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James Tritanius
Posted - 2009.12.03 16:50:00 - [391]
 

Originally by: Plim
To summarise: Some carebears started taking stuff from other carebears. Carebears got annoyed, wanted to shoot carebears, other carebears accused carebears of being carebears for wanting to shoot carebears, then made endless arguments rationalising their carebear activities.

EvE makes so much sense to me these days.


Define carebears.

Plim
Gallente
Everything Financial
Posted - 2009.12.03 16:54:00 - [392]
 

Originally by: James Tritanius
Originally by: Plim
To summarise: Some carebears started taking stuff from other carebears. Carebears got annoyed, wanted to shoot carebears, other carebears accused carebears of being carebears for wanting to shoot carebears, then made endless arguments rationalising their carebear activities.

EvE makes so much sense to me these days.


Define carebears.


I think there is an implicit definition in there if you look hard enough.

Traidor Disloyal
Private Nuisance
Segregati0n
Posted - 2009.12.03 16:55:00 - [393]
 

Originally by: James Tritanius
Define carebears.

If you're High Sec it's the 0.0 people who are scared of the AFK cloaker. If you are 0.0 then it is the High Sec mission runner. If you are low sec then it's everyone but you.

Thrasymachus TheSophist
Posted - 2009.12.03 17:10:00 - [394]
 

It would seem that salvaging mechanics also serve to decrease the extraordinarily high payout of L4 missions thereby making them less alluring thereby addressing a recognized issue of CCP, namely that too many ppl sit in highsec running L4 missions.

While I hate having someone salvage my L4, ninja-salvaging can be a fun activity on occasion to change things up.

I don't see the huge deal, really. Given how the rewards for L4s are already off the charts, even with the risk of attracting a ninja salvager, the number of people running L4s remains extraordinarily high.

Drakarin
Gallente
Absentia Libertas Solus
Posted - 2009.12.03 17:13:00 - [395]
 

Edited by: Drakarin on 03/12/2009 17:14:16
Loot = salvage that you can, entirely because of game mechanics, loot without having to have a specialized scanner.

Salvage = components that come from the same wreckage, but require a special module to find.

Apparently, because they require a salvager to find, it doesn't belong to you. The logic behind this is non-existent.

Ninja salvaging would simply be more risky if you were open to attack by the wreck's owner after stealing it. I don't understand the opposition to it.

James Tritanius
Posted - 2009.12.03 17:18:00 - [396]
 

Originally by: Plim
Originally by: James Tritanius

Define carebears.


I think there is an implicit definition in there if you look hard enough.



It seems like you are defining it as "anyone who doesn't play the way I play." Is that correct?

Plim
Gallente
Everything Financial
Posted - 2009.12.03 17:27:00 - [397]
 

Originally by: James Tritanius
Originally by: Plim
Originally by: James Tritanius

Define carebears.


I think there is an implicit definition in there if you look hard enough.



It seems like you are defining it as "anyone who doesn't play the way I play." Is that correct?


No, the implied definition was anyone who attempts to play the game with no risk, which tends to be the accepted definition. But now you have me labouring over the obvious.

Such people are those who do missions all day in high sec and little else, or those who salvage wrecks from said people, then get really excitable when it is argued that they should get flagged when they do it.


Rothrin
Posted - 2009.12.03 18:31:00 - [398]
 

The answer is, watch the ninja salvger then shoot the wrecks and play a game of who get bored of it the quickest. Runner still making money of bountys and lp, ninja not making any money.

Oh avoid mission hubs like the plague

Laciter
Posted - 2009.12.03 18:37:00 - [399]
 

I recently started ninja salvaging to gain money, after being frustrated with level 3 missions. First off, it is a very easy way to make money, far easier than actually running the missions yourself.

