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blankseplocked [ISSUE] Give Assault Frigates a 4th Bonus
 
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Kaito Haakkainen
Posted - 2009.06.01 00:35:00 - [151]
 


Pliauga
Gallente
Posted - 2009.06.02 08:44:00 - [152]
 

Oh yes, sweet fr!ckn yes.

Dracoknight
Posted - 2009.06.02 09:23:00 - [153]
 

want bonus!

Holy Lowlander
Lone Star Joint Venture
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2009.06.02 11:12:00 - [154]
 


Tortugan
Internal Anarchy
WE FORM VOLTRON
Posted - 2009.06.02 14:24:00 - [155]
 

Not supported (from someone who's favorite ship is an AF). AFs are already plenty powerful for a t2 frigate hull- that one smart AF pilot alone can kill most PVP fit (passive/plated) battleships solo is a clear indication of this. I'm not going to run around waving my arms and screaming "NERF AFS ONGZZZ"- but honestly? They're small enough barely anything can hit them, when fit right can tank insanely well for a frigate, and put out enough DPS to have a chance against active tanked ships- quit QQing because your setup sucks :)

Ana Vyr
Caldari
Posted - 2009.06.02 15:13:00 - [156]
 

Supported.

Ulstan
Posted - 2009.06.02 17:15:00 - [157]
 

Definitely supported.

AF's definitely need their missing 4th bonus.

Some AF's just plain suck even compared to other AF's.

All AF's that use rockets (like the vengeance) are gimped because rockets suck.

The Hawk, in addition, sucks even beyond that, doing less damage than the T1 variant, the Kestrel, when using rockets or when using light missiles.

Wang Jing
Posted - 2009.06.03 09:37:00 - [158]
 

Originally by: Tortugan
Not supported (from someone who's favorite ship is an AF). AFs are already plenty powerful for a t2 frigate hull- that one smart AF pilot alone can kill most PVP fit (passive/plated) battleships solo is a clear indication of this. I'm not going to run around waving my arms and screaming "NERF AFS ONGZZZ"- but honestly? They're small enough barely anything can hit them, when fit right can tank insanely well for a frigate, and put out enough DPS to have a chance against active tanked ships- quit QQing because your setup sucks :)


A smart pilot can kill almost anything if its fitted in a way that makes it susceptible. You could kill a passive tanked BS in a rifter. Does't mean that rifter is worth 20 mil isk.

I'm guessing you're an Ishkur pilot. Try flying a Vengeance or a Hawk and then tell me they're fine. The point is the role of an AF is a niche one; the circumstances in which they can be used limited. They can fill that role, yes, but they're not particularly spectacular at it. All other T2 combat ships get 4 bonuses, AFs deserve a 4th bonus so they can be a little bit better at what they do, and give the same value for money as other T2 ships.

Amasai
Starfire Oasis
Thalion Syndicate
Posted - 2009.06.03 12:22:00 - [159]
 

2 thumbs up, assualt ship damage or damage related bonus additions would be great

Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2009.06.03 20:25:00 - [160]
 

Edited by: Alekseyev Karrde on 03/06/2009 20:30:12
Make the bonuses similar to their HAC big brothers (or otherwise diverse between races/classes) but watered down.

Enyo: 5% armor repair amount
Ishkur: 5% drone damage (or 5% drone speed, or some kind of bandwidth bonus would be interesting)
Retribution: 5% small laser rof
Vengeance: 5% rocket rof (or 5% armor HP)
Harpy: Tough one to do in this circumstance, but i think 5% resist would be appropriate given it needs to put alot of mids into its sniper role. Scan Res/Lock Range bonus would also work here.
Hawk: 5% rof
Wolf: 5% rof or 5% speed
Jaguar: 5% tracking or 5% rof

EDIT: to be clear, i think AF's have come a long way. But they still arnt quite there. The "4th bonus" was a joke; everyone that flys them knows they should have had those resistances base from day 1. Give them the T2 bonus they are supposed to get for being a t2 ship and they will be spot on ships with a solid role and accurate cost.

