open All Channels
seplocked Features and Ideas Discussion
blankseplocked Purchasable Skills
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: 1 2 3 4 [5] 6

Author Topic

Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
Posted - 2009.05.06 13:35:00 - [121]
 

Originally by: Trimutius III
You don't need any skills to try different things.

Oh, so true!! Do you know what else is true? You can make an idiot out of yourself when trying something without having any skills. Embarassed

Now, please, cut the BS. I get it more than enough. You do not like the suggestion and I do not care.

Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
Posted - 2009.05.06 13:37:00 - [122]
 

Originally by: steave435
I disagree.

Stay on topic, please. Smile

Trimutius III
Avalon Guards
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2009.05.06 14:09:00 - [123]
 

Originally by: Whitehound
Originally by: Trimutius III
You don't need any skills to try different things.

Oh, so true!! Do you know what else is true? You can make an idiot out of yourself when trying something without having any skills. Embarassed

Now, please, cut the BS. I get it more than enough. You do not like the suggestion and I do not care.


Oh so if u try something and do not succeed then u r and idiot? Don't be perfectionist, u don't need perfect skills to succeed in doing something, average skills is more then enough, average i mean 3-4 lvl. I didn't say "Without having any skills" but doing something "without perfect skill" or even with not really good skills is possible, i runned 4 lvl missions in a such a bad trained Raven that u can't even imagine i think, and u know i had no problems, i just needed to do missions not like others, but my way because my skills was lower then average. First of all u need Brain level 5, which depends only on yourself (not your char), when u have Brain level 5 skills are secondary.

Cut what? I don't care that u don't care. I know that CCP will never do that thing, if u read what they are saying u understand that it's true. But i like arguing, especially when i really can prove something. :)
And yes... You're are a troll and i'm a flooder. Razz

Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
Posted - 2009.05.06 14:42:00 - [124]
 

Originally by: Trimutius III
Oh so if u try something and do not succeed then u r and idiot?

No. When you try something, knowing you do not have any skill and think you can succeed. That is what makes you an idiot. Maybe you believe in luck, but I do not.

EVE is all about variety and you can solve a problem in many ways. You are not forced to solve it in only one way possible. This is what you should have learned from EVE by now. Take all the capacity modules in EVE as an example if you will. There are so many ways to solve cap problems with them. Why should the acquisition of new skills be limited to time only? Time is money, and if I do not always want to spend time on EVE, but instead some money too, then that is just another way of doing it. It is only more variety.

I will not care about the fears you have of what will happen in the future. Neither will CCP care about me or my suggestion. If they add it to EVE then it is likely only because of the variety it adds to how they make money with EVE.

Trimutius III
Avalon Guards
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2009.05.06 15:02:00 - [125]
 

Originally by: Whitehound

No. When you try something, knowing you do not have any skill and think you can succeed. That is what makes you an idiot. Maybe you believe in luck, but I do not.


I don't believe in luck. I said that u need to have some skills to do almost anything, but u don't need that skills at level 5 at all...

Quote:

EVE is all about variety and you can solve a problem in many ways. You are not forced to solve it in only one way possible. This is what you should have learned from EVE by now. Take all the capacity modules in EVE as an example if you will. There are so many ways to solve cap problems with them. Why should the acquisition of new skills be limited to time only? Time is money, and if I do not always want to spend time on EVE, but instead some money too, then that is just another way of doing it. It is only more variety.


Time is money, but NOT vice versa. Money isn't time.

Quote:
I will not care about the fears you have of what will happen in the future. Neither will CCP care about me or my suggestion. If they add it to EVE then it is likely only because of the variety it adds to how they make money with EVE.

CCP isn't making money... They look like idealists... And they are just lucky that so many people liked their idea, and they work not for masses, for me it's obvious that they are attracting people that are not satisfied with other MMOs where money gives u anything u want... That's why auditory of EVE Online is only 250k (or maybe less if u don't count alts which are quite common) If u want try many different things u just buy more accounts, i have 4 accounts for example there is some people that have more then 10 accounts but usually people have 2-4 accounts if they play for more then a year. So it's always something new that i can try on one of the accounts. :) Or sometimes i do something in 2-3 windows at same time, it is interesting experience, but needs good concentration.

Lear Hepburn
Caldari
Ascendant Strategies Inc.
The Transcendent
Posted - 2009.05.06 15:44:00 - [126]
 

The training system is central to Eve. Change the training system and you change the game completely, and the player base changes. Eve currently has a stable and increasing player base which likes the game the way it is and I don't see CCP wanting to jeopardise that.

