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Dharh
Gallente
Ace Adventure Corp
Posted - 2009.11.03 22:51:00 - [331]
 

Originally by: Cir Loin
Originally by: Cory Sopapilla


I don't buy that for a minute. Carebears are asking for more PVP and the PVPers are arguing against it to hide behind Concord. If what you said were true, they'd already have organized groups stealing loot rather than salvage to draw them in with the red blinky aggression. Instead they avoid the loot and hide behind concord while leeching since they know a lvl 4 mission fit is not suicide gank fit or profitable on insurance loss. We want more explosions!


*You* might, but I suspect a lot of the people who run missions full time do not, or they would mission in low sec.


Don't delude yourself as many 'pvpers' do. There are plenty of MRs who would be perfectly fine with being able to engage in pvp. They just don't want to do it low/null sec. A PVE fit might not be the same as a PVP fit, but there are PVP/PVE fits that would blow a majority of salvager fits out of space.

Captain Tardbar
State Protectorate
Posted - 2009.11.03 22:51:00 - [332]
 

I'll just leave this here...

Originally by: CCP Incognito
Had a chat with some designers this evening.

Ninja salvaging is intended game play. It was always intended that the wrecks are public, the loot is private.

They do not see it as a problem if others salvage your wrecks.


Posted - 2009.11.03 18:45:00

Source

QFT.

End.

Of.

Discussion.

Wiley Peterson
Posted - 2009.11.03 22:55:00 - [333]
 

Originally by: Tippia
You need to explain why ninjas aren't entitled to what they've worked for (worked harder, I might once again add, than the MR).



You have to be ****ting me. Have you even done any missions? Have you even done any ninja salvaging? I can't imagine anyone who has tried both (I have) would make such an obviously false claim.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.11.03 22:58:00 - [334]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 03/11/2009 23:01:18
Originally by: goodby4u
MR cannot beat them to a wreck when he is possibly running multiple rooms/currently fighting something etc... They definately do not have this risk.
Yes he can, if he chooses to.
Quote:
No but this is the risk MRs take to make their money and create those wrecks to salvage from, the ninjas don't suffer from this same risk.
And guess what: the MRs are already being rewarded handsomely for that risk. Salvage is not part of that reward.
Quote:
If I remember correctly one cannot tractor beam another's wreck yes? So why should salvagers be different?
Because salvagers don't move something that belongs to someone else, unlike tractors.
Quote:
1)Mission runners won't be buffed, you would be able to steal the wreck all the same, you will simply need to protect yourself in the process.
Yes they will be. Suddenly, salvage is part of the mission rewards.
Quote:
2)If you have two people racing on a track and one is getting beaten to a pulp in the process while the other is simply running which is better?
Whomever is faster, which is not affected by their being beaten to a pulp or not.
Quote:
3)It isn't, however I like to compete with my lasers rather then my speed. Twisted Evil
So go to lowsec.
Quote:
4)Scanning is damn easy now, I have several people in my corp that learned how to scan within the first couple of days they started, however learning how to properly run lvl 4s takes much longer.
So? I assume this is a counter-argument to ninja-salvaging taking more effort, in which case you're still incorrectly believing that salvaging is the same as running missions. The respective efforts we're talking about here are:

MR: Approach wreck, activate tractor when in range, salvage.
Ninja: Scan for ship, assess value, warp, approach wreck all the way, salvage.
Originally by: Wiley Peterson
You have to be ****ting me. Have you even done any missions? Have you even done any ninja salvaging? I can't imagine anyone who has tried both (I have) would make such an obviously false claim.
How is it false? Or are you also confusing the business of running missions with the business of salvaging? See above for a comparison of the effort involved for the respective parties.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.11.03 22:58:00 - [335]
 

Originally by: Cory Sopapilla
Originally by: Cir Loin
Originally by: Yosarian
If people really wanted a challenge, they'd have no issue with salvaging a wreck setting the aggression timer. To call people carebears then claim that 'ninja' salvaging as-is is a good mechanic is self defeating.

