open All Channels
seplocked EVE General Discussion
blankseplocked Is ninja looting an oversight in view of the nerf hammer?
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: first : previous : 1 2 [3] 4 5 6 7 8 9 ... : last (16)

Author Topic

Yonna Paris
Gallente
Hinata House
Posted - 2009.05.08 07:57:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: Isakova
I guarantee if you do 10 missions in a l4 hub, near half of them would be interrupted.


One-year-old-player here. I must be doing something wrong. About half of my L4's are done in hubs, and I have never had a -single- ninja salvager interrupting. They must not like me :(

Opinion: Everything is working as intended. Mission runners should either salvage on the fly to prevent ninja'ing (as I do), -or- stop whining and accept potential loss.

Small remark/suggestion: IMHO, CCP should remove the corp ticker and yellow color from wrecks to make absolutely clear they don't belong to anyone; ownership can be restored when the wreck spawns into a can. I think this would make the mechanism a bit more clear... There could be fleet/corp issues involved, though. And maybe this has been suggested before, I dunno. In that case, accept my apologies and ignore.

Researcher Anabiosis
Posted - 2009.05.08 07:57:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: Cutie Chaser

It is the lions job to run the hyenas off of his kill; if he'd rather share then feast then he dines with filth.



if you could explain that to Concord for us, that would be just swell.

Shammalamma Dingdong
Posted - 2009.05.08 08:02:00 - [63]
 

Wouldn't flagging them for salvaging like it is for looting make everyone (except the Ninja Salvagers) happy?

Mission runners get to protect their stuff (if they have the stomach for it, otherwise GTFO and stop whining) and bored PvPers and/or griefers would have another way besides can-flipping to try and pick fights/tumble n00bs.

I'm probably missing something basic (I usually am) but why is everyone so opposed to the idea that salvaging someone else's wrecks, if done right, could produce more fun if it were a flaggable offense?

Shammalamma Dingdong
Posted - 2009.05.08 08:05:00 - [64]
 

Originally by: Jer Bu
Solution does not need to be complicated. Let me shoot at someone who salvages a wreck I created. Let me choose whether to engage or not. It might even force me to refit a little more PvP on my missions...Everyone wins.


BINGO!

i should have read the whole thread before responding :P

Prodigiosus Proditio
Posted - 2009.05.08 08:08:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: Yonna Paris
Originally by: Isakova
I guarantee if you do 10 missions in a l4 hub, near half of them would be interrupted.


One-year-old-player here. I must be doing something wrong. About half of my L4's are done in hubs, and I have never had a -single- ninja salvager interrupting. They must not like me :(

Opinion: Everything is working as intended. Mission runners should either salvage on the fly to prevent ninja'ing (as I do), -or- stop whining and accept potential loss.

Small remark/suggestion: IMHO, CCP should remove the corp ticker and yellow color from wrecks to make absolutely clear they don't belong to anyone; ownership can be restored when the wreck spawns into a can. I think this would make the mechanism a bit more clear... There could be fleet/corp issues involved, though. And maybe this has been suggested before, I dunno. In that case, accept my apologies and ignore.



i have been running missions since 2005 on my main and it's never, ever happened to me either.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.05.08 08:12:00 - [66]
 

Originally by: Shammalamma Dingdong
I'm probably missing something basic (I usually am) but why is everyone so opposed to the idea that salvaging someone else's wrecks, if done right, could produce more fun if it were a flaggable offense?
Because it will only lead to more whining. Loot flagging was introduced as a response to theft whines — this gave rise to the concept of can flipping and even more whines. Salvage flagging is quite likely to yield the same results.

Also, the main reason is because the whiners commonly fail to present a good case for the change that can't be traced back to "I think I'm entitled to this salvage", which goes entirely against CCPs statend intent that it should be free-for-all. If anything, more competition needs to be brought into missions, eg. by removing loot ownership and tractoring rights entirely. If a way were devised to "steal" LP and mission rewards as well, that would be even better.

Merdaneth
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2009.05.08 08:52:00 - [67]
 

Actually, I would love to see agents hand out the same mission to multiple players, and see whoever gets to complete the mission goals first. Competitive PvE!

Perhaps then players would be less likely to think of wrecks obviously owned by Angels or Blood Raiders as 'their loot' and 'their salvage'.

There doesn't need to be a standings reduction (or just a very small) for these missions, but they would sure encourage a bit more interaction in these mission experiences.

