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blankseplocked [ISSUE] Give Assault Frigates a 4th Bonus
 
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Wang Jing
Posted - 2009.06.26 01:06:00 - [211]
 

I'm sorry, either you failed to stagger you neuts, which means it was purely down to pilot error, or you're lying.

Tortugan
Internal Anarchy
WE FORM VOLTRON
Posted - 2009.06.26 01:23:00 - [212]
 

I staggered them. I can't recall whether he was cap boosting as well or not- and at some point he did cap out, but he'd managed to get me quite a ways into my buffer. Again, they take skill to fly well, but as it stands they are if anything overpowered.

Zenhexzen
Awesome Corp
Posted - 2009.06.26 03:48:00 - [213]
 


GodI'mBeautiful
Posted - 2009.06.26 18:53:00 - [214]
 

Absolutely. Gimme me my tracking on my Jag and my Wolf

darkmancer
Posted - 2009.06.26 19:52:00 - [215]
 

Signed

Make the hawk and vengence useful!!

Ghorrn Kranthil
Posted - 2009.06.26 22:37:00 - [216]
 

well, as we have to gain higer skills for using these ships, they should be worth it, not only for better resistances/slightly better fitting possibilities... so more slots or more interesting bonuses would be fine with me!Smile

Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2009.06.26 22:42:00 - [217]
 

I never really understand the logic behind CCP's refusal to have that 4th bonus. It really can't be their concern for game balance, because HACs have 4 bonuses and they are much more powerful than AF could ever be

I think it's just pure stubbornness, and general aversion to common sense design practices. Once they set their mind on something, no amount of petitioning and logical argumentation is gonna move them. Just give up, and focus on issues that have some hope of getting fixed

Bunzan Cardinal
Ascendent.
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2009.06.27 06:44:00 - [218]
 

i agree

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2009.06.28 12:33:00 - [219]
 

Hawk and Vengeance both suffer from the inadequacies of rockets. Fix rockets and they move way up the list of "good AFs".

Matari AFs with tracking bonus .. talk about being overpowered. Near perfect resists for tank (easy to plug), very high damage for their class, capless weaponry and high speeds .. you want to add superior tracking to that list?

Enyo is scary as is, maybe allow for a pure gank fit by giving it a 5th gun slot, similar to what was done for Zealot.
Ishkur is the best AF currently, no contest. Drones just add so much versatility that nothing really compares.

Quantum Rise gave an indirect boost to the AF class due to the new speed mechanics, but the class itself needs an overhaul as does so many things.
Make them matter as a whole and don't apply band-aid which usually end up being all thats done when the cries stop.

No to deliberately overpowered ships!

Wang Jing
Posted - 2009.06.28 13:24:00 - [220]
 

Edited by: Wang Jing on 28/06/2009 13:24:47
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Hawk and Vengeance both suffer from the inadequacies of rockets. Fix rockets and they move way up the list of "good AFs".

Matari AFs with tracking bonus .. talk about being overpowered. Near perfect resists for tank (easy to plug), very high damage for their class, capless weaponry and high speeds .. you want to add superior tracking to that list?

Enyo is scary as is, maybe allow for a pure gank fit by giving it a 5th gun slot, similar to what was done for Zealot.
Ishkur is the best AF currently, no contest. Drones just add so much versatility that nothing really compares.

Quantum Rise gave an indirect boost to the AF class due to the new speed mechanics, but the class itself needs an overhaul as does so many things.
Make them matter as a whole and don't apply band-aid which usually end up being all thats done when the cries stop.

No to deliberately overpowered ships!



When rockets are rebalanced I hope CCP are sensible enough to look at the ships that use them as part of it. A damage related 4th bonus for the Hawk and Vengeance, couple with whatever rocket changes are made, should bring them to around 140, 150 dps. Seems pretty reasonable to me.

Your take on the Minmatar AFs is pretty staggering. To start with the obvious, your claim that they have very high damage for their class; the Wolf has the lowest dps of all the "gank" AFs (Enyo, Retribution, Wolf and Harpy, defined by slot arrangements and weapon bonuses rather than tanking bonuses). In fact the Wolf is outdamaged by one of the "tackle" AFs as well, the Ishkur, which is frankly appalling. The Jaguar fares a little better, beaten only by the Ishkur in its category, but only because the rocket using AFs are terrible. Note that the Ishkur puts out around 100 dps more than the Jag in a typical set up.

A tracking bonus is the perfect way to address this, as it allows the Minnie ships to actually put their high speed to good use, countering for example the Retribution or Harpy by flying in close and attempting to speed tank, but when fighting an Enyo try to stay at range and use their falloff to win.

The Ishkur needs to remain where it is and the other assault frigs should be brought to that level, in my opinion. I apologise to any Ishkur pilots, but giving it another good bonus, like a drone damage bonus, would just be crazy.

