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K'aos
Caldari
MegaTraveller
Posted - 2009.07.05 16:36:00 - [241]
 

Let's keep this issue at the top.

Lady Shaniqua
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2009.07.05 17:20:00 - [242]
 


drmurda
R E D E M P T I O N
Black Star Alliance
Posted - 2009.07.05 19:48:00 - [243]
 

/Support

yani dumyat
Minmatar
Pixie Cats

Posted - 2009.07.06 14:39:00 - [244]
 

And fix rockets while you're at it Wink

Wang Jing
Posted - 2009.07.07 17:44:00 - [245]
 

Originally by: K'aos
Let's keep this issue at the top.


Agreed Very Happy

Tortugan
Internal Anarchy
WE FORM VOLTRON
Posted - 2009.07.07 18:59:00 - [246]
 

Originally by: Wang Jing
Originally by: K'aos
Let's keep this issue at the top.


Agreed Very Happy


And let's ignore the counter-arguments to this issue, while we're at it! Gooooooo CSM!!!

Wang Jing
Posted - 2009.07.07 20:35:00 - [247]
 

Originally by: Tortugan
Originally by: Wang Jing
Originally by: K'aos
Let's keep this issue at the top.


Agreed Very Happy


And let's ignore the counter-arguments to this issue, while we're at it! Gooooooo CSM!!!


You've just repeatedly stated that AFs are overpowered, giving frankly unbelievable anecdotes as proof. I don't see any new points to address. Perhaps you'd care to state your arguments clearly for me, i might be missing something?

Besides, this has already been forwarded to and approved by the CSM. Of course I'm glad the topic is still active, hopefully is attracting plenty of attention to the issue.

Tortugan
Internal Anarchy
WE FORM VOLTRON
Posted - 2009.07.07 21:42:00 - [248]
 

Originally by: Wang Jing
Originally by: Tortugan
Originally by: Wang Jing
Originally by: K'aos
Let's keep this issue at the top.


Agreed Very Happy


And let's ignore the counter-arguments to this issue, while we're at it! Gooooooo CSM!!!


You've just repeatedly stated that AFs are overpowered, giving frankly unbelievable anecdotes as proof. I don't see any new points to address. Perhaps you'd care to state your arguments clearly for me, i might be missing something?

Besides, this has already been forwarded to and approved by the CSM. Of course I'm glad the topic is still active, hopefully is attracting plenty of attention to the issue.


Firstly, the anecdote was legitimate- whether or not you choose to accept it- however at this point, that's not my argument.

Secondly, I'm not asking for an AF nerf- I'm saying that they're fine as is- and IF ANYTHING overpowered.

As for my argument, you've stated that the relationship between T1 Frigates and T1 Cruisers is balanced, and that it is the equivalent of the relationship between T2 Frigates and T2 Cruisers- therefore, you've argued yourself that the relationship between T2 Frigates and T2 Cruisers is even.

Additionally:
  • AFs are harder to hit than cruisers, therefore tank better by default
  • AFs have ridiculously high resistances- it's not hard to get >80% across the board, which means excellent active tanks, and ridiculously good remote rep (1 large remote rep on an 80% resistance tanks 426 DPS- not even factoring in the size of the ship)
  • AFs cost a fraction of the price of T2 ships of other classes- a Vengeance costs literally 1/7th the cost of a Zealot in Jita, and take about 1/3 the time to skill into
  • A competent AF pilot will engage T2 cruisers, and leave if the fight doesn't go their way- I've engaged Pilgrims, Ishtars, Deimos', to name a few in my AF
  • Every AF has a role- but no AF has every role


The main argument for AFs not receiving a boost is something that's hard for a lot of people to fathom. It's that their mobility is their greatest asset- you can really choose your fights if you know what you're doing, and if people aren't specifically set up to kill you (railguns on a Deimos to catch an orbiting AF? A full nano pilgrim to catch an MWD AF in neut range?) then you can kill them with ease.

What you CANNOT do with AFs is go Rambo into any fight with any ship and expect to win. You need to be cautious- if you're in a blaster Harpy, you probably shouldn't be going after that vexor with small guns & drones. If you're in a rocket Vengeance, your targets should be other AFs and frigates- not cruisers.

AFs are not, and should not become 'I Win' buttons. A competent AF pilot should be capable of taking out some, but not all cruisers- and of course the occasional lucky kill of a better ship. I believe this is the case currently, for the long list of reasons stated above.

