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Eaiaden
Minmatar
The Institution.
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2009.05.07 11:11:00 - [1]
 

So, im working on this ship now, and the fitting options are stupid.

Armor tank = too few slot to make it any good, even with full gazillion ISK officer mods.

Shield tank = semi good, but still silly expensive.

Agreed, it is unquestionable THE BEST RR boat in the game.

But slapping on officer mods for 10bill on a 12bill ship just seems wrong to me, so any realistic setups would be mutch appreciated.


---------

And for all you whiners, i know minmatar caps sucks donkey, but hey, they are the coolest looking in the game, so bite meh Laughing

Wideen
Total Mayhem.
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2009.05.07 11:17:00 - [2]
 

I don't know much about fitting an MS but I don't rly see why the shield tank would be more expensive than an armor tank?

Just slap on at least 3 x CN/DG invuln fields along with a CN/DG photon scattering field and a suitcase II, that ought to give you good resist. Maybe a shield boost amp (faction/officer) as well.

And cap shield boosters don't cost much.

So cost wise, I think you'll be fine, given that the ship itself cost about, what, 16b?

GL with your Hel, the most beautiful ship ingame (if you're looking to sell I'll be happy to put up a fake buy contract Wink)

Sonreir
Gallente
Paragon Fury
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2009.05.07 12:07:00 - [3]
 

Most folks I know are more than happy to spend 10 mill fitting out a T1 cruiser.
Even fitting out a Stealth Bomber these days is gonna set you back another 40 mill.
10 bill fitting on at 12 bill ships seems like a pretty good ratio to me.

EFT Warrior
Posted - 2009.05.07 12:09:00 - [4]
 

[Hel, Pew Pew]
True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay
True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay
True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay
True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay
Damage Control II

Capital Shield Booster I
Dread Guristas Invulnerability Field
Dread Guristas Invulnerability Field
Dread Guristas Heat Dissipation Field
Dread Guristas Photon Scattering Field
Shadow Serpentis Sensor Booster, Scan Resolution
Domination Warp Disruptor

Capital Shield Transporter I
Capital Shield Transporter I
Capital Remote Armor Repair System I
Capital Remote Armor Repair System I
Dark Blood Heavy Energy Neutralizer
Estamel's Modified Large Graviton Smartbomb

Capacitor Control Circuit II
Capacitor Control Circuit II
Capacitor Control Circuit I

Will permanantely run 2 of any remote reppers, but won't quite run the booster and a repper at the same time. You may consider dropping the DCU from the low, but I wouldn't unless you have overwhelming shield rep on the field.

And yes, supercapitals are meant to fit out officer mods, the only other one to fit it on is the titan and I think they're better used for a mothership anyway. There is no shame in going crazy on officer fits with this ship.

Gyro DuAquin1
Ev0ke
Posted - 2009.05.07 12:48:00 - [5]
 

TBH i think that shield tanking on an ms is no real option

first its pretty expensive
second most caps only have remote armor rep - that that itll help much with a few dreads hammering on you, but it might be a good idea to be on the same page as the rest of your gang
third, cap you get problems with your cap with an shield tank.

I would probally stick to a core x type active armor tank with 1 rep and a dc.

In general i think that ms tanks are overrated, sureley those ships can take a beating but in against agaisnt a decent fleet youll go down in no time.
So when you wanna use it as epeen/logistic tool and to hotdrop smaller gangs, stick to a armor tank with tackle gear and a sb.

Bodo Bass
Minmatar
Templars of Space
Posted - 2009.05.07 16:14:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Bodo Bass on 07/05/2009 16:14:46
agreed

you can fit a Hel with an armour tank for half the price of a shield tank with only 500k HP less and no need whatsoever to put in those extremely expensive and overated officer cap recharger things.

if the enemy gets enough dreads on you you'll be dead in no time. doesn't even matter if you have T2 or 6 bil cap rechargers
considering that a Hel should be fitted as an armour boat and not as a shield boat

and yes, it is the best looking MS in the game


EFT Warrior
Posted - 2009.05.07 17:24:00 - [7]
 

That is a terrible argument, 3/4ths of the carriers can fit shield reps (and should) and the Hel should be shield tanked, anyone that doesn't use their ship to it's fullest extent is an idiot. Of course, you can have fun with a 5 slot armor tank with lower resists on your Hel if you want, letting you die that much quicker and to spite you your enemies will be alive longer, as laughter promotes longevity.