Tortugan
Internal Anarchy
WE FORM VOLTRON
Posted - 2009.06.29 04:13:00 - [221]
 

I think the biggest issue with AFs is that everyone seems to be addressing them according to EFT outputs. While a vengeance or a hawk may put out a very small amount of DPS on paper, when you consider what rockets can do to other frigates, you might be inclined to change your opinion. Again, as I've stated time and time again in this thread- the different ships fare better against different targets, and there is no insta-win button. Considering how ridiculously fast rockets tear T2 frigates apart as it is, a damage bonus or addition of launcher harpoint/s would make them ridiculously overpowered, and upset what little balance has been maintained by CCP through all the complaints from players who don't bother learning how to fly their ships.

And again, as linked from a previous page:
Evidence That Vengeances are fine as is.

Atlanticpyro
Posted - 2009.06.29 04:35:00 - [222]
 

Supported

Izo Alabaster
Posted - 2009.06.29 14:28:00 - [223]
 


Davlos
Deus Imperiosus Acies

Posted - 2009.06.29 20:22:00 - [224]
 

Edited by: Davlos on 29/06/2009 20:28:27
My name is Davlos, and I endorse this product and/or service.

ArcticPrism
Posted - 2009.07.01 16:43:00 - [225]
 

Edited by: ArcticPrism on 20/07/2009 16:12:16
Originally by: Tortugan
Edited by: Tortugan on 25/06/2009 22:11:56
Here's my issue- I've fought a friend in a well-fit harpy in my buffer tanked dominix. I was using a full rack of medium neuts, triple webs, a scram, and hobgoblin IIs. My drone skills are nearly maxed out (interfacing V, combat drone op V, etc) and he ALONE was able to get my 100k EHP dominix into about 65% armor before having to retreat.


You know that hawk/harpy has 80% base thermal resistance in shield right? Even more in armor. Also, what does triple web and scram have to do with anything? You didn't have any guns fitted. It won't do much if anything to improve the effectiveness of a light drone.

JcJet
Caldari
Pretenders Inc
W-Space
Posted - 2009.07.01 21:53:00 - [226]
 

+1

Tortugan
Internal Anarchy
WE FORM VOLTRON
Posted - 2009.07.02 01:13:00 - [227]
 

Originally by: ArcticPrism
Originally by: Tortugan
Edited by: Tortugan on 25/06/2009 22:11:56
Here's my issue- I've fought a friend in a well-fit harpy in my buffer tanked dominix. I was using a full rack of medium neuts, triple webs, a scram, and hobgoblin IIs. My drone skills are nearly maxed out (interfacing V, combat drone op V, etc) and he ALONE was able to get my 100k EHP dominix into about 65% armor before having to retreat.


You know that hawk/harpy has 80% base thermal resistance in shield right? Even more in armor. Also, what does triple web and scram have to do with anything? You didn't have any guns fitted. It won't do much if anything to improve the effectiveness of a light drone.


And an 80% base thermal resistance doesn't make it OP? Admittedly, 1-2 TPs would've been better than the extra webs, but I wanted it to be somewhat realistic- if I was actually expected to hold a harpy down in my 100m/s dominix, I'd need some damn good tackle. Not to mention, web/scrams do help small drones hit, as they slow down the target & ultimately increase the drones' ROF since they no longer need to chase.

ArcticPrism
Posted - 2009.07.02 01:30:00 - [228]
 

Edited by: ArcticPrism on 02/07/2009 01:32:37
Originally by: Tortugan
Originally by: ArcticPrism
Originally by: Tortugan
Edited by: Tortugan on 25/06/2009 22:11:56
Here's my issue- I've fought a friend in a well-fit harpy in my buffer tanked dominix. I was using a full rack of medium neuts, triple webs, a scram, and hobgoblin IIs. My drone skills are nearly maxed out (interfacing V, combat drone op V, etc) and he ALONE was able to get my 100k EHP dominix into about 65% armor before having to retreat.


You know that hawk/harpy has 80% base thermal resistance in shield right? Even more in armor. Also, what does triple web and scram have to do with anything? You didn't have any guns fitted. It won't do much if anything to improve the effectiveness of a light drone.


And an 80% base thermal resistance doesn't make it OP? Admittedly, 1-2 TPs would've been better than the extra webs, but I wanted it to be somewhat realistic- if I was actually expected to hold a harpy down in my 100m/s dominix, I'd need some damn good tackle. Not to mention, web/scrams do help small drones hit, as they slow down the target & ultimately increase the drones' ROF since they no longer need to chase.


If you are worried about your drones missing, use Warriors, they have much better tracking and are faster than hobgoblins and explosive is one of the harpy's weaker resists. Also, if 80% thermal makes the harpy overpowered, you would agree that T2 Frigates, Cruisers and Battlecruisers are all overpowered then? Nearly all of them have quite high base resists.

Neesa Corrinne
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2009.07.02 02:46:00 - [229]
 


Tortugan
Internal Anarchy
WE FORM VOLTRON
Posted - 2009.07.02 04:02:00 - [230]
 

Originally by: ArcticPrism
Edited by: ArcticPrism on 02/07/2009 01:32:37
Originally by: Tortugan
Originally by: ArcticPrism
Originally by: Tortugan
Edited by: Tortugan on 25/06/2009 22:11:56
Here's my issue- I've fought a friend in a well-fit harpy in my buffer tanked dominix. I was using a full rack of medium neuts, triple webs, a scram, and hobgoblin IIs. My drone skills are nearly maxed out (interfacing V, combat drone op V, etc) and he ALONE was able to get my 100k EHP dominix into about 65% armor before having to retreat.


