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Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.05.09 16:57:00 - [121]
 

Originally by: Milla Jovo
Why are missions scannable in the first place?
Because they're not supposed to be safe.

Milla Jovo
Posted - 2009.05.09 17:03:00 - [122]
 

Edited by: Milla Jovo on 09/05/2009 17:07:28
Edited by: Milla Jovo on 09/05/2009 17:06:10
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Milla Jovo
Why are missions scannable in the first place?
Because they're not supposed to be safe.


But ninja's don't make it any unsafer, the only unsafe thing is the npc's

Ninja's don't even flash red.

You are using the wrong analogy



Cool


Concorduck
Gallente
Posted - 2009.05.09 17:12:00 - [123]
 

Originally by: Milla Jovo
Edited by: Milla Jovo on 09/05/2009 17:07:28
Edited by: Milla Jovo on 09/05/2009 17:06:10
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Milla Jovo
Why are missions scannable in the first place?
Because they're not supposed to be safe.


But ninja's don't make it any unsafer, the only unsafe thing is the npc's

Ninja's don't even flash red.

You are using the wrong analogy



Cool




Rats don't flash red either.

bitters much
Nekkid Inc.
Posted - 2009.05.09 17:34:00 - [124]
 

No one forces you to leave wrecks behind. The "usual" mission ship has 8 highs so you have allways 2 spares for traktor and salvager.
The thing that ticks you off is the fact that "salvaging on the fly" would drop your isk/hour ratio therefor you whine here because your current "rush mission -> come back with salvage/loot ship" isn`t a 100% safe income cos someone could salvage the wrecks you left behind.

Stop undocking then no one can harm you and "your" wrecks any longer.

Milla Jovo
Posted - 2009.05.09 17:59:00 - [125]
 

Edited by: Milla Jovo on 09/05/2009 18:01:16
Dude Rats never flash red,,, they are already red.

Ninja salvagers are scum of the universe. They are like the trash diggers in RL that go through my trash cans before the trash man comes to take the stuff away.

Think of them as the being on the low end of the IQ scale, just picking up what ever other pilots leave behind. Cuz that’s all they seem to be good at. Otherwise they’d be doing other stuff. Like there own missions.

If they actually talked to an agent then they would get the salvage and the loot and the bounties and the reward from the agent and also the bonus. But they don’t have a high enough IQ to understand this. So they just take what they can.

I use a 2 account for my salvager. So I run the missions pretty fast but if the ninja’s bother u too much u can look around and find good agents at less populated systems, it takes looking around but u can find them. For me I like the added difficult level in trying to salvage before the Trash Diggers show up. That’s what ninja’s should be called, Trash Diggers. They call themselves ninja’s for self glamorization. LOL

On a side note, I some times wonder how old some of the posters are in RL?


Cool

edit....Wow, that bad word filter sucks!!!! that was not even a bad word

Cool

Zey Nadar
Gallente
Unknown Soldiers
Posted - 2009.05.29 13:42:00 - [126]
 

Edited by: Zey Nadar on 29/05/2009 13:42:10
Originally by: Tippia
The effort to unlock and complete the mission is balanced against the rewards for doing high-level missions and killing higher-level rats (although some would indeed argue that this part isn't balanced and that these rewards are far too high for the effort).

The salvage is a separate component and not part of those rewards.


No it is not separate, because the salvage is not only a considerably large source of income in addition to the bounties (there are none for rogue drones for example) and it WOULDNT exist if the mission runner hadn't unlocked and cleared the mission! The reason that salvage exists in there in the first place is because of the work of the mission runner. The only reason that it isn't the 'property' of the missionrunner is some wacko in-character story reason which is imo, quite flaky.

I dont know about you, but for me the mission rewards by themselves wouldnt make missions worth doing.

Zey Nadar
Gallente
Unknown Soldiers
Posted - 2009.05.29 13:44:00 - [127]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Milla Jovo
Why are missions scannable in the first place?
Because they're not supposed to be safe.


But salvaging other peoples wrecks completely safely is not a problem for you?

Southern Suzy
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.05.29 13:47:00 - [128]
 

just dont use hubs, plenty of other places with good agents where there are no ninja salvagers

Von Kapiche
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.05.29 14:03:00 - [129]
 

Sleeper AI will solve everything, if they get it right. More risk, more variety, more fun.

