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Nuts Nougat
SniggWaffe
FREE KARTTOON NOW
Posted - 2009.05.06 07:53:00 - [31]
 

Edited by: Nuts Nougat on 06/05/2009 07:52:59
CCP why not just do what relic did?

http://cohpatch.relic.com/index.html

This way people can use whatever client they want to download and upload only if they want etc... Plus torrents on official page == insane download speeds :P

Edit: page2 snypa

Poreuomai
Minmatar
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2009.05.06 08:13:00 - [32]
 

Erm No - I don't want my home PC to become a server, thank you very much.

In fact, I think many of us would (technically speaking) not be allowed to install such a deamon:



Quote:
F. Acceptable Use Policy

"... running any application or program that places excessive bandwidth demands on the Service for continued periods ..."

"... permit any third party to do any of the above ..."



http://www.virgin.net/terms/broadband_tc.shtml

Chi Quan
Bibkor Enterprises
Posted - 2009.05.06 10:44:00 - [33]
 

Edited by: Chi Quan on 06/05/2009 10:46:27
Quote:
http://www.virgin.net/terms/broadband_tc.shtml

this... ouch...
while i understand the desire to pay less, you literally GET less for this. they forbid you to even use the bw you PAY for? wtf?ugh

anyway, btt.
use bittorent and http/ftp sources. seriously, why reinvent the wheel? anyone not willing/able to use p2p will have to revert to classic methods either way, and anyone else can use any torrent client or os (yawwn bits) they want and trust. bitorrent will most likely be already configured and set up on most of the later systems anyway.

CCP Mephysto

Posted - 2009.05.06 10:57:00 - [34]
 

My apologies for a late reply (dentist ftl Sad).

If you open the control panel on your pc, after starting a download (and thus installing the Pando daemon), you'll find an icon that will allow configuration of the pando system, such as setting port and limiting upload speeds.

Mish'Kala
Minmatar
Between the lines
RAID Alliance
Posted - 2009.05.06 11:00:00 - [35]
 

is this Pando client going to be installed as standard by the eve installer?

If so, NO, Dont go there.

Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Emptiness.
Posted - 2009.05.06 11:32:00 - [36]
 

Seems this is another "fail"idea ..

Why ccp cannot try to keep this simple? For god's sake I have written update systems for 2 companies I worked on and its NOT THAT HARD to do something simple that works.

9 in 10 people do not want to spend their bandwidth to help others download.

I live in the other *#$&$!#@# side of the world and I have NEVER worried myself with the patch downloads being "slow". Now because SOME people , that must be very few because never heard of any, think their download of patches is too slow and I gonna have to pay to fix for them?

But I Do already have problem with their excessive size that eat up a lot of my month quota (no here there is NO OPTION for non quota internet access to physical persons), and i really will NOT spend any extra bit to help othe rpeople that CAN much more easily get better connections than me to do get the patch faster.




simple and direct. NO P2P IN MY MACHINE! NO DEAMON OF ANYTHING IN MY MACHINE! NO USING MY MONEY TO FIX YOUR PROBLEM!

Vir Hellnamin
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2009.05.06 11:42:00 - [37]
 

Is this something that eve-files.com has already running a top of normal bittorrent clients?
(http://webpeer.eve-files.com/ - or pick some bigger DL from there, like that kil2's vid and see how it goes).

Thus, why do you need extra installable 3rd party daemon for it?

Just summon Chribba here... :P (was it three times:ChribbaChribbaChribba!)

Murashu
Liberal Frontier Enterprises
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2009.05.06 12:07:00 - [38]
 

Welcome to 2009 folks! p2p has been used for years and shouldn't be an issue if you have the know how to tweak the settings. People have been asking for CCP to do something with the current patching system for a while now so they actually came up with an alternate method. It was stated multiple times that they would keep the old system yet the majority of the feedback has been from whiners who have no understanding of how p2p works so it must be horrible.