Eaiaden
Minmatar
The Institution.
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2009.05.07 17:46:00 - [8]
 

Well for sake of argument, the shield tank EFT posted gives roughly 3.2mill EHP (exact 3.191.744)

You say for "only" 500k less EHP you can make an valid armor tank, lets see it, im wery interrested to see if this is possible to get almost 3mill EHP armor tank on this ship.

Eaiaden
Minmatar
The Institution.
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2009.05.07 17:56:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Eaiaden on 07/05/2009 17:56:50
@EFT warrior.

What if i change the CCC I rig to a shield extender II.

Giving me a total of EHP 3.546.204 and still cap stable (although barely) with running 2 RR's.

In a defensive situation i can run local tank + neut + point and be stable at 46% (blah) - but is the increased buffer tank worth the lower cap recharge?


EDIT: Typos

Grista
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2009.05.07 18:15:00 - [10]
 

Here's a serious question to ask yourself:

How many carrier pilots could you buy for the price of a MS + fittings?


EFT Warrior
Posted - 2009.05.07 18:23:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Eaiaden
Edited by: Eaiaden on 07/05/2009 17:56:50
@EFT warrior.

What if i change the CCC I rig to a shield extender II.

Giving me a total of EHP 3.546.204 and still cap stable (although barely) with running 2 RR's.

In a defensive situation i can run local tank + neut + point and be stable at 46% (blah) - but is the increased buffer tank worth the lower cap recharge?


EDIT: Typos
If you are getting neuted that will bring down your cap stability further, but you'd need to test to see if that would break your cap stability. Drag a few heavy neuts and judge the difference between having a CCC and a shield extender.

Eaiaden
Minmatar
The Institution.
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2009.05.07 18:50:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Grista
Here's a serious question to ask yourself:

How many carrier pilots could you buy for the price of a MS + fittings?




I been a carrier pilot for the better part of a year now, dread pilot for half a year, its called evolution, this is the next step for me unless i want to start cross train to other races, regardless of how many carriers i can get for the price of a mom.

Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
Posted - 2009.05.07 18:54:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Eaiaden
its called evolution


If you want evolution for the sake of evolution then go for a titan. Otherwise stick with dreads.


Mhorbaine
Beyond Divinity Inc
Posted - 2009.05.07 19:09:00 - [14]
 

it all depends on what your doing with the mom before you decide how to tank it... been arguing long and hard with muad'dib about this in corp for when he finally gets his ass in one (it's my dream boat so always worth an argument over it)

small gang work (e-peen moments) you need the shield tank i.e. 3x pith-x hardeners, faction invuln, booster etc... gives you a reasonable tank but nothing insanely special - shoulda got a wyvern if thats your cup of tea

However this mom is designed for large gang logistics and as such you need to fit accordingly...

have a look at potentially fitting dcu/3x a-type eanms (or x-type hardeners your call)/repper with your mids as cap recharge/sensor booster/point (lo sec work), highs pretty standard mom fittings...

with trimark ii's, slaves and damnation (no offence but what large fleet nowadays rolls without damnation) you get over 1million raw armour hp, with a decent resist level and your also inline with ur RR base - much love to chimmys/shield tankers but real men armor tank and the amount of thannys/archons in comparison to chimmys in most fleets is a bit daft...

if you want to argue the toss about EHP then that armour tank has between 5 n 6 mill i think (but as with most super caps, without friends there to rr/get you out then that just gives you more time to sit n spin whilst your world burns around u)

Arbiter Reborn
Posted - 2009.05.07 19:52:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: arbiter reborn on 07/05/2009 19:53:14
well if you kinda got too at least faction shieldtankit, and you cant blame him for getting a hel its sexy as,

ArmyOfMe
Hysera.
Posted - 2009.05.07 20:18:00 - [16]
 

go for a shield tank, even though they are more expensive then armor tanks, they will also perform better.
just make damn sure to use it with other moms that have shield transfers fitted.