I don't think the ninja advocates here are fairly acknowledging the amount of time and isk investment that is required to run level 4 missions efficiently. Go to battleclinic and look at most of the mission fits. The good ones have all t2 modules, and have pretty high SP requirements as well. On top of that, runners have to juggle faction standings to avoid KOS and 4 hour decline timers, which often means jumping from system to system. Missions running is really a big pain in the ass, but right now, it's the best way to make money for most players. Maybe some of the new anomalies in 0.0 will draw some of the high-sp alliance members in their marauders back to nullsec where they belong.

HOWEVER, ninja salvaging really doesn't do that much to hurt level 4 mission runners (arguably even level 3). At worst, we take maybe 30% of your total per mission yield. We don't prevent you from completing your mission and you still get plenty of money from bounties, loot, and LP + reward. There are a few griefers out there who go for lower-level runners, or try to ruin the mission, but they are few and far between. The fact is, you could ignore all the salvage, turn in the mission quicker and move on to the next one, and you would probably be better off anyways.

All this drama over ninja salvagers is really blown out of proportion. I understand that at lower level missions, salvage represents the large majority of your income, and maybe that is why you develop the mentality that you really need it. But at level 4, it just isn't that big a loss to stress out or cry about. We are much like the remoras to sharks, feeding of the scraps of the shark's kill, but doing our best to keep out its way.

One of the problems I think is that there simply weren't enough PVE alternatives to making ISK in the game. And even PvP players rely on some form of "primary production" to be able to PvP. I think making exploration easier and bringing some more pve options to nullsec is a good step in the right direction. But as long as hi-sec mission running is the most lucrative, safe way for a high-SP character to make money, there will be low SP ninja salvagers feeding off the scraps. Why? Because other forms of making ISK at low-SP levels are just horrible.

E Vile
Posted - 2009.12.03 18:50:00 - [400]
 

Salvaging should be treated as looting.
It needs to flag the person stealing.


Not fair they can steal from you right in front of you and you can't even shoot them.


Xander XacXorien
Posted - 2009.12.03 18:52:00 - [401]
 

It's the old argument of risk vs reward.

There is no risk therefore there should be no reward - end of story.

If there is risk then there should be reward.

If ninja salvaging is to be allowed then the ninja salvager should attract his own spawn of ships in the mission which are specifically dedicated to his/her annialation and the salvager should face a standing hit against the faction he his operating in.

No risk, no reward this is the defacto Eve way of life.

If the intruders warp out the rats should also warp out (in mimick of pursuit - who cares), lol unless aggrod by said missioner - lol.

This also levels the playing field for pirates warping into a mission trying to kill a mission runner.

E Vile
Posted - 2009.12.03 18:58:00 - [402]
 

Edited by: E Vile on 03/12/2009 18:59:59
Originally by: Xander XacXorien
It's the old argument of risk vs reward.

There is no risk therefore there should be no reward - end of story.

If there is risk then there should be reward.

If ninja salvaging is to be allowed then the ninja salvager should attract his own spawn of ships in the mission which are specifically dedicated to his/her annialation and the salvager should face a standing hit against the faction he his operating in.

No risk, no reward this is the defacto Eve way of life.

If the intruders warp out the rats should also warp out (in mimick of pursuit - who cares), lol unless aggrod by said missioner - lol.

This also levels the playing field for pirates warping into a mission trying to kill a mission runner.



Don't have NPC spawn, just flag them and give me the right to defend my own salvage.
Having NPC spawn will ruin it for people grouping with a new player they ALLOW to come salvage.
Plus wouldn't it be simple just to make it so it flags them just like stealing loot?
I have no clue why CCP lets this continue without giving players the ability to defend their kills.

Someone steals my salvage, I shoot them for stealing from me, and get CONCORDed. This just isn't right.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.12.03 19:05:00 - [403]
 

Originally by: E Vile
Edited by: E Vile on 03/12/2009 18:59:59
Originally by: Xander XacXorien
It's the old argument of risk vs reward.

There is no risk therefore there should be no reward - end of story.

If there is risk then there should be reward.

