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Jake McCord
Minmatar
McCord Industries
Terran Commonwealth
Posted - 2009.11.04 10:15:00 - [361]
 

You realize, eventually we're going to "solution" ourselves out of a really decent game. Ok, so people can scan out missions and "steal" the salvage. Just means I have to work faster.

Crap happens, life isn't perfect. We should stop trying to make things perfect in the game. It works well as it is. Although, I would not mind seeing an aggro counter on someone salvaging a wreck they didn't make, I'm not gonna cry if it doesn't happen.

Hyveres
Caldari
Resilience.
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2009.11.04 11:04:00 - [362]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Cory Sopapilla
Originally by: Cir Loin
Originally by: Yosarian
If people really wanted a challenge, they'd have no issue with salvaging a wreck setting the aggression timer. To call people carebears then claim that 'ninja' salvaging as-is is a good mechanic is self defeating.

- Have salvaging a wreck (not destroyed by you) flag aggression



All this would do is create organized groups of people who made it their job to salvage a wreck, draw aggression, then blast you out of the sky. Then we'd have endless threads of people whining about how "ninja salvagers have made mission running unsafe!" The people who whine about salvaging ultimately seem to want instanced missions.


I don't buy that for a minute. Carebears are asking for more PVP and the PVPers are arguing against it to hide behind Concord.


That's a lie and you know it. Carebears are asking for a change that they hope will reduce the number of professional salvagers. The kind of PvP they have in mind is, at best heavily armed battleship getting to choose whether to initiate combat with a frigate.

If you genuinely want more PvP, then you can support my proposal to make combat mission deadspaces lo-sec space (That is: lo-sec pockets within hi-sec systems). It will give you everything you say you want - without any need for any changes in the way salvage works. If anyone turns up in your mission, you'd be free to shoot them on sight. Anyone who initiated combat would of course be stuck in the mission for 15 minutes, but hey, actions have consequences, right? And that'd work against anyone who come looking to just gank you. You'd have 15 minutes to get your revenge.

You'd still have all the advantage of hi-sec when it comes to logistics, supply, etc. And if someone invaded your mission and you suspected a trap, you could warp right out in to good ole safe-but-dull hi-sec space whenever you liked.

And of course it would resolve the age-old glaring anomaly of what all those legions of pirate battleships and massive space installations are doing in hi-sec, completely ignored by CONCORD and the faction navies.
Then "ninja" salvage with a combat fit.

Or in a battleship if thats your way of doing things. A missionrunner setup is a crap pvpsetup and you know it.

I just see it as another way of getting a shot at highvalue targets without loosing sec status over it.

Wiley Peterson
Posted - 2009.11.04 13:35:00 - [363]
 

the imbalance is in the ease of salvaging. It takes weeks, months even, for a mission runner to get to level 4. level 1-3 missions provide paltry rewards. Meanwhile, someone who has only played a couple of weeks can scan down multiple mission runners in mere minutes, earning many times what a level 1 or level 2 mission runner would be earning, and they do it without any risk. Wrecks may be FFA, but there is an obvious imbalance here.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.11.04 13:55:00 - [364]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 04/11/2009 13:56:00
Originally by: Wiley Peterson
the imbalance is in the ease of salvaging. It takes weeks, months even, for a mission runner to get to level 4. level 1-3 missions provide paltry rewards. Meanwhile, someone who has only played a couple of weeks can scan down multiple mission runners in mere minutes, earning many times what a level 1 or level 2 mission runner would be earning, and they do it without any risk. Wrecks may be FFA, but there is an obvious imbalance here.
That's a fairly decent argument in my eyes, but as I see it, this low barrier of entry is balanced against the fact that, unlike mission-runners, these quick-trained single-purpose salvagers engage in an inherently competitive activity.