Stop being so anal about ISK/hr & treat someone in your mission as some competition in a little game of it's own. I like to see if I can get them blown up, wrecks my earning speed, but so what? it's something different to do. I managed to pod someone with an exploding building, where else in highsec can you blow someone's pod without any repercussions? :)

wowtard
Posted - 2009.05.29 15:06:00 - [130]
 

"Is that...? No! Son of a *****! A ninja salvager! I'm going to, going to, to, to t t t b b b-bwhaaaaaa, bwaaaaaaaaaa bwaaaaaaaaaaa, bwaaaaaaaaaaa! *sniffle* Booooooooohooohooo! Booooooooohooohooo! Bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!! Why?! Why?! Booooooooohoooooooo booooooooooooooooohooooooooooo. Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!! Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!! Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!"


Thanks for bringing it to the forums. Again.

Antoine Roquentin
Malum.
Posted - 2009.05.29 15:23:00 - [131]
 

I have the perfect solution: move all level 4 missions to low sec. Then you could just shoot the ninja looters.

Schayol Sunkeeper
Imperial Crusade Syndicate
Posted - 2009.05.29 15:25:00 - [132]
 

Originally by: Milla Jovo
Edited by: Milla Jovo on 09/05/2009 18:01:16
Dude Rats never flash red,,, they are already red.

Ninja salvagers are scum of the universe. They are like the trash diggers in RL that go through my trash cans before the trash man comes to take the stuff away.

Think of them as the being on the low end of the IQ scale, just picking up what ever other pilots leave behind. Cuz that’s all they seem to be good at. Otherwise they’d be doing other stuff. Like there own missions.

If they actually talked to an agent then they would get the salvage and the loot and the bounties and the reward from the agent and also the bonus. But they don’t have a high enough IQ to understand this. So they just take what they can.

I use a 2 account for my salvager. So I run the missions pretty fast but if the ninja’s bother u too much u can look around and find good agents at less populated systems, it takes looking around but u can find them. For me I like the added difficult level in trying to salvage before the Trash Diggers show up. That’s what ninja’s should be called, Trash Diggers. They call themselves ninja’s for self glamorization. LOL

On a side note, I some times wonder how old some of the posters are in RL?


Cool

edit....Wow, that bad word filter sucks!!!! that was not even a bad word

Cool

your resistance only makes my ***** harder

Drunk Driver
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2009.05.29 15:26:00 - [133]
 

Originally by: Antoine Roquentin
I have the perfect solution: move all level 4 missions to low sec. Then you could just shoot the ninja looters.




I expect you wouldn't last long enough to generate much loot in low sec.

Which in a weird sort of way solves the problem of ninja looting.

Laughing

RevJim
Gallente
Onanists-R-us
Posted - 2009.05.29 15:45:00 - [134]
 

A am a mission runner, in a hub, my missions attract salvage thieves about 1 in 3 missions. Personally I have no problem with so called ninja salvagers, it is allowed by CCP as a mini-profession.

However, when they steal the loot and consequently become flagged, there is a 99% chance they have a corpie standing by in a CS or bigger waiting for you to shoot them, they do not steal loot for isk, they steal it to try and gank mission runners knowing full well there is almost zero risk, PvE fitted BS's are no match for a PvP ship, no scram and usually no web therefore no danger.

For this reason I usually allow ninja salvagers unless I'm bored, then I play the 'wait till he's nearly at the wreck... BOOM! wreck gone', rinse repeat until he sods off.

However if he steals loot and becomes flagged, there is little I can do about it, by the time I dock and swap ships they are long gone. If I shoot, I die as his buddy warps in to kill me. A thorny dilema, shoot or not?

As for the carebear tears from the "It's MY salvage!!" crowd, how about having wrecks that flag until the mission runner leaves the area? I suspect this would cause more mission runners to complain about the loot stealing/gank issue.

There isn't a solution, so live with it. Or as some posters have pointed out, mission elsewhere not in a hub.

RevJim

Elithria
Gallente
Dark Nexxus
Posted - 2009.05.29 16:18:00 - [135]
 

Not this thread again. It always ends in the same way.

Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2009.05.29 16:29:00 - [136]
 

Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 29/05/2009 16:30:24
Originally by: Isakova
First off let me say, I've done it and I've had it done to me. Since resubbing my second account it's never an issue but my question is as follows.

Generally overpowered in EVE means far too easy to do, profitable/useful with very little risk. People are trying to get L4s pushed to low sec for this very reason.

People got Falcons nerfed for this reason. Webbers, drones too.

Ninja salvaging. Probing out deadspace is so easy newbies do it with great success. It doesn't flagging you to salvage another person wreck (I know CCPs stand on this, it makes sense) it is intentionally done in these unbalanced L4 missions (;)) because noone can aggro them, and if they choose to steal some nice drop, they will be away before they've even lost 50% shields because no mission runner carries a scram.

