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blankseplocked [ISSUE] Give Assault Frigates a 4th Bonus
 
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Carmine Cerise
Posted - 2009.04.27 16:40:00 - [61]
 


Vuoto
Posted - 2009.04.27 19:26:00 - [62]
 

the use of drones could be the best way to pump a sad class as AF is, perfectly!

Galison
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2009.04.28 14:54:00 - [63]
 

Edited by: Galison on 28/04/2009 14:55:09
Vuoto I don't understand your comment about drones are you saying they need to be on all AFs? If so wouldn't the Enyo and more importantly Ishkur consider that a nerf on them since its a drone frigate? My idea would be maybe a limited dmg bonus for using t2 ammo or possibly a reduction in the penalty some t2 ammo has. Like at the momment my ishkur with t2 150s which isnt important does 740m/s with a normal AB load javelin S (20% speed penalty per gun loaded with it) into all 3 guns and it goes down to mid 300s say give AF no speed penalty or lower it to in an AF 5% or 10% or a reduction in the tracking penalty these kinds of changes could help all the AF's and I don't just mean the higher dmg t2 ammo in the case of say spike S which has a massive range bonus have AFs increase that as well or add say an af speed bonus. Would make AF more attractive and useful as well as make t2 ammo more enjoyable to use in them.

Galison

PS I use the Ishkur as an example as I can only fly the Gal AFs and use T2 hybrids so I haven't looked at the t2 ammo of projectiles or missles but I'd guess their bonus and penaltys are about the same in general.

Wang Jing
Posted - 2009.04.28 17:09:00 - [64]
 

Originally by: Galison
Edited by: Galison on 28/04/2009 14:55:09
Vuoto I don't understand your comment about drones are you saying they need to be on all AFs? If so wouldn't the Enyo and more importantly Ishkur consider that a nerf on them since its a drone frigate? My idea would be maybe a limited dmg bonus for using t2 ammo or possibly a reduction in the penalty some t2 ammo has. Like at the momment my ishkur with t2 150s which isnt important does 740m/s with a normal AB load javelin S (20% speed penalty per gun loaded with it) into all 3 guns and it goes down to mid 300s say give AF no speed penalty or lower it to in an AF 5% or 10% or a reduction in the tracking penalty these kinds of changes could help all the AF's and I don't just mean the higher dmg t2 ammo in the case of say spike S which has a massive range bonus have AFs increase that as well or add say an af speed bonus. Would make AF more attractive and useful as well as make t2 ammo more enjoyable to use in them.

Galison

PS I use the Ishkur as an example as I can only fly the Gal AFs and use T2 hybrids so I haven't looked at the t2 ammo of projectiles or missles but I'd guess their bonus and penaltys are about the same in general.




Judging from the big balance thread in the Game Development forum, T2 ammo, and T2 damage ammo in particular, is going to get looked at/boosted, so I don't think any bonus related to them is really going to happen.

Kralin Ignatov
Gallente
Macabre Votum
Posted - 2009.04.29 01:36:00 - [65]
 

/signed

Thalene
Posted - 2009.04.29 03:21:00 - [66]
 

/Support

Ven Elak
Posted - 2009.04.29 03:38:00 - [67]
 

Supported.

CrestoftheStars
Caldari
Recreation Of The World

Posted - 2009.04.29 03:41:00 - [68]
 

support.
although would like too see a class bonus of 25% speed increase in AB used on af's

Thresh Avery
Best Path Inc.
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2009.04.29 04:40:00 - [69]
 

Agreed! Excellent proposal.

Originally by: BlondieBC
supported.

I would like to see all assualt frigates get a 15% bonus to afterbuners, this both helps the AF and the afterburner.


This is a bad idea. I appreciate how afterburners have forever been neglected, but if you give a potential 75% bonus to afterburner speed bonus then AFs would be insanely difficult to kill. A 5% bonus maybe, but no more. Smile

Kjar Achran
Minmatar
Gung-Ho
Posted - 2009.04.29 20:12:00 - [70]
 

fully supported

Wang Jing
Posted - 2009.04.30 18:14:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: CrestoftheStars
support.
although would like too see a class bonus of 25% speed increase in AB used on af's


Not keen on this, as its a bonus that would basically be useless in 0.0 plus some people like to fly range fits with mwd.

