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Rahjadan Shardur
Minmatar
Mafia Redux

Posted - 2009.05.09 00:00:00 - [91]
 

i support the 4th bonus

Foolish Bob
Caldari
The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2009.05.09 00:59:00 - [92]
 

Originally by: Wang Jing

Well, the thing with a retribution is...



You're absolutely not wrong about the omen - my shield omen hits harder, aligns faster and has more EHP than my buffered retri. Coming from FW though, there is a key point about them (and similar af's) that makes me nervous about having another bonus.

Against cruisers and higher - the other day part of my fleet that I was with caught a rupture at a gate. The pilot either realised that his chances of escape were slim or thought to make a fight of it, but either way turned his attention to my little retribution - which sat there and laughed as his guns nibbled fitfully at my buffer. Had I been in my omen I'd have been a mite more concerned. Battleships are the same story.

Against frigs and destroyers - this is the main bonus in my view - good dps and more than twice the scan res of the omen means that frigs, and even inties melt almost as soon as a few of these appear on the field. When warping a fleet into battle, I often give the order for weapons free on small ships before we consolidate on a primary a) because seeing 4-5 enemy ship simultaneously detonate 5 seconds after you've loaded grid is very VERY cool and b) nothing demoralises a fleet like having a quarter of their number in pods before their fc has finished saying what the primary target is

Retributions work especially well in this kind of role because of the advantages of scorch ammo, and if they are hit first, they last a lot longer than, say, a thrasher in the same role.

In small-medium gang knife fights like this then, when paired with interceptors, assault frigs of all flavours (except maybe the caldari ones) really shine, and I'm concerned that any bonus you could add would make them a little blinding. Consider the options for boosting:

EHP
Rep
DPS
Speed
Sig Rad

Speed first. Yes there is a case for making ab's more effective on af's, but either the boost is insubstantial or we're in the realms of reaching the speed of an ab inty, and we justify that?

Sig Rad. Af's are already a bugger to hit for solo targets. I'm not sure we can argue that one.

DPS. Yes I know - the vengence. Still let's wait for the rockets boost for that one. The others though all do good solid (and in some cases insane) dps. I don't think we have a case for making them even more potent in this department.

Rep. My instinct is that the vengence is probably as good as we want to go on this. Making the other tackle af's match that is probably the best we can do, and that can best be done by tweaking existing bonuses rather than adding new ones

EHP. Most af can already almost field the ehp of a light cruiser, with the aforementioned buggerness to hit. I don't think we can justify any more.

There framework for discussion laid out. Very Happy

Wang Jing
Posted - 2009.05.09 10:01:00 - [93]
 

Excellent post Foolish Bob! I've seen you flying around in your Vengeance btw Smile I'll say hello next time.

Ok, so, you have perfectly valid concers, and I think to be honest the only way to address them is on a case by case basis. Please forgive the EFT warrioring here Embarassed

First of all, I'm basing this on the idea that Assault Ships/Frigates should be to Cruisers as Heavy Assault Ships/HACs are to Battlecruisers. Smaller and faster but with similar dps and tank, in exchange for a lot more isk. Given the popularity of HACs in guerilla warfare style attacks, this is definitly worth the isk. However when people want to do the same thing in frigate hulls, it seems Taranises and Stealth Bombers are the way to go (for further reading join the channel "Garmonism" Smile). Note I've used fits from SHC/Battleclinic to try and keep all examples used reasonable.

With that established, I'm going to compare Assault Frigs as the are now to Cruisers, and do the same with HACs and Battlecruisers.

I want to look at the Harpy first. As already stated, I believe it should get the %5 resists per level in common with every other Caldari Railboat. This would give it the same 4 bonus as the Eagle.

[Harpy, Blaster ]
Damage Control II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

1MN Afterburner II
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Patterned Stasis Web I
Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction

Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
[empty high slot]

Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I

Using all level 5 we get 210 dps, just under 10k EHP and a cost of 47 mil isk according to EFT.

[Moa, Blaster]
Damage Control II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

10MN MicroWarpdrive I
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I
Large Shield Extender II
Invulnerability Field II

Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Medium Nosferatu II

[empty rig slot]
[empty rig slot]
[empty rig slot]

Hobgoblin II x3

This gives 410 dps, 25k EHp and a cost of around 24 mil isk, after insurance.