Adarek Rhendyl
Posted - 2009.06.05 07:51:00 - [161]
 


Kayvonna
Caldari
Space Explorations and Excavations
Galactic Syndicate
Posted - 2009.06.05 09:32:00 - [162]
 


Wang Jing
Posted - 2009.06.06 08:33:00 - [163]
 

Edited by: Wang Jing on 06/06/2009 08:33:00
Thanks for all the support so far! It would be nice to hear from the new CSM members though Razz

HavocWind
Posted - 2009.06.06 21:22:00 - [164]
 

Originally by: Lumy
Hawk: 5% missile damage
Harpy: 5% shield resistance

Ishkur: 5% drone tracking or 5% drone MWD speed? Honestly, I have no idea.
Enyo: 5% light hybrid damage

Wolf: 7.5% light projectile tracking
Jaguar: 7.5% light projectile tracking

Vengeance: move 5% armor resist to frigate bonus and add 5% rocket damage to AF
Retribution: 5% light laser damage

Bottom notes:
1. It would be more natural to give ships ROF bonus instead of 2nd damage bonus, but this could be bad for server considering small guns have already high ROF.
2. Swap falloff and optimal for minmatar ships. Jaguar is natural AC boat and Wolf is more suited for sniping.
3. 2nd damage bonus for Enyo and Retribution could be overpowered? I'm not sure. Considering Taranis has 3 guns and dual damage bonus and Crusader has already 4 guns. Also all HACs have ROF and damage bonuses with equal amount of hardpoints. Obvious exceptions are Eagle with double sniper bonus and Ishtar droneboat.
4. Why is Jaguar the only ship with 3 gun hardpoints? Except Enyo of course, but full flight of light drones makes up to it.



Everything here. Though rather then second dmg bonus should really give RoF as stated.

Wang Jing
Posted - 2009.06.06 21:28:00 - [165]
 

Originally by: HavocWind
Originally by: Lumy
Hawk: 5% missile damage
Harpy: 5% shield resistance

Ishkur: 5% drone tracking or 5% drone MWD speed? Honestly, I have no idea.
Enyo: 5% light hybrid damage

Wolf: 7.5% light projectile tracking
Jaguar: 7.5% light projectile tracking

Vengeance: move 5% armor resist to frigate bonus and add 5% rocket damage to AF
Retribution: 5% light laser damage

Bottom notes:
1. It would be more natural to give ships ROF bonus instead of 2nd damage bonus, but this could be bad for server considering small guns have already high ROF.
2. Swap falloff and optimal for minmatar ships. Jaguar is natural AC boat and Wolf is more suited for sniping.
3. 2nd damage bonus for Enyo and Retribution could be overpowered? I'm not sure. Considering Taranis has 3 guns and dual damage bonus and Crusader has already 4 guns. Also all HACs have ROF and damage bonuses with equal amount of hardpoints. Obvious exceptions are Eagle with double sniper bonus and Ishtar droneboat.
4. Why is Jaguar the only ship with 3 gun hardpoints? Except Enyo of course, but full flight of light drones makes up to it.



Everything here. Though rather then second dmg bonus should really give RoF as stated.


Cool. I'd be very happy if those were the bonuses chosen.

Squischie
Posted - 2009.06.07 04:31:00 - [166]
 

/signed

Bunyip
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2009.06.07 05:32:00 - [167]
 

Being a droneboat pilot myself, I think the Ishkur should get the same bonus the Vexor, Myrm, Domi, Ishtar, etc get - 10% bonus to drone damage and HP per level. This makes it in the same line as it's cousins, and isn't over-powered, since it can only field a maximum of 5 light drones. I'd put the optimal range bonus with the Gallente Frigate skill, and move this bonus to the Assault Ships skill.