You may get there fast (training time wise), but nothing is guaranteed in terms of payoff — hell, it's not just a matter of beating other players, you have to wrestle with a whole pantheon of random-number-deities in hopes of hitting a "useful" runner leaving behind useful wrecks that give off useful salvage. Compare this to the numerous guaranteed rewards from running missions — including unrelated meta-rewards such as tax breaks and clone rights — and that long skill- and standings-grind doesn't seem all that unreasonable.

Salvaging is rather similar, in that respect, to other low-barrier/pure-PvP activities such as trading or — least demanding of them all — scamming.

Zeek Muaka
Ded End Blasting Company
Ded End Conglomerates
Posted - 2009.11.04 14:02:00 - [365]
 

Originally by: Wiley Peterson
level 1-3 missions provide paltry rewards.



Level 3's provide a decent amount of isk actually. It just isn't the unbalanced amount that comes from Level 4's.

Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
Posted - 2009.11.04 14:47:00 - [366]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Edited by: Akita T on 07/05/2009 19:37:53

Yeah, you are right, this is a complete and utter travesty, how they dare make looting a criminal act while salvaging isn't ?
Solution : make looting NOT a criminal act Twisted Evil

Get the stuff first or blow up the wreck, your choice.



/signed.

If the loot should belong to any one its the family/corp of the rats you just killed in cold blod. Not you.

Dharh
Gallente
Ace Adventure Corp
Posted - 2009.11.04 15:05:00 - [367]
 

Originally by: Tippia
snip


Of course its not meant to be a part of the default reward that comes with the mission. I argue loot shouldn't either. But neither is salvage meant to 'pad' the salvagers wallet. Its just there. Like asteroids.

The problem I see is that in most every way its like mining, except that it comes in so small quantities that it bypasses a fundamental part of mining which is jetcans. Thus it bypasses a fundamental risk associated with mining more than 1 or 2 cyles of ore. And thus is bypasses any potential pvp. It seems like there is a perfectly good pvp moment wasted, in high sec. That is the _only_ thing I really care about in this discussion. Whiners who are really just wanting others locked out of their mission area don't concern me.

Although, ive gotten sidetracked here and there when I disagree on some semantics.


Gerrick Palivorn
Posted - 2009.12.03 09:31:00 - [368]
 

Ok first off I did not read thru all that arguing...so I don't know if somebody made the point yet. Why aren't the blackops guys sweeping these guys into pvpland, with a little guidance they could be excellent covops pilots. With all the practice with the scanner they get, I bet they could rival a few of the experts doing it in PVP. Who know they may one day make an honest living in EVE pirating.

Gerrick Palivorn

Stevens
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2009.12.03 09:38:00 - [369]
 

Per CCP Mitnal:
Originally by: CCP Mitnal
"Our policy on this is extremely clear... Salvaging is a mini-profession within EVE and does not constitute stealing."

Per GM Faolchu :
Originally by: GM Faolchu
Salvaging other peoples wrecks.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage.
Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up.

Per Senior GM Ytterbium :
Originally by: GM Ytterbium
Players are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will ... and doing so is not considered as an exploit.

Per CCP Prism X :
Originally by: CCP Prism X
Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing.

(These quotes are kept handy for your convenience at Ironfleet.com.)

Gideon Kross
Caldari
Kross Industries Ltd
Posted - 2009.12.03 10:14:00 - [370]
 

Originally by: Stevens
Per CCP Mitnal:
Originally by: CCP Mitnal
"Our policy on this is extremely clear... Salvaging is a mini-profession within EVE and does not constitute stealing."

Per GM Faolchu :
Originally by: GM Faolchu
Salvaging other peoples wrecks.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage.
Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up.

Per Senior GM Ytterbium :
Originally by: GM Ytterbium
Players are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will ... and doing so is not considered as an exploit.

Per CCP Prism X :
Originally by: CCP Prism X
Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing.

(These quotes are kept handy for your convenience at Ironfleet.com.)


Then the mechanic is Broken.

Where is the All Important Element of Risk vs. Reward?

