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Esk Esme
Caldari
Smack Crack and Pot
Posted - 2009.05.08 12:38:00 - [91]
 

more tear's of joy

think ill come salvage your mission homw just to bug u for kicks l8tr 2day lol

all your salvage belongs to us WAAAA

more tears pls OP

Draxyl Icharu
Gallente
Icharu Industries
Posted - 2009.05.08 12:54:00 - [92]
 

Originally by: THE L0CK
I feel I belong in this thread.


Brilliant! +1

Ruu
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2009.05.08 13:01:00 - [93]
 


Quite a few people here stated that Salvaging is a profession.

Quite a few people in a thread I started about creating a 'dedicated' Salvaging ship (not some make shift job) said that Salvaging is NOT a profession.

So how about some clarification here?

If it is a profession, I want to see dedicated salvager ships please.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.05.08 13:04:00 - [94]
 

Originally by: Ruu

Quite a few people here stated that Salvaging is a profession.

Quite a few people in a thread I started about creating a 'dedicated' Salvaging ship (not some make shift job) said that Salvaging is NOT a profession.

So how about some clarification here?

If it is a profession, I want to see dedicated salvager ships please.


Sounds good. T2 destroyer with hacking/salvage/archeo bonuses plx!

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.05.08 13:12:00 - [95]
 

Originally by: Zaknussem
Edited by: Zaknussem on 08/05/2009 12:14:08
The solution to these problems are coming, but it'll be a while until it shows, with Ambulation at the earliest.

The Sleepers are a test of the new NPC AI. This AI will eventually make its way into missions. When it does, expect ninja looting/salvaging to pretty much disappear, as rats will now target new ships that enter the mission zone. Better yet, more NPC ships may spawn because of the new ship entering into the mission.

Direct result? Risk will be involved in missions. Problem solved.

L4 missions will only be moved into low-sec if CCP are incompetent.

EDIT: Typo.


I hope you're right, as I get much of my ISK from missioning and it's insanely dull.

Neamus
Posted - 2009.05.08 13:28:00 - [96]
 

Edited by: Neamus on 08/05/2009 13:38:54
Originally by: Isakova
I can probe out mission space, get in, bm it, warp out, get my salvager, warp back again, start salvaging while the mission owner has full room aggro.

If I see his drones heading back to him, I know he's on his way out. I can loot too, I know he wont shoot me because it's futile, would be quicker to warp out and hope rats give aggro. There's really nothing a person can do to counter it. I think if probing out deadspace was made harder, or riskier, I don't care about the changes to the mechanics, but it the sheer ease of it and the amount of newbies doing it, it's become ridiculous.


Its annoying for the mission runner, and no doubt highly amusing for the ninja. When ever I've been ninja'd I've found it irritating, but it at least adds a little excitement to an otherwise dull activity.

If you want to cut it out the three main ways are...

1) Salvager alt (Destroyer or Battlecruiser are ideal)

2) Train for a Marauder (everything a mission runner needs in a single ship). If you cant afford one or just don't want one, they try a Dominix, one of the best and most versatile mission running BS in EvE.

3) Stop being school girls and move out to 0.0, scan some plexes and start earning proper isk. I finished one last night with a couple of corp m8s which dropped 2.6bil in loot.

All those trying to argue that there aren't any counters are wrong, you just need to play a little smarter and before you know it the problem goes away and your income per hour increases to boot. Happy days.

Emerhyz
Posted - 2009.05.08 13:38:00 - [97]
 

Edited by: Emerhyz on 08/05/2009 13:39:08
Do as I do, As the ninja salvager starts flying around, blow up all wrecks. If you can't have the loot, don't let him have the loot.

New Idea for CCP:

Have cruiser sized drones with their own npc salvaging modules come into missions from time to time (spawn them). This way, EVERYONE experiences ninja salvagers. This way, everyone who salvages wrecks have drone issues (Kill them first?). Maybe they'll even have weapons.

Oh the many ways to **** people off.

