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Lear Hepburn
Caldari
Ascendant Strategies Inc.
The Transcendent
Posted - 2009.05.05 16:53:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: Whitehound
If you really want to counter my suggestion then give me some good reasons why a high-skilled player would leave EVE and because of the introduction of purchasable skills. This is what I would like to know about.

1. You would devalue the time they have put into Eve. Five or so years invested developing skill programmes to get where they are today will, at the click of a mouse and the swipe of a credit card, mean nothing.
2. People will be able to pay for fully-skilled characters and jump straight into a Titan. This would seriously unbalance gameplay dynamics and remove any semblance of an "endgame" which exists now. Eve would become simple Cap vs Cap battles where whoever has the most RL money wins.

Trimutius III
Avalon Guards
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2009.05.05 16:59:00 - [62]
 

Edited by: Trimutius III on 05/05/2009 17:01:51
Haha... Buying skills? I hate that people... I hate GM shops and everything like that. What next? You'll ask to sell u Estamel modified things for bucks, or X-type (which are same)?

NO, NO and once more NO.

Say thank you to CCP, that they allow at least selling GTC for ISK, and so u don't need to waste time and earn that isk, or u can play and don't ever pay real money. But selling skills/modules/ships etc. for real money never. If u really want that, justb buy several GTC and buy a cool character that is trained already, but this actually will give u nothing, u will have bunch of skills that u can't even use properly.

EVE online is slow paced game, if u don't like slow-paced games then don't spoil fun for all 200k+ people who enjoy the game as it is...

U know i played EVE for 2 years and no problem soon people get used and u know it's really great feeling when "Ohh only 30 days until i get that skill to level 5." and "Ohh at last, this skill is trained."

As i think if CCP will do such REALLY STUPID thing game will change so bad that many old players will just go away because it's totally another game and not what they were paying for all that years...

P.S. EVE Online is hardcore game. And this feature is a part of hardcore.

ShadowDraqon
The Quantum Company
Independent Faction
Posted - 2009.05.05 17:03:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: Lear Hepburn
1. You would devalue the time they have put into Eve. Five or so years invested developing skill programmes to get where they are today will, at the click of a mouse and the swipe of a credit card, mean nothing.
2. People will be able to pay for fully-skilled characters and jump straight into a Titan. This would seriously unbalance gameplay dynamics and remove any semblance of an "endgame" which exists now. Eve would become simple Cap vs Cap battles where whoever has the most RL money wins.

This.

Originally by: Whitehound
You do not know what CCP is going to do. They are trying to get new people into the game, or else they would not have the trial and buddy program.
Yes, by making an MMO that's NOT mainstream, that's different from all the others, where you can't just go "whoop, credit card" and get everything you want in-game.

Originally by: Whitehound
And of course it is for the purpose of making money.
Of course it is. But not by selling out. This would be selling out. And where would it end? With EVE being a glorified WoW clone with spaceships.

Originally by: Whitehound
If you really want to counter my suggestion then give me some good reasons why a high-skilled player would leave EVE and because of the introduction of purchasable skills. This is what I would like to know about.
Refer to top of post.

ShadowDraqon
The Quantum Company
Independent Faction
Posted - 2009.05.05 17:06:00 - [64]
 

Originally by: Trimutius III
EVE Online is a hardcore game

You've essentially made arguing over this, totally moot. Cool 'nuff said.

Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
Posted - 2009.05.05 17:20:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: Lear Hepburn
Anyone using faction fit has more money than sense IMO. Rather like you seem to have Wink

Oh goodness. And you think an insult like yours will convince me of your believes? Tsss ...

Quote:
As an aside, I can't think of a single successful MMO where you can legitimately pay for skill/level increases short of buying a character (if even that is legit), so what makes you think it's a good idea when all those MMO devs don't?

It is a good idea, because it would actually work with EVE's skill system.

You really have two types of skills. One are your own, personal skills from playing the game (i.e. ship handling, tactics, fittings, etc.). The other type of skills are the in-game skills, which are not real skills but just a lot of modifiers.

The reason why it would work for EVE is because your personal skills (as a player) are not connected to the in-game skills. In other MMOs, or other games in general, do you need to have good player skills to skill up your character, or else you will be grinding the same weak monsters over and over again. The small increase in xp points (or whatever you get from it) will only get you so far. In EVE you can suck big time and still get all of the skills.