Efrim Black
Gallente
Thanatos Industries
Posted - 2009.04.30 18:26:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: Wang Jing
Originally by: CrestoftheStars
support.
although would like too see a class bonus of 25% speed increase in AB used on af's


Not keen on this, as its a bonus that would basically be useless in 0.0 plus some people like to fly range fits with mwd.


If it affects base agility, this would be perfect for ABs and MWs.

Just a suggestion. I don't think this issue will gather enough steam to get any real action, but it's worth the shot.

Halarach
Amarr
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2009.05.01 16:35:00 - [73]
 

Supported, and please give 2 mid slots to the Retri.

Cre'nor
Posted - 2009.05.01 20:41:00 - [74]
 

/signed

Hexor V
Galactic Terran Command

Posted - 2009.05.02 05:35:00 - [75]
 

Anything to make them more than a waste of 20-30m, thumbs up.

Zostera
Minmatar
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.05.03 11:40:00 - [76]
 

Supported.

Simokon
Smegnet Incorporated
En Garde
Posted - 2009.05.03 13:27:00 - [77]
 


Shadow Devourer
Posted - 2009.05.04 11:12:00 - [78]
 

YES

Kiri Serrensun
Posted - 2009.05.04 21:38:00 - [79]
 

A boost for all of them would be nice--especially the Vengeance.

Wang Jing
Posted - 2009.05.04 22:40:00 - [80]
 

Originally by: Kiri Serrensun
A boost for all of them would be nice--especially the Vengeance.


So very true.

Out of interest, aside from the massive failure that is rockets, do you think that there are any other issues with the Veng, for example, lack of grid/cpu? I only ask because it seems that rockets are high up on the big CCP list of "stuff we really need to fix". If they were to get a boost and bring the Veng/Hawk dps up to a reasonable standard with the existing damage bonus, what would you guys suggest for the 4th bonus for the Vengeance?

Octavio Santillian
Einherjar Rising
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2009.05.05 00:10:00 - [81]
 

Edited by: Octavio Santillian on 05/05/2009 00:10:24
I dislike the inconsistency of thier not having a 4th bonus, and they are not so powerful that 4th bonus would throw the cosmic balance all catawampus. Seriously, it’s not like the space lanes are being overrun with AFs, or would be with a 4th bonus.

I know that that their resists are considered the 4th bonus (technically they once were listed as a bonus), but most T2 ships have enhanced resistances that are not granted via a bonus. This only makes sense for an assault class ship.

PS…swap the Wolf and Jaguar range bonuses for god sakes.

killerbitsch
Posted - 2009.05.05 09:30:00 - [82]
 

/signed

Vera Demo
ElitistOps
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.05.06 01:01:00 - [83]
 

I am very much in support of this. It would be great if I did not have to switch out to a punisher from my retribution the second a fleet op is called.

Wang Jing
Posted - 2009.05.06 16:09:00 - [84]
 

Edited by: Wang Jing on 06/05/2009 16:17:00
Cases where the missing 2nd bonus from the T1 ship is ideal for the Assault Frigate:

Harpy: Adding the 5% resists per level bonus from the Merlin here is just so face meltingly obvious. This would then bring it into line with the Eagle, giving us a pair of powerful Ishukone gunships.

Retribution: The Punisher's resists bonus would help this ship become a smaller version of the Absolution, another Carthum Conglomerate ship. On the subject of face-meltingly obvious, sort out this ships midslots so Amarr AF pilots have somthing to fly that isn't crippled by rockets.

Jaguar and Wolf: A Rifter without its tracking bonus would be a very sad sight indeed, yet thats what these two have become. Minmatar interceptors inherit the tracking bonus from their T1 counterpart, yet the Assault Frigates miss out on one of the most important aspects of the Rifter. AF's should not have trouble hitting when in a tight orbit; fights against other frigate hulls often end up as close-range knife fight, in which case these ships are unable to bring their firepower to bear. Additionally, when fighting larger ship classes they rely on their speed and size to outtrack their opponents in a tight orbit. Slowing down so you can actually hit doesn't often end well Rolling Eyes


For anyone at CCP reading this, I hope you can see that there isn't a whole lot of work to be done when fully half of the ships in this class can be given a cut and paste job from the T1 hulls.

