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Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.11.02 11:36:00 - [271]
 

Originally by: nafiy gnaw
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Casimir Fenring
It also give people the time and ISK they need to develop the skills needed to succeed in lo/no-sec space, skills which give me a better chance of NOT being slagged by the pimply-faced gits that infest lo/no-sec, which is what I'm doing now.
No. Time spent on doing missions will not let you develop those skills. Neutral


I think he means skill points.


I think Tippia means - correctly - that a day of actual lo-sec experience will be more useful than a million SP when it comes to surviving and thriving outside of hi-sec.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.11.02 11:49:00 - [272]
 

Originally by: nafiy gnaw
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Casimir Fenring
It also give people the time and ISK they need to develop the skills needed to succeed in lo/no-sec space, skills which give me a better chance of NOT being slagged by the pimply-faced gits that infest lo/no-sec, which is what I'm doing now.
No. Time spent on doing missions will not let you develop those skills. Neutral
I think he means skill points.
I know he does, and I'm saying that the skill points are irrelevant. If he think he'll survive better because he has more SP, he won't last a second, no matter how many missions he run and how many SP he accrues.

Here's what you need to have trained to survive:
· Mechanic I — this allows you to train…
· Hull Upgrades I — this allows you to fit an inertia stabilizer.
· Spaceship Command I — this allows you to train…
· [racial] Frigate II — this allows you to fly the "fast" frigates.
· Navigation IV – this allows you to train…
· Afterburner IV — …which allows you to train…
· High Speed Maneuvering I — this allows you to fit an MWD.

That's 94,839 SP… Optionally, you might want:
· Electronics V – which allows…
· Cloaking I — the use of which is pretty obviousl

That's another 257,500 SP, though, so all in all, the SP required will take you, oh, maybe as much as a week to get.

nafiy gnaw
Posted - 2009.11.02 11:58:00 - [273]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: nafiy gnaw
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Casimir Fenring
It also give people the time and ISK they need to develop the skills needed to succeed in lo/no-sec space, skills which give me a better chance of NOT being slagged by the pimply-faced gits that infest lo/no-sec, which is what I'm doing now.
No. Time spent on doing missions will not let you develop those skills. Neutral
I think he means skill points.
I know he does, and I'm saying that the skill points are irrelevant. If he think he'll survive better because he has more SP, he won't last a second, no matter how many missions he run and how many SP he accrues.

Here's what you need to have trained to survive:
· Mechanic I — this allows you to train…
· Hull Upgrades I — this allows you to fit an inertia stabilizer.
· Spaceship Command I — this allows you to train…
· [racial] Frigate II — this allows you to fly the "fast" frigates.
· Navigation IV – this allows you to train…
· Afterburner IV — …which allows you to train…
· High Speed Maneuvering I — this allows you to fit an MWD.

That's 94,839 SP… Optionally, you might want:
· Electronics V – which allows…
· Cloaking I — the use of which is pretty obviousl

That's another 257,500 SP, though, so all in all, the SP required will take you, oh, maybe as much as a week to get.


But skill points does come into play if both pilots are equally experienced.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.11.02 12:03:00 - [274]
 

Originally by: nafiy gnaw
But skill points does come into play if both pilots are equally experienced.
At that point, chances are that nothing will happen at all, since both will be trying to make the other guy tip his hand and reveal how far away his backup is… Wink

While they're doing the dance, their respective SP will lay idle, and once the backup arrives, SP once again no longer matters.

Dharh
Gallente
Ace Adventure Corp
Posted - 2009.11.02 15:06:00 - [275]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Dharh
I'll keep saying until my face is blue with lack of oxygen. High sec needs to become more open. _All_ mission space should flag intruders with an aggression timer after a couple seconds. CONCORD should never interfere in mission space.


Of course, with that kind of change, no flagging would be necessary to begin with… Wink


Of course flagging will be necessary. If you take what I have 'claimed', which includes the mission space, I should be able to defend it. That would be the whole purpose of making it FFA. If everyone can take everything but no one can attack eachother over it then its meaningless and lame.

Originally by: Tippia
Quote:
Those who want to avoid pvp could still avoid it. But rats and ninjas would be open to attacks from more angles and be more vulnerable, as it should be.


It would also make mission-running largely obsolete, which isn't a good thing.


No it wouldn't. Mission running's purpose is to inject ISK into the system, and to provide LP and standing to the mission runner. Missions will always be able to provide this regardless.

Originally by: Tippia
Quote:
High sec protects ninja salvager's too much and does not prepare anyone for low/null sec.