Would you then make skills purchasable for other MMOs, then, yes, it will certainly interfere with how you progress as a player. In fact if you would buy a character of a high level the NPCs may appear unbeatable, because some games spawn NPCs to match your level. Not so with EVE.

Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
Posted - 2009.05.05 17:26:00 - [66]
 

Originally by: Trimutius III
EVE online is slow paced game, if u don't like slow-paced games then don't spoil fun for all 200k+ people who enjoy the game as it is...

With a peak of at most 50k during the day. The rest is probably waiting for skills to finish.

Public Consultant
Posted - 2009.05.05 17:29:00 - [67]
 

Buy yourself an already trained character in the Character Bazaar. Simple enough.

Yours Truly,
Public Consultant

Lear Hepburn
Caldari
Ascendant Strategies Inc.
The Transcendent
Posted - 2009.05.05 17:29:00 - [68]
 

Edited by: Lear Hepburn on 05/05/2009 17:30:02
Originally by: Whitehound

Oh goodness. And you think an insult like yours will convince me of your believes? Tsss ...

It wasn't an insult, it was a friendly jab. The little winky smiley should have told you that.

Quote:
You really have two types of skills. One are your own, personal skills.....(snip)

I can see how the mechanic itself could work, but the argument is not about whether it could physically be done, but whether it should be done. For some reason you have now switched your argument from one of PvP mechanics in your OP to one of PvE mechanics, so I am a little confused as to where exactly you stand.
If this is about whether skill-buying could work for PvE then it might. I have issues as to whether being able to mission in Tech 2 ships immediately when you have no relative improvment in NPCs would make the game to easy, but it may be a possibility. The problem is that Eve is not a PvE game primarily, and buying skills would change the game enormously as described above.

Basically, if you're too impatient to play Eve the way it's meant to be played then it's probably the wrong game for you. I'm not telling you to leave or trying to hurt your feelings here, I'm merely stating the fact that Eve is a long-term game for those with a mind to the long view, not a short-lived, flash-in-the-pan game where people have all the best stuff it's possible to get within a matter of weeks or even months.

Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
Posted - 2009.05.05 17:38:00 - [69]
 

Edited by: Whitehound on 05/05/2009 17:39:33
Originally by: Lear Hepburn
Basically, if you're too impatient to play Eve the way it's meant to be played then it's probably the wrong game for you. I'm not telling you to leave or trying to hurt your feelings here, ...

You are not doing anything like that. I am open-minded (most of the time ...) and do not expect CCP to pick up an idea as soon as its being posted into this forum. Some folks on this forum, however, seem to believe that this is the case, judging by only their responses. I wish I had an ego as big as theirs, believing CCP would do as *I* say.

Trimutius III
Avalon Guards
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2009.05.05 17:42:00 - [70]
 

Originally by: Whitehound

You do not know what CCP is going to do. They are trying to get new people into the game, or else they would not have the trial and buddy program. And of course it is for the purpose of making money.

If you really want to counter my suggestion then give me some good reasons why a high-skilled player would leave EVE and because of the introduction of purchasable skills. This is what I would like to know about.

I thought a little about it. And as i play almost 2 years i want say:

1)
Quote:

You do not know what CCP is going to do. They are trying to get new people into the game, or else they would not have the trial and buddy program. And of course it is for the purpose of making money.

Yes they are making money. But also, they are making unique game that gathers specific people. Most of my friends that i met in EVE don't really like other MMOGs. As for me all other MMOGs are boring because they don't have any purpose in it. One of purposes for many people is training that skill, this process just keep them ingame, and they pay money to CCP and will pay for years in the future.

Just think CCP can get several millions right now and then lose much more because most of players will be bored of such a game very soon, because nothing changes. and will go away. And CCP will lose much dozens of millions later after years. Just try too look further then near future.

2) Now to the second part:

Quote:

If you really want to counter my suggestion then give me some good reasons why a high-skilled player would leave EVE and because of the introduction of purchasable skills. This is what I would like to know about.