If you can't figure out how to change the upload settings from unlimited bandwidth to something smaller or just seed when you aren't using your computer then you should probably stick to the old method.

Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
Posted - 2009.05.06 12:12:00 - [39]
 

Hello Laughing

Sounds like what I am running but in their own daemon, which imo sounds like something I don't wish to have. I already run the services and control how my computer communicate with others, a "hidden" own service that utilize my resources just feels like a no thanks.

I'd suggest you look at solutions like I now have on EVE-Files since it utilize both my own network and the help of anyone using the torrent. Thus lighter load on my network and good experience for others (since torrent is awesome lol). And the best part is that it runs straight off the box (if you have a somewhat new client installed already) - and for those who doesn't, the old direct http option is still available.

The real test should come soon, when Clear Skies 2 is released, will be very interesting to see how it will perform but I have good faith in my solution *crosses my fingers*

CCP, you really need to think this over a lot before launching it fully, if that is your choice. Installing additional services that indirectly uses resources on users computers is usually not a good idea. The user should have to decide on that themselves. If this a question of reducing your own CDN load/costs - do take a look at the torrent ideas.

Vir Hellnamin
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2009.05.06 12:33:00 - [40]
 

Edited by: Vir Hellnamin on 06/05/2009 12:37:50

Laughing
(dang, it work'd \o/)

Also, yes, I don't have any problems about .torrents or distributing stuff that way (like eve-files' vids on my excess BW - which rocks!), but having some 3rd-party daemon sitting around... definitive no-go.

Gespenst Jager
Pumpkin Scissors
DarkSide.
Posted - 2009.05.06 12:44:00 - [41]
 

Quote:
Feedback about this new system gratefully received.

All your downloaders is broken. So please do NOT install this crap on my computer, and give me direct link to patch and client.

PS. There is no P2P in Pando Daemon - when i ask it download patch, it start download FULL client from ccp.vo.llnwd.net/o2/test/EVE_Premium_Setup_87566_test_m.exe (!!!!). Just leave direct links alone. If you want p2p - give link on .torrent file and all who want p2p download it with usual p2p-client.

Psihius
Caldari
Anarchist Dawn
U N K N O W N
Posted - 2009.05.06 12:52:00 - [42]
 

Edited by: Psihius on 06/05/2009 12:56:18
Edited by: Psihius on 06/05/2009 12:52:18
Bad idea. First it's a service, another one. I hate that idea, because there are too many services running already. Just use good old and proven torrents. Many local torrent sites will definitely help with seeding the client. That way you wont stress your server and ISP international traffic, witch is usually limited. There are players who will gladly help with seeding in their countries.
And yes, we already are using them - it's a ready to go infrastructure. Especially in countries like Russia - for many users downloading a 2.4GB client costs a lot of money, but downloading using a local bittorrent connections is for free and just incredibly faster - we have a member of our corp, who was downloading Apocrypha for 2 days. Using local torrent resources would did it in 1 hour.

Poreuomai
Minmatar
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2009.05.06 13:38:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: CCP Mephysto
My apologies for a late reply (dentist ftl Sad).

If you open the control panel on your pc, after starting a download (and thus installing the Pando daemon), you'll find an icon that will allow configuration of the pando system, such as setting port and limiting upload speeds.


The installer should first ask you whether you want to install Pando at all !

Aprudena Gist
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.05.06 13:47:00 - [44]
 

**** the hell off with leeching my bandwidth you stupid ****s.

Setup a Proper torrent system that has http seeders and the option to turn on/off peers like everyone else in the world does.

Trimutius III
Avalon Guards
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2009.05.06 14:28:00 - [45]
 

Hmm lol... i think if this stupid thing will do something with my CPU i will ban it from my computer. U know my CPU is hardly enough to run 4 clients at the same time. And yes i have 4 accounts and sometimes i run them at same time, because it boring always log off and log in, much easier have all 4 chars online all the time i'm playing...

Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2009.05.06 14:50:00 - [46]
 

I'll say no thanks, I don't want any downloading progs installed on my PC.