The Misson Runner assumes All The Risk, and Expense. (Ship Hull, Fittings, Insurance, Munitions, etc.)

What is the Ninja-Salvager Risking, Exactly? ... Harsh Words in Local/Private Convo??

Hate to say it Dev's... But your darling little "Mini Profession" is Broken, and Game Breaking by it's very nature (All Reward, No Risk).

Any other statement is just adding to the huge, steaming pile of Bovine ***** this topic has already generated.

~Fin.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.12.03 10:28:00 - [371]
 

Originally by: Gideon Kross
Originally by: Stevens
Per CCP Mitnal:
Originally by: CCP Mitnal
"Our policy on this is extremely clear... Salvaging is a mini-profession within EVE and does not constitute stealing."

Per GM Faolchu :
Originally by: GM Faolchu
Salvaging other peoples wrecks.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage.
Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up.

Per Senior GM Ytterbium :
Originally by: GM Ytterbium
Players are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will ... and doing so is not considered as an exploit.

Per CCP Prism X :
Originally by: CCP Prism X
Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing.

(These quotes are kept handy for your convenience at Ironfleet.com.)


Then the mechanic is Broken.

Where is the All Important Element of Risk vs. Reward?

The Misson Runner assumes All The Risk, and Expense. (Ship Hull, Fittings, Insurance, Munitions, etc.)

What is the Ninja-Salvager Risking, Exactly? ... Harsh Words in Local/Private Convo??

Hate to say it Dev's... But your darling little "Mini Profession" is Broken, and Game Breaking by it's very nature (All Reward, No Risk).

Any other statement is just adding to the huge, steaming pile of Bovine ***** this topic has already generated.

~Fin.


To name but one possibility, warping in to someone doing Recon 3/3

Instadead ninja...

You know some people like to AFK their ship in that mission for just this reason?

Winters Chill
Amarr
Ministry of War
Posted - 2009.12.03 10:31:00 - [372]
 

I think the salvagers earn every penny of isk they make.

a) its boring as hell scanning down mission runners.

b) at peak you make ~10 mil an hour, roughly the same as most empire careers

c) When I lvl 4, i see a salvager, I ignore him, finish the mission and get another one. It more time efficient to start a new level 4 that try wrestle isk of some poor street urchin who can barely afford a vigil.

'nuff said.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.12.03 10:38:00 - [373]
 

Wow. Nice necro! Shocked

Also, since the message hasn't come across even though it's been repeated over and over again:
Originally by: Gideon Kross
Where is the All Important Element of Risk vs. Reward?
It's right there in the race: you risk not being first to the wreck – it's the same as for the mission runner. The risk the mission runner faces is the ninja salvager; the risk the ninja salvager faces is the mission runner. The winner gets the rewards.
Quote:
The Misson Runner assumes All The Risk, and Expense. (Ship Hull, Fittings, Insurance, Munitions, etc.)
…none of which are relevant to the task of getting the salvage. Those risks and expenses are paid for through the mission rewards.

yarrmarr
Trans-Solar Works
Posted - 2009.12.03 11:00:00 - [374]
 

Edited by: yarrmarr on 03/12/2009 11:01:37
Originally by: Tippia
Wow. Nice necro! Shocked

Also, since the message hasn't come across even though it's been repeated over and over again:
Originally by: Gideon Kross
Where is the All Important Element of Risk vs. Reward?
It's right there in the race: you risk not being first to the wreck – it's the same as for the mission runner. The risk the mission runner faces is the ninja salvager; the risk the ninja salvager faces is the mission runner. The winner gets the rewards.
Quote:
The Misson Runner assumes All The Risk, and Expense. (Ship Hull, Fittings, Insurance, Munitions, etc.)
…none of which are relevant to the task of getting the salvage. Those risks and expenses are paid for through the mission rewards.


rofl, you seriously thought about this for a long time and came up with the risk of a ninja salvager being too late at the wreck? Gosh, never have I seen a bigger risk than that. Rolling Eyes

how about rephrasing; the missionrunner is both at risk from rats AND then a ninja-salvager. Salvager only has the risk that he's too late to salvage a wreck... hmmm... balanced.