I would appreciate some input from our delegates, if any of them have the cajones to actually make arguments for this buff rather than just

Originally by: Larkonis TrassIer





Apologies for the wall of text :)

van Uber
Swedish Aerospace Inc
The Kadeshi
Posted - 2009.07.07 22:06:00 - [249]
 

Originally by: Tortugan


Firstly, the anecdote was legitimate- whether or not you choose to accept it- however at this point, that's not my argument.


Anecdotal evidence is still, you know, anecdotal and does not really add much.

I don't believe everyone here is advocating a buff, but a coherent design with T2 ships. A fourth bonus does not necessary mean a better ship if it is rebalanced in the process. But coherency aside, there are some nagging issues with AFs. For instance why should I bother with Gallente AFs when the Taranis hits harder, fly faster and actually can withstand quite a beating? Sure there are specific situations, but is this how it should be in general?

Tortugan
Internal Anarchy
WE FORM VOLTRON
Posted - 2009.07.07 22:30:00 - [250]
 

Edited by: Tortugan on 07/07/2009 22:30:43
Originally by: van Uber
Originally by: Tortugan


Firstly, the anecdote was legitimate- whether or not you choose to accept it- however at this point, that's not my argument.


Anecdotal evidence is still, you know, anecdotal and does not really add much.

I don't believe everyone here is advocating a buff, but a coherent design with T2 ships. A fourth bonus does not necessary mean a better ship if it is rebalanced in the process. But coherency aside, there are some nagging issues with AFs. For instance why should I bother with Gallente AFs when the Taranis hits harder, fly faster and actually can withstand quite a beating? Sure there are specific situations, but is this how it should be in general?



If they're rebalanced in the process, sure- but quite frankly, they're fine as is, and while adding a 4th bonus might make them more coherent, the rebalancing entailed would just create more work that CCP doesn't need, with no gain. As for Gallente AFs vs 'Ranis, that sounds like you'd be advocating a nerf of the 'ranis rather than a buff of AFs- however if your 'ranis would like to 1v1 my ishkur, I'd be happy to oblige :)

Yahrr
The Tuskers
Posted - 2009.07.09 00:28:00 - [251]
 

bumperbumpbump... bumpbump*

still got my support :)

TakeitDEEP
Posted - 2009.07.09 10:04:00 - [252]
 

Back to the top.

Winter release seems reasonable.

Yon Krum
The Knights Templar
R.A.G.E
Posted - 2009.07.10 04:13:00 - [253]
 

Edited by: Yon Krum on 10/07/2009 04:14:19
Originally by: van Uber
Originally by: Tortugan


Firstly, the anecdote was legitimate- whether or not you choose to accept it- however at this point, that's not my argument.


Anecdotal evidence is still, you know, anecdotal and does not really add much.

I don't believe everyone here is advocating a buff, but a coherent design with T2 ships. A fourth bonus does not necessary mean a better ship if it is rebalanced in the process. But coherency aside, there are some nagging issues with AFs. For instance why should I bother with Gallente AFs when the Taranis hits harder, fly faster and actually can withstand quite a beating? Sure there are specific situations, but is this how it should be in general?



Anecdotal evidence is valid in any court, or for any decision. The deciders must determine if the witness is carrying some bias that taints his testimony, and then weight the preponderence of anecdotes for and against the decision. /legal

For my background: Personally I like AFs, but mostly use Amarr ones, which are definitely not solomobiles (much less solopwnmobiles).

Both your stances are correct, depending on situation and skills (in-game and out) of the pilots. T2 ships used on their designed scenarios generally murder their targets unless a specific counter-setup is encountered.

The point stands, however, that from a coherent design perspective the AFs are lacking somethings. If you consider T2 resistence bonuses to be a "bonus" then HACs have 5 bonuses, same with HICs, as do Interceptors (4 normal + 1 role, but no resistences), and Interdictors (4 + 1 special). Marauders have 7(!) bonuses if you count role and resistences. Recons have 5, not counting covert cyno gen as a bonus but counting resistences. Exhumers have 5, including resistences but not counting fitting strips (which is shared with the mining barge, after all). Command ships have 5.

In fact the only other T2 ship that carries 4 bonuses is the Electronic Attack Ship--which we could do a thread on arguing it is also under-powered and at least needs resistence bonuses.

AF may or may not be fine--especially after rockets are adjusted--but they deserve some special consideration as to whether given overall design and specifically versus their competitors in cost (the Interceptor) they are not in fact underpowered.

--Krum

van Uber
Swedish Aerospace Inc
The Kadeshi
Posted - 2009.07.10 08:23:00 - [254]
 

Originally by: Yon Krum


Anecdotal evidence is valid in any court, or for any decision.