I don't know what to suggest as its a fun game mechanic, but its completely risk free, ridiculously easy to do, and in many cases highly profitable. L4 mission loot and salvage without the investment in ships / time / standing gains/losses to get them. I tried it with my second account while running an L4 mission and it was easy. This is far too open for abuse, and is getting to the point where theres 2 ninjas for every 10 mission runner in a hub.


Ninjasalvaging and ninjalooting IS imbalanced, you're right. But all the imbalance stems from level 4 missions. When missions get the nerf they deserve, ninja salvaging and ninjalooting will be nerfed.

Though missionrunners -could- carry a scram if they really wanted to.

Quote:
If I shoot, I die as his buddy warps in to kill me. A thorny dilema, shoot or not?


Should relearn the aggro rules there champ.

Marlenus
Ironfleet Towing And Salvage
Posted - 2009.05.29 16:46:00 - [137]
 

By the Jovians, are there still people in 2009 who think salvagers in their missions might be "an oversight"? Who still use terms like "salvage thieves", even?

It must be time for this:

Per CCP Mitnal:
Originally by: CCP Mitnal
"Our policy on this is extremely clear... Salvaging is a mini-profession within EVE and does not constitute stealing."

Per GM Faolchu :
Originally by: GM Faolchu
Salvaging other peoples wrecks.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage.
Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up.

Per Senior GM Ytterbium :
Originally by: GM Ytterbium
Players are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will ... and doing so is not considered as an exploit.

Per CCP Prism X :
Originally by: CCP Prism X
Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing.

(These quotes are kept handy for your convenience at Ironfleet.com.)

baltec1
Posted - 2009.05.29 16:54:00 - [138]
 

Originally by: Milla Jovo

But ninja's don't make it any unsafer, the only unsafe thing is the npc's

Ninja's don't even flash red.

You are using the wrong analogy




Depends. I know of a guy who made billions killing mission runners in high sec mission hubs.

skye orionis
Posted - 2009.05.29 17:17:00 - [139]
 

Originally by: baltec1
Depends. I know of a guy who made billions killing dumb mission runners who didn't understand game mechanicsin high sec mission hubs.


Fixed that for ya.

The only thing about ninja salvaging that needs nerfed is the number of people whining about it.

Schayol Sunkeeper
Imperial Crusade Syndicate
Posted - 2009.05.29 17:20:00 - [140]
 

Originally by: skye orionis
Fixed that for ya.

The only thing about ninja salvaging that needs nerfed is the number of people whining about it.

aggro timer would be okay though, but would result in more mission runner whiners than ever before. I would proceed to hijack missions and if getting shot, come back in a gankship ... faction fitted battleships make epic salvage + loot

maybe that's a way to balance out lvl 4 highsec missioning ^^

Viqer Fell
Minmatar
RETRIBUTIONS.
Legion of The Damned.
Posted - 2009.05.29 17:36:00 - [141]
 

Is this stupid thread still going?

"I don't know what to suggest as its a fun game mechanic, but its completely risk free, ridiculously easy to do, and in many cases highly profitable. L4 mission loot and salvage without the investment in ships / time / standing gains/losses to get them. I tried it with my second account while running an L4 mission and it was easy. This is far too open for abuse, and is getting to the point where theres 2 ninjas for every 10 mission runner in a hub."

And?

So what. Doing L4 missions in a hub is seen as purely risk free Isk to start off with so let's just treat this as a mild way of vaguely beginning to balance things up. Come back when you have something serious to cry about. It's not like this topic hasn't been flogged to death a bazillion times before and ignored repeatedly as a non-issue by CCP but I'm glad you yet again raised it.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.05.29 18:06:00 - [142]
 

Originally by: Zey Nadar
No it is not separate,
Yes it is. Salvage was introduced a lo-o-ong time after missions, as a semi-profession on the side. It has nothing to do with missions at all.
Quote:
I dont know about you, but for me the mission rewards by themselves wouldnt make missions worth doing.
That's why you get bounties, loot rights, LP, and standings gain as well. You are completely compensated for your efforts through those — if you can't survive and/or make enough money without the salvage, you're doing something horribly wrong.

Also, necroing threads is bad, mmmkay?

Undecillion
Posted - 2009.07.21 04:03:00 - [143]
 

As I do make a decent amount of ISK from salvaging my wrecks, it does bug me a bit when they are salvaged by others.

