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blankseplocked Constant problem of pirates in empire
 
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Desiree Cousteau
Posted - 2009.04.19 15:39:00 - [1]
 

i have read a few threads on pirates in empire, and the fact they have an unfair advantage.. The funny thing is Concord is supposed to protect the honest player from the average game grieffer, however can flippers have found a way around this... it has even got to the point mining in empire is almost impossible these days as a gang of can flippers allways show up, with the intent of killing your hulk and your mining buddies. Even intruding on missions is something that has not happen'd to me yet but i can see that spreading accross the regions aswell..

I see this as a game exploit personally.. however ccp could counter this with a "distress call" button that say someone flips your can, and aggress's you if you can defend yourself fine, tho if u can't u can request concord intervention, depending on the system sec status will depend on the length of time concord show up.. imo it should help balance the issue...

Urlacher
Posted - 2009.04.19 15:55:00 - [2]
 

Originally by: Desiree Cousteau
The funny thing is Concord is supposed to protect the honest player from the average game grieffer,




No its not, it is ment to punish a player after commiting a criminal act, not protect a player from such action.

Hariya
Posted - 2009.04.19 16:03:00 - [3]
 

I lost you at the second word of the title.... Rolling Eyes

Lady Spank
Amarr
In Praise Of Shadows
Posted - 2009.04.19 16:04:00 - [4]
 

Try learning to look after yourself and not expecting concord to do the work for you.

Desiree Cousteau
Posted - 2009.04.19 16:10:00 - [5]
 

and the difference is??, the threat of Concord is a deterance from committing a criminal act in the first place, so in essence players are protected? if u open fire on an innocent player in empire, concord shows up and blasts u out of the sky. but if the pirate flips your can then opens fire the this is allowed? this is wrong? infact this is an exploit is it not?

Desiree Cousteau
Posted - 2009.04.19 16:17:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Lady Spank
Try learning to look after yourself and not expecting concord to do the work for you.


actually, it is not a problem for me personally, im a 2003 char. but it is for the new to eve players in my corp, that enjoy mining. it has got to the point some have left eve altogether because of this, they don't have the sp's to defend themselves.. atleast my solution makes it fair for both sides, if it took time for concord to show up, gives the pirate time to escape.. this is why this topic is in the features and ideas section...

cyno here
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
Posted - 2009.04.19 16:17:00 - [7]
 

Because stealing is not criminal act (police don't care) but they let you fight back a flipper.
Also jettison cans were NOT ment for mining, for that you got secure cans + hauler.

Lear Hepburn
Caldari
Ascendant Strategies Inc.
The Transcendent
Posted - 2009.04.19 16:17:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Desiree Cousteau
and the difference is??, the threat of Concord is a deterance from committing a criminal act in the first place, so in essence players are protected? if u open fire on an innocent player in empire, concord shows up and blasts u out of the sky. but if the pirate flips your can then opens fire the this is allowed? this is wrong? infact this is an exploit is it not?

No, it is not. Concord reacts to life-threatening crime, but you have the option to react to can-flipping etc.

As to can-flipping, what on earth makes you think that a can in space should be made secure by anyone other than yourself? What right do you have for Concord protection of stuff you throw out in a jetcan? Take some responsibility!

Desiree Cousteau
Posted - 2009.04.19 16:38:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Lear Hepburn
Originally by: Desiree Cousteau
and the difference is??, the threat of Concord is a deterance from committing a criminal act in the first place, so in essence players are protected? if u open fire on an innocent player in empire, concord shows up and blasts u out of the sky. but if the pirate flips your can then opens fire the this is allowed? this is wrong? infact this is an exploit is it not?

No, it is not. Concord reacts to life-threatening crime, but you have the option to react to can-flipping etc.

As to can-flipping, what on earth makes you think that a can in space should be made secure by anyone other than yourself? What right do you have for Concord protection of stuff you throw out in a jetcan? Take some responsibility!


you have not read the post correctly.. it is not stealing that is the issue, stealing is fine.. but the problem is that a griefer flips your can with only interest of pvp confrontation. and thats the issue, if the pirate tuns up in a hac with the only purpose of destroying your mining ship the this is the issue that needs addressing.. if it was in lowsec or 0.0 then fine, but Not in empire..

Lear Hepburn
Caldari
Ascendant Strategies Inc.
The Transcendent
Posted - 2009.04.19 16:57:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Lear Hepburn on 19/04/2009 17:00:47
Originally by: Desiree Cousteau
you have not read the post correctly.. it is not stealing that is the issue, stealing is fine.. but the problem is that a griefer flips your can with only interest of pvp confrontation. and thats the issue, if the pirate tuns up in a hac with the only purpose of destroying your mining ship the this is the issue that needs addressing.. if it was in lowsec or 0.0 then fine, but Not in empire..