Anubis Xian
Ministry of War
Posted - 2009.05.07 21:05:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Crackzilla
Originally by: Eaiaden
its called evolution


If you want evolution for the sake of evolution then go for a titan. Otherwise stick with dreads.




Once you get in a Titan, your life of doing interesting things is over. At least a mothership has a place on the average battlefield.

Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
Posted - 2009.05.07 21:20:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Anubis Xian

Once you get in a Titan, your life of doing interesting things is over.


I'd argue the same with a mothership.

You really shouldn't be parking it so then you need an alt to have fun.


Originally by: Anubis Xian
At least a mothership has a place on the average battlefield.


Just outside of a pos assigning fighters?

Only time a mothership is going to be used seriously is a major fight with a fleet as support. A mothership isn't suitable for 95% of the day to day fights.

Noodly Appendage
Minmatar
Pator Tech School
Posted - 2009.05.07 21:45:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: EFT Warrior
That is a terrible argument, 3/4ths of the carriers can fit shield reps (and should) and the Hel should be shield tanked, anyone that doesn't use their ship to it's fullest extent is an idiot. Of course, you can have fun with a 5 slot armor tank with lower resists on your Hel if you want, letting you die that much quicker and to spite you your enemies will be alive longer, as laughter promotes longevity.


WIN POST DETECTED


Also, a hel fit:

[Hel, New Setup 1]
Brokara's Modified Capacitor Power Relay
Brokara's Modified Capacitor Power Relay
Brokara's Modified Capacitor Power Relay
Brokara's Modified Capacitor Power Relay
Brokara's Modified Capacitor Power Relay

Capital Shield Booster I
Gist X-Type Shield Boost Amplifier
Dread Guristas Invulnerability Field
Dread Guristas Invulnerability Field
Gist X-Type Heat Dissipation Field
Gist X-Type Photon Scattering Field
Domination Warp Disruptor

Capital Remote Armor Repair System I
Capital Shield Transporter I
Remote ECM Burst I
Tairei's Modified Large EMP Smartbomb
Tairei's Modified Large EMP Smartbomb
Kaikka's Modified Cloaking Device

Capacitor Control Circuit II
Capacitor Control Circuit II
Core Defence Field Extender II


Bodo Bass
Minmatar
Templars of Space
Posted - 2009.05.08 08:09:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Eaiaden
Well for sake of argument, the shield tank EFT posted gives roughly 3.2mill EHP (exact 3.191.744)

You say for "only" 500k less EHP you can make an valid armor tank, lets see it, im wery interrested to see if this is possible to get almost 3mill EHP armor tank on this ship.



Poor soul, i would say. Seems i get as more armour HP on my Hel than the posted shieldtank whilst still being cap stable.


Gyro DuAquin1
Ev0ke
Posted - 2009.05.08 09:42:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: EFT Warrior
That is a terrible argument, 3/4ths of the carriers can fit shield reps (and should) and the Hel should be shield tanked, anyone that doesn't use their ship to it's fullest extent is an idiot. Of course, you can have fun with a 5 slot armor tank with lower resists on your Hel if you want, letting you die that much quicker and to spite you your enemies will be alive longer, as laughter promotes longevity.


Ok first of all its might be a terrible argument, but its the truth. Most ppl only have remote armor reps, some (caldari) might have remote shield reps. But in general most ppl will have two reps, neuts and smartbombs fitted and even some have those drone control units fitted.

Anyhow when you have a gang of carriers the amount of remote armor rep will be higher then remote shield rep, no matter if 3/4 could use it. Its simply more common. As the most carriers you see around are thanatos and archon, and after some change the nidh is also a pretty good armor tanker. So the only carrier you got that is purley a shield tanker is the chimera.

We could now argue about hwo great resits and ehp you get out of shield tanking but it has it flaws, lack of cap recharge, no tackle gear, no sb and so on. So an armor tanked hel that can hold down things, and lock even smaller ships in a resasonable amount of time is better then a hel that costs you tens of billions and cant hold down ****.
Cause no matter what eft sais, a few dreads will be your end. So most mom are used to hotdrop things or logistical support, therefore armor tank.