So for twice the price, you're getting 51% of the DPS, and 39% of the EHP. This seems ok, but now lets look at the Eagle and Ferox:

[Eagle, Blaster]
Damage Control II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Invulnerability Field II

Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Medium Nosferatu II

Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I

438 DPS and 58k EHP for a cool 143 mil isk.

I'll continue in another post with the ferox..

Wang Jing
Posted - 2009.05.09 10:46:00 - [94]
 

[Ferox, Blaster]
Damage Control II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

10MN MicroWarpdrive I
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Invulnerability Field II

Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Small Nosferatu II

Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I

Hobgoblin II x5

550 dps, 67k ehp. When it goes pop, around 50 mil isk down the drain. This means the Eagle has 80% of the dps of a Ferox, and 86% of the EHP, for just under three times the cost.

I propose a 5% resists bonus per level, bringing the Harpy to around 15k ehp. With the lower price, and better sig radius and speed relative to the Moa than the Eagle has relative to the Ferox, we can't expect to get similar DPS and EHP to a Moa, but a boost to the Harpy's tank would be balanced in the spirit of the ship's description.


Tozmeister
Digital Fury Corporation

Posted - 2009.05.09 12:00:00 - [95]
 

give them their 4th bonus

Foolish Bob
Caldari
The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2009.05.09 12:10:00 - [96]
 

I don't accept your comparison: HAC's and BC's are both anti-cruiser platforms, with an option to providing dps on other targets. A cruiser is not an anti-frig platform - that's the role of destroyers, inties and af (and ofc frigs), so whereas HAC's and BC's operating in a similar battlespace (if we can coin that term) should be equivalent, I would argue that there's no such requirement for af's wrt cruisers.

In those terms then I think that any boost has to be made on its own merit for the role an af has - which is not to say that 5% resists on the caldari af wouldn't go amiss - indeed anything that makes them more worthwhile would be welcome. But we can't use cruisers as justification imo.

Laerise
Amarr
PIE Inc.

Posted - 2009.05.09 13:21:00 - [97]
 


Wang Jing
Posted - 2009.05.09 22:15:00 - [98]
 

Originally by: Foolish Bob
I don't accept your comparison: HAC's and BC's are both anti-cruiser platforms, with an option to providing dps on other targets. A cruiser is not an anti-frig platform - that's the role of destroyers, inties and af (and ofc frigs), so whereas HAC's and BC's operating in a similar battlespace (if we can coin that term) should be equivalent, I would argue that there's no such requirement for af's wrt cruisers.

In those terms then I think that any boost has to be made on its own merit for the role an af has - which is not to say that 5% resists on the caldari af wouldn't go amiss - indeed anything that makes them more worthwhile would be welcome. But we can't use cruisers as justification imo.


I fully understand what you're saying. It is very hard to discuss balance for AFs when there is nothing to really compare them against. In my mind the question is this: I have 100 mil isk to spend, should I spend it on 2 AFs or 4 cruisers? Take the example of a well setup and flown Rupture. You could take on any other cruiser frigate or AF and kill it. On the other hand, when you're flying an AF, you first of all can forget about taking on a decent drone boat. Then anytime you engage something, you're rolling the dice. If they start dropping ECM drones, or hit you with a neut or two, thats it. Game over.

I accept this. No ship should be unbeatable in every circumstance. Far from it. But the range of situations where an AF can be used without getting laughed at and blown to pieces is quite limited. Because of this, I want them to shine in their niche role. Vagabond, Deimos, these ships are absolutely awesome at what they do, are they overpowered? No, they're T2 ships, thats how they should be. Why are AFs not? They're ok at their job. Butwhen you pay 40+ mil isk for a frigate hull, ok isn't really enough.

ian666
Minmatar
Virtual Democracy
C0VEN
Posted - 2009.05.10 09:33:00 - [99]
 


Nomakai Delateriel
Amarr
Ammatar Free Corps
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2009.05.10 10:29:00 - [100]
 

Originally by: Wang Jing
I fully understand what you're saying. It is very hard to discuss balance for AFs when there is nothing to really compare them against. In my mind the question is this: I have 100 mil isk to spend, should I spend it on 2 AFs or 4 cruisers? Take the example of a well setup and flown Rupture. You could take on any other cruiser frigate or AF and kill it. On the other hand, when you're flying an AF, you first of all can forget about taking on a decent drone boat. Then anytime you engage something, you're rolling the dice. If they start dropping ECM drones, or hit you with a neut or two, thats it. Game over.