Infinity Ziona
Minmatar
Cloakers
Posted - 2009.05.08 09:02:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Shammalamma Dingdong
I'm probably missing something basic (I usually am) but why is everyone so opposed to the idea that salvaging someone else's wrecks, if done right, could produce more fun if it were a flaggable offense?
Because it will only lead to more whining. Loot flagging was introduced as a response to theft whines this gave rise to the concept of can flipping and even more whines. Salvage flagging is quite likely to yield the same results.

Also, the main reason is because the whiners commonly fail to present a good case for the change that can't be traced back to "I think I'm entitled to this salvage", which goes entirely against CCPs statend intent that it should be free-for-all. If anything, more competition needs to be brought into missions, eg. by removing loot ownership and tractoring rights entirely. If a way were devised to "steal" LP and mission rewards as well, that would be even better.

In keeping with CCP's "claim" that eve is a sandbox type game it would make sense for mechinisms to be in place which allow the player to decide when a fight occurs.

In this circumstance, given that a wreck would flag a player to be pvp'd, the ninja salvager (player) would decide if he could be pvp'd by either salvaging or not salvaging.

The missioner (player) could decide to engage in pvp when the first player becomes flagged.

If one players accepts a risk (getting blown up for ninja salvaging) for a reward and the other player accepts a risk (trap or the salvager fighting back) for a reward then its a fair balanced system.

Isakova
Posted - 2009.05.08 09:04:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Shammalamma Dingdong
I'm probably missing something basic (I usually am) but why is everyone so opposed to the idea that salvaging someone else's wrecks, if done right, could produce more fun if it were a flaggable offense?
Because it will only lead to more whining. Loot flagging was introduced as a response to theft whines this gave rise to the concept of can flipping and even more whines. Salvage flagging is quite likely to yield the same results.

Also, the main reason is because the whiners commonly fail to present a good case for the change that can't be traced back to "I think I'm entitled to this salvage", which goes entirely against CCPs statend intent that it should be free-for-all. If anything, more competition needs to be brought into missions, eg. by removing loot ownership and tractoring rights entirely. If a way were devised to "steal" LP and mission rewards as well, that would be even better.


This is not my point all, my confusion is not directed towards salvaging, which I agree works as intended, but at deadspace. Hell, if I can't use my MWD in there, how come I can be probed so damn easily? I don't want a change to the salvage mechanics, I want deadspace to be harder to probe out. How about making gates locked to mission owner / people in fleet at time of acceptance. That way, if a person doesn't want to salvage a mission and hadns it in, when the gates are destroyed the probing salvagers get to go wild. Until then, sit patiently. Or back to my prvious argument of not letting them change ship.


Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.05.08 09:06:00 - [70]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 08/05/2009 09:08:47
Originally by: Infinity Ziona
If one players accepts a risk (getting blown up for ninja salvaging) for a reward and the other player accepts a risk (trap or the salvager fighting back) for a reward then its a fair balanced system.
The current system is fair and balanced:

The mission runner can get the rewards for no risk — he just has to beat the salvager.
The salvager can get the rewards for no risk — he just has to beat the mission runner.

Originally by: Isakova
my confusion is [with] deadspace. Hell, if I can't use my MWD in there, how come I can be probed so damn easily?
Ehm… yes? One has nothing to do with the other.
Quote:
I want deadspace to be harder to probe out.
Why?
Quote:
How about making gates locked to mission owner / people in fleet at time of acceptance.
Why?

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.05.08 09:31:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: Isakova
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Shammalamma Dingdong
I'm probably missing something basic (I usually am) but why is everyone so opposed to the idea that salvaging someone else's wrecks, if done right, could produce more fun if it were a flaggable offense?
Because it will only lead to more whining. Loot flagging was introduced as a response to theft whines this gave rise to the concept of can flipping and even more whines. Salvage flagging is quite likely to yield the same results.

Also, the main reason is because the whiners commonly fail to present a good case for the change that can't be traced back to "I think I'm entitled to this salvage", which goes entirely against CCPs statend intent that it should be free-for-all. If anything, more competition needs to be brought into missions, eg. by removing loot ownership and tractoring rights entirely. If a way were devised to "steal" LP and mission rewards as well, that would be even better.


This is not my point all, my confusion is not directed towards salvaging, which I agree works as intended, but at deadspace. Hell, if I can't use my MWD in there, how come I can be probed so damn easily? I don't want a change to the salvage mechanics, I want deadspace to be harder to probe out. How about making gates locked to mission owner / people in fleet at time of acceptance. That way, if a person doesn't want to salvage a mission and hadns it in, when the gates are destroyed the probing salvagers get to go wild. Until then, sit patiently. Or back to my prvious argument of not letting them change ship.