- Have salvaging a wreck (not destroyed by you) flag aggression



All this would do is create organized groups of people who made it their job to salvage a wreck, draw aggression, then blast you out of the sky. Then we'd have endless threads of people whining about how "ninja salvagers have made mission running unsafe!" The people who whine about salvaging ultimately seem to want instanced missions.


I don't buy that for a minute. Carebears are asking for more PVP and the PVPers are arguing against it to hide behind Concord.


That's a lie and you know it. Carebears are asking for a change that they hope will reduce the number of professional salvagers. The kind of PvP they have in mind is, at best heavily armed battleship getting to choose whether to initiate combat with a frigate.

If you genuinely want more PvP, then you can support my proposal to make combat mission deadspaces lo-sec space (That is: lo-sec pockets within hi-sec systems). It will give you everything you say you want - without any need for any changes in the way salvage works. If anyone turns up in your mission, you'd be free to shoot them on sight. Anyone who initiated combat would of course be stuck in the mission for 15 minutes, but hey, actions have consequences, right? And that'd work against anyone who come looking to just gank you. You'd have 15 minutes to get your revenge.

You'd still have all the advantage of hi-sec when it comes to logistics, supply, etc. And if someone invaded your mission and you suspected a trap, you could warp right out in to good ole safe-but-dull hi-sec space whenever you liked.

And of course it would resolve the age-old glaring anomaly of what all those legions of pirate battleships and massive space installations are doing in hi-sec, completely ignored by CONCORD and the faction navies.

Dharh
Gallente
Ace Adventure Corp
Posted - 2009.11.03 23:00:00 - [336]
 

Originally by: Captain Tardbar
I'll just leave this here...

Originally by: CCP Incognito
Had a chat with some designers this evening.

Ninja salvaging is intended game play. It was always intended that the wrecks are public, the loot is private.

They do not see it as a problem if others salvage your wrecks.


Posted - 2009.11.03 18:45:00

Source

QFT.

End.

Of.

Discussion.


It's not the fact that others can salvage wrecks made by a MRs guns that are the problem. It's that they can enter the mission area and can do so protected by CONCORD. CONCORD really has no business protecting mission space anyway.

Wiley Peterson
Posted - 2009.11.03 23:02:00 - [337]
 

Originally by: Tippia
[
Quote:
If I remember correctly one cannot tractor beam another's wreck yes? So why should salvagers be different?
Because salvagers don't move something that belongs to someone else, unlike tractors.



So now wrecks belong to someone? Holy logical inconsistency.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.11.03 23:04:00 - [338]
 

Originally by: Wiley Peterson
Originally by: Tippia
Because salvagers don't move something that belongs to someone else, unlike tractors.
So now wrecks belong to someone? Holy logical inconsistency.
Not really, no.

Myra2007
Millstone Industries
Posted - 2009.11.03 23:05:00 - [339]
 

Originally by: Wiley Peterson
stuff



Per CCP Mitnal:
Originally by: CCP Mitnal
"Our policy on this is extremely clear... Salvaging is a mini-profession within EVE and does not constitute stealing."

Per GM Faolchu :
Originally by: GM Faolchu
Salvaging other peoples wrecks.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage.
Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up.

Per Senior GM Ytterbium :
Originally by: GM Ytterbium
Players are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will ... and doing so is not considered as an exploit.

Per CCP Prism X :
Originally by: CCP Prism X
Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing.

(These quotes are kept handy for your convenience at Ironfleet.com.)

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.11.03 23:06:00 - [340]
 

Originally by: Dharh

It's not the fact that others can salvage wrecks made by a MRs guns that are the problem. It's that they can enter the mission area and can do so protected by CONCORD. CONCORD really has no business protecting mission space anyway.


Agreed! So I'll put you down as a supporter for my idea then?

