need expensive, unreliable pod pilots to go and do the job).
Then missioners could bring lots of risk to ninja salvagers.

Or maybe just make them lo-sec? So there's a small sec hit for initiating a fight but then you're good to go!




YES YEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSS PLEASE DO THIS CHANGE!!!
You have ALL my support!
Finally no more searching for gank victims in some empty low-sec or camping in 0.0 for targets, just scan motsu and have a LOT OF VICTIMS TO GANK!!

Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
Posted - 2009.07.22 16:11:00 - [188]
 

Edited by: Mendolus on 22/07/2009 16:32:33


It is pretty obvious that the salvaging mechanic is going to get a nerf of some kind.

EVE is a game of consequences, which makes it all the more ironic when so many people flock to professions that have none, of which there are so few in the game to start with. Ninja salvaging has no present consequence, and the more prevalent it becomes, the more likely CCP is to nerf it, just like piracy in low security was nerfed to attempt to bring people back into those areas of the game.

Ninja salvagers may not ever force a majority of mission runners into other professions, but the end result will be the same.

The mission hub I do L4s out of on rare occasions, has maybe twelve runners at any given time doing missions there, and there is a corporation of +50 there devoted solely to ninja salvaging. More than fifty people for a hub that supports I would wager around hundred million an hour in salvaged materials from mission runners. This is a problem.

And before I get the ubiquitous the salvage mechanic is working as intended let me remind you that 1) I agree in principle, and 2) bumping was working as intended at one point as well, until it became so prevalent as harassment in the game (thanks Goons) that CCP nerfed it to its current state.

Just because something has been done right, does not mean people will abstain from abusing it to the point that it must be altered to compensate for their behavior, and altered not because it is wrong, but because of said behavior.

I think it is a safe wager to say that good enough portion of people who choose predatory professions in the game like piracy, ninja salvaging, corporate theft, scamming, and exploiting (or abusing a mechanic that then becomes an exploit) are incapable of actually behaving like real predators. When they hunt their prey to absurdity and then begin to starve as it were, they seem incapable of realizing they need to change professions for awhile until the prey comes back or the ratio of predator to prey balances out again, instead you find them coming on here proclaiming that the nano nerf is the end of PvP in the game or blaming the carebears for hiding in Empire perpetually or behind NPC corporations, or that changing the salvage mechanic to balance the predator:prey ratio is fallacy, yet you can find ninja salvagers in almost any hub big or small these days. Obviously this cannot continue forever. So far nothing I have seen in the game indicates that it will.

Sound familiar?

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.07.22 16:19:00 - [189]
 

Originally by: Mendolus
EVE is a game of consequences, which makes it all the more ironic when so many people flock to professions that have none, of which there are so few in the game to start with. Ninja salvaging has no present consequence, and the more prevalent it becomes, the more likely CCP is to nerf it
So when are they going to nerf missions?

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.07.22 16:24:00 - [190]
 

Originally by: Robert Caldera
Originally by: Malcanis
How about we make deadspaces equivalent to 0.0, with no CONCORD presence (which would explain why agents need expensive, unreliable pod pilots to go and do the job).
Then missioners could bring lots of risk to ninja salvagers.

Or maybe just make them lo-sec? So there's a small sec hit for initiating a fight but then you're good to go!




YES YEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSS PLEASE DO THIS CHANGE!!!
You have ALL my support!
Finally no more searching for gank victims in some empty low-sec or camping in 0.0 for targets, just scan motsu and have a LOT OF VICTIMS TO GANK!!


I dunno man, judging by the posts these mission runners are making, you'll be taking a pretty big risk because they'll definitely kill you as soon as they are allowed to shoot at you.

Fly safe!

Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
Posted - 2009.07.22 16:28:00 - [191]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Mendolus
EVE is a game of consequences, which makes it all the more ironic when so many people flock to professions that have none, of which there are so few in the game to start with. Ninja salvaging has no present consequence, and the more prevalent it becomes, the more likely CCP is to nerf it
So when are they going to nerf missions?


When you know what you are talking about.


Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.07.22 16:34:00 - [192]
 

Originally by: Mendolus
When you know what you are talking about.
No, it didn't happen last year. So when?

Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
Posted - 2009.07.22 16:45:00 - [193]
 

Edited by: Mendolus on 22/07/2009 16:47:06
Originally by: Rashmika Clavain
Originally by: Isakova

I don't know what to suggest as its a fun game mechanic, but its completely risk free,


You're right. Any form of Empire salvaging is completely risk free. Once the mission is cleared, the mission runner comes back and salvages. How is that risky? Or are you seriosuly suggesting that it's risky for the mission runner to salvage because he's just run the "risk" of a mission that is banaly easy and just given him around 5-15m in terms of bounties etc?

If you wanted to add risk to all Empire mission savaging, then fine. However you don't, you simply want to stop other people probing you out by glossing it over as a "ninja salvaging is too easy in terms of risk v reward". Well guess what, Empire salvaging is too easy too in terms of risk versus reward too.


The point is not that ninja salvaging or the game mechanic are wrong, it is a matter of prevalence.

Piracy is not wrong either, but when the pirates drive a majority of players out of low security to the point that 50% of the player base huddles in the safety of Empire space, CCP takes action (or tries at least, rofl).

Now while ninja salvaging is never going to drive a majority of mission runners into other professions it is still going to eventually get the same nerf as anything else. Ninja salvaging is too easy, you can start a career in it within days of rolling an account and circumvent the skilling up required to actually do those missions yet mission runners take a month or two to skill up, and you still have to at least have some idea of what you are doing, plus devote the time to doing it.

When has CCP NOT eventually taken steps to balance the game mechanic when player behavior either A) has a negative impact on the entertainment experience thus effecting the bottom line on their sub base or B) becomes so overwhelmingly prevalent that an adjustment needs to be made to balance the game?

Obviously if even 5% of mission runners eventually unsubscribe from the game because they cannot do an L4 mission without someone salvaging their wrecks (assuming ninja salvaging continues to become more and more popular just like Falcons, Piracy, Lofty Scams, Nano Fits, etc. etc. etc.) while they are incapable of doing anything about it, CCP is going to take action. Please tell me why they would not?

How long did people cry foul on the Falcon until it inevitably got nerfed? There were just as many people crying for Falcon's to be left alone as there were for them to be nerfed, guess who won?

I don't like it anymore than the next guy, I would rather there be a chance some tool comes into my mission (of the few I do these days) and gives me something fun, different, and yes frustrating to experience not to mention the fact that I wholeheartedly agree that the salvaging mechanic is working as intended (but the people who do it are not). But at the same time if I could not do an L4 without a ninja salvager on top of me every time, do you not see something wrong with this?


Mercrom
Posted - 2009.07.22 16:46:00 - [194]
 

I don't like doing cheap and lowly things, or things that gives me a bad reputation. I have considered ninja salvaging though, because I would like to do everything I possibly can to grief the hell out of you people.

You're solo grinding and affecting the economy, while at the same time complaining about anything anyone else does to you while you do it. If CCP actually starts listening to you people they won't even make this game like World of Warcraft, they will make it like Progress Quest.

There ARE other games for you if you want to grind. Why try to ruin the most free PvP game out there?

Robert Caldera
Posted - 2009.07.22 16:48:00 - [195]
 

just turn mission deadspaces to 0.0 or low, you may fire at will and the problem is solved. I would like this fix.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.07.22 16:48:00 - [196]
 

Originally by: Mendolus
Edited by: Mendolus on 22/07/2009 16:46:14
Originally by: Rashmika Clavain
Originally by: Isakova

I don't know what to suggest as its a fun game mechanic, but its completely risk free,


You're right. Any form of Empire salvaging is completely risk free. Once the mission is cleared, the mission runner comes back and salvages. How is that risky? Or are you seriosuly suggesting that it's risky for the mission runner to salvage because he's just run the "risk" of a mission that is banaly easy and just given him around 5-15m in terms of bounties etc?

If you wanted to add risk to all Empire mission savaging, then fine. However you don't, you simply want to stop other people probing you out by glossing it over as a "ninja salvaging is too easy in terms of risk v reward". Well guess what, Empire salvaging is too easy too in terms of risk versus reward too.


The point is not that ninja salvaging or the game mechanic are wrong, it is a matter of prevalence.