If you compare an AF to a cruiser ask yourself "which ships can I engage?" you'll be disappointed.
With AFs the question is more "which ships will the AF allow me to avoid".
In EVE both questions are important.

Wang Jing
Posted - 2009.05.10 11:28:00 - [101]
 

Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel
If you compare an AF to a cruiser ask yourself "which ships can I engage?" you'll be disappointed.
With AFs the question is more "which ships will the AF allow me to avoid".
In EVE both questions are important.


Well we've arrived at the reason I fly AFs almost exclusively. I have to confess to being an outlaw, and I fly along heavily contested FW pipes. In my Jag I can laugh at the blob camps (although flying my 400 plate Wolf is "exciting" at times).

But on the subject of avoiding fights, AFs work best with AB and scram in lowsec. If things start to go wrong, when fighting, for example, a mwd + disruptor fitted cruiser, chances are you are not going to escape. The things are so fragile, there are so many circumstances in which you will get obliterated by something that costs a fraction of the price. Because of this I want them to be amazing when used in the right situation. A 4th bonus will give them a nice little boost without suddenly changing the roles they are able to perform.

Foolish Bob
Caldari
The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2009.05.12 12:41:00 - [102]
 

huh. I think we're at the stage where we need to decide on what the accepted role of an af actually is. I don't do much solo work so I won't comment on that, but in a fleet setting, I use them as

a) Heavy tackle - the ability to hold onto a target without dying long enough for dps to arrive
b) Frigate superiority platform - killing frigs and destroyers at a disproportionate ratio to ship losses.

especially when paired with interceptors, I really cannot stress enough how well they perform these roles - especially if you're dealing with smartbombing battleships - as is often the case for us.

So the questions now are

1) What solo roles do they fill

2) Why are they lacking in fleet or solo roles (each ship)?

3) What bonus would you propose to solve this problem (each ship)?

From there we can have solid options to evaluate.

Wang Jing
Posted - 2009.05.12 15:49:00 - [103]
 

Originally by: Foolish Bob

a) Heavy tackle - the ability to hold onto a target without dying long enough for dps to arrive
b) Frigate superiority platform - killing frigs and destroyers at a disproportionate ratio to ship losses.

especially when paired with interceptors, I really cannot stress enough how well they perform these roles



Agreed.

Originally by: Foolish Bob

So the questions now are

1) What solo roles do they fill

2) Why are they lacking in fleet or solo roles (each ship)?

3) What bonus would you propose to solve this problem (each ship)?

From there we can have solid options to evaluate.


AFs really are small counterparts to the HACs. Each individual ship may excel in a certain role, but the class as a whole is designed to provide ships capable of performing well in many cirucmstances where high performance is needed couple with agility and speed.

Looking at the bonuses of the AFs and HACs, a lot of them are cleary designed to be used in a similar way.

Harpy -> Eagle Ranged DPS
Retribution -> Zealot Ranged DPS
Vengeneance -> Sacriledge Heavy Tanker
Ishkur-> Ishtar Drone bukkake
Enyo-> Deimos Blaster Boat

They individually have quite different characters, whilst at the same time being versatile enough to perform well in a variety of situations, for example in fleets, as you have mentioned. They also work very well in the role I use them in, which is solo or with another AF wingman, killing much larger targets. With an AB and a scram, they are able to speed/sig tank even when webbed, and take down much larger ships, whilst at the same time being fast enough with an AB to make the initial tackle, and nimble enough to evade gatecamps that would catch a cruiser or larger ship.

So my point is this: AFs are able to, and should continue to be able to, perform well in a variety of roles, whilst still having distinct characters. Therefore, as with HACs, I'm against giving the whole class the same bonus that bolsters their use in a specific role, rather they should be given their bonus on a case by case bonus, in keeping with the general character of the ship.

The problem with AFs in general is that they simply are not worth the ISK. They were initially given a 4th bonus, which was to resists, however when this was incorporated into the hull, as with other T2 ships, they did not receive a new 4th bonus.

I feel like I'm starting to repeat myself here as I have given some examples of the bonus I would like to see before, but I'll quickly summarise my thoughts here:

Harpy: Inherit the 5% bonus to resists that the Merlin gets, completeing the Merlin, Moa, Harpy, Eagle family of Caldari rail boats.

Vengeance: Bring it into line with the Sacriledge and give it a rocket ROF bonus.

Retribution: Not sure on this, a zealot style rof bonus may be overpowered... answers on the back of a postcard...