This skill thing make the world dynamical and always changing, if everybody who want will have best skills dynamic will disappear, because u just can't understand role of noobs, first of all it's a big part of EVE Economics, and i should say EVE have the best economics in MMOs, if everybody have best skills it will cause BIG economic collapse, first of all nobody would know how to sell noob things (if u think that they are sold by NPC u are wrong, all that crap i sold to you by other players) Market of EVE is really huge and really based on deference between players, and without noob characters it will die.
U know how many people earn their ISK by selling things too noobs. Don't think that they want to fool noobs, often prices are even low, because there is many traders. Usually it's fair trade, scammers do exist but usually they are scamming not noobs at all (noobs don't have enough ISK for scammers to bother)

U know without skill training game will become boring, because everybody would have the same things. The main difference of EVE is that in Other MMOs characters aren't different at all.

In EVE every character is unique, everybody studies what he wants and that got his unique layout. Training all skill that there is in EVE will take about 25 years, so even 5 year chars can lesser part of everything that possible. :)

And u know everybody is satisfied. And there will come Thousands of riches that bought they will bring boredom, like in Counter Strike every battle will be almost same. Counter Strike may not last for years and years... And EVE with this feauture will payout to CCP for years and years and years and even more.


Kel Nissa
Posted - 2009.05.05 17:44:00 - [71]
 

I actually love such people.

Its quite funny to read their thoughts. Reminds me on a pilot i tried to recruite a year ago. I think he left eve after a week, because he realized that its absolutly impossible to fly a capital within the first month.

Personally i would vote for a test server like singularity where every character has every skill maxed + every module/ship for free. After some days of fun pilots would realize that there would be absolutly no value into playing something like that.

Or should i say it this way: you request a cheat. Yeah its a cheat - not more or less.
But im personally a hardliner and i also dislike the ability to have alts and also the ability to sell GTCs for ISKs in a legal way.

Whenever CCP adds a feature like your proposal i will sell my character and leave eve forever.

ShadowDraqon
The Quantum Company
Independent Faction
Posted - 2009.05.05 17:45:00 - [72]
 

Edited by: ShadowDraqon on 05/05/2009 17:49:42
Originally by: Whitehound
Quote:
As an aside, I can't think of a single successful MMO where you can legitimately pay for skill/level increases short of buying a character (if even that is legit), so what makes you think it's a good idea when all those MMO devs don't?

It is a good idea, because it would actually work with EVE's skill system.

It's like invasive brain surgery. It might work, or you might just kill it dead.
Edit: in this case, you're performing the surgery with a pair of sporks.

Originally by: Whitehound
In other MMOs, or other games in general, do you need to have good player skills to skill up your character
They say eve is a great game because there is no grind required. You might have a lot of experience in grinding, but it's still grinding.

Originally by: Whitehound
In EVE you can suck big time and still get all of the skills.
And you'll still suck big time, whether you waited for them to train or bought them.

Originally by: Whitehound
Would you then make skills purchasable for other MMOs, then, yes, it will certainly interfere with how you progress as a player. In fact if you would buy a character of a high level the NPCs may appear unbeatable, because some games spawn NPCs to match your level. Not so with EVE.
Why is it not so with EVE? If I buy a 100 mil SP character, do I magically gain the knowledge and experience I need to effectively use those 100 mil SP? You, my friend, are tearing down your own arguments.

I know you're trolling, I just feel like verbally sparring with someone.

Trimutius III
Avalon Guards
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2009.05.05 17:57:00 - [73]
 

Edited by: Trimutius III on 05/05/2009 17:57:54
Originally by: Whitehound

With a peak of at most 50k during the day. The rest is probably waiting for skills to finish.

Nope rest are Working/Sleeping. Eve Online is world wide game. People from Asia, Australia, Russia, Europe, America and so on, all are playing game, and now think 250k accounts of people they all aren't playing EVE 23/7. And 20% of people playing is really many people, usually there is only 10% of people but if u think that server online 23 hours a day, then if there is 10% or more of people online at any given moment (not counting 20-30 minutes after downtime when not so many people logged in) then what we get in average is that in average every subscriber plays more then 2 hours a day...

ShadowDraqon
The Quantum Company
Independent Faction
Posted - 2009.05.05 18:03:00 - [74]
 

Edited by: ShadowDraqon on 05/05/2009 18:02:54
Originally by: Whitehound
With a peak of at most 50k during the day. The rest is probably waiting for skills to finish.
Take together statistics for every server in other MMO's, and you'll wind up with somewhat similar numbers.

