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blankseplocked Is ninja looting an oversight in view of the nerf hammer?
 
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Isakova
Posted - 2009.05.07 19:17:00 - [1]
 

First off let me say, I've done it and I've had it done to me. Since resubbing my second account it's never an issue but my question is as follows.

Generally overpowered in EVE means far too easy to do, profitable/useful with very little risk. People are trying to get L4s pushed to low sec for this very reason.

People got Falcons nerfed for this reason. Webbers, drones too.

Ninja salvaging. Probing out deadspace is so easy newbies do it with great success. It doesn't flagging you to salvage another person wreck (I know CCPs stand on this, it makes sense) it is intentionally done in these unbalanced L4 missions (;)) because noone can aggro them, and if they choose to steal some nice drop, they will be away before they've even lost 50% shields because no mission runner carries a scram.

I don't know what to suggest as its a fun game mechanic, but its completely risk free, ridiculously easy to do, and in many cases highly profitable. L4 mission loot and salvage without the investment in ships / time / standing gains/losses to get them. I tried it with my second account while running an L4 mission and it was easy. This is far too open for abuse, and is getting to the point where theres 2 ninjas for every 10 mission runner in a hub.

Tai Khuc
Garoun Investment Bank
Posted - 2009.05.07 19:21:00 - [2]
 

Loot = Belongs to the person who's name is on the wreck i.e. the owner.

Salvage = Belongs to anyone thus no criminal flagging etc.


Working as intended and there is nothing wrong with it.

Isakova
Posted - 2009.05.07 19:22:00 - [3]
 

Yes nice cut and paste.

Completely overlooking my point.

Ninja salvaging in mission deadspace is pretty much consequence free, not in an asteroid belt.

Cutie Chaser
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
Posted - 2009.05.07 19:24:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Isakova

Ninja salvaging. Probing out deadspace is so easy newbies do it with great success. It doesn't flagging you to salvage another person wreck (I know CCPs stand on this, it makes sense) it is intentionally done in these unbalanced L4 missions (;)) because noone can aggro them, and if they choose to steal some nice drop, they will be away before they've even lost 50% shields because no mission runner carries a scram.

I don't know what to suggest as its a fun game mechanic, but its completely risk free, ridiculously easy to do, and in many cases highly profitable. L4 mission loot and salvage without the investment in ships / time / standing gains/losses to get them. I tried it with my second account while running an L4 mission and it was easy. This is far too open for abuse, and is getting to the point where theres 2 ninjas for every 10 mission runner in a hub.


It is the lions job to run the hyenas off of his kill; if he'd rather share then feast then he dines with filth.


THE L0CK
Posted - 2009.05.07 19:26:00 - [5]
 

I feel I belong in this thread.

Isakova
Posted - 2009.05.07 19:29:00 - [6]
 

I can probe out mission space, get in, bm it, warp out, get my salvager, warp back again, start salvaging while the mission owner has full room aggro.

If I see his drones heading back to him, I know he's on his way out. I can loot too, I know he wont shoot me because it's futile, would be quicker to warp out and hope rats give aggro. There's really nothing a person can do to counter it. I think if probing out deadspace was made harder, or riskier, I don't care about the changes to the mechanics, but it the sheer ease of it and the amount of newbies doing it, it's become ridiculous.

Alora Venoda
GalTech
Whiskey Creek Alliance
Posted - 2009.05.07 19:29:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Alora Venoda on 07/05/2009 19:30:24
perhaps then mission intruders (in hi-sec) should get nerfed?

how about all unknown pilots upon entering a mission deadspace belonging to someone else get flagged to the mission owner (and his corp) for trespassing...

if you are in same gang, corp, or have high standings with mission owner, there is no aggro.

Clair Bear
Ursine Research and Production
Posted - 2009.05.07 19:30:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Cutie Chaser

It is the lions job to run the hyenas off of his kill; if he'd rather share then feast then he dines with filth.



AFAIK the lion on the savanna doesn't get insta-slain for taking a big chunk out of a hyena.


Isakova
Posted - 2009.05.07 19:32:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Alora Venoda
perhaps then mission intruders (in hi-sec) should get nerfed?

how about all unknown pilots upon entering a mission deadspace belonging to someone else get flagged to the mission owner for trespassing...

if you are in same gang, corp, or have high standings with mission owner, there is no aggro.