I like ninja salvagers, just adds to the vibrant sandbox that is EvE. I do think it's a bit unbalanced though when a 1 week old char can make equal amounts of isk per hour as a lvl4 mission runner while facing less risk. Maybe some more investment in a decent salvaging char could balance that out. Would do more good than nerfing lvl4's again


N Ano
Caldari
Templars of Space
Posted - 2009.12.03 11:05:00 - [375]
 

Originally by: Gideon Kross
Originally by: Stevens
Per CCP Mitnal:
Originally by: CCP Mitnal
"Our policy on this is extremely clear... Salvaging is a mini-profession within EVE and does not constitute stealing."

Per GM Faolchu :
Originally by: GM Faolchu
Salvaging other peoples wrecks.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage.
Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up.

Per Senior GM Ytterbium :
Originally by: GM Ytterbium
Players are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will ... and doing so is not considered as an exploit.

Per CCP Prism X :
Originally by: CCP Prism X
Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing.

(These quotes are kept handy for your convenience at Ironfleet.com.)


Then the mechanic is Broken.

Where is the All Important Element of Risk vs. Reward?

The Misson Runner assumes All The Risk, and Expense. (Ship Hull, Fittings, Insurance, Munitions, etc.)

What is the Ninja-Salvager Risking, Exactly? ... Harsh Words in Local/Private Convo??

Hate to say it Dev's... But your darling little "Mini Profession" is Broken, and Game Breaking by it's very nature (All Reward, No Risk).

Any other statement is just adding to the huge, steaming pile of Bovine ***** this topic has already generated.

~Fin.


How is a CCP aproved mini profession "broken" please enlighten me on this

Wesfahrn
WESCORP 2.0
Posted - 2009.12.03 11:13:00 - [376]
 

Remove high-sec

Khalm
Red Federation
Posted - 2009.12.03 11:28:00 - [377]
 

STFU *****es.

This subject has been talked through and through. Ninja salvaging is fine. Deal with it or gtfo and give me your stuff.

Its absolutely ridiculous these threads keeps on popping on general section.

Boink'urr
Minmatar
Wasserette De Tarthorst
Posted - 2009.12.03 11:54:00 - [378]
 

Edited by: Boink''urr on 03/12/2009 11:56:01
Originally by: N Ano


How is a CCP aproved mini profession "broken" please enlighten me on this


Because if it were a REAL properly designed mini profession - we would be able to scan down wrecks. Don't you think it's a little odd that a profession that lives of wrecks can't scan for them? Rolling Eyes

It's not a miniprofession, it's an accident. Wink

EDIT: actually what about the directional scanner? Doesn't that show wrecks on it?

Ultranoia
Posted - 2009.12.03 12:25:00 - [379]
 

Originally by: Boink'urr


EDIT: actually what about the directional scanner? Doesn't that show wrecks on it?


It does. I often use my directional when probing to determine the amount and quality of salvage-worthy material. You can also do this to determine the initial placement of the probes.

(My first big score as a salvager was in fact not from a mission: I was flyin thru a system on my way to a hub when a little idle fiddling with the directional revealed a wreck-field of juicy tech 2 battleships lying at what seemed to be some belt, remnants of some fresh faction battle or something. Arriving on the field and firing up my salvagers I got to work, observing how the few survivors were trying to rescue the valuables from the wrecked ships of those fallen comrades and enemies. I made it off with several faction modules and a small fortune in quality salvage. Plus a reduced shield and some hate mail.)