If I understand the mechanic correctly you have to shoot the flipper in order for him to be able to shoot you, or you need to steal what has become "his" stuff. You can legally shoot him if he flips your can (i.e. without Concord involvement). If that is the case, the solution is very simple: don't shoot the can flipper, and leave the stuff to him until you can get backup.

Alternatively you can pre-empt this by using GSCs.

Johli
Caldari
Thundercats
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2009.04.19 17:08:00 - [11]
 

I too, would like a private police force.

Neo Omni
Gallente
Posted - 2009.04.19 18:30:00 - [12]
 

It is an exploit and it does give pirates an unfair advantage. Theft should be dealt with by concord. They are the police force.

As for all the negative comments....ignore them, they are the pirates themselves.

cyno here
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
Posted - 2009.04.19 18:32:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Neo Omni
It is an exploit and it does give pirates an unfair advantage. Theft should be dealt with by concord. They are the police force.

As for all the negative comments....ignore them, they are the pirates themselves.
Or people who actualy know something about the game, at least enought to be able to read "Jettison can" and understand that it doesnt say "Put your ore here".

Neo Omni
Gallente
Posted - 2009.04.19 18:43:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: cyno here
Originally by: Neo Omni
It is an exploit and it does give pirates an unfair advantage. Theft should be dealt with by concord. They are the police force.

As for all the negative comments....ignore them, they are the pirates themselves.
Or people who actualy know something about the game, at least enought to be able to read "Jettison can" and understand that it doesnt say "Put your ore here".


Then WTF are cans for if you cant put your crap in them?

Hariya
Posted - 2009.04.19 18:46:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Neo Omni
As for all the negative comments....ignore them, they are the pirates themselves.


In case you did not realize, pirates are one of the major and most respected occupations in Eve. Eve is not supposed to be Hello Kitty Online. Eve is 100% PVP game. If you can't handle it, go back to WOW or subscribe to the Hello Kitty Online.

cyno here
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
Posted - 2009.04.19 18:49:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Neo Omni
Originally by: cyno here
Originally by: Neo Omni
It is an exploit and it does give pirates an unfair advantage. Theft should be dealt with by concord. They are the police force.

As for all the negative comments....ignore them, they are the pirates themselves.
Or people who actualy know something about the game, at least enought to be able to read "Jettison can" and understand that it doesnt say "Put your ore here".


Then WTF are cans for if you cant put your crap in them?
I will take wildguess what jettison can may be for... maybe throwing stuff you no longer need from your ship while in space ?

Neo Omni
Gallente
Posted - 2009.04.19 18:53:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: cyno here
Originally by: Neo Omni
Originally by: cyno here
Originally by: Neo Omni
It is an exploit and it does give pirates an unfair advantage. Theft should be dealt with by concord. They are the police force.

As for all the negative comments....ignore them, they are the pirates themselves.
Or people who actualy know something about the game, at least enought to be able to read "Jettison can" and understand that it doesnt say "Put your ore here".


Then WTF are cans for if you cant put your crap in them?
I will take wildguess what jettison can may be for... maybe throwing stuff you no longer need from your ship while in space ?


so for you, jettison = throw out trash
for a miner, jettison = hauler, pick up and deliver

neither one is wrong really

cyno here
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
Posted - 2009.04.19 18:55:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Neo Omni
Originally by: cyno here
Originally by: Neo Omni

Then WTF are cans for if you cant put your crap in them?
I will take wildguess what jettison can may be for... maybe throwing stuff you no longer need from your ship while in space ?


so for you, jettison = throw out trash
for a miner, jettison = hauler, pick up and deliver

neither one is wrong really
Webster is on my side
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/jettison

Kumq uat
Posted - 2009.04.19 18:59:00 - [19]
 

Hate to burst your bubble my carebear friend but the developers of Eve have stated previously that they never intended for jettison cans to be mined into. This is why there are Secure containers with passwords and stuff. Jet cans come with less hassles and hold more space but they are insecure. It used to be someone with a hauler could drop by your mining op and grab the can and you couldn't do a thing about it. CCP changed it so you could then shoot them and recover your ore and the pirates adapted.

Of course now you can mine directly into an Orca which is like a monstrous secure container that gives mining bonuses. They really don't even cost all that much. If you want to mine solo then you risk the consequences of said actions by putting your stuff into an unsecured container. Stop your whining and adapt like pirates have had to.

Lear Hepburn
Caldari
Ascendant Strategies Inc.
The Transcendent
Posted - 2009.04.19 19:13:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Neo Omni
It is an exploit and it does give pirates an unfair advantage. Theft should be dealt with by concord. They are the police force.