Piracy is not wrong either, but when the pirates drive a majority of players out of low security to the point that 50% of the player base huddles in the safety of Empire space, CCP takes action.

Now while ninja salvaging is never going to drive a majority of mission runners into other professions it is still going to eventually get the same nerf as anything else. Ninja salvaging is too easy, you can start a career in it within days of rolling an account and circumvent the skilling up required to actually do those missions yet mission runners take a month or two to skill up, and you still have to at least have some idea of what you are doing, plus devote the time to doing it.

When has CCP NOT eventually taken steps to balance the game mechanic when player behavior either A) has a negative impact on the entertainment experience thus effecting the bottom line on their sub base or B) becomes so overwhelmingly prevalent that an adjustment needs to be made to balance the game?

Obviously if even 5% of mission runners eventually unsubscribe from the game because they cannot do an L4 mission without someone salvaging their wrecks (assuming ninja salvaging continues to become more and more popular just like Falcons, Piracy, Lofty Scams, Nano Fits, etc. etc. etc.) while they are incapable of doing anything about it, CCP is going to take action. Please tell me why they would not?

How long did people cry foul on the Falcon until it inevitably got nerfed? There were just as many people crying for Falcon's to be left alone as there were for them to be nerfed, guess who won?

I don't like it anymore than the next guy, I would rather there be a chance some tool comes into my mission (of the few I do these days) and gives me something fun, different, and yes frustrating to experience not to mention the fact that I wholeheartedly agree that the salvaging mechanic is working as intended (but the people who do it are not). But at the same time if I could not do an L4 without a ninja salvager on top of me every time, do you not see something wrong with this?





Ah, the old "give us what we want or we'll quit and take our dollars with us" routine. I'm only surprised it took until page 7 to appear tbh.

Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
Posted - 2009.07.22 16:51:00 - [197]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Mendolus
When you know what you are talking about.
No, it didn't happen last year. So when?


Touche, Laughing I must apologize for my previous comment, I was just hoping for an actual response of some kind not anecdotal and somewhat misleading commentary.

Yes, mission running is too easy, and it has an insane longterm income source when you start talking about mineral production from loot, but that's a different problem than this. Ninja salvaging is not a way to balance the income generation of mission runners because ninja salvaging has NO caveat.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.07.22 16:51:00 - [198]
 

Originally by: Mendolus

Obviously if even 5% of mission runners eventually unsubscribe from the game because they cannot do an L4 mission without someone salvaging their wrecks (assuming ninja salvaging continues to become more and more popular just like Falcons, Piracy, Lofty Scams, Nano Fits, etc. etc. etc.) while they are incapable of doing anything about it, CCP is going to take action. Please tell me why they would not?




I'd be very careful about making this argument if I were you. If you're saying that the fact that so many people engaging in ninja-salvaging is a sign that the profession is ipso facto unbalanced... what about the fact that such a huge majority of people make their ISK missioning?

And really you're trying to have it both ways:

(1) Ninja ratting is too popular therefore it needs nerfing
(2) Mission running must be protected and boosted because it's so popular.

Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
Posted - 2009.07.22 16:53:00 - [199]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Ah, the old "give us what we want or we'll quit and take our dollars with us" routine. I'm only surprised it took until page 7 to appear tbh.


Hey I don't like it anymore than you do, but just because I do not like it does not mean it is false.

Decarus
Amarr
Apostlecorp inc.
Posted - 2009.07.22 16:56:00 - [200]
 

When are you freeloaders going to understand that you're not going to get your way, all the time, forever. I bet that somewhere down the line you'll realize that you were just hurting your own cause. Something similar to when miners realized that they had just fought the good fight to introduce can-flipping into the game.

On to the real point:
I doubt anyone reading this has a clue as to which side I'm addressing.
What does that tell you?

You know that if it doesn't tell you anything you're probably not as smart as me. Laughing

So think a bit harder.





That's right.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.07.22 16:59:00 - [201]
 

Originally by: Decarus
When are you freeloaders going to understand that you're not going to get your way, all the time, forever. I bet that somewhere down the line you'll realize that you were just hurting your own cause. Something similar to when miners realized that they had just fought the good fight to introduce can-flipping into the game.