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.12.03 12:48:00 - [380]
 

Originally by: yarrmarr
rofl, you seriously thought about this for a long time and came up with the risk of a ninja salvager being too late at the wreck? Gosh, never have I seen a bigger risk than that. Rolling Eyes
Not really, no. It takes at most 3 seconds to come up with the risk because it's so bloody obvious.
Quote:
how about rephrasing; the missionrunner is both at risk from rats AND then a ninja-salvager. Salvager only has the risk that he's too late to salvage a wreck... hmmm... balanced.
No, that would be to (wrongly) confuse running missions with salvaging.

The mission runner is at risk from rats while running the mission – the reward for running missions is mission rewards, time rewards, bounties, LP, loot, standings. The ninja salvager doesn't get those rewards, and don't get the risk either… most of the time.

The mission runner is at risk from ninjas while salvaging – the reward for salvaging is salvage. The ninja is at risk from the mission runner while salvaging – the reward is salvage.

Both activities have their respective risks balanced against their respective awards. Just because you can do both at once doesn't mean they're the same activity. By that logic, salvaging is incredibly risky because you might fall for a contract scam and lose all your ISK… Rolling Eyes
Quote:
I do think it's a bit unbalanced though when a 1 week old char can make equal amounts of isk per hour as a lvl4 mission runner while facing less risk.
Not really. Partly because they don't make equal amounts of ISK to begin with, but mainly because they're engaging in a competitive activity, which is more in line with the rest of EVE and therefore should pay proportionally better in relation to the effort involved.

Spurty
Caldari
V0LTA
VOLTA Corp
Posted - 2009.12.03 12:55:00 - [381]
 

Hows about you petition CCP to put a civilian scram on every ship, just like they do scanners.

Make them only 1point and 5km range so if you want more range, you need fit a real one, again like scan probe launchers.

You have your basic auxiliary device and your dedicated uber module that can do it betterer

Everyone should have a scram.

HeliosGal
Caldari
Posted - 2009.12.03 13:01:00 - [382]
 

Originally by: Spurty
Hows about you petition CCP to put a civilian scram on every ship, just like they do scanners.

Make them only 1point and 5km range so if you want more range, you need fit a real one, again like scan probe launchers.

You have your basic auxiliary device and your dedicated uber module that can do it betterer

Everyone should have a scram.



could be interesting

Gideon Kross
Caldari
Kross Industries Ltd
Posted - 2009.12.03 13:52:00 - [383]
 

Originally by: Spurty
Hows about you petition CCP to put a civilian scram on every ship, just like they do scanners.

Make them only 1point and 5km range so if you want more range, you need fit a real one, again like scan probe launchers.

You have your basic auxiliary device and your dedicated uber module that can do it betterer

Everyone should have a scram.



Problem is, as soon as you Scram them... You've lost your ship to CONCORD. (More Risk for the Mission Runner)

It never ceases to amaze me, the amount of bull**** rationalizations that people come up with to avoid the glaring fact that there really is No Risk involved for the Non-Fleet Salvager. Excluding Trigger/Proximity Aggro.

"Competitive"?? ... How is it Competitive when you know the pilot whose profit margins your cutting into, Can't retaliate against you without taking considerable loss, and kinda has thier hands tied up with .. ::hehe:: Making More Wrecks!

I don't see a whole lot of "Salvagers" all barging into the same mission deadspace, trying to Out Salvage Eachother... Do You? ... Of course not, That would be Competitive. Heavens! ::gasp:: They might have to get Aggressive with eachother, and assume some Actual Risk for once.

Enough with blowing smoke up everyone's arse about how Legit it is... It's not, and you sound foolish trying to make it seem so.

... I'm done with this topic, and others like it... Every time one comes up I just want to punch people in the throat. Rolling Eyes

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.12.03 14:02:00 - [384]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 03/12/2009 14:02:53
Originally by: Gideon Kross
"Competitive"?? ... How is it Competitive when you know the pilot whose profit margins your cutting into, Can't retaliate against you without taking considerable loss, and kinda has thier hands tied up with .. ::hehe:: Making More Wrecks!
How is it not competitive? If he takes it, you don't get it. If you take it, he doesn't get it. It's a race to get there first. The mission runner has has every chance to retaliate, but for some reason, most seem utterly unwilling to do so and want to be fed the rewards without actually earning them. If the MR makes the choice not go after the wreck, but to dilly-dally and do other things, then he has no cause to get upset when someone else beats him to the punch.