Edit: Added last comment.

Jer Bu
Posted - 2009.05.08 21:38:00 - [98]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Edited by: Tippia on 08/05/2009 07:35:13
Originally by: Isakova
I guarantee if you do 10 missions in a l4 hub, near half of them would be interrupted.
No. And I would know, because I do missions in just about all of them. I was last interrupted in July… (in Dodixie no less — hello fellas! Razz)
Originally by: Junko Togawa
I can't present a coherent argument because I know I'm wrong and don't know how to play EVE Embarassed
Counter-fixed.
Originally by: Jer Bu
Solution does not need to be complicated. Let me shoot at someone who salvages a wreck I created. Let me choose whether to engage or not. It might even force me to refit a little more PvP on my missions...Everyone wins.
Here's a better solution: stop assuming you're entitled to anything other than your insurance payout in a PvP game. If you can't beat the other guy to the wreck, even though you are first on site and even though know exactly when and where it's going to pop into existance, you're doing something horribly wrong. If you can't beat the other guy to the punch, you didn't deserve it.

Making cargo flagged and salvage not is counter intuitive. Stop assuming that just because something is one way now, that it is the right way. By your logic, NOTHING should be flagged. I like that logic, but it is counter to CCP's current rule set.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.05.08 21:50:00 - [99]
 

Originally by: Jer Bu
By your logic, NOTHING should be flagged. I like that logic, but it is counter to CCP's current rule set.
Not just by my logic — by every other logic concerning wreck ownership. NPC loot is the anomaly here since it gives aggression to people who have nothing to do with the contents of the wreck. It makes more sense to remove loot-theft aggression than any other change.

Herzog Wolfhammer
Gallente
Sigma Special Tactics Group
Posted - 2009.05.08 23:05:00 - [100]
 

I am confused.

So many times I find a den of serpentis of a drone pile, clean it all up, and then get on local and say "Hey, lot's of stuff floating around here and I don't salvage".

This is high sec I speak of. Not asking for cost. If more wrecks are salvaged, more materials means more production that brings the prices down. Austrian Economics 101.

And....
no answer.

This must be mainly an issue for noob-space hubs or systems with corps involved in production activities with lots of alts.


Anne Cormache
Posted - 2009.05.08 23:37:00 - [101]
 

So, after four pages of whining, it comes down to: "more rules to protect my elistist @ss's salvage." Got a better solution: don't like the rules in place in Empire? Get out of Empire, and go somewhere that has no rules. Problem solved.

Chraiz
Gallente
Garoun Investment Bank
Posted - 2009.05.09 00:29:00 - [102]
 

Honestly while it might be annoying the term salvage in itself suggests first come, first served rights.

Bullageddon
Caldari
Posted - 2009.05.09 01:57:00 - [103]
 

Originally by: Chraiz
Honestly while it might be annoying the term salvage in itself suggests first come, first served rights.


logic? NOT IN THIS THREAD!

Sanre Echei
Posted - 2009.05.09 05:39:00 - [104]
 

I think what Isakova means is that salvaging allows a character to make millions while only days old. Even if their ship gets blown up what they lose isn't even one-tenth of what they can salvage in a whole mission. It's risk-free instant millions for noobs. I don't mind ninja salvaging, but getting the salvaging skill should take longer since it gives profits on par with many months of skilltraining in mining/missioning skills. It's simply out of tune in the amount of profit you can get for your time spent in other activities.

E Vile
Posted - 2009.05.09 07:30:00 - [105]
 

Edited by: E Vile on 09/05/2009 07:33:46
No mission runner carries a scram?
Speak for yourself. Some players know how to watch their own back more then you give credit for.