As for all the negative comments....ignore them, they are the pirates themselves.

It is not an exploit. It does not give pirates an unfair advantage. Theft is not the jursidition of concord, it is the juristiction of protection of one's own proerty.

I am not a pirate.

As a positive comment, why should a miner be able to completely mine out a belt in absolute safety, leaving the ore in unsecured cans, then go and get his hauler to take them back to the station? Where's the risk there?

Tuscanspeed
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2009.04.19 19:46:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: cyno here
I will take wildguess what jettison can may be for... maybe throwing stuff you no longer need from your ship while in space ?



If that's all they were meant for, I don't suppose you'd need to be able to access that can again. Why isn't it immediately destroyed?

It would be logical to conclude since they persist in space for so long, and you have easy access to and from the container that it was meant for storage for short periods. Regardless of what that storage is.


Easy fix? If PlayerA steals from PlayerB. PlayerB has aggression against PlayerA. So therefore, if PlayerA jettisons ANYTHING, it's fair game to PlayerB without giving aggression rights while in highsec areas.

Therefore allowing you to take back whatever he decides to drop out, risk free. If he decides to do so. If he doesn't. You can ignore him, or turn his ship into a wreck, your choice. Same as it is now.

Did I miss an unintended consequence other than simply removing the canflip trick?

I guess cans can be default named after the ship/pilot/corp that dropped it, thus eliminating confusion. Won't change the trick, but at least you'd have to be even more of a dumbass than you do now to fall for it.

cyno here
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
Posted - 2009.04.19 19:54:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Tuscanspeed
Originally by: cyno here
I will take wildguess what jettison can may be for... maybe throwing stuff you no longer need from your ship while in space ?



If that's all they were meant for, I don't suppose you'd need to be able to access that can again. Why isn't it immediately destroyed?

It would be logical to conclude since they persist in space for so long
For the same reson why you can't just "destroy" stuff instead jettisoning it - potentinal loot denial. And i wouldnt call 1hour "so long".
Also you can reaccess and throw more crap in them to prevent someone spawning 34875834853 jetcans (you can only throw out one every 3 minutes or so), but if you've forgot to jettison something, you can simply transfer it to the can.

Dr Prometheus
Caldari
Gears of Construction
Posted - 2009.04.19 20:04:00 - [23]
 

Easy solution; dont shoot the flipper, and use the holy grail of cans: The Orca. Laughing
"Concord: To punish and not protect."

Nova Fox
Gallente
Novafox Shipyards
Posted - 2009.04.19 20:22:00 - [24]
 

Theres a problem? I dont see a problem.

Walton Kildare
Caldari
Celestial Horizon Corp.
Self Destruct.
Posted - 2009.04.19 20:44:00 - [25]
 

I wonder if people haven't misunderstood our good "carebear" friend here. I don't think s/he has a problem with pirates and thievery in general. I believe her problem is with griefers who abuse the mechanic to simply gain the ability to destroy a player's ship, without consideration for what the ship may have or may be doing.
Let's remember that "griefer" and "pirate" are not synonymous. A pirate does what he does for money, for profit. A griefer does what he does simply to make someone's experience miserable. The pirate's out to make money at your expense, and the griefer is simply out to ruin your day.

So here's my understanding of the gripe, and my opinion of it. Person A is mining, Person B comes up and steals from them (aggression flagging to A). Person A fires back (aggression flagging to person B). Battle ensues. There are four basic outcomes: Person A is destroyed, Person A runs, Person B is destroyed, or Person B escapes (runs).
- Person B can-flips person A, and destroys them in the ensuing battle (or Person A retreats), then the pirate act was a success.
- Person B can-flips person A, then leaves with their stuff, the pirate act was a success.
- Person B can-flips person A, and is destroyed or has to retreat in the process, obviously the act of piracy was a failure.
Here's another outcome I've seen...
- Person B can-flips Person A, and is destroyed (or retreats) in response. Person B then goes back and grabs a bigger ship, comes back and destroys Person A in response. This is the scenario I have a problem with. If I try and steal from someone on the street, and get beat back because they have a steel pipe, I don't get to leave and go grab an iron baseball bat and beat them back up in response. Maybe if I wanted my theft attempt to be a success, I should have taken the baseball bat to begin with? Make sense?
The solution: If you break off combat with someone, that is, if you leave the area (go to warp), then combat ends. No going back to get a bigger ship. If you want to kill someone, you should bring the hardware to do it then and there. And you'll have no right to be disappointed if your prey is too smart to attack a more powerful ship. If you get killed because you underestimated your prey, too bad.