Ezcalli
Posted - 2009.11.03 23:08:00 - [341]
 

Originally by: N00byn00blar
This debate is all academic imho. For example, a system I just passed though (a mission running system):

Quote:
Yorlock > /emote wanted more smack, is left confused as to whether you Concorded yourslef, got can flipped, or ganked... more tears and details please


It's not about resources, or loot, or making money for the ninja, it's about being an ass to others. That's all.
Likely true, and nothing is going to be changed. To be honest, there are already ways around the ninjas, and plenty of people use them. Watching both sides get all arrogant and defensive about how low-real-risk what they do is just makes me lol. Given the ships they use, and the occasional MR they get to pop with a Curse or something because they agressed and the poor fool opened fire, ninjas probably make their isk for as low true risk as the MR's themselves, but wow they get as defensive as the MR's when you point that out.

There is plenty of isk in level 4's to go around, and the competition doesn't really gouge either side badly.

So...(and this is equally aimed at my own corp mate)...what is all the whining about??

(Disclaimer: I'm a miner. I acknowledge that what I do is next-to-no-risk. I'm not about to start whining about the little risks I do have. Laughing )

Dharh
Gallente
Ace Adventure Corp
Posted - 2009.11.03 23:10:00 - [342]
 

Edited by: Dharh on 03/11/2009 23:11:16
Originally by: Tippia
MR: Approach wreck, activate tractor when in range, salvage.
Ninja: Scan for ship, assess value, warp, approach wreck all the way, salvage.


More like

MR: Get Mission, tank/kill ships, create wreck, waste slots for tractor and salvager, approach wreck (most likely while getting shot at), waste target slot for target of wreck that could be used for shooting ships, tractor wreck at < 20km, salvage
Ninja: scan for ship (max a few minutes), assess value (couple seconds), warp, approach wreck to within <5km, salvage

Still the work to do all this is what it is and shouldn't necessarily change in itself. I would actually rather _loot_ from the wrecks also be FFA (heck its usually worth far less than the salvage).

Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Dharh

It's not the fact that others can salvage wrecks made by a MRs guns that are the problem. It's that they can enter the mission area and can do so protected by CONCORD. CONCORD really has no business protecting mission space anyway.


Agreed! So I'll put you down as a supporter for my idea then?


Pretty much yes. Add to that loot being FFA and wrecks being tractorable by anyone.

Plim
Gallente
Everything Financial
Posted - 2009.11.03 23:11:00 - [343]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Cory Sopapilla
Originally by: Cir Loin
Originally by: Yosarian
If people really wanted a challenge, they'd have no issue with salvaging a wreck setting the aggression timer. To call people carebears then claim that 'ninja' salvaging as-is is a good mechanic is self defeating.

- Have salvaging a wreck (not destroyed by you) flag aggression



All this would do is create organized groups of people who made it their job to salvage a wreck, draw aggression, then blast you out of the sky. Then we'd have endless threads of people whining about how "ninja salvagers have made mission running unsafe!" The people who whine about salvaging ultimately seem to want instanced missions.


I don't buy that for a minute. Carebears are asking for more PVP and the PVPers are arguing against it to hide behind Concord.


That's a lie and you know it. Carebears are asking for a change that they hope will reduce the number of professional salvagers. The kind of PvP they have in mind is, at best heavily armed battleship getting to choose whether to initiate combat with a frigate.

If you genuinely want more PvP, then you can support my proposal to make combat mission deadspaces lo-sec space (That is: lo-sec pockets within hi-sec systems). It will give you everything you say you want - without any need for any changes in the way salvage works. If anyone turns up in your mission, you'd be free to shoot them on sight. Anyone who initiated combat would of course be stuck in the mission for 15 minutes, but hey, actions have consequences, right? And that'd work against anyone who come looking to just gank you. You'd have 15 minutes to get your revenge.

You'd still have all the advantage of hi-sec when it comes to logistics, supply, etc. And if someone invaded your mission and you suspected a trap, you could warp right out in to good ole safe-but-dull hi-sec space whenever you liked.

