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Sep'Shoni
Gallente
Carpe Diem inc.
Posted - 2009.04.19 02:26:00 - [1]
 

I have neither interest in nor skills for PVP (if I wanted to shoot people and blow stuff up I'd play Team Fortress II with my teenagers), and we are suddenly at war.

If Eve were really like real life the first priority of the fighting characters would be the protection of the helpless civilian characters. However in Eve guarding me for hours while I mine or move items in a 57 jump round trip with stops in 5 hubs is pretty much the last thing the PVP players want to do.

So, how does an industrial character -- marked with a flashing, neon sign that says, "Soft Target!" -- survive an alliance war without losing tons of isk in expensive ships (and implants), destroyed and tons more isk in mining not done and products not moved to market/destroyed on the way to market?

Mission deadspace mining, check.

Other tips?

Thanks.

Suiki Brindle
Posted - 2009.04.19 02:33:00 - [2]
 

Whine less, mine more.

Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2009.04.19 02:42:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 19/04/2009 02:43:12
Firstly, always watch local. You'll see WTs appear in the local list.

Secondly, if you're about to get popped, select a celestial object (Actually click on it) and spam the **** out of the "warp to" button in the top right. If you do it correctly, you will instantly warp upon your ship popping and they wont have a chance to get your pod.

If you follow the above to, you should normally be able to get back to station in time.


To avoid runins altogether, move. Find a quiet area a fair ways away and mine there. If they can't roam around your home systems and find you, you're probably fine. However, DO still watch local...they can still find you via the wonders of RandomChance™ and locator agents. Picking a quiet, out-of-the-main-pipeline system as your mining grounds will help with the former, and being enough jumps out that they don't want to bother will help with the latter.

If you need to haul (like ore in large quantities), get an alt or a corpmate to scout ahead for you. Or, use a t2 transport. Blockade runners are uncatchable period with the covops cloak, and you can set a deep space transport up for the cloak + MWD trick (But you need to be able to overheat)


Your corp can even do mining ops if you're confident in the location...although obviously not if there's a spy in your corp.

Dreamwalker
Missions Mining and Mayhem
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2009.04.19 03:11:00 - [4]
 

If it is a really bad war, go to the other side of empire and mine or rat or whatever. If they follow you out then jump clone back to the other side of empire. If they are big and can cover all 4 high sec empire factions then go into low sec or 0.0

I have used low sec pirates to my advantage by getting corps to follow me into pirate camped systems. If you don't wish to pvp find a way to get others to pvp for you.

Ancallan
Petals of Derketo
Posted - 2009.04.19 03:13:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Sep'Shoni
Other tips?



Exploration's Gravimetric sites are also very nice, provided you're able to deal with any rats that show up.

While mining in either Gravimetric or Mission space, you're relatively safe. All that you'll need to do is open up your directional scanner, set it to 360 degrees, make sure it's at max distance, uncheck "Use Active Overview Settings", scan, then sort the results by type.

What you're looking for here are any sorts of probes. Most commonly, just Combat Probes. If in Exploration, Core Probes can be used to find you as well. Just keep yourself aware of any Combat Probes, Core Probes, and Sisters Probes and you'll be able to avoid any losses.

Sep'Shoni
Gallente
Carpe Diem inc.
Posted - 2009.04.19 03:47:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Suiki Brindle
Whine less, mine more.


I'm not whining.

While I think that killing helpless industrials has all the moral uprightness of clubbing baby seals and all the combat honor of shooting fish in a barrel, I accept that the Eve community wants people to be able to club baby seals and shoot fish in barrels.

I am simply asking other industrials for advice about tactics for surviving until the alliance's PVP players (using the ammo, ships, guns, and other supplies that I'll be providing at a substantial discount from market prices), deal the with enemy.

Brock Nelson
Posted - 2009.04.19 03:56:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Sep'Shoni
I accept that the Eve community wants people to be able to club baby seals and shoot fish in barrels.


No I don't, I'm Canadian and I want to club baby seals...

Shatner19
Posted - 2009.04.19 04:04:00 - [8]
 

stations games. market trading. or just wait out the war.

if your really desperate to sell your wares you can always make courier contracts.

Patri Andari
Caldari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
Posted - 2009.04.19 05:56:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Sep'Shoni
I have neither interest in nor skills for PVP (if I wanted to shoot people and blow stuff up I'd play Team Fortress II with my teenagers), and we are suddenly at war.

If Eve were really like real life the first priority of the fighting characters would be the protection of the helpless civilian characters. However in Eve guarding me for hours while I mine or move items in a 57 jump round trip with stops in 5 hubs is pretty much the last thing the PVP players want to do.

So, how does an industrial character -- marked with a flashing, neon sign that says, "Soft Target!" -- survive an alliance war without losing tons of isk in expensive ships (and implants), destroyed and tons more isk in mining not done and products not moved to market/destroyed on the way to market?