On to the real point:
I doubt anyone reading this has a clue as to which side I'm addressing.
What does that tell you?

You know that if it doesn't tell you anything you're probably not as smart as me. Laughing

So think a bit harder.





That's right.



You're not as smart as your mommy tells you you are.

Decarus
Amarr
Apostlecorp inc.
Posted - 2009.07.22 17:02:00 - [202]
 

But I'm every bit as awesome as your mom says I am.

See, I can do ad hominem too!
But you knew that since I put it in my earlier post so no one would have to listen to what I say and feel bad about themselves.

Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
Posted - 2009.07.22 17:02:00 - [203]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Mendolus

Obviously if even 5% of mission runners eventually unsubscribe from the game because they cannot do an L4 mission without someone salvaging their wrecks (assuming ninja salvaging continues to become more and more popular just like Falcons, Piracy, Lofty Scams, Nano Fits, etc. etc. etc.) while they are incapable of doing anything about it, CCP is going to take action. Please tell me why they would not?




I'd be very careful about making this argument if I were you. If you're saying that the fact that so many people engaging in ninja-salvaging is a sign that the profession is ipso facto unbalanced... what about the fact that such a huge majority of people make their ISK missioning?

And really you're trying to have it both ways:

(1) Ninja ratting is too popular therefore it needs nerfing
(2) Mission running must be protected and boosted because it's so popular.


Yes, mission running is so popular because A) the mineral market easily supports it, B) it's too easy in the long term and C) pirates drove what would have been low sec dwellers out long ago, so what else are they going to do?

I am saying that mission running has a caveat, it is a built-in mechanic, not a behavioral affect like ninja salvaging.

Nothing was wrong with suicide ganking either until so many people started doing it.

PvP or competition in general is fun for ALL parties involved until there are loopholes, and these loopholes are fine until everyone catches on and starts using them. Ninja salvaging is just another loophole, and eventually CCP will not be able to ignore it anymore.

I like variety, I like competition, I like the occasional salvager in a mission (of the few I do) so I can only hope he is in an NPC corporation and flips my can, and I have a PvP ship on standby, but if I cannot be entertained by the game except in a way that others force me to, there is a problem. There must be reciprocation in competitive gameplay, and thus far ninja salvaging has none. It is behavioral, not syntactic.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.07.22 17:06:00 - [204]
 

Originally by: Mendolus
Originally by: Malcanis
Ah, the old "give us what we want or we'll quit and take our dollars with us" routine. I'm only surprised it took until page 7 to appear tbh.


Hey I don't like it anymore than you do, but just because I do not like it does not mean it is false.


So let me get this straight:

CCP introduce salvaging
CCP explicitly state right from the start that anyone can salvage any wreck

CCP repeatedly confirm that this is what they want to happen, because they want to create a new profession

CCP explicitly say that salvage was not intended to increase mission running rewards


(CCP PrismX loses his temper and asks how many times people are going to ask the same question and get the same answer: that salvage is free to the finder)

You think that you're solely entitled to salvage some wrecks

You'll quit if CCP dont reverse the policy that they've explicitly stated right from the very beginning.


I'm sorry, but it's difficult to interpret this any other way than you extorting from CCP extra mission rewards that, to paraphrase the dev "no-one with any sense would say that hi-sec missioning needs".

If you're genuinely serious about the risk/reward thing, then support my proposal to make mission deadspaces lo-sec, and let the cards fall where they may.

Or did you mean only that other people should have to take risks to get rewards, while mission runners get to shoot untanked destroyers at will?

CCP Prism X


Gallente
C C P
C C P Alliance
Posted - 2009.07.22 17:10:00 - [205]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
(CCP PrismX loses his temper and asks how many times people are going to ask the same question and get the same answer: that salvage is free to the finder)


Hey! I'm lurking here you know!

But I've come to accept these threads as my friend. It always ends (well, it never ends) with my post count going up... through proxy. Laughing

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.07.22 17:11:00 - [206]
 

Originally by: Mendolus
Ninja salvaging is just another loophole, and eventually CCP will not be able to ignore it anymore.


You keep saying this as if it were inarguably true, but CCP keep saying that it's exactly what they had in mind.

I wonder why you think you know more about what CCP want than CCP?


Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.07.22 17:12:00 - [207]
 

Originally by: CCP Prism X
Originally by: Malcanis
(CCP PrismX loses his temper and asks how many times people are going to ask the same question and get the same answer: that salvage is free to the finder)


Hey! I'm lurking here you know!

But I've come to accept these threads as my friend. It always ends (well, it never ends) with my post count going up... through proxy. Laughing



OMGNOTANOTHERALT
Posted - 2009.07.22 17:20:00 - [208]
 

Edited by: OMGNOTANOTHERALT on 22/07/2009 17:21:08
I just don't see the problem here, at all. I've ran missions in Motsu and a couple of smaller hubs and only get a couple of ninja attempts every day, at the very most, out of 5 or more missions.

Best way to deal with them? Chill out and ignore them. There's nothing they can do to you, and half of them are just trying to get you to shoot at them so they can come back and kill you, and if you don't shoot them they will give up and try someone else.

Ofc I've been on the other side as well, ninja-salvaging is quite profitable, and it's always fun when I get a CNR kill because someone was daft enough to shoot me.

For people too uptight to just let it go, shoot the wrecks. Sure you can't get them, but neither can they. (Although what's the point then, other than spightfulness/bloodymindedness).

Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
Posted - 2009.07.22 17:32:00 - [209]
 

Edited by: Mendolus on 22/07/2009 17:39:35
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Mendolus
Originally by: Malcanis
Ah, the old "give us what we want or we'll quit and take our dollars with us" routine. I'm only surprised it took until page 7 to appear tbh.


Hey I don't like it anymore than you do, but just because I do not like it does not mean it is false.


So let me get this straight:

CCP introduce salvaging
CCP explicitly state right from the start that anyone can salvage any wreck

CCP repeatedly confirm that this is what they want to happen, because they want to create a new profession

CCP explicitly say that salvage was not intended to increase mission running rewards


(CCP PrismX loses his temper and asks how many times people are going to ask the same question and get the same answer: that salvage is free to the finder)

You think that you're solely entitled to salvage some wrecks

You'll quit if CCP dont reverse the policy that they've explicitly stated right from the very beginning.


I'm sorry, but it's difficult to interpret this any other way than you extorting from CCP extra mission rewards that, to paraphrase the dev "no-one with any sense would say that hi-sec missioning needs".

If you're genuinely serious about the risk/reward thing, then support my proposal to make mission deadspaces lo-sec, and let the cards fall where they may.

Or did you mean only that other people should have to take risks to get rewards, while mission runners get to shoot untanked destroyers at will?


Hey, I am just telling it like it is. CCP, you, me, and anyone with half a brain probably all agree that salvaging is a good game mechanic in its current form, but that does not stop it from being abused to the point that CCP has to grudgingly admit it needs to change the mechanic. I can wish that not only the ninja salvagers but the mission runners themselves can all agree on doing things in moderation, but let's face it, people look at their wallets first, and the principle of the matter second. There is rarely any foresight for the people who push for these changes, as someone pointed out in this thread concerning can flipping and aggression. People want what they do not understand and abuse what they have already been given, this is the way it is. Until that stops you can continue to expect that CCP will be forced into making changes to any game mechanic that gets abused via becoming so prevalent as to counteract the player experience or more importantly the subscriber base in any negative fashion. It's stupid, but people do it to themselves, both the salvagers and the runners. If they cannot act in moderation, someone will eventually have to force them to do so.

And for clarification, I generate income by ratting in 0.0, and that is certainly a profession that has many caveats.

Bestofworst Worstofbest
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2009.07.22 17:44:00 - [210]
 

Again, the whole argument of Risk vs Reward is so over done that it makes me sick just to talk about it. But if you must compare the two:

Mission running:

Risk - Can get suicide ganked, can get ninja salvaged.
Reward - General saftey, can autopilot nearly everywhere between missions, great rewards.

Ninja Salvaging:

Reward - Salvage, maybe some tears.
Risk - Can warp in on a mission with crap salvage, can warp in on Recon 3 of 3, can have their wrecks blown up, can become hated and hunted ("IM HIRING MERCS AFTER U!").

But please, I know that whenever someone uses the Risk vs Reward argument, they only do it to remove their risk and just get a reward.


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