You're still arguing from the perspective that a mission runner has some kind of a prior right to salvage, when the devs have repeatedly and definitely asserted that they don't, and that this is specifically a deliberate choice on their behalf.

Salvage was not introduced to increase the rewards of mission running. it was introduced as a new profession.

Perhaps you'd like to justify the change by introducing evidence that mission running is too risky, or that it doesn't give enough rewards for the level of ISK, or that it pays poorly compared to other hi-sec PvE activities...?

Yeah, I thought not.

One interesting consequence of the change you want would be that if someone got killed by pirates, but his friends managed to drive the pirates away, he could be flagged to the pirates for salvaging his own wreck.

A nice illustration of how silly the game effects would be.

Tatsa
Gallente
Posted - 2009.05.08 09:48:00 - [72]
 

I will not argue that L4s are hard, by no means are they hard. But ninja salvaging is easier. With very little skills (and cognative ability, judging by some of the ones I've run into) I have recently started running level 4s, the time it's taken for me to train the skills / get standings up etc far outpaces the skills required to ninja salvaging.

A quick think makes me you could succesfully ninja salvage on a trial account. As such, easy access to risk free (more so than the mission, as 9 times out of 10 the mission runner has the aggro) and quick high level salvage. A direct result of this is we see more and more ninja salvagers, yes EVE will restablise itself, and we can just move systems (tho the salvagers are just doing the same). Last night, I got ninja salvaged twice in one mission in a system next to Dodixie, fair enough it's part of the game. But the second person came in and started shooting the NPCs too, I was actually a bit sick of the msision seeing both rooms be looted by two different players from different corps so was grateful for the speed in clearing it up and get the hell outta there haha, but I doubt that was his intention.

Reading this thread the only counter argument is that L4s are risk free and easy so ninja salvaging is fair, but with less time invested and possible equal isk/hour gains (I know, sorry isk/h yawn) I'd argue that it's even easier risk free carebear activity.

Who knows, I am training another account to salvage on the go, and working on a new agent now, which will sort my problems right out. I suggest everyone do the same, haha.

Jennz
Posted - 2009.05.08 09:51:00 - [73]
 

As an aside if you steal from a wreck and thereby get flagged to someone who then aggresses you, do you get a security status hit? Or do hits only apply when you proactively attack someone (which you couldn't do in high-sec anyway without being Concorded)

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.05.08 10:08:00 - [74]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 08/05/2009 10:09:01
Originally by: Tatsa
I will not argue that L4s are hard, by no means are they hard. But ninja salvaging is easier.

[…]

Reading this thread the only counter argument is that L4s are risk free and easy so ninja salvaging is fair, but with less time invested and possible equal isk/hour gains (I know, sorry isk/h yawn) I'd argue that it's even easier risk free carebear activity.
…and the balance against that is the guaranteed returns you get from running missions that the (supposedly) non-invested salvager can never get. You get guaranteed mission rewards and bonuses. Guaranteed LP. Guaranteed bounties. Guaranteed status and sec gain. Guaranteed ownership of loot.

As Malc keeps pointing out: salvage is not a part of the mission rewards.

As a mission runner, you already get rewarded for your skill/grind/equipment investment. If you want to get the additional income salvage provides, you need to earn in competition with others going after it. The investment (or lack thereof) for partaking in this little competition is the same for both sides — if anything it's easier for the mission runner since he's already on-site and he has a head start.

Lana Torrin
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2009.05.08 10:29:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: Junko Togawa
Here's an idea.

1)Change all missions to mission deadspace, requiring the passing of an acceleration gate.
2)Make it impossible to pass an acceleration gate unless you are the person who accepted the mission or are fleeted with the person who has it.
3)Remove flagging for can theft on wrecks spawned in mission deadspace and make it possible for anyone to tractor them.
4)Make it possible to scan down and warp to wrecks.

Result: Those who want to keep their loot and salvage secure can return to the mission deadspace before turn-in and clean up. Those who do not can turn in their mission, and the scavengers can then fight amongst each other over who gets the leftovers.

Summation: Happy carebears get safe salvage, true salvagers get a new abundance of wrecks unlike any other, gankbears looking to grief runners get to emorage on forums for my lulz. ugh


First off.. Sorry for replying to something that was on the first page when were way past that now..