If ninja salvaging is to be allowed then the ninja salvager should attract his own spawn of ships in the mission which are specifically dedicated to his/her annialation and the salvager should face a standing hit against the faction he his operating in.

No risk, no reward this is the defacto Eve way of life.

If the intruders warp out the rats should also warp out (in mimick of pursuit - who cares), lol unless aggrod by said missioner - lol.

This also levels the playing field for pirates warping into a mission trying to kill a mission runner.



Don't have NPC spawn, just flag them and give me the right to defend my own salvage.
Having NPC spawn will ruin it for people grouping with a new player they ALLOW to come salvage.
Plus wouldn't it be simple just to make it so it flags them just like stealing loot?
I have no clue why CCP lets this continue without giving players the ability to defend their kills.

Someone steals my salvage, I shoot them for stealing from me, and get CONCORDed. This just isn't right.



That's because - stop me if I'm going to quickly for you here - the salvage belongs to the person who makes it, not the person who makes the wreck the salvage is made from.

Dont like that law? Mission/rat in 0.0 where it doesn't apply. I hear you get better LP there too.

Andros Omega
Posted - 2009.12.03 19:09:00 - [404]
 

I think a previous poster brought up a great point.

Lvl4 missioners have spent literally months biulding up their BS skills (or perhaps BC). We've invested a ton of time to allow us to profit from these missions. And their is certainly risk involved, so it's not a carebear activity.

But CCP has allowed a game mechanic that protects ninjas from reprisal. Thats MY beef at least.

I personally think deadspace rooms should be private for missioners OR open them up to PvP between the missioner and the ninja...let them fight it our one-on-one.

Andros Omega
Posted - 2009.12.03 19:16:00 - [405]
 

OR...I just had another idea....don't allow ninjas in lvl4 missions unless they have a set amount of skill points. That way a ninja still has to earn their right to enter a lvl4 mission to get the salvage. Whereas now, a noob or alt can do it in a matter of a couple days.

No noob should be able to pull in 10mil per hour taking money out of the pockets of missioners who have trained for months to get where they are.

OR...

Don't allow ninjas in deadspace already occupied by players run ACTIVE missions. If a players leaves a mission, thus leaves wrecks, then in this case I agree that salvage (and loot) should be up for grabs.

CCP wants conflict in this game. That is clear. Thats why they won't change this mechanic. It's the one area where I think they have made an error.

Laciter
Posted - 2009.12.03 19:22:00 - [406]
 

Originally by: Andros Omega
I think a previous poster brought up a great point.

Lvl4 missioners have spent literally months biulding up their BS skills (or perhaps BC). We've invested a ton of time to allow us to profit from these missions. And their is certainly risk involved, so it's not a carebear activity.

But CCP has allowed a game mechanic that protects ninjas from reprisal. Thats MY beef at least.

I personally think deadspace rooms should be private for missioners OR open them up to PvP between the missioner and the ninja...let them fight it our one-on-one.


No. Even though it's your mission, it's not your space. Instanced areas would completely kill the uniqueness of eve. PVP in deadspace without attracting concord? Why not just mission in low-sec since you would get essentially the same results?

James Tritanius
Posted - 2009.12.03 19:25:00 - [407]
 

Originally by: Plim

No, the implied definition was anyone who attempts to play the game with no risk, which tends to be the accepted definition. But now you have me labouring over the obvious.



Fair enough, but I, myself, would change the definition to "low risk" instead of "no risk."

---

And for all the guys who are saying ninja salvaging is a no-risk activity while mission running is... Guess what? Mission runners are not subject to risks neither when they come back in their salvaging ship after the pocket is clear. The grounds are equal.

Lord Mookiefire
Posted - 2009.12.03 19:33:00 - [408]
 

Questions from a noob who would probably ninja salvage shamelessly until he had the resources to solo level 4s himself:

Were there no level 4s before salvaging was an option? If there were, were they considered worth doing?