It protects the ninjas just as much as it protects the mission runners because neither party is doing anything "bad".


My point is its over protective. If it isn't bad to salvage, why is it bad to loot? The loot on the wreck is not any more mine than the salvage is.

Hiroshima Jita
Posted - 2009.11.02 16:09:00 - [276]
 

I'm slowly grinding my security status back from -10 in order to do this stuff. Im over halfway there, not flashy red anymore. My plan is to put a cheap pvp BS in a mission hub, scan peoples missions. Salvage and loot with a rifter or a stabber or something cheap, and if someone actually fires on me, go try to blow them up.


One guy I know who does this says people are mostly wise to the tactic. He used to put all kinds of stupid faction killmails on the board but lately not so much.


Also you forget that Hyenas kill things as well. And when a lion decides to take it (happens as often as a hyena trying to take a lions kill) the hyena is probablty screwed unless hes got alot of buddies and the lion doesn't. When talking about ninja salvaging its not a good idea for a pve player to assume he is a lion and the guy annoying him by taking his stuff is a hyena. In fact I could pull out many killmails that suggests its a very bad idea.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.11.02 16:21:00 - [277]
 

Originally by: Dharh
Of course flagging will be necessary. If you take what I have 'claimed', which includes the mission space, I should be able to defend it.
If CONCORD didn't interfere in mission space — as you suggested — then flagging wouldn't be needed. You could just blow the other guy away on sight.
Quote:
No it wouldn't. Mission running's purpose is to inject ISK into the system, and to provide LP and standing to the mission runner. Missions will always be able to provide this regardless.
Yes, but with your suggestion, no-one would ever run them (if the forums are to be believed) since all mission-space would become lowsec for all intents and purposes — again: what you suggested was no CONCORD interference. So nasty evil gankers would just blow MRs up as they scanned them down, and then wait the timer out before returning to station.
Quote:
If it isn't bad to salvage, why is it bad to loot?
Because the loot is part of the reward of destroying the ship, and part of the balance that the determines how hard that should be. You've earned the loot by activating your weapons on the ship; you earn the salvage by activating your salvager on the wreck.

Garr Anders
Minmatar
The Red Circle Inc.
Posted - 2009.11.02 16:30:00 - [278]
 

Oh this one isnt locked yet? :D

As it has been discussed more than enough, here my proposal to "fix" it:

In the Assembly Hall: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1207847

Quote:
[Proposal] Scan-able wrecks and containers/strengthen the salvager profession

Proposal:

  • * Make wrecks and containers scan-able with scan probes.




Motivation:

  • This would strengthen the salvager as independent profession and would allow them to scan for the wrecks that are left behind by mission runners, rather than the need to scan for the active mission runner in his mission.

  • This would ease on the relation ship between mission runners and salvagers as the salvager does not need to salvage the wrecks under the eyes of an active mission runner, especially since the mission runners still think that salvage belongs to them, which is not the case as stated by CCP several times.

  • It would also relieve the database from maintaining left behind wrecks for the full two hours and could works as player driven "database cleaning" of objects.




Some further thoughts:

It should be more difficult to get a hit on a wreck than on a ship in general.

AFAIK deadspaces "cover" players ships slightly from scanning making it slightly more difficult to scan them when they are in a deadspace (in the old system).
In the old system ppl were thus scanning for the drones rather than for the ship itself.
Im not sure how this works under the new system though.

    Scanning a ship does require special probes, namely the combat probes. So scanning a mission runner indirectly by using core probes to scan the wrecks would become possible, but you wouldnt know if one is inside till you get there.

    So to not make ppl abuse normal core probes to scan down mission runners "indirectly" it should be fairly difficult with cores to scan wrecks.

    Still this would at least allow you to scan down for those wrecks that get left behind by a mission runner or left behind by exploration site users who didnt clean up their exploration site.

    In addition since deadspaces areas dissapear after a while the "covering" of it (as stated above) will dissapear too (if it still exist), so it could be that scanning wrecks in a not active mission could/can be easier than scanning for wrecks in an active mission


Further, :
  • It's not Ninja salvaging, since currently you're doing it right under the nose of the mission runner. There is nothing stealthy about it Wink. It would be ninja if you could do it without noticing the salvager.

  • It's not stealing as CCP has stated several times that they want salvaging to be an independent profession.