Phantom Slave
Universal Pest Exterminators
Posted - 2009.06.07 06:15:00 - [168]
 

Support given. I love my Vengeance but it's a bit weak in the DPS side of things.

Wang Jing
Posted - 2009.06.07 10:37:00 - [169]
 

Originally by: Bunyip
Being a droneboat pilot myself, I think the Ishkur should get the same bonus the Vexor, Myrm, Domi, Ishtar, etc get - 10% bonus to drone damage and HP per level. This makes it in the same line as it's cousins, and isn't over-powered, since it can only field a maximum of 5 light drones. I'd put the optimal range bonus with the Gallente Frigate skill, and move this bonus to the Assault Ships skill.


A typical blaster Iskur fit - with no magstabs - would be pushing 280 dps with level 5 skills and the drone damage bonus you suggest. Thats ridiculous. A blaster Enyo with ions, 1 magstab and damage rigs will only do 269 with max skills. You see the problem. The Ishkur is already overpowered. It needs a dps nerf if anything.

Tortugan
Internal Anarchy
WE FORM VOLTRON
Posted - 2009.06.07 10:41:00 - [170]
 

Originally by: Wang Jing
Originally by: Tortugan
Not supported (from someone who's favorite ship is an AF). AFs are already plenty powerful for a t2 frigate hull- that one smart AF pilot alone can kill most PVP fit (passive/plated) battleships solo is a clear indication of this. I'm not going to run around waving my arms and screaming "NERF AFS ONGZZZ"- but honestly? They're small enough barely anything can hit them, when fit right can tank insanely well for a frigate, and put out enough DPS to have a chance against active tanked ships- quit QQing because your setup sucks :)


A smart pilot can kill almost anything if its fitted in a way that makes it susceptible. You could kill a passive tanked BS in a rifter. Does't mean that rifter is worth 20 mil isk.

I'm guessing you're an Ishkur pilot. Try flying a Vengeance or a Hawk and then tell me they're fine. The point is the role of an AF is a niche one; the circumstances in which they can be used limited. They can fill that role, yes, but they're not particularly spectacular at it. All other T2 combat ships get 4 bonuses, AFs deserve a 4th bonus so they can be a little bit better at what they do, and give the same value for money as other T2 ships.


A rocket hawk will tear apart any ishkur that can't stay at range, and a vengeance will tank it until backup arrives. Yes, I am an ishkur pilot, myself- as I currently fly solely Gallente, however, I know plenty of AF pilots of other races, who feel the way I do. I've seen harpies take on dominixes- in fact, I've tested a friend's harpy on my domi- a ship perfectly equipped to kill afs (I had a full rack of smal/med neuts, stasis webs, and nearly skill-maxed hob IIs)- and yet he /still/ managed to take a chunk out of my armor buffer before he called me off.

AFs have very specific roles, as do most T2 ships. Some are better at tanking, others are better at tackling, others are better at putting out solid DPS. I don't think it would be the end of the world if they got a buff, but I really don't think it's necessary.

Jigoku Shiya
Posted - 2009.06.07 11:29:00 - [171]
 

Supported.

Maxsim Goratiev
Gallente
Imperial Tau Syndicate
POD-SQUAD
Posted - 2009.06.07 17:03:00 - [172]
 

Quote:
AFs have very specific roles, as do most T2 ships. Some are better at tanking, others are better at tackling, others are better at putting out solid DPS. I don't think it would be the end of the world if they got a buff, but I really don't think it's necessary.

they are powerfull ships as it is. I doubt they need a beef.

Li Jingmao
Posted - 2009.06.08 06:39:00 - [173]
 

Supported

tobi ath
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies

Posted - 2009.06.08 07:20:00 - [174]
 

Supported. Frigates are one of the most fun ship classes to fly, and I thoroughly enjoy my time in AF so far. However, they are certainly lacking when compared to the other T2 ships.

I've only ever really flown Gallente and Amarr, so I will comment on my ideas for these two race's ships.