Are level 4s so hard to solo that it's impossible to train up salvaging and swap out a single high slot for a tech II Salvager to hit the more valuable targets as you go? With maxed skill and a T2 odds are pretty reasonable you'll salvage on the first cycle.

That said, I think allowing PK in L4 deadspace or moving it to lowsec would be reasonable. Don't expect that to stop opportunists from popping in occasionally to see if you're paying attention though.

James Tritanius
Posted - 2009.12.03 19:43:00 - [409]
 

Originally by: Lord Mookiefire

That said, I think allowing PK in L4 deadspace or moving it to lowsec would be reasonable.


That will cause LOADS more carebear tears than ninja salvaging... I wonder why mission runners even brought up that idea.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.12.03 19:43:00 - [410]
 

Originally by: Andros Omega
I think a previous poster brought up a great point.

Lvl4 missioners have spent literally months biulding up their BS skills (or perhaps BC). We've invested a ton of time to allow us to profit from these missions. And their is certainly risk involved, so it's not a carebear activity.

But CCP has allowed a game mechanic that protects ninjas from reprisal. Thats MY beef at least.

I personally think deadspace rooms should be private for missioners OR open them up to PvP between the missioner and the ninja...let them fight it our one-on-one.


Make combat mission deadspaces equivalent to lo-sec. Problem solved.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.12.03 19:47:00 - [411]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 03/12/2009 19:50:29
Originally by: E Vile
Salvaging should be treated as looting.
It needs to flag the person stealing.
Why? He hasn't taken anything that's yours.
In addition, if you want to shoot salvagers who enters your mission, you can already do this if you choose to.
Originally by: Xander XacXorien
It's the old argument of risk vs reward.

There is no risk therefore there should be no reward - end of story.

If there is risk then there should be reward.

If ninja salvaging is to be allowed then the ninja salvager should attract his own spawn of ships in the mission which are specifically dedicated to his/her annialation and the salvager should face a standing hit against the faction he his operating in.
I also assume that you're suggesting that a mission runner shouldn't be allowed to salvage unless, say, a whole bunch of neut towers and extra battleships (which won't leave behind any bounty or wrecks) should spawn and try to wtfpwn them?
Originally by: Andros Omega
I think a previous poster brought up a great point.

Lvl4 missioners have spent literally months biulding up their BS skills (or perhaps BC). We've invested a ton of time to allow us to profit from these missions.
And guess what? You're being amply rewarded for that investment already, to the point where it's caused severe balancing issues with trying to add other money-making activities to the game. Why on earth should you gain even more for no good reason? If you want that salvage, you need to earn it like everyone else.

The ninjas have spent just as much time and effort as the MR in order to earn that salvage (in most cases more, in fact), so why shouldn't they have it?
Quote:
But CCP has allowed a game mechanic that protects ninjas from reprisal. Thats MY beef at least.
Yes, it's the same mechanic that protects mission runners. Do you really want that protection removed?

Akhmed TDT
Posted - 2009.12.03 19:53:00 - [412]
 

Edited by: Akhmed TDT on 03/12/2009 19:55:53
I honestly don't understand why all the "pirates" salvaging someone elses work are so dead set against PVP. More explosions are good. It's not like they can't take a PVP fit ship in and be outclassed with 1 less gun against a PVE fit ship with full room aggro helping you out.

small chimp
Posted - 2009.12.03 20:21:00 - [413]
 

I am so angry at carebear. Why do they keep whining?

Franko Scalzi
Posted - 2009.12.03 20:21:00 - [414]
 

I dont see it as a problem. Then again I knew well enough NOT to mission in major hubs so in all my lvl 3s and then lvl 4 missions for the last 6 months,I have only come across 2 people intruding on my mission.

I think it actually adds some more of that cut throat flair that eve is known for.