Noodly Appendage
Minmatar
Pator Tech School
Posted - 2009.05.08 09:55:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Gyro DuAquin1

Ok first of all its might be a terrible argument, but its the truth. Most ppl only have remote armor reps, some (caldari) might have remote shield reps. But in general most ppl will have two reps, neuts and smartbombs fitted and even some have those drone control units fitted.


Lies, there's a ****ton of chimeras around. Most popular race etc.

EFT Warrior
Posted - 2009.05.08 10:35:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Gyro DuAquin1
stuff
Except that shield tanks have higher cap recharge than their armor counterparts, because anyone with half a brain will be fitting their lows with CPRs in a shield tanking carrier/mothership, if for no other reason than CPRs give better cap recharge than CR mods and local tank doesn't mean a thing. As the amount of remote reppers goes up the only thing that matters on carriers/motherships are 1) local resists and 2) cap recharge, and shield tankers will beat armor tankers. Motherships can in fact fit a warp disrupter and sensor booster and tank just fine as well. Where's the logic in thinking a shield tanking mothership can't fit tackle?

Here, just to illustrate my point:

[Archon, Armor Tanker]
Capital Armor Repairer I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Damage Control II
Capacitor Power Relay II

Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Sensor Booster II

Capital Remote Armor Repair System I
Capital Remote Armor Repair System I
Heavy Energy Neutralizer II
Large EMP Smartbomb II
Capital Energy Transfer Array I

Capacitor Control Circuit I
Capacitor Control Circuit I
Capacitor Control Circuit I

This has 251/s cap regen and around 1.5 million EHP, a pretty sturdy Archon fit. It can't permarun both reppers at once but it can run 1 indefinitely and is fairly strong against neuts. It's saving grace is the ability for 2-3 carriers to use the cap transfer arrays to keep cap stable. 251/s recharge, 1.5m EHP.

[Chimera, Shield Tanker]
Beta Reactor Control: Capacitor Power Relay I
Beta Reactor Control: Capacitor Power Relay I
Beta Reactor Control: Capacitor Power Relay I
Damage Control II

Capital Shield Booster I
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Photon Scattering Field II
Heat Dissipation Field II
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution
Cap Recharger II

Capital Shield Transporter I
Capital Shield Transporter I
Capital Energy Transfer Array I
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Large Graviton Smartbomb II

Capacitor Control Circuit I
Capacitor Control Circuit I
Capacitor Control Circuit I

This has 278/s recharge and can also run 1 remote rep permanately. It is more cap intensive, but sports the same amount of EHP as the archon, with slightly more tank (about 100 more dps tank on passive shield regen). Again becomes cap stable with 2 remote reppers and an energy transfer circle. Switching out the DCU for a CPR will make it cap stable with 2 reppers, which I feel can be done as shield tanks rely less on the DCU as armor tankers. All resists are good to have, but it is a tough call.

Both carriers have the same amount of cap modules, but the chimera has the luxury of fitting CPRs, which give an additional 4% cap recharge per module. Invulnerability fields have higher innate resists than EANMs, and equal in the other hardeners.

If you compare resists the Chimera edges out for EM/thermal (surprisingly so) and the Archon for Kin/Exp. The average resists on the Chimera however are much higher, 82.5% versus 81.8%, and the Chimera beats the Archon at thermal by a whopping 9.8%, the Archon only beating out the Chimera in kin by 6% and exp by 1.4%. Of course this is only because I fit specific hardeners on each carrier.

EFT Warrior
Posted - 2009.05.08 10:41:00 - [24]
 

Comparing the motherships directly are much harder, because what is considered an "optimal" fit for them involve a wide variety of modules, not to mention they are very adaptable ships to begin with, as if you are fielding a mothership you have ample capital ships to back them up. A Nyx can get Naglfar-type damage with its drones and a few drone control units, or act as a heavy capital tackler by putting a point on it. Most motheships fall within all three areas (damage, logistics and enemy inhibition), but rarely does a mothership fit anything but one officer disruptor or scrambler for tackle.

Noodly Appendage
Minmatar
Pator Tech School
Posted - 2009.05.08 11:23:00 - [25]
 

EFT Warrior, don't bother with a DCU on the chimera, fit a 4th relay.