Enyo: bump the optimal range bonus up to frigate and add a 5% bonus to armor repair amount per AF level.
Ishkur: again, bump optimal range bonus up to frigate and add a 5% drone mwd speed bonus

Retribution: 5% bonus to small energy turret rate of fire in the frigate bonuses.
Vengeance: 5% bonus to launcher rate of fire in the frigate bonuses.

perix
Minmatar
Sane Industries Inc.
Initiative Mercenaries
Posted - 2009.06.08 08:06:00 - [175]
 

+1

Wang Jing
Posted - 2009.06.09 09:08:00 - [176]
 

Still waiting for the CSM. Come on guys!

holyone
Destructive Influence
IT Alliance
Posted - 2009.06.09 13:29:00 - [177]
 

Supported.

Assault Ships seem a little over-looked as it is, and more as a skill you have to get to 4 to be able to fly Heavy Assault Ships.

Give 'em some luv!

Tortugan
Internal Anarchy
WE FORM VOLTRON
Posted - 2009.06.10 09:43:00 - [178]
 

Edited by: Tortugan on 10/06/2009 09:47:25
Dear god.

Frigates are fun as hell to fly, because they're fast, exhilarating, and maneuverable. For those exact reasons (excluding exhilaration :P) they're already plenty powerful. I strongly believe that those of you who are asking for an AF buff are people who are not yet accustomed to flying frigate-class ships.

I used to suck miserably at flying ishkurs- I fit them very similarly to how I do today, but I just didn't know how to use them properly- I think my record was losing one within 30 minutes of fitting it >.>

It takes quite a bit of practice to master flying them, as they're small, and squishy if you make the wrong move- but to someone who knows what they're doing, AFs are nearly indestructible.

Really- stop complaining that your Vengeance isn't putting out as much DPS as a Zealot- with the right setup, head to head, you'd win.

This is coming from someone who's absolute favorite ship class is the assault frigate- they do not need a boost. Any of the proposed changes would make the class ridiculously overpowered.

http://intan.evekb.co.uk/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=64088&view=ships_weapons
78 kills in an AF to 3 losses (two of which were instapopped by POSes XD)... yeah- I think we need a boost.

EDIT: Why not spend some time considering how we could effectively buff the EAF class? I'd wager that 50% of the people reading this thread don't even know what a Keres is.

Wang Jing
Posted - 2009.06.10 14:20:00 - [179]
 

Originally by: Tortugan
Edited by: Tortugan on 10/06/2009 09:47:25
Dear god.

Frigates are fun as hell to fly, because they're fast, exhilarating, and maneuverable. For those exact reasons (excluding exhilaration :P) they're already plenty powerful. I strongly believe that those of you who are asking for an AF buff are people who are not yet accustomed to flying frigate-class ships.

I used to suck miserably at flying ishkurs- I fit them very similarly to how I do today, but I just didn't know how to use them properly- I think my record was losing one within 30 minutes of fitting it >.>

It takes quite a bit of practice to master flying them, as they're small, and squishy if you make the wrong move- but to someone who knows what they're doing, AFs are nearly indestructible.

Really- stop complaining that your Vengeance isn't putting out as much DPS as a Zealot- with the right setup, head to head, you'd win.

This is coming from someone who's absolute favorite ship class is the assault frigate- they do not need a boost. Any of the proposed changes would make the class ridiculously overpowered.

http://intan.evekb.co.uk/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=64088&view=ships_weapons
78 kills in an AF to 3 losses (two of which were instapopped by POSes XD)... yeah- I think we need a boost.

EDIT: Why not spend some time considering how we could effectively buff the EAF class? I'd wager that 50% of the people reading this thread don't even know what a Keres is.


Another Ishkur pilot claiming AFs are fine. Why am I not surprised?

Ishkur is by far the best AF. The others would be on par with the Ishkur after getting a 4th bonus.