--Krum


I might agree with the first part, but the second. No. In any scientific study you look for statistically secure data, anecdotes has nothing to add there since they describe a single event. And I would argue that game design/balance has a lot more to gain from a scientific perspective.

VanNostrum
Posted - 2009.07.10 14:22:00 - [255]
 


SuiJuris
No.Mercy
Posted - 2009.07.10 17:22:00 - [256]
 

Edited by: SuiJuris on 10/07/2009 17:24:15
Tortugan, Rockets are not fine, I have flown the retribution and Vengeance quite a bit. And I have used both rockets and guns on my Vengeances. It takes a sickening amount of time to kill the most trival of targets with rockets even when they are scrammed and webbed.

I had 4 tech II, rocket launcher and a BCUII fit and a freaking THRASHER was able to de aggress and jump through a gate before dieing. Sure I was in absolutely no danger of him breaking my tank but Rockets are terrible.

Same ship, Vengeance with 3 unbonused LAZORS, completely different story. Rockets not only have worse on paper DPS but suffer from HORRIBLE explosion Radius and volocity so much so that a effing BATTLESHIP with a AB can speed tank some of the damage.

Now on topic here I agree AF's could use a fourth bonus, this has to be done correctly as some AF's are very good ships currently. I do not aggree with Wolf's and Jags needing a Tracking bonus they already use the best tracking turret in the game.

If you are having tracking problems with Small autocannons slow down a littel unless your target is also using small autocannons you should be able to start hitting him before he starts hitting you.

As far as a 4th bonus for the Retribution I think Tracking would be a great bonus for it. ROF might make it hit a leetle too hard.

The Ishkur was passable even before the speed rebalance and is a amazing ship now.

Also if your in a Domi and you for whatever reason decide to use light drones vs a blarpy as opposed to medium drones wth are you doing. Valk II's travel faster then 3kms guys.

I have on numorous occasions jumped a solo Arbitrator into a 8 man frig / af gang and came out either alive or with 4-5 kills, if your Domi can't swat them down I'm really at a loss.

SuiJuris
No.Mercy

Posted - 2009.07.10 17:22:00 - [257]
 


Jaror
Caldari
Interfector INC.
Fade 2 Black
Posted - 2009.07.10 19:39:00 - [258]
 

+1

Flaming Butterfly
Posted - 2009.07.10 23:24:00 - [259]
 

Why not give 10% bonus to afterburner velocity per frigate level?

Retribution definitely needs a second midslot for at least either a small cap booster or some kind of tackle gear.


Tortugan
Internal Anarchy
WE FORM VOLTRON
Posted - 2009.07.11 01:42:00 - [260]
 

Originally by: SuiJuris
Edited by: SuiJuris on 10/07/2009 17:24:15
Tortugan, Rockets are not fine, I have flown the retribution and Vengeance quite a bit. And I have used both rockets and guns on my Vengeances. It takes a sickening amount of time to kill the most trival of targets with rockets even when they are scrammed and webbed.

I had 4 tech II, rocket launcher and a BCUII fit and a freaking THRASHER was able to de aggress and jump through a gate before dieing. Sure I was in absolutely no danger of him breaking my tank but Rockets are terrible.

Same ship, Vengeance with 3 unbonused LAZORS, completely different story. Rockets not only have worse on paper DPS but suffer from HORRIBLE explosion Radius and volocity so much so that a effing BATTLESHIP with a AB can speed tank some of the damage.

Now on topic here I agree AF's could use a fourth bonus, this has to be done correctly as some AF's are very good ships currently. I do not aggree with Wolf's and Jags needing a Tracking bonus they already use the best tracking turret in the game.

If you are having tracking problems with Small autocannons slow down a littel unless your target is also using small autocannons you should be able to start hitting him before he starts hitting you.

As far as a 4th bonus for the Retribution I think Tracking would be a great bonus for it. ROF might make it hit a leetle too hard.

The Ishkur was passable even before the speed rebalance and is a amazing ship now.

Also if your in a Domi and you for whatever reason decide to use light drones vs a blarpy as opposed to medium drones wth are you doing. Valk II's travel faster then 3kms guys.

I have on numorous occasions jumped a solo Arbitrator into a 8 man frig / af gang and came out either alive or with 4-5 kills, if your Domi can't swat them down I'm really at a loss.