Eaiaden
Minmatar
The Institution.
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2009.05.08 13:39:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Bodo Bass
Originally by: Eaiaden
Well for sake of argument, the shield tank EFT posted gives roughly 3.2mill EHP (exact 3.191.744)

You say for "only" 500k less EHP you can make an valid armor tank, lets see it, im wery interrested to see if this is possible to get almost 3mill EHP armor tank on this ship.



Poor soul, i would say. Seems i get as more armour HP on my Hel than the posted shieldtank whilst still being cap stable.




Well prove it, what kinda mods are you using? - the ubberestwftpwngazillionISK mods or?

My whole point of this thread was not that I didnt know how to fit it, but how to keep the price at a reasonable lvl since this is a personal funded ship.

But if you have an awesome armor tank with so few slots, lets see it.

Cpt Constantinus
Corp 54
Posted - 2009.05.08 13:51:00 - [27]
 

I would go for the shieldtank.
If you dont have the isk for the realy expensive deadspace stuff atm
then just use faction till you can afford better stuff.

Mira O'karr
Posted - 2009.05.08 14:16:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Mira O''karr on 08/05/2009 14:21:36
Edited by: Mira O''karr on 08/05/2009 14:18:24
[Hel, hel armor]
Corpus A-Type Armor Explosive Hardener
Corpus A-Type Armor Kinetic Hardener
Capital Armor Repairer I
Corpus A-Type Armor Thermic Hardener
Damage Control II

Trimark Armor Pump II
Trimark Armor Pump II
Trimark Armor Pump I

thats 3 191 238 EHP

so yea .. but hmm

[Hel, hel armor]
Corpum A-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Corpum A-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Capital Armor Repairer I
Corpum A-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Damage Control II

Trimark Armor Pump II
Trimark Armor Pump II
Trimark Armor Pump I

3 814 608 EHP

i know nothing about MS though and this might be stupid or prohibitly expensive. certainly doesnt have the same self rep capability as the shield tanker.

[Hel, hel armor cheapo]
True Sansha Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
True Sansha Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Capital Armor Repairer I
True Sansha Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Damage Control II

Trimark Armor Pump II
Trimark Armor Pump II
Trimark Armor Pump I

3 266 665 EHP, still more ehp than your shield tanker it seems.


edit:
if you fly with a other Nyx and Aeons (which are the dominant mothership species) it think you ll do very well in that armor EHP fit.

most MS i see come in groups with extra carriers. rarely have i seen 1 MS with carrier group.



Zeerover
Wolfsbrigade
Posted - 2009.05.08 14:56:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Zeerover on 08/05/2009 14:57:19
Originally by: Mira O'karr


3 266 665 EHP, still more ehp than your shield tanker it seems.





Since we're comparing EFT fits:

[Hel, Shield tanking FTW]
Draclira's Modified Power Diagnostic System
Draclira's Modified Power Diagnostic System
Draclira's Modified Capacitor Power Relay
Draclira's Modified Capacitor Power Relay
Damage Control II

Pith X-Type Ballistic Deflection Field
Pith X-Type Heat Dissipation Field
Pith X-Type Photon Scattering Field
Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
Caldari Navy Shield Boost Amplifier
Capital Shield Booster I

[Whatever high slots suit your needs]

Core Defence Field Extender II
Core Defence Field Extender II
Core Defence Field Extender I

This Hel fit gets over 5 million EHP. It has great resists vs. EM, Thermal and Kinetic, which is helpful since most of the damage it will face is done by Revelations and Moros'es. Against lasers it still has 5 million EHP, against hybrids it goes above 6 million EHP.

The above fit is under a 1:1 ratio on the ship:fittings costs. We can go really insane and use Officer Invulnerability Fields, which will boost EHP by another million or two (6mill+ for uniform and lasers, 7.8mill for hybrids), but whatever.

Mira O'karr
Posted - 2009.05.08 15:10:00 - [30]
 

wow your fit is certainly a ton more expensive and i m not argueing what looks better on paper, it is definately the shield variety.

but consider you are in a gang with a few nyx and aeons (add a command ship even), wouldnt the armor tank make more sense?

it is a serious question. i dont fly MS and am wondering about the synergies.


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