Imagine an Ishkur with just the drones for dps. Then you'll have about the same dps as a Vengenace or Hawk. Even without the drone bay, blasters and 1 magstab will do the same dps as a Jaguar! In fact an Ishkur does a lot more dps then a Wolf, whilst having full tackle.

If you'd have read the thread you'd see that most people here feel the ishkur is overpowered. Your claim that it is just fine is ok though, because the aim is for all AFs to be at that level.

Tortugan
Internal Anarchy
WE FORM VOLTRON
Posted - 2009.06.10 20:07:00 - [180]
 

Edited by: Tortugan on 10/06/2009 20:44:12
Originally by: Wang Jing
Originally by: Tortugan
Edited by: Tortugan on 10/06/2009 09:47:25
Dear god.

Frigates are fun as hell to fly, because they're fast, exhilarating, and maneuverable. For those exact reasons (excluding exhilaration :P) they're already plenty powerful. I strongly believe that those of you who are asking for an AF buff are people who are not yet accustomed to flying frigate-class ships.

I used to suck miserably at flying ishkurs- I fit them very similarly to how I do today, but I just didn't know how to use them properly- I think my record was losing one within 30 minutes of fitting it >.>

It takes quite a bit of practice to master flying them, as they're small, and squishy if you make the wrong move- but to someone who knows what they're doing, AFs are nearly indestructible.

Really- stop complaining that your Vengeance isn't putting out as much DPS as a Zealot- with the right setup, head to head, you'd win.

This is coming from someone who's absolute favorite ship class is the assault frigate- they do not need a boost. Any of the proposed changes would make the class ridiculously overpowered.

http://intan.evekb.co.uk/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=64088&view=ships_weapons
78 kills in an AF to 3 losses (two of which were instapopped by POSes XD)... yeah- I think we need a boost.

EDIT: Why not spend some time considering how we could effectively buff the EAF class? I'd wager that 50% of the people reading this thread don't even know what a Keres is.


Another Ishkur pilot claiming AFs are fine. Why am I not surprised?

Ishkur is by far the best AF. The others would be on par with the Ishkur after getting a 4th bonus.

Imagine an Ishkur with just the drones for dps. Then you'll have about the same dps as a Vengenace or Hawk. Even without the drone bay, blasters and 1 magstab will do the same dps as a Jaguar! In fact an Ishkur does a lot more dps then a Wolf, whilst having full tackle.

If you'd have read the thread you'd see that most people here feel the ishkur is overpowered. Your claim that it is just fine is ok though, because the aim is for all AFs to be at that level.


...And if you'd have read this thread, you'd have heard my counter-argument:

Retribution: Adds great DPS to frig gangs with an insane tank
Vengeance: Tackles fine, and tanks almost as well as the Retri
Jaguar: Puts out ridiculous DPS, and has the great advantage of speed over other AFs (in addition to a solid buffer tank)
Wolf: DPS similar to Jag, but slower, better active tank
Ishkur: Can be fit as either close-range for crazy DPS with a small tank, or long range for sustained tackling with drones on your prey
Enyo: Makes a great tackler, as it has a ridiculous tank for an AF, and with scan res rigs, targets as fast as interceptors
Harpy: Blarpies put out- fill the highs with blasters and one nos, and even neuted you'll be able to permarun a tank that can withstand a flight of bonused hobgoblin IIs
Hawk: Probably the best anti-AF platform- hop rockets on one and maybe a nanofiber internal structure to help stay in range, and watch frigs get WTFpwned

I'm honestly tempted to cross-train into other AFs just so I can show you first hand evidence that they don't need a buff- but until then:

Loki Farseer - Caldari AF pilot with 29 kills in AFs to 3 losses
Brigita Grohman - Even more ridiculous #s of kills to loses in a Amarr AFs
Danny X - 25 kills in Minmatar AFs to 0 losses
And again: Tortugan - 78 : 3 with Gallente

Quit complaining.


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