And of course it would resolve the age-old glaring anomaly of what all those legions of pirate battleships and massive space installations are doing in hi-sec, completely ignored by CONCORD and the faction navies.


Surely this would put more ninja in ninja salvaging?

Wiley Peterson
Posted - 2009.11.03 23:16:00 - [344]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Wiley Peterson
Originally by: Tippia
Because salvagers don't move something that belongs to someone else, unlike tractors.
So now wrecks belong to someone? Holy logical inconsistency.
Not really, no.


Then please explain how wrecks can be free-for-all and simultaneously only tractorable by the mission runner, if everything is "working as intended."

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.11.03 23:17:00 - [345]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 03/11/2009 23:22:25
Originally by: Dharh
More like

MR: Get Mission, tank/kill ships, create wreck,
Irrelevant in the whole effort–for–salvage line of argument, since this part is already fully rewarded.
Quote:
waste slots for tractor and salvager,
Funnily enough, some of the best mission-running ships have utility slots for this (or similar) purposes, so nothing is wasted. At any rate, it doesn't change the effort involved in salvaging.
Quote:
approach wreck (most likely while getting shot at),
Being shot at makes no difference in terms of salvaging effort… (Well, at least not if you're in a mission-running ship, since it's set up for the express purpose of being shot at).
Quote:
waste target slot for target of wreck that could be used for shooting ships,
Only a waste if he's actually firing at multiple targets at once — i.e. being hugely ineffective. Even then, once again funnily enough, the better MR ships have target slots in spades. Also, it makes no terms in the effort required for salvaging.

Originally by: Wiley Peterson
Then please explain how wrecks can be free-for-all and simultaneously only tractorable by the mission runner, if everything is "working as intended."
As has been explained roughly fifty bazillion times in this thread alone: moving a wreck also moves the container in said wreck. If said container isn't yours, you can't move it.

Dharh
Gallente
Ace Adventure Corp
Posted - 2009.11.03 23:20:00 - [346]
 

Originally by: Ezcalli
Originally by: N00byn00blar
This debate is all academic imho. For example, a system I just passed though (a mission running system):

Quote:
Yorlock > /emote wanted more smack, is left confused as to whether you Concorded yourslef, got can flipped, or ganked... more tears and details please


It's not about resources, or loot, or making money for the ninja, it's about being an ass to others. That's all.
Likely true, and nothing is going to be changed. To be honest, there are already ways around the ninjas, and plenty of people use them. Watching both sides get all arrogant and defensive about how low-real-risk what they do is just makes me lol. Given the ships they use, and the occasional MR they get to pop with a Curse or something because they agressed and the poor fool opened fire, ninjas probably make their isk for as low true risk as the MR's themselves, but wow they get as defensive as the MR's when you point that out.

There is plenty of isk in level 4's to go around, and the competition doesn't really gouge either side badly.

So...(and this is equally aimed at my own corp mate)...what is all the whining about??

(Disclaimer: I'm a miner. I acknowledge that what I do is next-to-no-risk. I'm not about to start whining about the little risks I do have. Laughing )


The whining is about the perceived notion that a created wreck somehow belongs to the killer in entirety. If someone else so much as sneezes at the wreck its a violation of the killers virginity.

Dharh
Gallente
Ace Adventure Corp
Posted - 2009.11.03 23:29:00 - [347]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Edited by: Tippia on 03/11/2009 23:19:17
Originally by: Dharh
More like

MR: Get Mission, tank/kill ships, create wreck,
Irrelevant in the whole effort–for–salvage line of argument, since this part is already fully rewarded.
Quote:
waste slots for tractor and salvager,
Funnily enough, some of the best mission-running ships have utility slots for this (or similar) purposes, so nothing is wasted. At any rate, it doesn't change the effort involved in salvaging.
Quote:
approach wreck (most likely while getting shot at),
Being shot at makes no difference in terms of salvaging effort.
Quote:
waste target slot for target of wreck that could be used for shooting ships,
Only a waste if he's actually firing at multiple targets at once — i.e. being hugely ineffective. Even then, once again funnily enough, the better MR ships have target slots in spades. Also, it makes no terms in the effort required for salvaging.