Secondly, I have an idea for your idea.. **** off back to wow.. Seriously. If you want instances then you should be playing an MMO that has them. I _DONT_ want instances, so I choose to play EVE.

Infinity Ziona
Minmatar
Cloakers
Posted - 2009.05.08 10:40:00 - [76]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Edited by: Tippia on 08/05/2009 09:08:47
Originally by: Infinity Ziona
If one players accepts a risk (getting blown up for ninja salvaging) for a reward and the other player accepts a risk (trap or the salvager fighting back) for a reward then its a fair balanced system.
The current system is fair and balanced:

The mission runner can get the rewards for no risk he just has to beat the salvager.
The salvager can get the rewards for no risk he just has to beat the mission

There is risk. Theres also a crapload of training involved to get to a stage you can do them 'without risk' aka reduced risk but thats the same with anything in EvE.

Once again, NPC's should not be the ones deciding when pvp can occur if both parties are willing to pvp. It should always be the players in that situation.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.05.08 10:41:00 - [77]
 

Originally by: Infinity Ziona
There is risk. Theres also a crapload of training involved to get to a stage you can do them 'without risk' aka reduced risk but thats the same with anything in EvE.
…and as mentioned, that part of the investment is already covered by the various mission rewards.

Kaivos
Pyydys
Posted - 2009.05.08 10:43:00 - [78]
 

i stopped reading when you said "overpowered"..

Ohmebius
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2009.05.08 11:16:00 - [79]
 

Edited by: Ohmebius on 08/05/2009 11:19:42
just tried my first lvl 4 mission. all salvage stolen by 4 day old noob :(
if this is the norm then i am not going to bother.
had the cheek to then offer me 50 - 50. for stealing my salvage!

also on a side note he started dropping cans of his own? i assumed he was baiting me so a fleet could jump in and finish me

Ohmebius
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2009.05.08 11:22:00 - [80]
 

Originally by: Tippia
As Malc keeps pointing out: salvage is not a part of the mission rewards.

As a mission runner, you already get rewarded for your skill/grind/equipment investment. If you want to get the additional income salvage provides, you need to earn in competition with others going after it. The investment (or lack thereof) for partaking in this little competition is the same for both sides if anything it's easier for the mission runner since he's already on-site and he has a head start.


if that is the case then can we stop the whining about high sec lvl 4's paying to well?

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.05.08 11:27:00 - [81]
 

Originally by: Ohmebius
just tried my first lvl 4 mission. all salvage stolen by 4 day old noob :(
No. It was most likely an alt, not a noob.
Quote:
if this is the norm then i am not going to bother.
It isn't.
Quote:
had the cheek to then offer me 50 - 50. for stealing my salvage!
If he stole your salvage, you'd be able to shoot him. As it is, I suspect he offered a 50-50 deal on his salvage since you had been kind enough to create some wrecks.
Quote:
also on a side note he started dropping cans of his own? i assumed he was baiting me so a fleet could jump in and finish me
Depends what he was salvaging. Could also have been that he dumped a lot of useless metal scraps.

Foundation Vox
Posted - 2009.05.08 11:36:00 - [82]
 

i have never nija salvaged but i don't think they should change it. if a ninja shows up warp out and let him deal with the agrro. warp back and repeat until the ninja gets tired (they always do). i have had plenty of fun discouraging these types and i always win. :]

EVEHelpisSeriousBusiness
Posted - 2009.05.08 11:39:00 - [83]
 

Originally by: Isakova
First off let me say, I've done it and I've had it done to me. Since resubbing my second account it's never an issue but my question is as follows.

Generally overpowered in EVE means far too easy to do, profitable/useful with very little risk. People are trying to get your mom and your sister pushed to low sec for this very reason.

People got Falcons nerfed for this reason. Webbers, drones too.

Probing out your mom is so easy newbies do it with great success. It doesn't flagging me to probe your mom (I know CCPs stand on this, it makes sense) it is intentionally done in these unbalanced situations (;)) because of falcon, and if they choose to steal some nice action, they will be away before they've even lost 50% shields because your mom is on the pill.

I don't know what to suggest as its a fun game mechanic, but its completely risk free, ridiculously easy to do, and in many cases highly profitable without the investment in ships / time / standing gains/losses to get your mom and/or sister. I tried it with my second account while running an L4 mission and she was easy. This is far too open for abuse, and is getting to the point where theres 2 ninjas for every 10 minute slot with your mom.