Wiley Peterson
Posted - 2009.11.02 16:39:00 - [279]
 

Does anyone have any evidence that salvage represent 20-30% of total mission rewards. I counted up my earnings from 4 level 2 mission runs last night. Bounties were approx 450k, rewards were about 290k, loot was less than 200k, salvage was 1.8 million.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.11.02 16:46:00 - [280]
 

Originally by: Wiley Peterson
Does anyone have any evidence that salvage represent 20-30% of total mission rewards.
Yes.
Quote:
I counted up my earnings from 4 level 2 mission runs last night.
L2s are a transitional phase that everyone goes through and which don't add much in the larger scale of things.

Wiley Peterson
Posted - 2009.11.02 16:57:00 - [281]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Wiley Peterson
Does anyone have any evidence that salvage represent 20-30% of total mission rewards.
Yes.
Quote:
I counted up my earnings from 4 level 2 mission runs last night.
L2s are a transitional phase that everyone goes through and which don't add much in the larger scale of things.


Well in about half of my missions so far I have had ninjas popping up. If they start salvaging while I am still fighting rats, I usually warp away, but this makes it a lot longer to complete missions. So at my level, they are making it really difficult to progress, ISK-wise.

If I was making more from the rewards plus bounty, I wouldn't mind them so much, as I would be better off finishing the mission quicker and moving on to the next one. Maybe if they just let the salvage stay for an hour, even if the mission is turned in or quit there could be a balance.

Captain Tardbar
State Protectorate
Posted - 2009.11.02 16:59:00 - [282]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Wiley Peterson
Does anyone have any evidence that salvage represent 20-30% of total mission rewards.
Yes.
Quote:
I counted up my earnings from 4 level 2 mission runs last night.
L2s are a transitional phase that everyone goes through and which don't add much in the larger scale of things.


Even so... You are not simply entitled to that income by the intended game mechanics. It just so happens some of the salvaged material is worth a good deal.

Perhaps the truth of the matter is that profit from salvaging is too high to begin with and should be reduced because there is no risk in earning it.

Perhaps we will make a compromise, wrecks in high sec are by default open to the public and can be salvaged by anyone.

Wrecks in low sec, null sec, and WH are by default yours and will cause a criminal flag and give you kill rights on the offending ninja savager.

There... With the added risk versus reward, you now have an incentive to move out to low sec.

Camios
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2009.11.02 17:20:00 - [283]
 

I have found the solution.

Lvl 4 mission runners would like to shoot at ninjia salvagers?
Let them do it.
There are some possibilities:
1)move all l4 to lowsec
2)make all lvl4 deadspaces aggression free, in the sense that concord cannot see what is happening there (why otherwise they will ask you to go there instead of calling the police) so you can shoot them (but they can shoot you).

I think that this change would be reasonable since you can make a lot of money from lvl4 without any risk. This would be a nerf to lvl4, but a nerf to salvaging too (salvaged materials price would rocket up maybe)

Otherwise, the fact of being ninjia salvaged compensates a bit for the fact that lvl4 missioning in empire is more profitable than 0.0 ratting.

Dharh
Gallente
Ace Adventure Corp
Posted - 2009.11.02 17:57:00 - [284]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Dharh
Of course flagging will be necessary. If you take what I have 'claimed', which includes the mission space, I should be able to defend it.
If CONCORD didn't interfere in mission space — as you suggested — then flagging wouldn't be needed. You could just blow the other guy away on sight.


I was using flagging as a way to stop CONCORD from interfering. The mission runner must fire first, if the ninja attempts to attack, they might not get CONCORDED, but they would certainly get flagged for a few hours or days. They are now open to anyone in the guild EVEN in CONCORD space.

Originally by: Tippia
Quote:
No it wouldn't. Mission running's purpose is to inject ISK into the system, and to provide LP and standing to the mission runner. Missions will always be able to provide this regardless.
Yes, but with your suggestion, no-one would ever run them (if the forums are to be believed) since all mission-space would become lowsec for all intents and purposes — again: what you suggested was no CONCORD interference. So nasty evil gankers would just blow MRs up as they scanned them down, and then wait the timer out before returning to station.


They are lying liers who lie. They will do missions. I will do missions. You might even do a mission. Also the timer would last hours or days not 15 minutes. We would all adjust.

Originally by: Tippia
Quote:
If it isn't bad to salvage, why is it bad to loot?
Because the loot is part of the reward of destroying the ship, and part of the balance that the determines how hard that should be. You've earned the loot by activating your weapons on the ship; you earn the salvage by activating your salvager on the wreck.


I don't agree with that viewpoint of ownership. The only guaranteed reward should be the mission reward itself on completion. Everything else should be FFA.