As I said, it is what it is. The wreck would _not_ exist without the efforts of the MR. Obviously it shouldn't have such a large bearing on the discussion that it means a salvager should not be able to salvage said wreck. But the fact that it seems to have zero bearing on the argument just makes me want to suggest that your entire opinion on the matter is lacking in merit altogether. Then again, you already don't believe any argument but your own has any merit.

Other than blowing up the wrecks there are no ways to prevent a salvager getting what they want. A salvager is always faster than a MR ship, always. Even warping out with enemy still in the pocket usually never works.

the plague
Anthraxus Defense Laboratories
Posted - 2009.11.04 00:01:00 - [348]
 

Originally by: Cutie Chaser
It is the lions job to run the hyenas off of his kill; if he'd rather share then feast then he dines with filth.




I agree with you in principle, however, isn't this the very heart of the problem? The lion can't "run the hyenas off" because if he bites one he then gets popped by Concord.

Ninja salvagers should be able to scan and steal, after all this is EVE. However, the owner of the wrecks should at least be able to fight to protect his kill. When the "lion" is penalized for fighting, that's not very EVE-like and probably something the devs need to take a second look at.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.11.04 00:02:00 - [349]
 

Edited by: Malcanis on 04/11/2009 00:06:08
EvE has lots of much more glaring inconsistencies than that, but one thing CCP have been pretty consistent about is prioritising game balance and game play over making trivial details logically coherent.

Indeed, this is mirrored in real life; I bet you could cite offhand at least half a dozen bizarre anomalies in the law which are well known, but nonetheless remain because some things are more important than consistency.

You can make a decent argument that it would be consistent to make salvaging flaggable in the same way loot is. but Tippia and others - specifically CCP, whose opinion counts in this - have made even better ones that it is not desirable.

In short: get over it. It's a weird anomaly which is required for game balance, like having nuclear warhead missiles that make explosions which expand at only a few hundred meters per second, or having 1400mm artillery shells which only take up 0.04m^3 of cargo space.

Elldranga
Posted - 2009.11.04 00:17:00 - [350]
 

Another guy gave me this info a while ago... I tried it, and it totally works.

Just run enemies abound. On 5 of 5, just get in a very strong tanked BS. Warp to the mission and start the timer... then wait. Get the full spawn (can be quite hard to tank). The moment you see a mission runner warping in, warp out. That mission locks faster than even a small frig can warp out, and the total dps of the full spawn will insta pop them. They have no chance of survival, no matter what ship they are in.

Rinse and repeat. Eventually you get bored cause you're running out of ninjas. Complete the mission, loot the ninja's wrecks. (you'd be suprised what a noob ninja will carry into another mission).

It's easy as pie to have a guaranteed ninja kill.

Cadde
Gallente
221st Century Warfare
Posted - 2009.11.04 00:33:00 - [351]
 

I mean WOW!

12 pages and change about such a simple thing as:

Quote:
The salvage in the wrecks DOES NOT belong to you until you have it in your cargohold.


It's really that simple! It's impossible to steal something that doesn't belong to anyone until it's in the cargohold.


E Vile
Posted - 2009.11.04 00:40:00 - [352]
 

Salvage should flag you attackable just like looting.
If I own the loot, I own the salvage.

and....who says no one fits a scram for missions.

In hubs where ninja rats are a issue, GROUP with fellow mission runners. When a ninja comes, you get him. If he returns to jump you, have everyone in group warp to you, and enjoy serving some justice.

Work with your community to make your neighborhood safer.

Cadde
Gallente
221st Century Warfare
Posted - 2009.11.04 00:43:00 - [353]
 

Originally by: E Vile
Salvage should flag you attackable just like looting.
If I own the loot, I own the salvage.


Says who? Not the devs... They own the game, you don't.