Another explanation is that EVE players actually have a life Laughing

Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
Posted - 2009.05.05 18:03:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: Trimutius III
Just think CCP can get several millions right now and then lose much more because most of players will be bored of such a game very soon, because nothing changes. and will go away. And CCP will lose much dozens of millions later after years. Just try too look further then near future.

That is just speculation, but certainly a possibility. However, I am not asking to make all skills purchasable and for only a little fee. Still, if CCP would make all skills purchasable you would need to have the money for it, too. Buying all skills to fly a Titan could likely cost as much as buying a small car. I am not asking to do that, but people will find a limit on how much they spend on it.

Quote:
... first of all it's a big part of EVE Economics, and i should say EVE have the best economics in MMOs, if everybody have best skills it will cause BIG economic collapse, ...

If one would have expected a collapse of the economics then it would have been with the introduction of PLEXes, but all that seem to have happened is that the players have given PLEXes a price tag and continue to play EVE.

Quote:
And there will come Thousands of riches that bought they will bring boredom, like in Counter Strike every battle will be almost same. Counter Strike may not last for years and years... And EVE with this feauture will payout to CCP for years and years and years and even more.

I am not sure if Counter Strike is a good example. It is quite popular and has many fans despite the fact that it has this flaw.

Again, I am not asking to make all players equal but to offer an option to cut down on some of it.

Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
Posted - 2009.05.05 18:05:00 - [76]
 

Edited by: Whitehound on 05/05/2009 18:05:47
Originally by: Kel Nissa
Whenever CCP adds a feature like your proposal i will sell my character and leave eve forever.

Oh, I must take back my suggestion!! Laughing

Lear Hepburn
Caldari
Ascendant Strategies Inc.
The Transcendent
Posted - 2009.05.05 18:06:00 - [77]
 

Whitehound, I've given you two reasons why this would not work at the top of page 3 which you are yet to address. I'd appreciate it if you'd do so. Thanks.

Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
Posted - 2009.05.05 18:16:00 - [78]
 

Originally by: ShadowDraqon
And you'll still suck big time, whether you waited for them to train or bought them.

The fact that one will suck big time in anyway does not help. It was an example to show how the skill systems differ. It is not an argument for having purchasable skills.

Let us avoid quoting every sentence, ok? Smile

ShadowDraqon
The Quantum Company
Independent Faction
Posted - 2009.05.05 18:30:00 - [79]
 

Edited by: ShadowDraqon on 05/05/2009 18:30:50
Originally by: Whitehound
Originally by: ShadowDraqon
And you'll still suck big time, whether you waited for them to train or bought them.

The fact that one will suck big time in anyway does not help. It was an example to show how the skill systems differ. It is not an argument for having purchasable skills.
Actually this supports that if you could just buy the skills needed to pilot for example an interceptor, right on your first day, It would likely end this way:

1. nub gets inty, buys the skills.
2. Nub gets pwn'd within 10 seconds of his first engagement.
3. Nub decides that this sucks, because even if he had a "leet" ship, he still got buttpwn'd, and leaves the game.

Is not good.

Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
Posted - 2009.05.05 18:31:00 - [80]
 

Edited by: Whitehound on 05/05/2009 18:31:14
Originally by: Lear Hepburn
1. You would devalue the time they have put into Eve. Five or so years invested developing skill programmes to get where they are today will, at the click of a mouse and the swipe of a credit card, mean nothing.

No, I disagree. Purchasable characters are already placing a tag on the time spend by people. It is therefore nothing new or revolutionary. I also do not see why the older players would feel their time being devalued. The time they invested into EVE will have a value for them regardless of what others do.
Quote:
2. People will be able to pay for fully-skilled characters and jump straight into a Titan. This would seriously unbalance gameplay dynamics and remove any semblance of an "endgame" which exists now. Eve would become simple Cap vs Cap battles where whoever has the most RL money wins.

That is not what I want. I suggest to limit what can be bought. This is currently not the case for purchasable characters and is not part of my idea.

I do not think that one should be able to buy invincibility with cash. Anyone who thinks so deserve to get popped and EVE's game mechanics would still allow for it.

Happy?

Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
Posted - 2009.05.05 18:44:00 - [81]
 

Edited by: Whitehound on 05/05/2009 18:44:03
Originally by: ShadowDraqon
... It would likely end this way:
...
Is not good.