Mission deadspace mining, check.

Other tips?

Thanks.


It sounds as if your corporate model involves a full chain from mining to production and ultimate distribution to market. At least part of these divisions can be contracted out (think courier contracts.) There is another option, though. What no one here is advising you to do is what many often do...Use Alts!

One of the most useful investments an industrial character/corp can make is the use of OOC alts to do high risk activities during war. Hauling, mining and missions should be avoided at all cost on your "in corp" accounts during war.

Make an investment in time or isk to secure alts, preferably kept in NPC corps, to use when you are at war. This will deny your greifers the soft targets they seek and allow you to keep on with business. If you must use mercs, use them to protect a POS that you can not or do not wish to take down.


Hope this helps.

Podrage
Silent N00bs
Posted - 2009.04.19 09:30:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Podrage on 19/04/2009 09:30:53
Another option since Aopcrypha could be wormholes. Now, those won't let you do your trade runs. However, it's possible to mine there without too many problems. In my experience, WHs are quite empty most of the time. The advantage: your opponents will not be able to find you. Just watch your scanner closely and this could just work. Mind you, I didn't say it was an easy solution.

Regards, PR

Shintai
Gallente
Arx Io Orbital Factories
Arx Io
Posted - 2009.04.19 10:21:00 - [11]
 

Blame your alliance and quit it. Jump corp for the time ebing etc.

hiwaydog
Posted - 2009.04.19 11:07:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Kahega Amielden
Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 19/04/2009 02:43:12
Firstly, always watch local. You'll see WTs appear in the local list.

Secondly, if you're about to get popped, select a celestial object (Actually click on it) and spam the **** out of the "warp to" button in the top right. If you do it correctly, you will instantly warp upon your ship popping and they wont have a chance to get your pod.

If you follow the above to, you should normally be able to get back to station in time.


To avoid runins altogether, move. Find a quiet area a fair ways away and mine there. If they can't roam around your home systems and find you, you're probably fine. However, DO still watch local...they can still find you via the wonders of RandomChance™ and locator agents. Picking a quiet, out-of-the-main-pipeline system as your mining grounds will help with the former, and being enough jumps out that they don't want to bother will help with the latter.

If you need to haul (like ore in large quantities), get an alt or a corpmate to scout ahead for you. Or, use a t2 transport. Blockade runners are uncatchable period with the covops cloak, and you can set a deep space transport up for the cloak + MWD trick (But you need to be able to overheat)


Your corp can even do mining ops if you're confident in the location...although obviously not if there's a spy in your corp.


This

I have used exactly these techniques to great success

btw, if u can not save your pod in hi-low sec using this technique you are not doing it right. I don't know how many guys I have tried to teach this to that just don't get it.
If you do this correctly your pod will escape 100% of the time, using the lag spike created by the destruction of your ship to your advantage. If your pod get's locked and popped because of the lag you did it wrong

Nichola Kreed
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2009.04.19 12:02:00 - [13]
 

use alt corp for indusrty stuff

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2009.04.19 12:16:00 - [14]
 

As industrialist you are not exempt off a game which is fundamentally PvP based.
Both in IRL and in game, as industrialist you have to be flexible and adapt / use what you got at your advantage.

You best bet is to use out-of-corp alts for the risky tasks, like i.e. hauling stuff around. You WILL be eventually caught and killed if you do everything yourself.
The other thing you can do is to use a jump clone with cheap implants instead of your "main". If you don't have standings somewhere (unlikely if you are not new) you can ask a friend to let you create a jump clone in a Rorqual and then use it.

Many corps, moreover, got some weak spots you can use at your advantage.
When we got 7 (!) wardecs we knew that several were pirate / low sec corps who could not really do big things in high sec against us.
If they are also involved in factional war you can use their territorial limit (can't really do a lot in opposite faction space) at your advantage and do your stuff where they can't stay for long.
Furthermore, because some officer declared a war does not mean the members are so hot on prosecuting you, so if you fly nano frigs and similar you don't really risk much even when you meet them (don't believe in warp stabs beyond their real value).

A worse problem would be when they hire specialized mercs. We had 1 very competent "harasser" hired against us who would basically high sec camp stations to kill those who undocked.
Many mercs are worthless and not really dangerous, you might also counter-hire your own mercs to harass them a bit. Attack is best defense, if they are harassed a lot they won't have time to attack you.


Anyway, if of all of the above stuff you: 1) haul with alts, 2) use a jump clone for the wardec duration (can switch to your main when you log off to not lose the implants speed) you are 80% done with the wardec effects.


You'll notice how I did not mention "learn to PvP / defend", because this takes muuuuuuch longer than an average wardec duration.

FatFreddy
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2009.04.19 12:44:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Sep'Shoni
Originally by: Suiki Brindle
Whine less, mine more.