While you personally may not want to turn up and buy all the skill points you want there will be someone out there who "does and Abramovich" and simply buys their own characters, skills and ships in sufficient quantity to ruin the game. They may or may not succeed in this endeavour, but they will try.

Slightly more darkly, a rival MMO company could do the same thing in order to try to bring down Eve. Again, they may or may not succeed, but why open up the possibility?

Your idea is open to exploit, unbalanced and not in the character of the game.

Tarron Sarek
Gallente
Biotronics Inc.
Initiative Mercenaries
Posted - 2009.05.06 18:09:00 - [127]
 

Originally by: Whitehound
Originally by: Trimutius III
Oh so if u try something and do not succeed then u r and idiot?

No. When you try something, knowing you do not have any skill and think you can succeed. That is what makes you an idiot. Maybe you believe in luck, but I do not.

EVE is all about variety and you can solve a problem in many ways. You are not forced to solve it in only one way possible.
So why is your only solution for lack of success more skillpoints?
Apart from that there is skill and skillpoints.
You should never mix up those two.

Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
Posted - 2009.05.06 18:27:00 - [128]
 

Edited by: Whitehound on 06/05/2009 18:52:27
Originally by: Lear Hepburn
Your idea is open to exploit, unbalanced and not in the character of the game.

People already "exploit" the game by using multiple accounts and by trading time cards. The only thing that limits them is the amount of money they have. Making some skills purchasable will not change their limit. There is also no control over how many accounts someone can have, or over the amount of time cards someone buys. However, the purchase of skills can be controlled very easily and for each character. Some of those who have been using multiple accounts may give up on them and instead choose to buy skills for only a single character, thereby making what you call an exploit controllable for CCP.

It is not my intention to control what people do, but there is an answer for you on what you can gain with it. And it fits the character of the game. See my last response to Trimutius for an explanation.

Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
Posted - 2009.05.06 18:30:00 - [129]
 

Edited by: Whitehound on 06/05/2009 18:30:17
Originally by: Tarron Sarek
So why is your only solution for lack of success more skillpoints?
Apart from that there is skill and skillpoints.
You should never mix up those two.

Is it? I do not think that this is what I have been suggesting, nor does you comment make a lot of sense to me.

ShadowDraqon
The Quantum Company
Independent Faction
Posted - 2009.05.06 18:55:00 - [130]
 

Quoting the OP:
Originally by: Whitehound
To get anywhere in this game does one need at least a half year of skill training - if not a year (i.e. 1 small & 1 medium weapon + specialization + tanking + ship ...). This takes a lot of time, is boring as hell and of course costs money. With the recent changes to character creation - more learning speed but less starting skills - does this experience get stretched even further.
Shall I tell you something?

Patience is a virtue. In EVE, it's a vital one.

Raekek
Posted - 2009.05.06 19:22:00 - [131]
 

Edited by: Raekek on 06/05/2009 19:27:14
Originally by: Whitehound
If you had read and understood my post you would not be writing this. I do not want to be able to buy skills for $1000. Nor would I spend that much money at a time on any computer game!

The argument regarding the clone is a good one. However, one can buy a PLEX, sell it for ISK and then lose all the ISK to a scammer. Where is the safety in there? It is the same problem and all you currently get is a warning that one does not get any money from a free-form contract.



According to your original post, it would be possible to buy at least every skill with a multiplier of maybe up to 5x or 8x. Maybe you wouldn't spend $1000, but if people are willing to spend hundreds on PLEX I have no doubt someone with the $ would be willing to spend just as much.

Originally by: Whitehound
Edited by: Whitehound on 06/05/2009 09:43:35
Frankly, EVE sucks when players with 5 years of experience are lurking right outside high-sec and only to tear every noob apart.


This is a common argument. If a player had the patience to play the game for 5 years, they certainly deserve the right to tear noobs apart, or do anything else they want in this game.

How would 5 yr old players (or any player with 1 yr+ experience) take it, if players could just buy a year (or more) worth of skill points? It would be similar to a situation in which a few corrupt rich guys payed alot of money to replace the Prime Minister/President or senator of a large country. Is that fair?

Lear Hepburn
Caldari
Ascendant Strategies Inc.
The Transcendent
Posted - 2009.05.06 19:40:00 - [132]
 

Originally by: Whitehound

People already "exploit" the game by using multiple accounts and by trading time cards. The only thing that limits them is the amount of money they have. Making some skills purchasable will not change their limit.

Not true. You can purchase as many accounts as you like, it will still take you a good 100+ days to get into a titan, let alone be able to use the stuff that you attach to it. Having multiple accounts allows you to specialise in different areas more quickly, but each area of specialisation still takes the same amount of time.