Hawk: I would suggest a ROF bonus here, like the cerb, and also a boost to fittings so its possible to fit with T2 launchers plus tank and tackle without fittting mods.

Ishkur: Probably a 5km per level drone control range bonus is suitable here, a drone damage bonus for example would make this already superb ship completely overpowered.

Enyo: How about a falloff bonus, to match the incursus. both falloff and optimal bonus, this would become a very flexible ship.

Wolf and Jaguar: 7.5% bonus to turret tracking. These two differ from others in that they're both used in similar roles i.e. with autocannons or artillery, and so I'm in favour of a bonus that is helpful in both roles. They still retain their characters with this; the Jag being the more agile shield tanker, and the Wolf slower sturdier armour tanke. While we're on the subject, its worth noting that a lot of people want the falloff/optimal bonuses to be switched.


Zostera
Minmatar
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.05.13 11:26:00 - [104]
 

Edited by: Zostera on 13/05/2009 11:26:52
Wang Jing is making some really solid points here that I think will provide a boost to the AF's of all races without destoying either game balance or ship roles.

As a Minnie pilot I agree wholeheartedly with the proposed addition of the rifters tracking bonus and a swtich in the optimal/falloff bonuses. Atm I tend to fly a Jag fitted as "tough tackle" as someone mentioned above, which is great, fun, useful... just very dissapointing when I can't orbit at speed and hit for **** due to poor tracking.

I wouldn't argue that The Jag or Wolf needs any dps boost other than the improved hit rate.

Zos

Wang Jing
Posted - 2009.05.13 14:04:00 - [105]
 

Originally by: Zostera
Edited by: Zostera on 13/05/2009 11:26:52
Wang Jing is making some really solid points here that I think will provide a boost to the AF's of all races without destoying either game balance or ship roles.

As a Minnie pilot I agree wholeheartedly with the proposed addition of the rifters tracking bonus and a swtich in the optimal/falloff bonuses. Atm I tend to fly a Jag fitted as "tough tackle" as someone mentioned above, which is great, fun, useful... just very dissapointing when I can't orbit at speed and hit for **** due to poor tracking.

I wouldn't argue that The Jag or Wolf needs any dps boost other than the improved hit rate.

Zos


Yep, my thoughts exactly. Even though they put out less dps than some of their counterparts, Minmatar ships should be able to use the flexibility of their weapon systems combined with their natural speed to compete. For example, when fighting an Enyo with a Wolf, you need to get out to 5 or 6 km where the falloff you gain with barrage ammo allows you to outdamage him. On the otherhand, a Harpy or Retribution will still cause you problems at this range, and so you should be able to get in tight and outtrack them. Unfortunately this simply does not work without a tracking bonus.

Glaceon
Posted - 2009.05.13 14:23:00 - [106]
 

Edited by: Glaceon on 13/05/2009 14:24:48
I also want to mention that since assault ships are getting a nerf to agility this coming patch, giving them a boost is all the more essential.

Wang Jing
Posted - 2009.05.13 14:35:00 - [107]
 

Originally by: Glaceon
Edited by: Glaceon on 13/05/2009 14:24:48
I also want to mention that since assault ships are getting a nerf to agility this coming patch, giving them a boost is all the more essential.


Sigh, too right. They will struggle to get past camps with a proper tackler after the patch, and that is a huge nerf.

Glaceon
Posted - 2009.05.14 00:57:00 - [108]
 

Originally by: Wang Jing
Originally by: Glaceon
Edited by: Glaceon on 13/05/2009 14:24:48
I also want to mention that since assault ships are getting a nerf to agility this coming patch, giving them a boost is all the more essential.


Sigh, too right. They will struggle to get past camps with a proper tackler after the patch, and that is a huge nerf.


Makes perfect sense though. I just finished training for assault ships yesterday so of course a sudden nerf was needed.

Wang Jing
Posted - 2009.05.17 17:22:00 - [109]
 

Originally by: Glaceon
Originally by: Wang Jing
Originally by: Glaceon
Edited by: Glaceon on 13/05/2009 14:24:48
I also want to mention that since assault ships are getting a nerf to agility this coming patch, giving them a boost is all the more essential.


Sigh, too right. They will struggle to get past camps with a proper tackler after the patch, and that is a huge nerf.


Makes perfect sense though. I just finished training for assault ships yesterday so of course a sudden nerf was needed.


Well I'm still happily flying around lowsec in assault frigs, whilst the agility decrease is noticable its still reasonably easy to get past most camps.