I'm not whining.

While I think that killing helpless industrials has all the moral uprightness of clubbing baby seals and all the combat honor of shooting fish in a barrel


Oh yes you are.

RedSplat
Posted - 2009.04.19 15:00:00 - [16]
 

NPC corp, jump corps, counter dec, hire mercs, watch local...

The odds are stacked so firmly in your favour that if you are getting killed you need to have a sit down and work out why.

Estel Arador
Posted - 2009.04.19 15:30:00 - [17]
 

Whatever you do, don't post on the forums that you're a defenceless carebear; it's like jumping up and down and shouting to your enemies "I'm here, I'm here, please shoot me!"...

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2009.04.20 01:41:00 - [18]
 

Here's a tip : if you're an industrialist in an ALLIANCE, you should be in alliance-soveraign 0.0 space mining there, protected by several other friendlies in the area flying cover, ratting and whatnot... so alliance wars should not matter to you in the first place.
If you're a highsec industrialist in an alliance involved in a war... you're doing something VERY wrong.

Patri Andari
Caldari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
Posted - 2009.04.20 02:17:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Akita T

If you're a highsec industrialist in an alliance involved in a war... you're doing something VERY wrong.



Akita, I m sure you are saying something important here, but please explain what is going "wrong" if an high sec industrial corp is in an alliance that gets griefed by a war dec. I hate being the only one to not "get it."

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2009.04.20 03:06:00 - [20]
 

The main reason to join an alliance is so that you can benefit from the only real advantage of being in an alliance : the ability to claim soveraignty in a 0.0 (non-NPC-sov) system.
The other minor benefit of being in an alliance (wardecs on you cost 50 mil isk base instead of 2 mil ISK base) is also a big drawback, since all wars towards any of the corporations in it automatically become wars against the whole alliance... like the OP painfully discovered.
So, if you're not looking to go into 0.0 to claim space for yourself, and if you're not the only corp in the alliance just so wars against you cost more, you shouldn't BE in an alliance at all in the first place.
Ok, ok, maybe if you join a role-playing alliance for purely role-playing reasons, you also have an excuse, but then again I have a feeling this is not the case.

And that's about the gist of it : if you're a highsec industrialist in an alliance, you're doing it wrong.

Patri Andari
Caldari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
Posted - 2009.04.22 01:23:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Akita T
The main reason to join an alliance is so that you can benefit from the only real advantage of being in an alliance : the ability to claim soveraignty in a 0.0 (non-NPC-sov) system.
The other minor benefit of being in an alliance (wardecs on you cost 50 mil isk base instead of 2 mil ISK base) is also a big drawback, since all wars towards any of the corporations in it automatically become wars against the whole alliance... like the OP painfully discovered.
So, if you're not looking to go into 0.0 to claim space for yourself, and if you're not the only corp in the alliance just so wars against you cost more, you shouldn't BE in an alliance at all in the first place.
Ok, ok, maybe if you join a role-playing alliance for purely role-playing reasons, you also have an excuse, but then again I have a feeling this is not the case.

And that's about the gist of it : if you're a highsec industrialist in an alliance, you're doing it wrong.



Thanks for the response m8

Artemis Rose
Clandestine Vector
THE SPACE P0LICE
Posted - 2009.04.22 02:21:00 - [22]
 

I'd really just wait it out, any of the "serious" business empire war dec corps have alts watching the second you undock, start mining, w/e.

Its not a worthwhile risk to even try business as normal when you may be attacked, any industrialist kills the attackers score will just make them want to keep the war up.

Abrazzar
Posted - 2009.04.22 03:05:00 - [23]
 

On the wardec, stock up on materials for production and(or invention. Then, during the war, sit all day in the station and produce or just sit there afk, smack in local once in a while to keep them interested and basically waste their time with simply being there. Undock and redock to show them that their station camp is actually doing something.

After a week of station camping with zero kills, they will drop the wardec and go looking for more willing victims.

At any rate, don't ever make it fun for your opponents or they will wardec you again. Show them just how annoying it is when you can't do what you want all day because someone isn't playing along.Very Happy

Berilac
Amarr
Northern Intelligence
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2009.04.22 08:54:00 - [24]
 

Wear a cloak. Fit warp core stabs. Don't undock. Don't have fun.

Jake Trader
Posted - 2009.04.22 09:42:00 - [25]
 

Posting with an alt...

Here is what I did as a one man corp with 4 characters. I chose to wait them out and bore them to death.

Making routine runs into lowsec helped to prepare for this eventuality. All chars were trained to fly covops with 2 of them able to fly blockade runners/DSTs.

Just prior to the both war decs I received, my corp had several applications arrive. Odds are good that this was an attempt to infiltrate the corp. Keep a serious eye on any recent additions to your membership and NEVER accept any new members during a war..