Quote:
There is also no control over how many accounts someone can have, or over the amount of time cards someone buys. However, the purchase of skills can be controlled very easily and for each character. Some of those who have been using multiple accounts may give up on them and instead choose to buy skills for only a single character, thereby making what you call an exploit controllable for CCP.

What limits would you place on the purchasing of skills apart from price? Any such limit would call for CCP to go one way or the other and either remove SP purchase completely or allow full purchasing of as many SP as you like - look at the calls for increasing the training queue for an example.

Let's take a look at the money though. At the moment accounts cost you 14.95 a month per account (assuming monthly payment), making a total of 29.90 for two specialised accounts up to 58.80 per month for those with 4 specialised accounts. If we consider your option this would halve or even quarter CCPs monthly income by allowing people to buy SP in lumps and add them onto the single character they have. This means that for CCP to break even on this idea they'd have to charge per SP an amount equivalent to 14.95/(average monthly SP gain). Assuming an average 1.495mil SP per month (it's about right with decent skills/implants and it makes the maths easy Smile ) that would cost you 1 per 100,000SP. Since your original complaint was that a half year of skill training is required that means a new character would cost you 89.70 to get to that level, plus any monthly subscription.
Let's assume that CCP allow this. The knock-on effects would, I suspect, be a reduction in new accounts. This would be because people would view that an "entry-level" character would be the one you described in your OP - half a year of training in. The cost of this would be prohibitive to many who play the game and they would be put off by the perceived handicap of starting out with the currently normal amount of starting SP.

Quote:
It is not my intention to control what people do, but there is an answer for you on what you can gain with it. And it fits the character of the game. See my last response to Trimutius for an explanation.

Reading your response to Trimitus I agree - there should be more than one way to do things. I do not believe that this includes buying your way out of your perceived boredom.

You failed to address the (quite serious) issue I brought up of using this for corporate sabotage by CCPs would-be competitors.

Tarron Sarek's comment made plenty of sense: do not think that what you may be lacking in player skill can be made up for with SP. This does seem to be what your OP suggests.

A further issue: buying SP removes the point of attributes, most of the implants and the learning skills.

Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
Posted - 2009.05.06 20:48:00 - [133]
 

Originally by: Raekek
According to your original post, it would be possible to buy at least every skill with a multiplier of maybe up to 5x or 8x. Maybe you wouldn't spend $1000, but if people are willing to spend hundreds on PLEX I have no doubt someone with the $ would be willing to spend just as much.

I am not entirely fixed on my suggestion, but open to anything which of course supports it.

FYI: I am with EVE for only 3 months, but I know that it went through many changes, which many player did not like. So if it is of any help to you - you fit in nicely. Laughing

Raekek
Posted - 2009.05.06 21:13:00 - [134]
 

Edited by: Raekek on 06/05/2009 21:13:32
Originally by: Whitehound
I am not entirely fixed on my suggestion, but open to anything which of course supports it.

FYI: I am with EVE for only 3 months, but I know that it went through many changes, which many player did not like. So if it is of any help to you - you fit in nicely. Laughing


I didn't see many of those changes either, I've seen maybe 4 expansions. I'm just offering my opinion: that this is an awful idea and why I think so. Perhaps you could change your suggestion based on what I said, like decrease the max amount of skill points you can buy, or maybe players could buy a 25% to 100% faster SP gain noob bonus-type thing for a month, etc

Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
Posted - 2009.05.06 21:46:00 - [135]
 

Originally by: Lear Hepburn
What limits would you place on the purchasing of skills apart from price?

Which ones would you like to see? ... My first idea was to limit it by the skills' prerequisites, but that does not help always and may make some skills too easy to acquire and place other skills out of reach.

Because I want it to be usable in combination with the time-based mechanism should one be allowed to buy a new skill only so often. You could not get into a Titan any time soon, but only speed up your current progress. It would be difficult to exploit it and not without spending time as well as money. What do you think?

Trimutius III
Avalon Guards
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2009.05.07 00:15:00 - [136]
 

Originally by: Whitehound

I am not entirely fixed on my suggestion, but open to anything which of course supports it.

FYI: I am with EVE for only 3 months, but I know that it went through many changes, which many player did not like. So if it is of any help to you - you fit in nicely. Laughing

Went through changes, but did not like is not about that at all. U know after each expansion there is some people who say that EVE is dying. But this doesn't mean that it's so. U know it's already is like a joke, people are satisfied with a game just keep complaining somewhy it's a style.