One possible solution that I suggest is to place a timer, say 30 minutes, on the wreck. If you, the mission runner, have not salvaged your wreck before the 30 minute time period is up, the wreck is then up for grabs. The ninja salvager cannot salvage the wreck during the 30 minute time period or they become flagged.

Just a thought. Like or dislike?

Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
Posted - 2009.07.21 08:48:00 - [144]
 

Originally by: Isakova
I can probe out mission space, get in, bm it, warp out, get my salvager, warp back again, start salvaging while the mission owner has full room aggro.

If I see his drones heading back to him, I know he's on his way out. I can loot too, I know he wont shoot me because it's futile, would be quicker to warp out and hope rats give aggro. There's really nothing a person can do to counter it. I think if probing out deadspace was made harder, or riskier, I don't care about the changes to the mechanics, but it the sheer ease of it and the amount of newbies doing it, it's become ridiculous.


When regular NPCs get AI like sleepers, fun times will be had :).

Tauranon
Gallente
Weeesearch
Posted - 2009.07.21 09:18:00 - [145]
 

I don't see how ninja salvaging is unbalanced at all.

Realistically the mission runner recieves at least 50% of the reward straight up for killing the NPC, direct to wallet via bounties. A miner has to collect and move 100% of the reward to a station to get any reward at all.

I believe that ninja salvagers entering mission spaces is a design feature that CCP want in the game, because they want contention between players, even in highsec. The economy relies on contention and destruction to function. If missions were meant to be sharded, they would have been sharded long ago for hub performance reasons.

Mission runners can always make the choice of yield (pure dps fit) vs protected income (sacrificing 2 highslots to collect the loot salvage as it falls). Those that get extensively ninja salvaged, do so because they made a conscious yield choice, for which there should be a consequence.

My general behavior is to run my missions in dps fit, and return to salvage (ie I accept the yield consequence). If I am aware of a salvager in my mission, I'll fetch my salvage boat and compete (very effectively) for the remaining salvage, tractor beams + AB > ninja boat for salvage collection effiency.

I also know how many gates till NPCs, and I can also switch 1 salvager for a tractor, given that my salvage efficiency is now partially dependant on how many wrecks I am dragging away from the other guy. (its also fun to pull the strings, some chase!).

The only thing that irritates me about the process is that the deadspace MWD restriction doesn't lift if I hand the mission in with a ninja in my deadspace that I was unaware of, which can leave me incorrectly fitted (ie MWD instead of AB fitted).

Amerilia
Posted - 2009.07.21 09:20:00 - [146]
 

A solution: Use a T3 ship with low signature radius.
Most Ninjas dont bother scanning it down.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.07.21 10:21:00 - [147]
 

Originally by: Drunk Driver
Originally by: Antoine Roquentin
I have the perfect solution: move all level 4 missions to low sec. Then you could just shoot the ninja looters.




I expect you wouldn't last long enough to generate much loot in low sec.

Which in a weird sort of way solves the problem of ninja looting.

Laughing


Um yes... that's what he said.

Robert Caldera
Posted - 2009.07.21 10:30:00 - [148]
 

Edited by: Robert Caldera on 21/07/2009 10:30:38
Originally by: Isakova
I don't know what to suggest as its a fun game mechanic, but its completely risk free, ridiculously easy to do, and in many cases highly profitable.


like missions too.

Ninja salvaging is fine, thanks for the keeping the salvage-rant running Twisted Evil
****ole!!!

Irida Mershkov
Gallente
The Reformed
Chaos Theory Alliance
Posted - 2009.07.21 11:03:00 - [149]
 

Originally by: Drunk Driver
Originally by: Antoine Roquentin
I have the perfect solution: move all level 4 missions to low sec. Then you could just shoot the ninja looters.




I expect you wouldn't last long enough to generate much loot in low sec.

Which in a weird sort of way solves the problem of ninja looting.

Laughing

Few jumps from OMS, I went afk at a belt in one of the first belts in a usually-travelled system, went down for a cup of tea, came back up (forgot I was in low-sec) got distracted.

Three hours later? still there. Rats can't touch me. Cool (well they had me into 92% armour but that's beside the point).

Chantilly Layce
Proper Villains
Posted - 2009.07.21 11:11:00 - [150]
 

Originally by: Isakova
Yes nice cut and paste.

Completely overlooking my point.

Ninja salvaging in mission deadspace is pretty much consequence free, not in an asteroid belt.


Perhaps it's the ability of anyone to scan down a mission site that you find distressing.

In which case, the answer would be the same, ie, game mechanics are working as intended. Move along.


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