Once the war dec kicked in, I kept 2 chars logged in and just sitting at separate offices throughout the 23 hour day. This occupied several of the wartards through some boring station camping. I didn't talk any smack in local as this would break up their boredom.

One char was kept out of station and logged at SS in a covops as a scout. This allowed for limited hauling/trading operations despite my enemy's best attempt to foil it.

At the end of the week, both war decs expired without even a whimper. No losses, with the only time the enemy seeing corp ships was cloaking/uncloaking ships at a couple of gates.

If none of this helps, I would recommend moving you corp to another location.

Whatever you decide, good luck to you and fly safe.

HillAnt
Amarr
HillAnt Corp
Posted - 2009.04.22 11:22:00 - [26]
 

wouldn't the use of contracts personal and corporate and a few player run courier chat channels to advertise your courier contracts for a reasonable fee help? Delegate your shipping if you can help it. Its a lot cheaper then doing it yourself and getting blown up. It may hurt your profit margin and it will take a little longer but getting blown up is no fun either. Being wardecced is a great oppertunity to learn.

Why did your corporation join the alliance that it did? Did your corporation evaluate the risks of getting involved in an alliance and come up with an accurate analysis with which your corp can determine wether or not its such a great idea to be involved in an alliance?

GyokZoli
Caldari
Sanctum of Citizens
Posted - 2009.04.22 13:09:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Sep'Shoni
Originally by: Suiki Brindle
Whine less, mine more.


I'm not whining.

While I think that killing helpless industrials has all the moral uprightness of clubbing baby seals and all the combat honor of shooting fish in a barrel, I accept that the Eve community wants people to be able to club baby seals and shoot fish in barrels.

I am simply asking other industrials for advice about tactics for surviving until the alliance's PVP players (using the ammo, ships, guns, and other supplies that I'll be providing at a substantial discount from market prices), deal the with enemy.


Always mine in a quiet system with just a few residents (so you can watch local w/o scrolling). As soon as wts appear in local dock ASAP. Also always use a scout if you have to warp to an other system (If you don't have a second account, then try using a trial account for scouting). Of course you must use an alt outside of your corp/alliance (create a new alt if needed).
Never fly with expensive stuff, if you have to move then do it in a shuttle or the next smallest ship with big enough cargobay.

But there is only one way to make absolutely sure you will never be caught: never undock when you are at war. If the enemy catches you with something valuable, you just made sure they will pay CONCORD for one more week war. -> nobody will like you in your corp.

skye orionis
Posted - 2009.04.22 15:42:00 - [28]
 

Some hints for miners in wartime
* Don't mine ice - that's the first place they'll look for you
* Don't mine in belts, they'll find you eventually
* Don't mine in a system with only one station,
* Don't mine in a system where you're the only person, it'll be easier to scan you down.
* Don't mine in a system with so many people you can't view local without scrolling
* Keep an eye on local.
* Don't mine in your favourite system.
* Mine rocks found in mission spaces - there are plenty of level 1&2 missions with loads of rocks.
* Don't use drones, they increase the chance of getting scanned down
* Your deadspace booster tanked hulk may laugh at battleships, but a frigate with energy neutralisers will ruin your day really quickly.
* if you see reds in system and aren't brave enough to run to station then you can always dishonour your corp by logging off.

Sep'Shoni
Gallente
Carpe Diem inc.
Posted - 2009.04.22 22:59:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Patri Andari
Originally by: Akita T

If you're a highsec industrialist in an alliance involved in a war... you're doing something VERY wrong.



Akita, I m sure you are saying something important here, but please explain what is going "wrong" if an high sec industrial corp is in an alliance that gets griefed by a war dec. I hate being the only one to not "get it."


I was wondering that myself.

I'm less than 6 months old as a player and have focused all my training on industrial skills. I don't have the ability to survive ordinary low-sec much less null-sec. I don't have a bunch of alts -- I've hardly got this character trained up enough to be effective at what I enjoy doing.

We got war-dec'd out of the blue by a group who get their jollies picking fights with people.

Conducting the fight is not my problem -- I make the ammo, other corp mates shoot it at the enemy. I was just asking for tips on not being a burden and not needing a constant armed escort.

So far, mining mission deadspaces, never using the autopilot, and staying far, far away from the zone of active fighting have worked.

I was hoping that other industrials who have survived wars without undue loss of ships, clones, implants, and isk-making opportunities would have additional suggestions.

Sep'Shoni
Gallente
Carpe Diem inc.
Posted - 2009.04.22 23:03:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Akita T
... if you're a highsec industrialist in an alliance, you're doing it wrong.



And here I thought that when it came to MMOs playing solo, never joining a group, never making any friends, and never being able to call on any resources beyond what you personally were capable of doing all alone was doing it wrong.



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