Wait, what?

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.05.08 11:56:00 - [84]
 

Originally by: Ohmebius
Edited by: Ohmebius on 08/05/2009 11:19:42
just tried my first lvl 4 mission. all salvage stolen by 4 day old noob :(
if this is the norm then i am not going to bother.
had the cheek to then offer me 50 - 50. for stealing my salvage!

also on a side note he started dropping cans of his own? i assumed he was baiting me so a fleet could jump in and finish me


(1) He didn't "steal" it; it's not yours. Salvage belongs to the person who creates it from a wreck.

(2) 50/50 is a great deal, and I would cheerfully work with the guy on this basis. He does all the work and you still get 50% of the take? Sounds pretty good.

(3) The cans contain the loot from the wrecks which does belong to you. If he had taken the loot he would have been stealing.

Actually I have posted before that if someone wanted to start a reputable corp that specialised in doing exactly this - cleaning up my wrecks in return for giving me a cut, I would be more than happy to do business with them.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.05.08 11:57:00 - [85]
 

Originally by: Ohmebius
Originally by: Tippia
As Malc keeps pointing out: salvage is not a part of the mission rewards.

As a mission runner, you already get rewarded for your skill/grind/equipment investment. If you want to get the additional income salvage provides, you need to earn in competition with others going after it. The investment (or lack thereof) for partaking in this little competition is the same for both sides if anything it's easier for the mission runner since he's already on-site and he has a head start.


if that is the case then can we stop the whining about high sec lvl 4's paying to well?


Oh no. No, I dont think so.

Tiny Tove
Posted - 2009.05.08 11:57:00 - [86]
 

As is often the irony, it was the carebears who cried and whined and begged and bawled at CCP to allow the salvaging of wrecks without having to steal the contents first, because nasty pies were using the mechanic to kill bears.

Now nasty pies are using the mechanic to steal from bears.

This is a fact.

If there was some way of getting a bearbrain to understand, we would have done it by now.

Grez
Neo Spartans
Laconian Syndicate
Posted - 2009.05.08 11:58:00 - [87]
 

Topic name makes me cringe.

Ninja looting :/

Also, nerf bat, not hammer.

Shemmy
The Inevitable Corp
Black Legion.
Posted - 2009.05.08 12:04:00 - [88]
 

Originally by: Isakova
I don't know what the solution would be, but I guarantee if you do 10 missions in a l4 hub, near half of them would be interrupted.


I've not seen that. Perhaps I've just been in different mission areas, but I've missioned my sec status back up from -4.5 to -2 in Umokka area, and only once had my mission interrupted, so I just warped out and rejected the mission - no odds to me, I was after the sec anyway and got plenty of bounties from what I'd already killed. I left them to salvage the wrecks and started another mission. I was slightly miffed, but only because I had to fly 2 systems back to the agent.

Zaknussem
Everybody Loves Donuts
Posted - 2009.05.08 12:14:00 - [89]
 

Edited by: Zaknussem on 08/05/2009 12:14:08
The solution to these problems are coming, but it'll be a while until it shows, with Ambulation at the earliest.

The Sleepers are a test of the new NPC AI. This AI will eventually make its way into missions. When it does, expect ninja looting/salvaging to pretty much disappear, as rats will now target new ships that enter the mission zone. Better yet, more NPC ships may spawn because of the new ship entering into the mission.

Direct result? Risk will be involved in missions. Problem solved.

L4 missions will only be moved into low-sec if CCP are incompetent.

EDIT: Typo.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.05.08 12:25:00 - [90]
 

Originally by: Shemmy
Originally by: Isakova
I don't know what the solution would be, but I guarantee if you do 10 missions in a l4 hub, near half of them would be interrupted.


I've not seen that. Perhaps I've just been in different mission areas, but I've missioned my sec status back up from -4.5 to -2 in Umokka area, and only once had my mission interrupted, so I just warped out and rejected the mission - no odds to me, I was after the sec anyway and got plenty of bounties from what I'd already killed. I left them to salvage the wrecks and started another mission. I was slightly miffed, but only because I had to fly 2 systems back to the agent.


I don't eer recall seeing a ninja salvager, but I had the Quafe from "Cargo delivery" stolen once, and was tackled by a Tri suicide gank squad who scanned my ship and advised me to "learn to fit something decent" and warped off (I was mildly offended by this)


Pages: first : previous : 1 2 [3] 4 5 6 7 8 9 ... : last (16)

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only