Interesting fact every time when new record of concurent users appeared many people was say something like:

EVE is dying! LOL

Even CCP said like a joke: "And perhaps EVE is dying". Just don't think that they seriously mean it.

It's sometimes connected to lags that are really annoying and everybody means something like "EVE will die in lags"

But u know actually there is always more and more players not even single expansion caused people to leave game. People don't like nerfs and it's normal. But that nerfs are needed for balance. So if people don't like changes that doesn't mean that this changes are bad, people usually just want their cheatmobiles back... :)

And such change will really kill the spirit of the game.

Trimutius III
Avalon Guards
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2009.05.07 00:28:00 - [137]
 

Originally by: Whitehound
Originally by: Lear Hepburn
What limits would you place on the purchasing of skills apart from price?

Which ones would you like to see? ... My first idea was to limit it by the skills' prerequisites, but that does not help always and may make some skills too easy to acquire and place other skills out of reach.

Because I want it to be usable in combination with the time-based mechanism should one be allowed to buy a new skill only so often. You could not get into a Titan any time soon, but only speed up your current progress. It would be difficult to exploit it and not without spending time as well as money. What do you think?


Hmm, and what if u cut 1 day per month it will change nothing and if it is 1 weeks per month for example, then u get really faster learning for your money. And it seems unfair because here what really make sense is contributing time to game, CCP have based their idea on that u must contribute time to play the game... Timefactor is in the center of their idea. I don't know why, but it is so. So maybe in next life but not now... U know even advanced learning caused real anger of old players (there was a time when there was no advanced learnings), and this change will just kill the root of EVE. U know EVE isn't a space game it's just the outside. One of the main things of EVE is skill training system. U know CCP was thinking for years before they decided to implement training queue, though it doesn't change anything, but they didn't want players to set a big queue and go away, and u know training queue isn't that critical and still CCP didn't want to implement it for long time, so i don't think that ur suggestion will succeed.

Tarron Sarek
Gallente
Biotronics Inc.
Initiative Mercenaries
Posted - 2009.05.07 01:32:00 - [138]
 

Originally by: Whitehound
Edited by: Whitehound on 06/05/2009 18:30:17
Originally by: Tarron Sarek
So why is your only solution for lack of success more skillpoints?
Apart from that there is skill and skillpoints.
You should never mix up those two.

Is it? I do not think that this is what I have been suggesting, nor does you comment make a lot of sense to me.
That's probably because you don't even try to understand.

Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
Posted - 2009.05.07 10:06:00 - [139]
 

Edited by: Whitehound on 07/05/2009 10:39:54
Originally by: Tarron Sarek
That's probably because you don't even try to understand.

If you want to have an argument with me, then you first need to pay me 10 mil ISK.

Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
Posted - 2009.05.07 10:39:00 - [140]
 

Edited by: Whitehound on 07/05/2009 10:42:47
Originally by: Trimutius III
Hmm, and what if u cut 1 day per month it will change nothing and if it is 1 weeks per month for example, then u get really faster learning for your money. And it seems unfair ...

It may seem unfair but it is not. It is fair, because you have to pay extra money for it, and if you do not pay then nothing will change for you. You do not want others to train faster than you when you get the same chance as them.

Players, who buy time cards and have more ISK than you, can afford to buy the most expensive implants and are already training faster!

Faster learning then does not matter when it takes 20-25 years for all skills to max. It is why people are playing with 2 or 3 accounts and specialize each character to get as much as possible from EVE. Besides, it is not getting less skills, instead we are now able to lose skills with the T3s, placing an "open end" to those 20-25 years.

ShadowDraqon
The Quantum Company
Independent Faction
Posted - 2009.05.07 11:01:00 - [141]
 

Originally by: Whitehound
Players, who buy time cards and have more ISK than you, can afford to buy the most expensive implants and are already training faster!
Then why haven't you already sold some PLEXes and bought a set of +5's? Or maybe you already did, and still can't sit still.

Again, Patience. If you're gonna play EVE, you'll need it.

Tvaishk Suzuki
Long Night Industries
Black Thorne Alliance
Posted - 2009.05.07 11:09:00 - [142]
 

Edited by: Tvaishk Suzuki on 07/05/2009 11:14:34
Originally by: Whitehound
Edited by: Whitehound on 07/05/2009 10:42:47
Originally by: Trimutius III
Hmm, and what if u cut 1 day per month it will change nothing and if it is 1 weeks per month for example, then u get really faster learning for your money. And it seems unfair ...