Caldari Citizen4714
Posted - 2009.11.02 17:59:00 - [285]
 

Originally by: Isakova
its completely risk free
Not true.

If you'd said less risky, I would agree with you.

But there are a number of mission runners in motsu that will camp out in a that recon mission with the toxic gas cloud. Tens, if not hundreds of ninja salvager ships have been lost, mostly to deliberate mission runner action.

I had a friend lose a rigged covops before they had small rigs....

There is also the risk of getting attacked by rats. You can fly cheap and not care, but not everyone does. So saying there is no risk not true.

Originally by: Isakova
This is far too open for abuse, and is getting to the point where theres 2 ninjas for every 10 mission runner in a hub.
Looks like we need to start recruiting then. There are far too many missions where I'm the only ninja.

Picard Facepalm
Amarr
Posted - 2009.11.02 19:19:00 - [286]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
How about we make deadspaces equivalent to 0.0, with no CONCORD presence (which would explain why agents need expensive, unreliable pod pilots to go and do the job).
Then missioners could bring lots of risk to ninja salvagers.

Or maybe just make them lo-sec? So there's a small sec hit for initiating a fight but then you're good to go!




This. Throw in removal of ALL insurance, and we're good.

Kweel Nakashyn
shadow and cloaking
Yggdrasill.
Posted - 2009.11.02 19:42:00 - [287]
 

Ninja Salvage is fun.
Try it, you'll see.

You won't make more isk/hour than L4 !

It's pretty balanced.

Southern Suzy
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.11.02 19:54:00 - [288]
 

another 0/10 dead horse beating topic

Zxepa
Posted - 2009.11.02 22:48:00 - [289]
 

Why doesn't anyone see the supreme irony when comparing salvaging to high-sec missioning? You're complaining about a sub-profession being way too "easy" to accomplish whilst you yourself, reap the benefits of a likewise, extraordinarily simplistic game mechanic that is High-sec missioning.

You want to get rid of them? Grow some genitalia and pack your things to low-sec. Arguing that low-sec is much more risky than high-sec would defeat your claim to the salvage ninja occurrence because now it isn't about the salvage it's about you, again, wanting everything with the littlest effort possible to attain it. JUST ..like salvaging

Dharh
Gallente
Ace Adventure Corp
Posted - 2009.11.02 22:55:00 - [290]
 

Originally by: Zxepa
Why doesn't anyone see the supreme irony when comparing salvaging to high-sec missioning? You're complaining about a sub-profession being way too "easy" to accomplish whilst you yourself, reap the benefits of a likewise, extraordinarily simplistic game mechanic that is High-sec missioning.

You want to get rid of them? Grow some genitalia and pack your things to low-sec. Arguing that low-sec is much more risky than high-sec would defeat your claim to the salvage ninja occurrence because now it isn't about the salvage it's about you, again, wanting everything with the littlest effort possible to attain it. JUST ..like salvaging


I have to say I agree with this to an extent. Which is one of the reasons I want to make missioning in high sec harsher and low sec even harsher than it already is.

Wiley Peterson
Posted - 2009.11.02 23:59:00 - [291]
 

How about a simple adjustment of quantity and rewards?

What if the amount of salvage were quadrupled by 10? Salvage is lucrative because of supply and demand. By increasing supply, the price would drop siginificantly for individual pieces of salvage. The total amount of money from mission salvage would remain the same, but it would require more trips to and from the mission site, and/or larger cargo holds, with less isk/hour.

What if, in addition to the above, the bonus time reward was quadrupled, and addtional loyalty points given? If the runner had to make a real choice between the bonus reward and salvage, it would leave a door open for the professional salvager without upsetting the runner.

Lendwill
Posted - 2009.11.03 04:43:00 - [292]
 

Edited by: Lendwill on 03/11/2009 04:49:15
Sorry I didn't read the first 10 pages, but here is what I would consider the rough idea of a solution.

Allow a mission runner to offer a salvaging rights contract to another player/corp. That means that the player with the contract can salvage the runner's mission for an agreed-upon price. The rights to the salvage (not the loot) then belongs to the salvager holding the contract, and that salvager would get kill rights on any unauthorized salvager. However, the length of time the salvager has to salvage before it becomes open property is very short - 10 minutes or so. After that, anyone can salvage.

A salvaging rights contract would only be valid in a system where both the salvager and the mission runner have a certain standing.

This will allow the creation of professional salvagers. The price of the contract could even be zero, allowing corp members to do it for them. The ten minute time limit means the salvager has to be quick, and is taking risks to get to the salvage. It also doesn't reward mission runners who are too lazy to get people to salvage for them, who abandon their loot, or who have bad standings with the system they are missioning in.