I do however feel I should have the right to shoot someone salvaging my wrecks just like stealing loot. People need to be flagged for salavging others wrecks.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.05.09 08:01:00 - [106]
 

Originally by: Sanre Echei
I think what Isakova means is that salvaging allows a character to make millions while only days old. Even if their ship gets blown up what they lose isn't even one-tenth of what they can salvage in a whole mission. It's risk-free instant millions for noobs. I don't mind ninja salvaging, but getting the salvaging skill should take longer since it gives profits on par with many months of skilltraining in mining/missioning skills. It's simply out of tune in the amount of profit you can get for your time spent in other activities.


Hi-sec missioners don't get any right whatsoever to complain about risk/reward.

The same illogical rules that protect vastly expensive solo, semi-AFK faction BS shooting hordes of pirate fleets in "safe" space are the same illogical rules that protect ninja salvagers.

Once again: if you want to claim all the salvage, mission in lo-sec/0.0, then you can shoot ninja nubs all you like.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.05.09 08:02:00 - [107]
 

Originally by: Sanre Echei
I think what Isakova means is that salvaging allows a character to make millions while only days old.

[…]

It's simply out of tune in the amount of profit you can get for your time spent in other activities.
Trading.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.05.09 08:02:00 - [108]
 

Edited by: Malcanis on 09/05/2009 08:02:42
Originally by: E Vile
Edited by: E Vile on 09/05/2009 07:33:46
No mission runner carries a scram?
Speak for yourself. Some players know how to watch their own back more then you give credit for.

I do however feel I should have the right to shoot someone salvaging my wrecks just like stealing loot. People need to be flagged for salavging others wrecks.


I feel I should have the right to shoot any gallante pilot, regardless of where he is or what he's done. People need to be flagged for being at war.

Oh wait, that's right: my "feelings" don't come into it. It's the law that counts.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.05.09 08:03:00 - [109]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Sanre Echei
I think what Isakova means is that salvaging allows a character to make millions while only days old.

[…]

It's simply out of tune in the amount of profit you can get for your time spent in other activities.
Trading.


Scamming

Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
Posted - 2009.05.09 08:04:00 - [110]
 

Reading between the lines here, it sounds as though the OP is saying 'My level 4 missions aren't secure enough and don't pay enough'.

Compared to most other isk sources in the game, they're fantastically unbalanced. None of the others has the potential to support hundreds of players in a single system, all earning 20m-30m per hour. The phenomenon of ninja salvaging is a symptom, not a problem in itself.

I see nothing wrong with giving new players an easy way to make some isk if it helps get them into the game. Eventually they'll either get bored with salvaging, or find something more profitable/interesting to do.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.05.09 11:37:00 - [111]
 

Originally by: Sanre Echei
I think what Isakova means is that salvaging allows a character to make millions while only days old. Even if their ship gets blown up what they lose isn't even one-tenth of what they can salvage in a whole mission. It's risk-free instant millions for noobs. I don't mind ninja salvaging, but getting the salvaging skill should take longer since it gives profits on par with many months of skilltraining in mining/missioning skills. It's simply out of tune in the amount of profit you can get for your time spent in other activities.


I'm not sure that's an argument you'll want to introduce, since level 4 missions pay even more than ninja salvaging...

Spurty
Caldari
V0LTA
VOLTA Corp
Posted - 2009.05.09 12:15:00 - [112]
 

i've ninja looted lots of missions and usually, the person running the mission never returns anyway.

Also, some mission runners blitz missions.

What does that mean? Means its freaking risky lol.

some rooms still have lots of towers and ships in them. There is plenty of risk ninja looting if you loot the wrong person's mission left overs.

Angel Extras are the best to salvage (Alloy trit bars = isk!)

Suitonia
Gallente
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2009.05.09 12:38:00 - [113]
 

Making Mission deadspace inaccessible or harder is a damn terrible idea and has many knock-on effects such as making mission runners invincible in 0.0/lowsec etc.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.05.09 13:05:00 - [114]
 

Originally by: Suitonia
Making Mission deadspace inaccessible or harder is a damn terrible idea and has many knock-on effects such as making mission runners invincible in 0.0/lowsec etc.


yeah I think that's pretty much what they're after.