Plim
Gallente
Everything Financial
Posted - 2009.11.04 00:58:00 - [354]
 

Edited by: Plim on 04/11/2009 00:58:58
Originally by: Cadde
I mean WOW!

12 pages and change about such a simple thing as:

Quote:
The salvage in the wrecks DOES NOT belong to you until you have it in your cargohold.


It's really that simple! It's impossible to steal something that doesn't belong to anyone until it's in the cargohold.




I think people are discussing the idea that it might be an improvement for it to not be that way.

It's really that simple.

Ownership of wrecks and salvage is actually an arbitrary decision on CCP's part, taken to create the current game mechanics. There is no natural course of reasoning that implies that it does or does not belong to a player, it's a game mechanic which should be chosen based on it's impact on the game. In-fact CCP have changed ownership mechanics before in other respects.

Personally I think that salvaging a wreck that someone else has created should result in flagging, in order to encourage PvP. A situation that some carebears seem to be trying to avoid.


Cadde
Gallente
221st Century Warfare
Posted - 2009.11.04 01:21:00 - [355]
 

Originally by: Plim

I think people are discussing the idea that it might be an improvement for it to not be that way.

It's really that simple.

Ownership of wrecks and salvage is actually an arbitrary decision on CCP's part, taken to create the current game mechanics. There is no natural course of reasoning that implies that it does or does not belong to a player, it's a game mechanic which should be chosen based on it's impact on the game. In-fact CCP have changed ownership mechanics before in other respects.

Personally I think that salvaging a wreck that someone else has created should result in flagging, in order to encourage PvP. A situation that some carebears seem to be trying to avoid.



If CCP did that then they would have to make it so sites that can be scanned down with exploration probes changed ownership as well, initiating a hacking module on a container in a site you didn't find first would get you flagged too.

But sure, lets play with this notion (No, i didn't read all pages) that the ninja gets flagged to the wreck owner. Would the wreck owner shoot the ninja salvager? It's the same exact situation that can flippers exploit to get miners to aggress them so they can come back and pop their hulks for free.
What good does this bring to the table for the mission runner?

A ninja salvager ship, commonly a destroyer with a few salvager modules fitted and an afterburner, is pretty cheap compared to a level 4 capable battleship.
If said ninja salvager is in a ship designed to get under the guns or survive the damage from said battleship and scramble it then there is a completely other situation as well, now the ninja can keep that mission runner in place while the NPC's attack him all day long. It's like getting a parasite.

Of course this can be solved by having the NPC's change target to the ninja but not only would this be an odd mechanic because the ninja is actually HELPING the pirates to fight the mission runner. But also open for exploitation by a mission runner who is scrammed by the NPC's and in a situation he cannot win.

Quote:
Please come salvage a wreck of mine so these NPC's will let me go and i save my BS, i will cover the cost of your salvager ship!


Don't forget that Missions are pretty easy to master because they are the same, every time, all the time.
I can run hundreds of missions without risking anything at all, just make ISK like nothing has happened.
At least ninja salvagers provide a counterbalance to this safety by taking away some of the profits i could make.
Not to mention gankers, they can at any time come in and alphastrike my tank so it fails against the NPC's. That's the only risk mission runners face and that risk is slim at best. Still, mission runners make as much and even more ISK than 0.0 ratters make at this time.

Plim
Gallente
Everything Financial
Posted - 2009.11.04 01:45:00 - [356]
 

Originally by: Cadde
Originally by: Plim

I think people are discussing the idea that it might be an improvement for it to not be that way.

It's really that simple.

Ownership of wrecks and salvage is actually an arbitrary decision on CCP's part, taken to create the current game mechanics. There is no natural course of reasoning that implies that it does or does not belong to a player, it's a game mechanic which should be chosen based on it's impact on the game. In-fact CCP have changed ownership mechanics before in other respects.

Personally I think that salvaging a wreck that someone else has created should result in flagging, in order to encourage PvP. A situation that some carebears seem to be trying to avoid.