Foolish Bob
Caldari
The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2009.05.17 18:45:00 - [110]
 

Been away from the forums for a while. Been neglecting an important debate.

Originally by: Wang Jing

AFs really are small counterparts to the HACs. Each individual ship may excel in a certain role, but the class as a whole is designed to provide ships capable of performing well in many cirucmstances where high performance is needed couple with agility and speed.



This I can buy for sure, but I think it's important to keep in mind therefore, that as HAC's are to battlecruisers, so af must be to destroyers.

Originally by: Wang Jing

Harpy -> Eagle Ranged DPS
Retribution -> Zealot Ranged DPS
Vengeneance -> Sacriledge Heavy Tanker
Ishkur-> Ishtar Drone bukkake
Enyo-> Deimos Blaster Boat



with presumably the following to finish the list

Hawk -> Cerb Long Range Missile DPS
Jaguar -> Vagabond -> fast close range dps
Wolf -> Munin -> tanked close range dps

Originally by: Wang Jing

They individually have quite different characters, whilst at the same time being versatile enough to perform well in a variety of situations, for example in fleets, as you have mentioned. They also work very well in the role I use them in, which is solo or with another AF wingman, killing much larger targets. With an AB and a scram, they are able to speed/sig tank even when webbed, and take down much larger ships, whilst at the same time being fast enough with an AB to make the initial tackle, and nimble enough to evade gatecamps that would catch a cruiser or larger ship.



100% agreed

Originally by: Wang Jing

Harpy: Inherit the 5% bonus to resists that the Merlin gets, completeing the Merlin, Moa, Harpy, Eagle family of Caldari rail boats.

Hawk: I would suggest a ROF bonus here, like the cerb, and also a boost to fittings so its possible to fit with T2 launchers plus tank and tackle without fittting mods.



supported - caldari af are a little broken.

Originally by: Wang Jing

Vengeance: Bring it into line with the Sacriledge and give it a rocket ROF bonus.



My concern with this is that CCP are supposed to be de-nerfing rockets, and having good damage AND epic tank rather than just ok damage and epic tank makes me nervous.

Originally by: Wang Jing

Retribution: Not sure on this, a zealot style rof bonus may be overpowered... answers on the back of a postcard...



A 300dps retribution. *drools* I think that this would certainly be too much. A speed/agility boost though could hit the spot quite nicely, but then why would you fly a Jaguar?

Originally by: Wang Jing

Ishkur: Probably a 5km per level drone control range bonus is suitable here, a drone damage bonus for example would make this already superb ship completely overpowered.



This wouldn't work for me - there's no point in having a drone control range that exceeds the targetting range of the ship (though of course you could well fit sensor boosters, but it's a tough fit to get right I think)

Originally by: Wang Jing

Enyo: How about a falloff bonus, to match the incursus. both falloff and optimal bonus, this would become a very flexible ship.



I'd actually plump for a resist boost here. Most of the feedback I get is that when choosing twixt the two ships, you can have the enyo, or the enyo with drones, and who'd pick the enyo in those circumstances? In this way it becomes a distinct choice.

Originally by: Wang Jing

Wolf and Jaguar: cut so I get some chars



The point for me about not having the tracking bonus on the Wolf/Jag is to do with DPS reduction. This is also why these ships operate in falloff - having that much dps without spending a drop of cap makes for a very powerful ship indeed. I've not really logged enough time in these ships though to judge what else would fit - perhaps a 5% boost to velocity on the Jag and a rep bonus or something for the wolf. More postcards there please.

Tsubutai
The Tuskers
Posted - 2009.05.18 10:10:00 - [111]
 

.

HavocWind
Posted - 2009.05.18 12:19:00 - [112]
 

I strongly support this idea.

Icarus Starkiller
Forge Regional Security
Posted - 2009.05.18 13:10:00 - [113]
 

Originally by: Wang Jing
Wolf and Jaguar


While at it, flip the range bonuses between the two... they're completely out of whack with all of the other bonuses on each of the hulls.

Lord DevilHanzo
Gallente
Digital assassins

Posted - 2009.05.18 13:34:00 - [114]
 

Smile


Wang Jing
Posted - 2009.05.18 13:37:00 - [115]
 

Thanks for the reply Foolish! I'll try and address the contentious points.