If the salvage is that important to his profit margins, he should take action to ensure that he manages to claim the stuff. If not, he's obviously not that interested, so there's no reason to complain.
Quote:
I don't see a whole lot of "Salvagers" all barging into the same mission deadspace, trying to Out Salvage Eachother... Do You? ... Of course not, That would be Competitive.
Really? You never see that? Well, then I suppose the whole complaint about ninja salvagers is bogus since it apparently never happens. After all, what you're describing is exactly what happens when a ninja appears in the same room as an MR: they compete for the wrecks.
Quote:
Enough with blowing smoke up everyone's arse about how Legit it is... It's not, and you sound foolish trying to make it seem so.
CCP says you're wrong – claiming otherwise is the foolish act.

James Tritanius
Posted - 2009.12.03 14:11:00 - [385]
 

CASE 1: If the mission runner salvages on-the-go, as in, he carries tractor beams and salvagers with him to mission or have a friend in a salvaging ship while he missions, then not many ninja salvagers will bother him.

CASE 2: If the mission runner does not salvage on-the-go and still want the salvage, then he has to clear out the pocket first before exiting and getting his dedicated salvage vessel. In this case, he is subject to ZERO RISK, similar to the ninja salvager.

CASE 3: If the mission runner does not salvage on-the-go and does not want the salvage, then he will have no problem letting the ninja salvager take the salvage.

Therefore, don't pull the risk card.

Jerid Verges
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.12.03 14:41:00 - [386]
 

I think I made 80%ish of my wealth Ninja-looting/salvaging around Luminaire.

First of all, it's a lot more fun then mining grinding, and a lot more profitable. But ninja-looting is also risky. Lost a ship or two when the ratter went back to a station and fitted a scrambler.

yarrmarr
Trans-Solar Works
Posted - 2009.12.03 14:56:00 - [387]
 

Edited by: yarrmarr on 03/12/2009 14:57:21
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: yarrmarr
rofl, you seriously thought about this for a long time and came up with the risk of a ninja salvager being too late at the wreck? Gosh, never have I seen a bigger risk than that. Rolling Eyes
Not really, no. It takes at most 3 seconds to come up with the risk because it's so bloody obvious.
Quote:
how about rephrasing; the missionrunner is both at risk from rats AND then a ninja-salvager. Salvager only has the risk that he's too late to salvage a wreck... hmmm... balanced.
No, that would be to (wrongly) confuse running missions with salvaging.

The mission runner is at risk from rats while running the mission – the reward for running missions is mission rewards, time rewards, bounties, LP, loot, standings. The ninja salvager doesn't get those rewards, and don't get the risk either… most of the time.

The mission runner is at risk from ninjas while salvaging – the reward for salvaging is salvage. The ninja is at risk from the mission runner while salvaging – the reward is salvage.

Both activities have their respective risks balanced against their respective awards. Just because you can do both at once doesn't mean they're the same activity. By that logic, salvaging is incredibly risky because you might fall for a contract scam and lose all your ISK… Rolling Eyes
Quote:
I do think it's a bit unbalanced though when a 1 week old char can make equal amounts of isk per hour as a lvl4 mission runner while facing less risk.
Not really. Partly because they don't make equal amounts of ISK to begin with, but mainly because they're engaging in a competitive activity, which is more in line with the rest of EVE and therefore should pay proportionally better in relation to the effort involved.


Re 1: tell me what risk the salvager is taking if he salvages another one's wreck other than 'being late'. I really can't come up with one (note: I'm not talking about the looter)

Re 2: having salvageable items is the direct result of the missionrunner's actions. Without them there is no salvage. Correct? Then it is not a matter of 'wrongly confuse running missions with salvaging'.