I would like a link option please, I've not yet had issues with any patch download.

omgdutch2005
Gallente
Advanced Planetary Exports
Intergalactic Exports Group
Posted - 2009.05.06 14:51:00 - [47]
 

Edited by: omgdutch2005 on 06/05/2009 15:00:16

if they let it run via SSL, and perhaps, FINALLY make a propper login thingy (so you dont constantly exit eve if you want to swap characters!!!!!)


no ISP can complain as they cant see whats going on in the SSL TCP/IP packets (and havving SSL connections is 100% legit)

and perhaps a auto char select screen like sony has (the lauchpad), might work splendid :)

*edit* i actually like the Q for were do you want to install eve to and stuff like that :D gg ! :)

the tool checks if there is a update and starts updating, and like in wow, make a option button were you can select if you want to use or not use the P2P feature...

just have a look at your fellow MMORPQ guys and look how their patch mechanism work, and copy the better parts of it (better stolen then badly thought off)

if you also would make the download check for exising files + CRC, it would speed up download progress a-lot if you have a out of date eve at your hdd already ;-)

Solbright
Advanced Security And Asset Protection
Posted - 2009.05.06 15:14:00 - [48]
 

P2P is great in theory. But in practise it impacts hugely on end-user's wallet when the end user is paying per MB.

Unless a P2P system prioritises geographically, it can never be mandatory.


Solbright
Advanced Security And Asset Protection
Posted - 2009.05.06 15:18:00 - [49]
 

Or more directly would be according to billing rates.


DTson Gauur
Caldari
Blend.
Nulli Tertius
Posted - 2009.05.06 16:43:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: CCP Mephysto
My apologies for a late reply (dentist ftl Sad).

If you open the control panel on your pc, after starting a download (and thus installing the Pando daemon), you'll find an icon that will allow configuration of the pando system, such as setting port and limiting upload speeds.


No, No, No and NO!

1) Installing software to someones computer without asking is in many countries a criminal felony. (Actually I think it is in EVERY country). And NO accepting a download IS NOT a legal way to worm yourself out of it. The user needs to be told CLEARLY what is gonna happen and be offered a way to decline it.

2) It is worldwide perceived as "NOT GOOD BEHAVIOUR"

3) What ever your EULA (or Pandos') might say about it, it's still illegal.

4) Even if I did accept this new gimmick of yours, ITS DEFAULT SETTINGS ARE TO HOG EVERY BIT OF DOWN/UP STREAM IT CAN and not to mention opening hundreds of connections (or atleast trying to) It would also be good PR to set the defaults of Pando "daemon" Trojan to say max 100KB/s downstream used, max 10KB/s upstream used (and max 100 or even 50 connections opened) Even better would be to FORCE the user who accepts this "daemon" to configure it when it is installed.

Is CCP sure it wants to see themselves as a Malware spreading company? Yes you read that right, I consider this sort of behaviour as the same what the Malware spreading criminals do.

PS: If you want to see how ppl react to this sort of stealth installation things in general, just google for Starforce copyprotection... I can assure you, it ain't pretty and happy fluffy.

TeaDaze
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2009.05.06 17:34:00 - [51]
 

Never heard of Pando, don't trust 3rd party downloaders and do not want services installed in the background.

To quote - Do not want

Nizdaar
Gallente
Digital Fury Corporation
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2009.05.06 17:50:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: CCP Mephysto
My apologies for a late reply (dentist ftl Sad).

If you open the control panel on your pc, after starting a download (and thus installing the Pando daemon), you'll find an icon that will allow configuration of the pando system, such as setting port and limiting upload speeds.


That is far from user friendly.

What's so hard about publishing .torrent files and letting us choose and use our existing bittorrent clients? The last thing I need is yet another piece of software to configure and keep an eye on.

I still maintain that this is effectively a trojan with the way it's installed and configured by default.