You know that hawk/harpy has 80% base thermal resistance in shield right? Even more in armor. Also, what does triple web and scram have to do with anything? You didn't have any guns fitted. It won't do much if anything to improve the effectiveness of a light drone.


And an 80% base thermal resistance doesn't make it OP? Admittedly, 1-2 TPs would've been better than the extra webs, but I wanted it to be somewhat realistic- if I was actually expected to hold a harpy down in my 100m/s dominix, I'd need some damn good tackle. Not to mention, web/scrams do help small drones hit, as they slow down the target & ultimately increase the drones' ROF since they no longer need to chase.


If you are worried about your drones missing, use Warriors, they have much better tracking and are faster than hobgoblins and explosive is one of the harpy's weaker resists. Also, if 80% thermal makes the harpy overpowered, you would agree that T2 Frigates, Cruisers and Battlecruisers are all overpowered then? Nearly all of them have quite high base resists.


Warriors also put out a significant amount less DPS- especially when comparing the T2 drones- however that's not my argument. As far as overpowered ships, T2 cruisers + BCs are infinitely easier to lock down than frigates- scram, web, and they're fish in a barrel. Frigates on the other hand generally require at least 2 webs to be fully tackled by anything cruiser+. Hence, I think AFs are overpowered if anything- not underpowered. As for other T2 ships, I think they're for the most part fine as is, aside from build costs.

Wang Jing
Posted - 2009.07.02 09:43:00 - [231]
 

So the Harpy is overpowered, but the Eagle, with exactly the same base resists, the same 3 bonuses, plus a 4th bonus for 5% shield resists per level, isn't?


ViRUS Pottage
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2009.07.02 16:02:00 - [232]
 

Supported!

Tortugan
Internal Anarchy
WE FORM VOLTRON
Posted - 2009.07.03 02:19:00 - [233]
 

Edited by: Tortugan on 03/07/2009 02:22:48
Originally by: Wang Jing
So the Harpy is overpowered, but the Eagle, with exactly the same base resists, the same 3 bonuses, plus a 4th bonus for 5% shield resists per level, isn't?




The Eagle is a cruiser, and costs quite a bit more- both in ISK and SP. The Harpy is a frigate. Again, I'm not saying that AFs are overpowered as is- but they certainly could use a nerf more than a boost.

Edit: Typo

Wang Jing
Posted - 2009.07.03 11:16:00 - [234]
 

Originally by: Tortugan
Edited by: Tortugan on 03/07/2009 02:22:48
Originally by: Wang Jing
So the Harpy is overpowered, but the Eagle, with exactly the same base resists, the same 3 bonuses, plus a 4th bonus for 5% shield resists per level, isn't?




The Eagle is a cruiser, and costs quite a bit more- both in ISK and SP. The Harpy is a frigate. Again, I'm not saying that AFs are overpowered as is- but they certainly could use a nerf more than a boost.

Edit: Typo


The Merlin is a Frigate and the Moa a cruiser, and they both have the same 2 bonuses. I guess the Merlin needs a nerf?


Diakono
The Scope

Posted - 2009.07.03 11:48:00 - [235]
 


ltsignal
Posted - 2009.07.03 20:34:00 - [236]
 

I think this would be a great thing to do for the v1.5 release in August.

Tortugan
Internal Anarchy
WE FORM VOLTRON
Posted - 2009.07.03 22:51:00 - [237]
 

Edited by: Tortugan on 03/07/2009 22:57:05
Originally by: Wang Jing
Originally by: Tortugan
Edited by: Tortugan on 03/07/2009 02:22:48
Originally by: Wang Jing
So the Harpy is overpowered, but the Eagle, with exactly the same base resists, the same 3 bonuses, plus a 4th bonus for 5% shield resists per level, isn't?




The Eagle is a cruiser, and costs quite a bit more- both in ISK and SP. The Harpy is a frigate. Again, I'm not saying that AFs are overpowered as is- but they certainly could use a nerf more than a boost.

Edit: Typo


The Merlin is a Frigate and the Moa a cruiser, and they both have the same 2 bonuses. I guess the Merlin needs a nerf?




Nope.

Quote:
Again, I'm not saying that AFs are overpowered as is- but they certainly could use a nerf more than a boost.



Quote:
Your arguments- T2 needs a boost, T2 is the same as T1 in terms of comparative bonuses


"I guess the Merlin needs a boost?"

Mahai Ano
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies

Posted - 2009.07.04 16:13:00 - [238]
 

Would be nice...

Kaylan Jahlar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2009.07.04 16:15:00 - [239]
 

Edited by: Kaylan Jahlar on 04/07/2009 16:15:11
Well supported!

Nico Minoru
Posted - 2009.07.04 16:15:00 - [240]
 

shamelessly and with barely a clue i say sure.


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