Furthermore, using Heavy Assault Ships bonuses as a template for how i believe Assault Ships (Assault Frigates) should be, it is the rule rather than the exception that the T2 ship does not have the 2 bonuses from its T1 sibling. It is true for all these ships:

Eagle
Cerberus
Ishtar
Deimos
Vagabond
Muninn
Zealot

That makes all but one, the Sacriledge, which has 1 bonus changed to match its different weapon systems.

Moving up in size, when it comes to command ships, there is only one which doesn't receive the 2 bonuses from its T1 counterpart, the Nighthawk. As with the Sacriledge, this is a case of one bonuse being different to go with its use of missiles rather than hybrid turrets.

It isn't sensible to take this argument any further up in size as the T2 BS are generally not regarded as PvP ships. However I hope this makes a good case for giving Assault Frigates their missing bonus from the T1 hull wherever sensible, keeping them in line with the other T2 ships.

Nicoli Malthus
Caldari
Tangential Endeavors
Posted - 2009.05.06 16:27:00 - [85]
 


Brengholl
Posted - 2009.05.08 02:16:00 - [86]
 

AFs need their fourth bonus
they're 40mil ships that can barely kill a destroyer
sure they work in gangs... but anything works if you outnumber your opponent enough
the weber nerf helped AFs bit, but the missing bonus would be just enough to balance the cost effectivnes out

Ranamar
Caldari
Posted - 2009.05.08 04:52:00 - [87]
 

As someone who's considering acquiring AFs, I fully support this motion, especially because I want to be able to fly a Hawk.

Foolish Bob
Caldari
The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2009.05.08 09:14:00 - [88]
 

Originally by: Vera Demo
I am very much in support of this. It would be great if I did not have to switch out to a punisher from my retribution the second a fleet op is called.


This I don't get - the retribution is explicitly a fleet ship imo and it's great at it. The ability to project solid dps to 20km and melt faces at point blank whilst at the same time eating damage - that's what the more ganky af's are for, surely!

The point about the vengence weapons is spot on - it is completely insane that the majority of fits (mine included) opt for projectile weapons as opposed to rockets, but that's an inherent problem with rockets. If they fix them, then I'm still not sure I see where the extra bonus comes from without making it overpowered. 100-120 dps (hopefully - let's see what CCP come up with though) and the ability to tank like a beast is more than enough, isn't it.

Mind you I rather like the afterburner idea.

More discussions! AF's are far from perfect, but they do now rock a little at least. The trick is to chart a course that doesn't attract the nerf bat, and I'm still not sold that 4th bonuses are the way to go. I'm willing to be convinced though, so get to it! Laughing

Wang Jing
Posted - 2009.05.08 10:07:00 - [89]
 

Edited by: Wang Jing on 08/05/2009 10:35:44
Well, the thing with a retribution is, you can fit an omen or even a prophecy to do better dps and tank better for less isk. The advantage of an AF in fleets is its speed and agility; in fleets this means it serves best as heavy tackle.

I'm not saying its totally useless, and i can see why people would still choose to fly it, but in terms of balance, an uninsurable 20+ mil isk ship should have some utility over an insurable 5 mil isk ship.

As for the second point, its pretty simple to me; all other T2 ships get 4 bonus, with the majority getting the 2 bonus from the T1 version. I understand your point about not making them a prime target for a swing of the nerbat, but they will simply be in line with all the other T2, its just a case of ensuring the bonus are balanced. Hence I've tried to provoke a bit of discussion as to what the bonuses could be Smile

Shereza
Posted - 2009.05.08 23:26:00 - [90]
 

Frankly, assault ships need to either have a fourth bonus or have one of their bonuses changed to a role bonus and then be reassigned as faction frigates with the resistance bonuses left in place, or slightly modified, as a prelude to faction ships in general being boosted.


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