Meiyang Lee
Gallente
Azteca Transportation Unlimited
Gunboat Diplomacy
Posted - 2009.05.06 18:40:00 - [53]
 

Showed no icon after starting a download, so perhaps something to look at?
(It was the full client though, perhaps that's HTML only?)

Otherwise went without a hitch, download speed was quite good. (~480 kbyte/s)

1Of9
Gallente
The Circle
White Noise.
Posted - 2009.05.06 20:18:00 - [54]
 

Another deimon/service running? no thankx!

Why not mirrors? direct download?

maybe .torrent so any1 can use any client at will etc?

just not another deimon ..

1Of9
Gallente
The Circle
White Noise.
Posted - 2009.05.06 21:18:00 - [55]
 

How it should be

direct download.

Mahai Ano
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2009.05.07 08:22:00 - [56]
 

Default settings for this new service are very-very user UNfriendly. It hogs all up/down bandwidth and opens a torrent (no pun intended) of connections. Then there is the issue of it being a whole new service. Big no-no.

First, it sould be set up by default so it is possible to do other things when it's running. Let's say 50%/100k down, 5-10k up max bandwidth usage and max 10-20 connections.

Then make it a standalone, user firendly interface. Taskbar minimalizable, easy changing of bandwidth usage by 3 clicks, the stuff.

Plus make it 2 clicks to disable the p2p aspect, for those without unlimited net.

Then this would be ready to deploy. Right now it is not even nearly ready. It is a nightmare, nothing else.

tx eight
Minmatar
Senex Legio
Get Off My Lawn
Posted - 2009.05.07 09:49:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Mahai Ano


First, it sould be set up by default so it is possible to do other things when it's running. Let's say 50%/100k down, 5-10k up max bandwidth usage and max 10-20 connections.

Then make it a standalone, user firendly interface. Taskbar minimalizable, easy changing of bandwidth usage by 3 clicks, the stuff.

Plus make it 2 clicks to disable the p2p aspect, for those without unlimited net.



This is called standalone bittorrent client.

Xia Kairui
Lone Star Exploration
Posted - 2009.05.07 14:37:00 - [58]
 

I am not adverse to P2P, in fact I seeded the Apocrypha client for roughly two weeks after it was made public, but this thing makes my hair stand up.

Why does it have to be a service/daemon? A service is only needed for things that PERMANENTLY run on your computer. Sorry, I want to have a say when I am broadcasting stuff into teh intarweb.

Then the Pando EULA basically says "after installing we seed what we want with it". They could be seeding a child **** blog using my bandwidth (yeah, I know that the child **** argument is beaten to death). Fact is, they are doing stuff with my connection that I don't have control over. In some countries it is legal to say the "****s did not run concentration camps" so Pando might use my computer to share that, but I'd be in jail if anyone would notice.

Last as a service the program is taking away my CPU time whenever I have the PC active. I can close BitTorrent and that's it, but aparently Pando does not want that or they'd use a client that is NOT a service.

If this ever goes live the service will end up on my firewall and router block lists.
Nothing against P2P, but P2P for a company I don't know anything is a no-no.

Trent Nichols
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2009.05.07 16:31:00 - [59]
 

This Pando thing, doesn't sound like something I want anywhere near my computer.

Did CCP ever explain why they don't just use a a torrent?

Haral Reimo
Posted - 2009.05.07 16:34:00 - [60]
 

Ok, I've checked out the pando website, including all the developer guide stuff. I can see why you'd want to use it, it's pretty easy to implement and above all it's cheap.

However, I can say this categorically - That software is NEVER going anywhere near my computers. If you make it optional, I will avoid it and recommend my corp and alliance avoid it. If you include it in the Eve installer I will cancel my account.

BITS is fine, although it appears to cause problems for some people.
Direct download over http should always be available. No questions.
BitTorrent is ideal for players from countries you don't have CDN partners in, but it ought to be a .torrent file that works in any client, not your own prewrapped client so people can set up port forwarding appropriately.

Pando? No thanks! Please stop wasting development time on this.


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