I don't think it needs to be that serious, just make it harder to probe out mission space or something. What you suggest takes it too close to instancing. I don't know what the solution would be, but I guarantee if you do 10 missions in a l4 hub, near half of them would be interrupted.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2009.05.07 19:37:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 07/05/2009 19:37:53

Yeah, you are right, this is a complete and utter travesty, how they dare make looting a criminal act while salvaging isn't ?
Solution : make looting NOT a criminal act Twisted Evil

Get the stuff first or blow up the wreck, your choice.

Alora Venoda
GalTech
Whiskey Creek Alliance
Posted - 2009.05.07 19:45:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Alora Venoda on 07/05/2009 19:49:11
Originally by: Isakova

I don't think it needs to be that serious, just make it harder to probe out mission space or something. What you suggest takes it too close to instancing. I don't know what the solution would be, but I guarantee if you do 10 missions in a l4 hub, near half of them would be interrupted.


well i certainly agree that probing out a mission deadspace should require enough skills that a month-old newb should not have much success. like, it should add a lot of deviation and reduce signatures inside it or something.

i do find it unfair that someone can invade your mission and steal your salvage and there is nothing you can do about it other than:

1. bumping him a lot
2. salvaging faster than him
3. leave so that NPC's may attack him

only #2 is a remotely reasonable option, but you would really need a 2nd account or a friend in order to do it.

perhaps a fair compromise would be to flag for salvage-stealing, but ONLY inside an active mission deadspace (mission NPC wrecks are already owned by mission owner regardless of who kills them).

Isakova
Posted - 2009.05.07 19:57:00 - [12]
 

I agree, I think the problem being I measure how fair and balanced an issue is by what alternative / counter there is.

Ninja salvaging there is none. You can't even shoot the person flying around salvaging the wrecks.

Fair enough, wrecks are just that, wrecks, floating in space for anyone to steal. But inside a mission space, they are spawned by the mission owner, for the sole purpose of doing said mission. They are not belt rats spawning indefinately, or complexes. Before owner of mission pressed Accept, they didn't exist. I dunno, perhaps if there was a grace period in deadspace only - who knows. It's just a problem I see, I don't wield the nerf stick so it's not my decision to make.

Liz Laser
The New Era
C0NVICTED
Posted - 2009.05.07 20:15:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Liz Laser on 07/05/2009 20:16:33
Originally by: Alora Venoda

i do find it unfair that someone can invade your mission and steal your salvage and there is nothing you can do about it other than...

Quote:


The thing is... it isn't "your" salvage.

Mission runners were happily running missions before CCP invented the profession of salvaging. CCP ADDED salvaging to the game, and in a typical greed-driven player thought process, the missioners (and ratters) want the ADDED benefit of salvaging for themselves rather than allowing someone more dedicated to the profession to ply their trade.

I've never ninja'd salvage. I do tend to salvage wrecks I killed when no one else is around to do it. But I don't get all huffy if someone gets to it before I do.

Let me stress a previous point: missioning and ratting were worthwhile endeavors long before salvaging ever existed.

This topic is like watching two fat kids fight over who gets more whipped cream on their banana split, when what they should really do is eat their da*n vegetables.

Isakova
Posted - 2009.05.07 20:23:00 - [14]
 

Having had a quick think about this, my solution would be:

No bookmarking deadspace. Would mean if you want to probe out / salvage missions, you have to use the same ship. You either lose your probing bonus OR lose your number of high slots / chance to lose your covops to 1 -2 volley from a mission runner.

The knock ons would hit salvage alts / salvage buddies etc, and the odd warp in warp out mission, but that would please all the "nerf l4" lot too.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.05.07 20:30:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Isakova
This is far too open for abuse, and is getting to the point where theres 2 ninjas for every 10 mission runner in a hub.
Solution: don't be in a hub.

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2009.05.07 20:40:00 - [16]
 

Sadly i can never find someone who is intrested in salvaging my missions, even angel extravaganza usually has no people intrested. Granted i dont mission in a hub, but still.

Overseer Aliena
Caldari
Posted - 2009.05.07 20:44:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Isakova
This is far too open for abuse, and is getting to the point where theres 2 ninjas for every 10 mission runner in a hub.
Solution: don't be in a hub.


No longer a solution. Even in the remote out of the way backwater poor quality agent locations ninja looters are sprouting up because at some point in time even they figured out that is where mission runners are going.

dankness420
Posted - 2009.05.07 20:52:00 - [18]
 

here is a suggestion....


fit a scram?

Micheal Dietrich
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2009.05.07 20:57:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: dankness420
here is a suggestion....


fit a scram?


Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Junko Togawa
Caldari
Posted - 2009.05.07 21:06:00 - [20]
 

Here's an idea.