If rockets aren't fine, it's not your AF that needs a bonus, it's the weapons system- however if you try your unbonused LAZORZ versus the rockets when attacking another AF, I think you may consider changing your stance. Back when I was pirating, a local would fly around in her rocket vengeance and utterly **** other AFs she fought- just a matter of finding the right targets.

As for the drones- I did indeed use Hobgoblin IIs at the time, and decided to use that example as most people don't realize Valks track frigates with good skills. However, I have since tanked an arbitrator with a flight of Valk IIs in my Ishkur- one of the weaker tanked AFs. And if you don't believe that, I'd be happy to prove it to you. (Clarification: I tanked his drones, I did not pop them, as the arby was friendly, and I was testing a setup- I would have been able to tank them as long as I had cap boosters)

SuiJuris
No.Mercy
Posted - 2009.07.11 02:24:00 - [261]
 

Any AF can sport a strong enough tank to tank 4 rocket launchers on a Vengeance, ANY of them. Its on paper dps is a measely not much over a hundred and you don't get anywhere near that due to the horrible explosion volocity. Rockets Currently are terrible.

Also I have no idea how your having so much success against drone boats with a small ship as I **** ANYTHING frigate sized in my Arbitrator. Enyo's and Ishkurs included. Also not sure if your Aware but a Thrasher sports a horrible tank compaired to a AF especially if its scrammed and webbed and it takes a laughable amount of time to kill even them.

Seriously Get in a Vengeance, Fit Rocket launchers and go try to kill something Beefier then a Executioner, Then come back and tell me how it feels to try beating someone to death with limp noodles.

I fly the Retribution a lot, Its crazy survivable and does decent DPS. Would I love a 4th bonus yes I would. Would I worship the dev incharge of a decision to give it a 2nd mid hell ya. Is it useable now, yes. Is it worth the cost maybe.

Do I look at Ishkurs and wish I was skilled for them Yup, do I look at a Jag and wish I could fly them Yes I do. 4 effing mids. Most the AF's Ishkur Excluded need a little love. Some of them either themselves or there weapon systems (rockets) need love. If a vengeance did 240 DPS with rockets and tanked like it currently does that would be VERY broken, If it got a good 150 dps and could actually applied taht to a webbed scrammed target it would be worth what it costs for something other then a amazing tackler.

And yes the Vengeance with Dual SARII's and Dual Nos is a AMAZING heavy tackler but buffing rockets wouldn't make that better as at that point it can't fit them.

Quit going on about your Ishkur as EVERYONE here aggree's that is the ONLY AF thats about where they should be.

Tortugan
Internal Anarchy
WE FORM VOLTRON
Posted - 2009.07.11 08:24:00 - [262]
 

Originally by: SuiJuris
Any AF can sport a strong enough tank to tank 4 rocket launchers on a Vengeance, ANY of them. Its on paper dps is a measely not much over a hundred and you don't get anywhere near that due to the horrible explosion volocity. Rockets Currently are terrible.

Also I have no idea how your having so much success against drone boats with a small ship as I **** ANYTHING frigate sized in my Arbitrator. Enyo's and Ishkurs included. Also not sure if your Aware but a Thrasher sports a horrible tank compaired to a AF especially if its scrammed and webbed and it takes a laughable amount of time to kill even them.

Seriously Get in a Vengeance, Fit Rocket launchers and go try to kill something Beefier then a Executioner, Then come back and tell me how it feels to try beating someone to death with limp noodles.

I fly the Retribution a lot, Its crazy survivable and does decent DPS. Would I love a 4th bonus yes I would. Would I worship the dev incharge of a decision to give it a 2nd mid hell ya. Is it useable now, yes. Is it worth the cost maybe.

Do I look at Ishkurs and wish I was skilled for them Yup, do I look at a Jag and wish I could fly them Yes I do. 4 effing mids. Most the AF's Ishkur Excluded need a little love. Some of them either themselves or there weapon systems (rockets) need love. If a vengeance did 240 DPS with rockets and tanked like it currently does that would be VERY broken, If it got a good 150 dps and could actually applied taht to a webbed scrammed target it would be worth what it costs for something other then a amazing tackler.

And yes the Vengeance with Dual SARII's and Dual Nos is a AMAZING heavy tackler but buffing rockets wouldn't make that better as at that point it can't fit them.

Quit going on about your Ishkur as EVERYONE here aggree's that is the ONLY AF thats about where they should be.



I suggest you contact Brigita Grohman if you'd like to learn how to fly a vengeance :)

Also, the ishkur is good for its DPS, and its speed. The reference I used was in regards to its tank, which is regarded by most as subpar compared to the other AFs.