Firstly, with regards to the HAC comparison, I deliberately excluded the minmatar ships. The Jag definitly has Vaga like characteristics, but the Vaga is built around fighting with barrage outside of web and scram range; even with small autocannons, a falloff bonus and falloff rigs, you'd need to be just outside overheated web range to be getting more dps than with artillery, with a very high risk of messing up and getting killed. But then on the otherhand, the Muinin pretty much always used with arty from what I've seen, which the Wolf isn't. Switching the falloff and optimal bonus would certainly help, but with the difference between small and medium projectiles the AFs and HACs just can't function in the same way.

So, as to the tracking bonus; the Wolf is out dps'd by every one of the "gank" style AFs (Enyo, Retribution, Harpy), and even the Ishkur, which is a tackle AF. The Jaguar fairs a little better, but only because 2 of the tackle AFs are lolrockets. The point of minmatar ships is to use their speed and flexible weapons to outfight the enemy where they are weakest. The ability to do this is a fair trade off for less dps, although it requires more thoughtful piloting. You cannot always try to sit in falloff. Do this against a blaster harpy, a retribution or an enyo who decides to load long rage ammo and you're not going to do well. Against these you need to get in up close and use superior tracking to win. Without a tracking bonus, some of these fights are unwinnable. Problems are also caused in situtaions where the enemies tracking is borderline enough to hit you, for example an autorupture. You need to be as close as possible, going as fast as possible; having to slow down so your guns can hit is just silly.


Rocket ships: Yes it does look like rockets will be getting balanced. This is great. If CCP are sensible (we can only hope) they'll also look at rocket using ships at the same time. Perfect solution: balance rockets so that rocket using AFs will be doing around maybe 150 dps with a second damage bonus, plus the explosion velocities and radius sorted out so they can actually hit frigate sized targets ok. Given that they are both "tackle" syle AFs, and can hit out to 6km+, this seems reasonable to me, although I'm not a big rocket user so am happy to be told i'm wrong here.

Retribution: 300 dps sounds silly, but then a coercer with 3 heatsinks gets well over 300. I hear a lot of talk about lasers being overpowered, and I can see why when I look at the numbers here. Being able to do a lot of dps but with significantly worse tracking (and no tackle Very Happy) is a fair trade, given the lack of speed and agility of a Ret, but yeah I'm still unsure here but I don't think I would have a problem with a 300 dps retribution if it was unable to hit a Jag or whatever in a tight orbit (and I was able to hit it Razz).

Iskur and Enyo: There is definitly not enough to distinguish these at the moment. Dare I say it, the Ishkur overpowered. It really shouldn't be doing the same DPS as a Wolf. I would think maybe 200 dps (down from 220+ atm)would be appropriate. As the Ishkur is the "tackle" AF, I would have thought it should be getting the tanking bonus. A resist bonus could suit if the DPS was gimped a bit. Or of course the armour rep bonus that CCP loves for Gallente ships.

That leaves us with some kind of gank bonus for the Enyo. Just a thought, but how about a reduction to both MWD and AB cap use, similar to other blaster boats but also helping out with the AB scram fit. I really am struggling with the Enyo Neutral .

Boomninja
Gypsy Corsairs
BROTHERS GRIM.
Posted - 2009.05.19 05:52:00 - [116]
 

<3

Rhakriel Mesolian
Tribal Liberation Force

Posted - 2009.05.19 10:08:00 - [117]
 

AFs being the first t2 ship i ever trained up for, i am still disappointed in their effectiveness after about 2 years of experimenting with setups and tactics. even now that i've had plenty of time to train up the supplemental skills to help out this is the case. i agree on many suggestions brought up here, specifically tracking bonus addition to jag/wolf. also, the idea of a more clearly defined role for each AF with regards to bonuses would be helpful, as has been brought up by previous postings.

thanks for bringing this up in a thread. this isn't a section of the forums i spend much time in, but i'm glad i did today.

Arbiter Reborn
Posted - 2009.05.19 10:12:00 - [118]
 

sighned

Foolish Bob
Caldari
The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2009.05.20 11:16:00 - [119]
 

I'm not sure about the enyo either - and I'd even say that 180 should be the max dps for the ishkur, but I'm more or less sold on the other things, so

supported

Opertone
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.

Posted - 2009.05.20 11:48:00 - [120]
 

Yes, the assault frigates need 4th bonus

Wolf and Jaguar are very best of them, Ishkur is oustanding.

Harpy and Hawk, quite unreasonable to fly with long range setup. Retribution and vengeance - very nice ships for running plexes, but not much more.


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