Re 3: having worked on both sides it's my impression that there's not a lot of difference in payout over the longer term. The sp needed to fulfill both roles decently differs vastly though between these professions. And competition amongst salvagers? Heh, that may be a direct result of that skillpoint issue?

(note: to me both professions in eve are equal, it's just the balancing that's a bit off in my book).

Anyway, back to suicide ganking haulers in smartbomb fitted bs I go, that's where skillpoints really count

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.12.03 15:22:00 - [388]
 

Originally by: yarrmarr
Re 1: tell me what risk the salvager is taking if he salvages another one's wreck other than 'being late'. I really can't come up with one (note: I'm not talking about the looter)
No, that's pretty much it. Why would there have to be more? It's the same risk as the MR faces (except the latter has to put less effort in)
Quote:
Re 2: having salvageable items is the direct result of the missionrunner's actions. Without them there is no salvage. Correct? Then it is not a matter of 'wrongly confuse running missions with salvaging'.
Wrong. It's a direct result of blowing up ships, regardless of where, when and how.

The part you're confusing the two is where you think that salvage is part of the mission rewards. It's not. The (non-existent) risks you face running the mission are irrelevant to the activity of salvaging and the non-risk you run by doing the mission earns you squat in relation to being owed any rights to the salvage. You earn the right to the salvage by activating the salvager on the wrecks. So no, the mission runner does not have to face both the risk of rats and the risk of ninjas when competing for the salvage, because the former is completely unrelated to the activity at hand.
Quote:
Re 3: having worked on both sides it's my impression that there's not a lot of difference in payout over the longer term.
Riiiight… somehow I doubt that ninjas will be able to pull in 45M/h – if they do, they've certainly earned it.
Quote:
The sp needed to fulfill both roles decently differs vastly though between these professions.
So? Trading is probably the most potentially profitable activity in EVE and the skill requirement for that is tiny. It, too, is a competitive activity, so it should come as no surprise that it's easier on the training queue than the non-competitive mission running.
Quote:
And competition amongst salvagers? Heh, that may be a direct result of that skillpoint issue?
Yes. If there was no competition between salvagers, we wouldn't have any ninja salvaging whines, now would we? As to the causality you're trying to imply, I have no idea what you're referring to, but please elaborate.

Traidor Disloyal
Private Nuisance
Segregati0n
Posted - 2009.12.03 16:16:00 - [389]
 

Originally by: Winters Chill
I think the salvagers earn every penny of isk they make.

a) its boring as hell scanning down mission runners.

What's funny is I will wait for hours to kill a war target. But I get bored within 5 minutes of scanning down a mission runner.

To the mission runners *****ing about people coming into their missions and salvaging the wreaks:
Get over it. CCP will not change it because it is not ruining the game for a lot of people. It is only a minor inconvenience that touches the Eve lives of a small number of people who know how to post on the forums. If you are really ****ed at this salvage person then add his/her name to your address book. Sooner or later they will join a corp and maybe start running missions. War dec em or train up and salvage their missions. If you are to nice to do that then what the hell are you doing playing Eve?

In my over three years of running missions I have had ONE mission where a cov ops popped in. I think he was looking for a war target.

What would I do if I had someone actually come into my mission and salvage the wreaks? Depends on how I feel that day. If I am feeling good that day, I would do nothing. If he/she looks like they are in a nice corp then I will war dec em. If they have friends in system I will just make a call on vent to my friends in corp and have us a nice deadspace get together and see who has the better remote rep gang of ships.

Plim
Gallente
Everything Financial
Posted - 2009.12.03 16:35:00 - [390]
 

To summarise: Some carebears started taking stuff from other carebears. Carebears got annoyed, wanted to shoot carebears, other carebears accused carebears of being carebears for wanting to shoot carebears, then made endless arguments rationalising their carebear activities.

EvE makes so much sense to me these days.


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