1)Change all missions to mission deadspace, requiring the passing of an acceleration gate.
2)Make it impossible to pass an acceleration gate unless you are the person who accepted the mission or are fleeted with the person who has it.
3)Remove flagging for can theft on wrecks spawned in mission deadspace and make it possible for anyone to tractor them.
4)Make it possible to scan down and warp to wrecks.

Result: Those who want to keep their loot and salvage secure can return to the mission deadspace before turn-in and clean up. Those who do not can turn in their mission, and the scavengers can then fight amongst each other over who gets the leftovers.

Summation: Happy carebears get safe salvage, true salvagers get a new abundance of wrecks unlike any other, gankbears looking to grief runners get to emorage on forums for my lulz. ugh

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.05.07 21:08:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Junko Togawa
Summation: Happy carebears get safe salvage, true salvagers get a new abundance of wrecks unlike any other, gankbears looking to grief runners get to emorage on forums for my lulz. ugh
In other words, a poor solution.

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2009.05.07 21:11:00 - [22]
 

Fit a tractor beam (haha poor minnie/amarr mission runners), loot bs wrecks near your ship, wish the salvagers fun with their stuff. And ask them if they want to be fleeted so they can tractor the wrecks.

Isakova
Posted - 2009.05.07 21:11:00 - [23]
 

Here's the problem. My scram doesn't work at 20-50km, which is generally the distanced travelled in a mission.

Also, a huge portion of the mildly intelligent ones use neutal RRs and wait to gank your mission ship too. It's a lose lose for everyone but the ninja carebears.

Isakova
Posted - 2009.05.07 21:17:00 - [24]
 

What amuses me is ninja high sec salvagers using the word carebear as an insult. Seriously, 0 risk mission runner griefing - how much more carebear can you get? Take that **** to low sec? Didn't think so.

RedSplat
Posted - 2009.05.07 21:23:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Isakova
What amuses me is ninja high sec salvagers using the word carebear as an insult. Seriously, 0 risk mission runner griefing - how much more carebear can you get? Take that **** to low sec? Didn't think so.


Mission in Lowsec and you can shoot at them freely tuff guy Wink

Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
Posted - 2009.05.07 21:23:00 - [26]
 

I think an interesting solution would be to make deadspace a complete free-fire zone. Effectively a nerf to both missioning and ninja salvaging while fair to both, and it would make empire interesting.

I run missions and I hate it. But I hate all the other ways of making money even more. If they could be spiced up and have them be nerfed a bit to make mining more profitable (as it should be), that would work out for everyone. And then the people who are afraid of fighting can go mine veldespar, as they should.

Weight What
Gallente
Posted - 2009.05.07 21:24:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: RedSplat
Originally by: Isakova
What amuses me is ninja high sec salvagers using the word carebear as an insult. Seriously, 0 risk mission runner griefing - how much more carebear can you get? Take that **** to low sec? Didn't think so.


Mission in Lowsec and you can shoot at them freely tuff guy Wink



How come there are no ninja salvagers in low sec mission areas? This is a more important question, I feel Idea

Isakova
Posted - 2009.05.07 21:26:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Isakova on 07/05/2009 21:26:33
Originally by: Emperor Cheney
I think an interesting solution would be to make deadspace a complete free-fire zone. Effectively a nerf to both missioning and ninja salvaging while fair to both, and it would make empire interesting.

I run missions and I hate it. But I hate all the other ways of making money even more. If they could be spiced up and have them be nerfed a bit to make mining more profitable (as it should be), that would work out for everyone. And then the people who are afraid of fighting can go mine veldespar, as they should.


This would work well in conjuction with my suggestion I think maybe. As it stands now, anyone probes out a mission runner, gets their friends, warps in, destroys person set with mission spec hardeners taking full room aggro, tidies off his mission thus stealing his bounties and salvage and docks again. Who'd bother doing anything but sitting outside stations pretending to be PVPers with finger hovered over dock key :D

Also, there are no ninja salvagers in low sec, because in high sec its completely consequence free.

dankness420
Posted - 2009.05.07 21:29:00 - [29]
 

i think the truth is that if you are living in empire to begin with you are a carebear

instanced pvp is the last thing this game needs

Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
Posted - 2009.05.07 21:30:00 - [30]
 

The downside is you'd have gank gangs effectively shutting down missioning. But if shooting someone in deadspace also led to a small security status drop, that would balance that out. Missioners can shoot salvagers, gankers can kill everyone but only so much before they get booted, and salvagers suddenly have the most fun in the game trying to avoid everyone in their little frigs.


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