If CCP did that then they would have to make it so sites that can be scanned down with exploration probes changed ownership as well, initiating a hacking module on a container in a site you didn't find first would get you flagged too.

But sure, lets play with this notion (No, i didn't read all pages) that the ninja gets flagged to the wreck owner. Would the wreck owner shoot the ninja salvager? It's the same exact situation that can flippers exploit to get miners to aggress them so they can come back and pop their hulks for free.
What good does this bring to the table for the mission runner?



It at least gives them the chance to fight the ninja salvagers. The possibility of getting killed in the process is the consequence of trying to defend what they think is theirs. It all sounds good to me. They wouldn't have to agress them.


Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.11.04 06:13:00 - [357]
 

Originally by: Plim
It at least gives them the chance to fight the ninja salvagers.
And that's where the argument falls down: it assumes that this isn't already the case, which is patently false. Mission runners already have this chance — they're just too lazy to do it.

Plim
Gallente
Everything Financial
Posted - 2009.11.04 06:36:00 - [358]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Plim
It at least gives them the chance to fight the ninja salvagers.
And that's where the argument falls down: it assumes that this isn't already the case, which is patently false. Mission runners already have this chance — they're just too lazy to do it.


Yeah, I suppose they can invade their homes and force them to play naked Twister™.

I wasn't thinking outside the box.


Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.11.04 08:58:00 - [359]
 

Originally by: Dharh
But the fact that it seems to have zero bearing on the argument just makes me want to suggest that your entire opinion on the matter is lacking in merit altogether.
It has no bearing for the very simple reason that salvaging is not meant to pad mission-runners wallets. It's meant to pad salvagers wallets. The mechanics that enable salvagers to do their job isn't particularly relevant when what we're discussing here is the competition between two parties that want the same salvage.

That's really the fundamental problems with the standard salvage whine: it comes from a person who cannot understand that it's two completely separate activities.
Quote:
Other than blowing up the wrecks there are no ways to prevent a salvager getting what they want. A salvager is always faster than a MR ship, always. Even warping out with enemy still in the pocket usually never works.
This isn't true either. A normal salvager is faster than some of the cookie-cutter/standard-go-to mission running ships… but what's wrong with that? One of the salvagers in the competition come in with a ship built for the purpose; another comes with a ship that's not. Is it not reasonable that the one with the right tools get an advantage for his intelligent choice? And even then, CCP has been kind enough to bestow a number of handicaps on the mission runner so that he can compete quite well even in a less-than-optimal ship!


Again: salvaging is a separate activity to mission running. It is not meant to pad mission-runners wallets. It is not a part of mission rewards. If you want to engage in both activities side by side, you have to make sacrifices on one side or the other: want to be the most efficient at salvaging? Then your MR:ing will probably suffer. Want to be the most efficient at MR:ing? Then your salvaging will probably suffer (and as many experience MRs happily point out: if you want to be really effective, salvaging and looting is a waste of time since it keeps you away from the important business of earning bounties and LP).

So the defences you have against ninja salvagers will require sacrifices. If you don't want to make those sacrifices, then you obviously aren't that interested in the salvage after all, so why should you have any inherent right to it? Conversely, if you are so keen on getting that salvage, you should put in the effort to earn it.

These sacrifices go in every direction imaginable, so you have no grounds in complaining that there isn't a solution available to you: fly a smaller ship (missions take longer, but you're much more annoying to scan down, so you'll never see any ninjas) for less risk and less reward. Fly a larger ship such as a Marauder (missions will be over in the blink of an eye, as will the salvaging process, but you're very easily probed out) for more risk and more reward. Between these two extremes, there's a legion of permutations with more or less risk, reward, and effort. It is you choice on which combination you want, but you cannot blame anyone else for the choices you make.

Plim
Gallente
Everything Financial
Posted - 2009.11.04 09:44:00 - [360]
 

I still don't get how any of this is preferable to people shooting each other in the face.


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