ALex Vega
Caldari
Nation of Muppets

Posted - 2009.07.11 13:55:00 - [263]
 

Give the ret a 2nd mid!

Myrkala
Minmatar
Rebel Inc

Posted - 2009.07.11 16:17:00 - [264]
 

Smile

VanNostrum
Posted - 2009.07.11 17:27:00 - [265]
 

Originally by: Tortugan
I suggest you contact Brigita Grohman if you'd like to learn how to fly a vengeance :)



Oh look everybody, there is this Brigita Grohman who knows how to fly a Vengeance when nobody else does

Quick CCP! Hire this Brigita Grohman person and let him/her train the remaining thousands on how to fly the Vengeance since everybody else is stupid, and its easier than fixing rockets Rolling Eyes

Wannabehero
Wayward Ventures
Posted - 2009.07.11 21:30:00 - [266]
 

more bonuses pls!

Tortugan
Internal Anarchy
WE FORM VOLTRON
Posted - 2009.07.11 21:57:00 - [267]
 

Originally by: VanNostrum
Originally by: Tortugan
I suggest you contact Brigita Grohman if you'd like to learn how to fly a vengeance :)



Oh look everybody, there is this Brigita Grohman who knows how to fly a Vengeance when nobody else does

Quick CCP! Hire this Brigita Grohman person and let him/her train the remaining thousands on how to fly the Vengeance since everybody else is stupid, and its easier than fixing rockets Rolling Eyes


Not worth trying to convince people- they'd rather whine that every ship their race is underpowered until they get enough of a whine-blob that CCP has to do something to avoid mass emoragequits :)

Oriodus
Squeaky Bum
Posted - 2009.07.11 22:40:00 - [268]
 

Originally by: Oriodus
A % reduction in capacitor effected by neutralizers (or similar attribute) would be nice...

So any neutralizer being used against an AF with a bonus (lets say 10% per AF level, for the sake of an example) would do 50% of its draining (obvious I know)... but this means 50% from an encounter with a small neut in comparison to a large neut has a huge gap (in favour of the AF if against a medium, heavy), this means frigate versus frigate sized battles where a neutralizer is used wont be impacted too much. On the flipside it means that the AF has a role against larger ships in being able to sustain a grapple against them for that bit longer...

...it was a random thought - so I apologise... my other thoughts were far dirtier though Twisted Evil

Foolish Bob
Caldari
The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2009.07.11 23:37:00 - [269]
 

Wow, this is still going on? I'd have thought it would have been a done deal by now Very Happy

Tortugan, I totally see where you're coming from (see earlier posts) - I love AF. There are however 2 considerations to consider.


1st is design. It is clearly anomalous to have one class of t2 frig excluded from being 4th bonused. The question is - can you conceive of what that bonus might be without making the ship overpowered.

2nd is principle. Yes AF rock, and roll, and bugger your granny sideways if you don't respect their authorotah (just yesterday we killed 2 BS and a HIC that made the age old mistake of "oh it's just a gang of frigs how bad can it - augh! My gran!! Noooooo!!!") but as you fly around in them there's just a little that's not quite there. I've tested them all out and for some it's clearer than others. Ishkur not so much - any of the caldari ones, oh hell yes!

I think what was proposed earlier was a solid proposal to fill both gaps, but it needs people like you and me to stand on Wang et al to make sure that CCP don't take a nerf bat to our beloved ships.

And sorry, but that means no 2nd mid for the retri - even if it is my favourite. Crying or Very sad

SuiJuris
No.Mercy
Posted - 2009.07.12 01:22:00 - [270]
 

Originally by: Tortugan
Originally by: VanNostrum
Originally by: Tortugan
I suggest you contact Brigita Grohman if you'd like to learn how to fly a vengeance :)



Oh look everybody, there is this Brigita Grohman who knows how to fly a Vengeance when nobody else does

Quick CCP! Hire this Brigita Grohman person and let him/her train the remaining thousands on how to fly the Vengeance since everybody else is stupid, and its easier than fixing rockets Rolling Eyes


Not worth trying to convince people- they'd rather whine that every ship their race is underpowered until they get enough of a whine-blob that CCP has to do something to avoid mass emoragequits :)


I never said Vengeances were bad bud, I said a Rocket Vengeances DPS is blatently terrible. Vengeances are awesome just fit 3 guns on them, your flavor, blaster lazors, autocannons. You will kill stuff faster. Once Rockets are fixed I doubt I'll fly much else unless money is tight, and if It got a 4th bonus lets hope for balances sake its not another tank bonus.


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