Gunnanmon
Gallente
PURPLE.
Posted - 2009.05.09 15:27:00 - [115]
 

Originally by: THE L0CK
I feel I belong in this thread.


iatl

Zey Nadar
Gallente
Unknown Soldiers
Posted - 2009.05.09 15:35:00 - [116]
 

Edited by: Zey Nadar on 09/05/2009 15:35:53
Originally by: Tippia
The current system is fair and balanced:

The mission runner can get the rewards for no risk — he just has to beat the salvager.
The salvager can get the rewards for no risk — he just has to beat the mission runner.


What the hell? First I say that I have never had my missions ninjasalvaged but above sentence is completely out of whack. The ninjasalvager is not affected by the rats whereas the missioner has not only seen the effort to unlock the mission agent by grinding standing whichever way, spawn the deadpsace that wouldnt otherwise exist, and fight the rats. Ninjasalvager spends few minutes probing the deadspace and shows up to reap the rewards with no danger whatsoever. Explain what is balanced in that scenario.

ps. I cant be bothered to mission myself, its too boring and not rewarding enough.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.05.09 15:50:00 - [117]
 

Originally by: Zey Nadar
The ninjasalvager is not affected by the rats whereas the missioner has not only seen the effort to unlock the mission agent by grinding standing whichever way, spawn the deadpsace that wouldnt otherwise exist, and fight the rats.
…and is, as mentioned numerous times, rewarded through the pre-existing mission rewards.
Quote:
Explain what is balanced in that scenario.
The effort to unlock and complete the mission is balanced against the rewards for doing high-level missions and killing higher-level rats (although some would indeed argue that this part isn't balanced and that these rewards are far too high for the effort).

The salvage is a separate component and not part of those rewards. The effort to get it is the same for both parties: train the skill, fit the module, be the first to reach the wreck (and it could be argued that this part actually isn't balanced either since the mission runner don't have to scan the things down).

So sure, maybe it could use some balancing: reduce the mission rewards and make it easier for ninja salvagers to find their targets.

Lianoras
Posted - 2009.05.09 15:51:00 - [118]
 

Edited by: Lianoras on 09/05/2009 16:00:55
I have one problem with ninja salvaging: return on investment.
It requires minimal isk and sp investment, isn't player skill intensive and provides huge rewards with minimal risk as long as the ninja pays a minimum of attention.

Salvaging doesn't flag and that's fine. But the risk vs reward balance is off here.

Possible solution: anyone coming into a mission gets partial aggro from rats. It's not a perfect solution as it would hurt gang mission runners, but it would be better than the current situation.


Edit: to answer the above trading and scamming both require way more player skill than ninja salvaging. The comparison isn't valid. Making significant money trading also requires serious capital. Ninja salvaging does not.

Eternum Praetorian
PWNED Factor
The Seventh Day
Posted - 2009.05.09 16:06:00 - [119]
 

So so many opinions....


But a max skilled probe/salvaging alt in an NPC corp can only be answered with a blaster fitted catalyst. This tactic will req you to up your sec status and thus can be done only so often. Not exactly balanced. The carebears whine about it... but then again the **** broke PVP'ers whine about them being carebears and rich as god.


CCP would only nerf it if there were a ridiculous abundance. I mean way way more then there is even now.



In the end EVE is a sim for life, and life more often then not is not fair. CCP is not going to do anything that will make ISk making in empire easier. They will however allow for small little nerfs and mechanics that will antagonize mission runners in the safety of empire.

Ninja salvaging + Low sec Battleship rats + scams in Jita all
= attempts to get people to have more risk in the game without the inevitable universal-wide rage quits that would follow a full blown LV 4 empire nerf.

Milla Jovo
Posted - 2009.05.09 16:51:00 - [120]
 

Why are missions scannable in the first place? Being able to scan mission runners never made sense to me. I have been playing for about 2 years and use a salvager alt whenever I run missions. This is not a whine. I usualy just ignore nija's the few time they have come into my missions.

Cool


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