Justin

Ruze Ahkor'Murkon
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
Posted - 2009.04.19 21:00:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Neo Omni
It is an exploit and it does give pirates an unfair advantage. Theft should be dealt with by concord. They are the police force.

As for all the negative comments....ignore them, they are the pirates themselves.


Exactly. Anyone who suggests that you may be mistaken on how EvE actually works, is obviously a pirate.

This reason, of course, makes you no better than the individuals who accuse any hisec occupant of being a carebear. I know that for some, it's okay to be racist if you can prove others were racist first, but for the rest of us, your just as bad as the people who you hate.




All that said, take note that anything you jet from your cargo hold, no longer belongs to you. This is a VERY important rule, and probably the center of your misunderstanding. The rules for aggression further muck this up, but there it is.

Secondly, CONCORD punishes, not protects. This is a find distinction, which fully explains the difference between CONCORD, and real life police. They are not the same. CONCORD will not swoop in to protect your goods, nor will they come to your aid. They don't rep you, they don't boost your shields, they don't give you cap. They come for one purpose: to destroy the aggressor. CONCORD is not there to make sure you don't die, get stolen from, or suffer. They are there to make sure the aggressor is punished.

In the end, you are still responsible for protecting YOURSELF.



Suggestions?

- Hire a new player with an industrial to ferry your minerals back to station.
- Use a secure can, which you can thus lock.
- Use an industrial, or a ship with a larger cargo hold. Nobody said that you should be able to mine without making multiple trips.

Ruze Ahkor'Murkon
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
Posted - 2009.04.19 21:03:00 - [27]
 

By the way, the one true solution, I feel, is to remove all aggression rights from jet cans. If you jettison it, it's free game. Whether someone else takes it from you and puts it in their own jet can? No difference, still fair game.

This wouldn't stop people from taking your stuff (theft, only without the legalities), but would stop them from using it as a gank tactic.

Desiree Cousteau
Posted - 2009.04.20 00:41:00 - [28]
 

glad that some of you got the point lol, yes pirating is not the problem. it is griefing as a result of flipping your can.. a common gang gank tactic is , 3 man griefer fleet target a mining op. 1 fleet member goes in, (in a cheap frigate) flips the miner can, the miner either a) moves the ore back, or b) attacks the flipper with drones,, either way causes counter aggression, gank buddies warp in and take out all the hulks in ewar hacs.. (btw we do usually mine into a orca during corp ops now, just miners when the orca pilot is offline use the old jetcan, which in my Opinion should be 100% safe to do in high security space)

by the way the term "jettison" in the space sence of the word, would mean cast overboard, ie jettison fuel, Jettison waste.. whichever synome of the word, it does not mean to "Disown" (im tire :-(

Irn Bruce
Posted - 2009.04.20 00:55:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Desiree Cousteau
glad that some of you got the point lol, yes pirating is not the problem. it is griefing as a result of flipping your can.. a common gang gank tactic is , 3 man griefer fleet target a mining op. 1 fleet member goes in, (in a cheap frigate) flips the miner can, the miner either a) moves the ore back, or b) attacks the flipper with drones,, either way causes counter aggression, gank buddies warp in and take out all the hulks in ewar hacs.. (btw we do usually mine into a orca during corp ops now, just miners when the orca pilot is offline use the old jetcan, which in my Opinion should be 100% safe to do in high security space)

by the way the term "jettison" in the space sence of the word, would mean cast overboard, ie jettison fuel, Jettison waste.. whichever synome of the word, it does not mean to "Disown" (im tire :-(


The flippers buddies can NOT, attack you if all you do is shoot the player who stole from your can. The only time his friends can shoot is if you steal back. And even then, they can ONLY attack the individual ship that stole back, they can NOT attack the rest of your little mining op.

The real problem here is miners not knowing the game mechanics, and not knowing how to deal with such a situation within them.

Desiree Cousteau
Posted - 2009.04.20 01:17:00 - [30]
 

yes some of that is true, miner's do not 100% understand the game mechanics, which should be made clearer. however the point i was making is escalation when an incident with a flipper arrises, and all parties get involved with defending a mining op lets say, then eventually they all become targets.. and yes usually when the first guy has flipped he goes and gets a bigger ship, comes back and joins his corp buddies in killing the hulk fleet, the only way out of this is writing off the ore stolen. and not reacting to the initial theft, but usually the guy mining gets annoyed and sets drones on the flipper as a principle to the theft..

whichever way i think ccp need to rethink some of the basic mining concepts as it is the only part of the game to remain unchanged since genesis release, all asteroid belts should be hidden, should be immence, and miners should have deployable equipment and mega huge secure containers to fill, which are easy to anchor/unanchor. and anchorable turrets (like pos turrets) to take out pirates/grifers if need be.. i could go on but im off subject now :-(


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