It would also generate conflict between the salvagers themselves, making it not quite the easy money it currently is.

goodby4u
Valor Inc.
Valor Empire
Posted - 2009.11.03 07:14:00 - [293]
 

Tbh salvaging should be a criminal act just as stealing one's loot is, however nerf past this should not occur as to maintain the "you only have what you can protect" aspect of eve.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.11.03 07:21:00 - [294]
 

Originally by: Lendwill
Edited by: Lendwill on 03/11/2009 04:49:15
Sorry I didn't read the first 10 pages, but here is what I would consider the rough idea of a solution.

Allow a mission runner to offer a salvaging rights contract...


That would nothing more than asserting that the mission runner has those rights - while currently they dont. That's a large boost to the mission-running profession - I'd be very interested to hear an explanation as to why hi-sec mission running needs any boosting.

goodby4u
Valor Inc.
Valor Empire
Posted - 2009.11.03 07:30:00 - [295]
 

It doesn't need boosting, however I simply wish to be able to shoot someone who steals from me. Very Happy

Seems fair to me.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.11.03 07:38:00 - [296]
 

Originally by: goodby4u
It doesn't need boosting, however I simply wish to be able to shoot someone who steals from me. Very Happy

Seems fair to me.


Sounds about as fair as being allowed to shoot someone who puts his mining lasers on a rock you are already mining from. Rolling Eyes

Has it not been explained over and over and over again that salvage is qualitatively different from loot, in that modules must be activated, skills applied, time spent in order to make salvage from a wreck? Why is this simple concept so difficult for people to understand?

That to the side, I trust I have your support for my proposal to make combat mission deadspaces lo-sec. That way you can shoot salvagers even before they "steal" any of "your" salvage. Admittedly, you will take a small sec-hit if you do so, but as long as you dont pod, then you should be fine. And you must concede that if they were space that CONCORD wont go in to, it would make much more sense that an agent is willing to pay you millions of ISK to go there.

goodby4u
Valor Inc.
Valor Empire
Posted - 2009.11.03 07:51:00 - [297]
 

Edited by: goodby4u on 03/11/2009 07:52:52
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: goodby4u
It doesn't need boosting, however I simply wish to be able to shoot someone who steals from me. Very Happy

Seems fair to me.


Sounds about as fair as being allowed to shoot someone who puts his mining lasers on a rock you are already mining from. Rolling Eyes

Has it not been explained over and over and over again that salvage is qualitatively different from loot, in that modules must be activated, skills applied, time spent in order to make salvage from a wreck? Why is this simple concept so difficult for people to understand?


Let us say for instance somebody runs over and takes your stuff, would you not wish to have the ability to kill him/her?

Ninja salvaging is just the same as taking loot from a wreck, the only difference is you need to activate a module to do it.

If you are proposing that the coding for making salvaging a flag-able offense is impossible then I disagree, given it is much more difficult then it may sound on paper I wouldn't call it impossible.

As far as moving all lvl4+ missions to lowsec I may agree, however if this were to happen ccp would lose a large chunk of their playerbase and/or the people living in highsec will simply find another way to make a chunk of isk in highsec.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.11.03 10:17:00 - [298]
 

Originally by: goodby4u
Let us say for instance somebody runs over and takes your stuff, would you not wish to have the ability to kill him/her?
…and as it happens, you can already do this.
Quote:
Ninja salvaging is just the same as taking loot from a wreck, the only difference is you need to activate a module to do it.
So it's different in that you have to activate a module to earn it. Except, of course, that it isn't different from loot in that way — in fact, it's exactly like loot in that way, which is what explains why the loot is yours and the salvage isnt:

Activate weapon → creates loot → loot is yours.
Activate salvager → creates salvage → salvage is yours.

Notice how activating a weapon doesn't create salvage? If it's not you, specifically, who activates that salvager, why on earth should the salvage be yours? You didn't create it.

Yosarian
Koshaku
Posted - 2009.11.03 10:26:00 - [299]
 

- Have salvaging activate an aggression timer just like taking something from a wreck / can

- Have the timer last considerably longer than 15 mins. Personally I'd say 24 hours

Still means it's perfectly possible: but opens up more opportunity for revenge. Seems pretty Eve to me

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2009.11.03 10:30:00 - [300]
 

It should be possible to steal mission runners' ships as well as their loot. Hacking V, activate module, board ship and shoot carebear in face.


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