I do not see what this has got to do with purchasable skills. It is what happens every day! The noobs are using rookie ships. The many wrecks in front of the starter stations are proof to this, but I do not think it will change.

Tarron Sarek
Gallente
Biotronics Inc.
Initiative Mercenaries
Posted - 2009.05.05 18:52:00 - [82]
 

Originally by: Whitehound
If you are saying that it sucked for you, too, (..)
No, it didn't suck for me.
I actually just like to play the game. Race for SPs is silly.

Apart from that, please define "to get anywhere" in EVE.

- ISK?
1 billion ISK in your first month is possible.
- Kills?
Kills in your first weeks of playing are possible.
- Sovereignty?
Erm, I hope you don't mean this..
...
- Winning 1vs1 fight against and old PvP character?
Ok, show me the MMO where this is possible without some time and effort.

Trimutius III
Avalon Guards
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2009.05.05 18:57:00 - [83]
 

Edited by: Trimutius III on 05/05/2009 19:00:41
Originally by: Whitehound

If one would have expected a collapse of the economics then it would have been with the introduction of PLEXes, but all that seem to have happened is that the players have given PLEXes a price tag and continue to play EVE.


LOL What?
No PLEX haven't changed anything, GTC was traded for years and it is still possible to sell GTC for ISK via official site (in "My Account") directly without converting it to PLEXes. So PLEXes have just made it a little bit more comfortable. GTC was sold for ISK almost always, and it was done legaly, so PLEXes didn't changed anything, such trading always excited.

Originally by: Whitehound

That is just speculation, but certainly a possibility. However, I am not asking to make all skills purchasable and for only a little fee. Still, if CCP would make all skills purchasable you would need to have the money for it, too. Buying all skills to fly a Titan could likely cost as much as buying a small car. I am not asking to do that, but people will find a limit on how much they spend on it.

I am not sure if Counter Strike is a good example. It is quite popular and has many fans despite the fact that it has this flaw.

Again, I am not asking to make all players equal but to offer an option to cut down on some of it.

Yes Counter Strike Isn't good example, i just wanted to say that in counter strike u just come in play for several hours and go away, and in EVE some operations take years (esspecially espionage operations)

If u want just cut some conners it's isn't that hard. Many people are earning isk by training "default" characters and selling them for isk, u may just buy some PLEXes and then buy a character from someone that will cost an amount of ISK. maybe it will cost u something like $200 or more if u want really trained character, but no problem...

Just try to look here.
It costs $20 to transfer a character, and an some ISK, Character will be simply tranfered from account of seller to account of buyer, and CCP grants that ISK and Character are transfered. Just don't hurry to transfer ISK before u talked about deal with seller (or nobody grants anything if u don't even have logs and proof that there was a deal) if seller scammed u after he really said that he will transfer his char at least u will get ur ISK back if u'll prove to CCP that there was a deal (it's not hard to prove it if u have proof of deal in forum thread (ur bid isn't a proof, answer of seller to ur bid is a proof) or chat logs) It was just an advice, not to get scammed.

Fille Balle
Ballbreakers R us
Posted - 2009.05.05 18:59:00 - [84]
 

Hm... well, funny as it may sound, I wouldn't mind if you where able to buy sp. Specially not if it's limited to skills with 3 prereq's or less. It would just be a way for new player to get ahead, and they could choose the skills that they wanted.

What I think is wrong, is the founder of "Red Overlord" purchased and sold GTC's for one trillion isk. All legit as well. Fair enough, CCP allows the reselling of GTC's for isk, as long as the GTC's are bought from legit sources. But I think this is far more game breaking than buying a few basic skills to lvl5.

Besides, it would also help to eliminate the character trade, which is probably being exploited by isk sellers. This way CCP would get more money, which I think is far better than some "alledged" organized crime organization (not me saying this, imo is just some por sod trying to make a living. not saying I support it, 'cause there are other ways that guy can make a living) getting the money.

The current problem with character trade is that you can't choose the skills that you want. Most of the characters available are Caldari missile spammers, and I don't blame anybody for not wanting those characters.

I personally wouldn't buy any skills. Not because I wouldn't be able to afford it, but because this would ruin part of the fun for me. Same way I don't buy and sell gtc's. Lot's of people don't, and wouldn't.

Either way, I support this.

Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
Posted - 2009.05.05 19:06:00 - [85]
 

Originally by: Tarron Sarek
Apart from that, please define "to get anywhere" in EVE.

To get back into the game.

ShadowDraqon
The Quantum Company
Independent Faction
Posted - 2009.05.05 19:11:00 - [86]
 

Originally by: Whitehound
Edited by: Whitehound on 05/05/2009 18:44:03
Originally by: ShadowDraqon
... It would likely end this way:
...
Is not good.

I do not see what this has got to do with purchasable skills. It is what happens every day! The noobs are using rookie ships. The many wrecks in front of the starter stations are proof to this, but I do not think it will change.

Yes, the noobs are using rookie ships, and haven't invested some extra 60$ for skills and a ship, only 2 gigs of download.
And rookie ship wrecks outside stations? ... in HI-sec? Doesn't count if the buttpwning was done by CONCORD. Rolling Eyes

Trimutius III
Avalon Guards
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2009.05.05 19:16:00 - [87]
 

Originally by: Fille Balle
What I think is wrong, is the founder of "Red Overlord" purchased and sold GTC's for one trillion isk. All legit as well. Fair enough, CCP allows the reselling of GTC's for isk, as long as the GTC's are bought from legit sources. But I think this is far more game breaking than buying a few basic skills to lvl5.


Some basic skills are trained to lvl 5 for first 1-2 monthes and really fast it takes only 1-2 week for every basic skill. (for many skills lvl 4 is quite enough) But there was said something about "skills for Interceptor" as i remember, and i can't understand how i lived for almost a year even WITHOUT Evasive Maneuvering trained to lvl 5, and i feeled well.

I don't see problem with selling GTC. But still i know some people buys GTC for ISK just because they can't or don't want to pay real money at all. And i rarely buy sell GTC. Though i often buying and reselling GTC in Jita, trading on spread is not bad 3% of profit.

Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
Posted - 2009.05.05 19:25:00 - [88]
 

Originally by: Trimutius III
Some basic skills are trained to lvl 5 for first 1-2 monthes and really fast it takes only 1-2 week for every basic skill.

I do not think that this is the case any more after Apocrypha, but I have not take a full look at it. The way it is meant now is to have more freedom of choice. One gets less starting skills but instead a faster SP training rate. However, many will likely use the first 1.6m SP to only train learning skills, so they will be flying around with possibly worse skills during their first time in EVE.

Raekek
Posted - 2009.05.05 19:32:00 - [89]
 

No.

Some players have spent 5+ years training and have gotten over 100 mil SP. Some rich noob could spend like $1000 for 100 mil skill points instantly, which isn't fair at all. It's also hard to imagine a noob with a substantial amount SP, he probably wouldn't even buy (or could afford) a clone & get podded anyway

Trimutius III
Avalon Guards
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2009.05.05 19:38:00 - [90]
 

Edited by: Trimutius III on 05/05/2009 19:39:01
Originally by: Whitehound
Originally by: Trimutius III
Some basic skills are trained to lvl 5 for first 1-2 monthes and really fast it takes only 1-2 week for every basic skill.

I do not think that this is the case any more after Apocrypha, but I have not take a full look at it. The way it is meant now is to have more freedom of choice. One gets less starting skills but instead a faster SP training rate. However, many will likely use the first 1.6m SP to only train learning skills, so they will be flying around with possibly worse skills during their first time in EVE.

No... it's still a case

Befor Apocrypha u've got 800k SP and most of them u didn't need in the beginning somehow, skill layouts was really useless sometimes. And now u get 50k and 100% bonus until 1.6 mill. So after 2-3 weeks there is no difference in SP between preapocrypha and now... And in Apocrypha u can use up this advantage for skills that u really need. And noobs usually don't have money to buy Advanced learnings in the begining so training learnings for them continues a little bit later, and they can train some skills they really need to do 1 lvl mission or hunt in high-secs... Something like that... PVP in the begining is possible, just dont think about 1vs1 PVP it's almost always unfair, even for old players if somebody wants to fight u 1vs1 then he usually stronger then u (have a ship that is designed to kill ships that u're currently flying) fair duels are rare, be ready that EVE is game where PVP is usually killing a pray or gang on gang PVP, or Big Battles with several encounters at the same time and several hundreds of people participating (such a big battles happen often, especially in 0.0 secs that could be claimed)


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