It may seem unfair but it is not. It is fair, because you have to pay extra money for it, and if you do not pay then nothing will change for you. You do not want others to train faster than you when you get the same chance as them.

Players, who buy time cards and have more ISK than you, can afford to buy the most expensive implants and are already training faster!




While this is not the hole issue its about balance, if you use GTC's as an example. someone gets more isk from selling them but also someone else now has less isk as well, wheres the balance with buying skills?

If you say its fair because your using RL money to get your skills you really just opening the way to make it a game where the one with the most RL cash will prevail...eg I'm new to eave and just got a pile of faction mods to fit my ships with and I still have the 100 mil in my wallet, but its fair because I just used RL money.

And also where will your idea stop, your complaining about being behind on skill points compared with the older players, but whats going to happen if this is implemented, your now going still have the same complaint just the fact that the base level if skills you'll have will be higher

Leana Darkrider
Minmatar
Creatio -ex- nihilo
The Donkey Rollers
Posted - 2009.05.07 12:19:00 - [143]
 

Originally by: ShadowDraqon
Originally by: Whitehound
Players, who buy time cards and have more ISK than you, can afford to buy the most expensive implants and are already training faster!
Then why haven't you already sold some PLEXes and bought a set of +5's? Or maybe you already did, and still can't sit still.

Again,Patience. If you're gonna play EVE, you'll need it.



I second this.




His DarkShadow
Posted - 2009.05.07 12:21:00 - [144]
 

No No and one more time NO. I play EVE mostly becouse it is the only one MMO where i am not distracted too much from real life. And i do not mind to train them normally, i am too a new person in this game, even newer than you (only like 1.7m sp or so) and i am not complaning, eve ofers alot of choises, i mean even if i am new characker and learn my skills in one direction, i can be better than player with old char who learn different kind of skills and so on so on. And if you have to much money in real life, then go play other mmo where you can spend your money out till the last cent for your uber super duper p00wnz00r char.

And i am not even talking, that such system would produce even more unfair enviroment for players who do not have too much money especially at this eco crisis time.

Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
Posted - 2009.05.07 12:44:00 - [145]
 

Originally by: Tvaishk Suzuki
While this is not the hole issue its about balance, if you use GTC's as an example. someone gets more isk from selling them but also someone else now has less isk as well, wheres the balance with buying skills?

There is no balance in skills now either. They only get more.

Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
Posted - 2009.05.07 12:46:00 - [146]
 

Originally by: His DarkShadow
i am too a new person in this game, even newer than you (only like 1.7m sp or so)

Well, do as other say and have some patience. You will come to the point sooner or later where all you do is to wait for a skill to complete. You will find other things to do while you are waiting, but it may not be in EVE then.

Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
Posted - 2009.05.07 12:49:00 - [147]
 

Originally by: ShadowDraqon
Again, Patience. If you're gonna play EVE, you'll need it.

No. You may need it, but I have no time to for it. I do other things instead as I already pointed out.

Leana Darkrider
Minmatar
Creatio -ex- nihilo
The Donkey Rollers
Posted - 2009.05.07 12:55:00 - [148]
 

Originally by: Whitehound
Originally by: ShadowDraqon
Again, Patience. If you're gonna play EVE, you'll need it.

No. You may need it, but I have no time to for it. I do other things instead as I already pointed out.


You better start accepting these two facts.

- You need patience in EVE, if you can't bring it up, then leave the game.

- CCP will not change This. It isn't their idea of how this game should be played.

His DarkShadow
Posted - 2009.05.07 12:56:00 - [149]
 

Originally by: Whitehound
Originally by: His DarkShadow
i am too a new person in this game, even newer than you (only like 1.7m sp or so)

Well, do as other say and have some patience. You will come to the point sooner or later where all you do is to wait for a skill to complete. You will find other things to do while you are waiting, but it may not be in EVE then.


Right, it would be more beer or Quafe for me.

But really EVE offers alot of occupations, and i doubt that i would ever not have anything to do but to wait skills, unless i would be just as small minded as some ppl may be.

Tvaishk Suzuki
Long Night Industries
Black Thorne Alliance
Posted - 2009.05.07 13:13:00 - [150]
 

Originally by: Whitehound
Originally by: Tvaishk Suzuki
While this is not the hole issue its about balance, if you use GTC's as an example. someone gets more isk from selling them but also someone else now has less isk as well, wheres the balance with buying skills?

There is no balance in skills now either. They only get more.


You put time in that's the balance.

Time is probably the most important part of eve, as everyone else in this tread has been saying patience and planing is the key.


Pages: 1 2 3 4 [5] 6

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only