Lord Mookiefire
Posted - 2009.12.03 20:31:00 - [415]
 

Edited by: Lord Mookiefire on 03/12/2009 20:32:45
Originally by: James Tritanius
Originally by: Lord Mookiefire

That said, I think allowing PK in L4 deadspace or moving it to lowsec would be reasonable.


That will cause LOADS more carebear tears than ninja salvaging... I wonder why mission runners even brought up that idea.


Yeah I think I was being subconsciously perverse in supporting that.

If it's so 'easy' you should be seeing fleets of salvagers piling on to every single L4 you run.

To a salvager and I think obviously to CCP given that they removed the flag for salvaging other people's wrecks, laying claim to wrecks in high sec makes about as much sense as laying claim to an asteroid in high sec. Equip a salvaging beam, bring a salvager buddy with you on your missions or consider any wrecks you beat the salvagers to a bonus, which really, they kind of are since they haven't always been in the game.

I just find it kind of ironic that players who want 100% of all loot without anybody interfering with them ever in high sec are the ones talking up this absurd risk/reward ratio. Risk does neat mean months of training up skills that can be applied towards all sorts of things and then killing NPCs in high sec. It means venturing into low sec.

Killing a ship in high sec entitles you to the loot without threat of being killed over it. The wreck is just a side-effect resource that takes some extra skills and ship equipment to harvest.

If you're not equipped to multitask with the advantage of being the first person to know a new wreck has just become available, be prepared for a specialist to occasionally beat you to the punch.

As far as I'm concerned, the following assertions are flawed.

* "I spent months training skills for L4s." It doesn't take months and the skills being trained can and should apply to all sorts of things. There is no "L4 missioning" skill.

* "Those are 'my wrecks.'" It's true that it took you making a kill for them to exist but it's obvious CCP doesn't see it that way or they wouldn't have removed the flag for salvaging wrecks produced from kills other than your own. They did, however prevent players from tractor beaming wrecks of ships they didn't kill. That keeps other players from completely denying you the opportunity to salvage wrecks that you personally killed. If you're not equipped to do so, tough bunnies.

* "I worked hard..." You killed an NPC. Work a little harder and do it with one of your high slots swapped out for a T2 salvager with salvage trained to 5.

Woodwraith
Selective Pressure
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2009.12.03 20:34:00 - [416]
 

The salvage is not yours until its in your cargo hold.
The salvage is not yours until its in your cargo hold.
The salvage is not yours until its in your cargo hold.
The salvage is not yours until its in your cargo hold.
The salvage is not yours until its in your cargo hold.
The salvage is not yours until its in your cargo hold.
The salvage is not yours until its in your cargo hold.

Gevic
Posted - 2009.12.03 20:36:00 - [417]
 

I wholeheartedly agree that salvaging should flag the salvager to the person who made the wreck. I see absolutely no unintended consequence and everyone will be happy with this idea, especially the mission runners.


BTW, does anyone want to run around high sec and do some can flipping? Anyone?

SalvageIsNotYours
Posted - 2009.12.03 21:07:00 - [418]
 

Sup guys. Just popping in to confirm that Salvage Is Not Yours (until it enters your cargohold)

Kiri Serrensun
Posted - 2009.12.03 21:08:00 - [419]
 

Originally by: Gevic
I wholeheartedly agree that salvaging should flag the salvager to the person who made the wreck. I see absolutely no unintended consequence and everyone will be happy with this idea, especially the mission runners.


I'm hoping this does get implemented by now, just to vary the monotony of these threads. I lost a Scythe to responding to a canflipper a couple of years back, would have been a lot more painful if I first learned the mission with a big old battleship.

Lord Mookiefire
Posted - 2009.12.03 21:22:00 - [420]
 

Originally by: Gevic
I wholeheartedly agree that salvaging should flag the salvager to the person who made the wreck. I see absolutely no unintended consequence and everyone will be happy with this idea, especially the mission runners.


BTW, does anyone want to run around high sec and do some can flipping? Anyone?


Why would this be a multi-page thread if everybody would be happy with that?


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