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Wang Jing
Posted - 2009.04.22 18:23:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Foolish Bob
I love assault frigs, but I'm not sure that an added bonus is necessarily the way to go - I think it might be too blunt an instrument.

Take the vengence for instance - it's role isn't a dps ship - the whole reason for it being there as I see it is for you to sit there eating dps and holding point whilst your gang warps in to gank the poor fool you've got locked down - something that it does suprememly well. If you gave it a dps boost too, I'm not sure that's not overpowered.

On the other side of the coin, I'd equally say that the retribution doesn't need an extra bonus, but I'd sell my dear old gran into slavery for an extra mid and 44tf of CPU.

This thread needs to be more specific - after all wolfpacks of a few inties and af are nasty little blighters - even when your fleet is only the other side of the system. Once we have concrete improvements that won't attract the nerf bat, then we'll have something to support.


To be honest, as Efrim has said, all other T2 ships get a 4th bonus, its just ridiculous that AFs don't. However, in regards to your point, about the vengeance, yes it performs well as a heavy tackler already, but a second damage bonus would hardly make it overpowered, given that its outdamaged by a kestrel. I'm not proposing damage bonuses for all of them, in fact its only the Veng and the Hawk that I personally think need it. But for every single one of them there are useful bonuses they could be given to bring them in line with all other T2 ships without making them uber.

I did make another thread in Features and Suggestions that had some decent discussion in it:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1050315

Perhaps people can present their ideas here, however to be honest I'd be happy if CCP just consider giving them the extra bonus, let alone ones we would actually like Laughing




Wang Jing
Posted - 2009.04.22 18:28:00 - [32]
 

Edited by: Wang Jing on 22/04/2009 18:28:48
Originally by: The Monkeysphere
They do have 4 bonuses. The fourth one is hidden, that's all.

It used to be public but people kept whining about the apparently bad bonus. A lot of people are very bad at this game.


This just shows that either you're trolling (badly) or don't actually fly AFs as much as you like to think; the old bonus for resists was moved to being built into the hull (like all other T2 ships) but they never got a new 4th bonus (the one which all other T2 ships have).

Drake Draconis
Minmatar
Shadow Cadre
Shadow Confederation
Posted - 2009.04.22 21:09:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: The Monkeysphere







This is what I see every time he posts.

I Suggest everyone else does the same.

The Monkeysphere
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.04.22 21:38:00 - [34]
 


Klytemnestra Dianira
Posted - 2009.04.22 23:13:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: The Monkeysphere



QFT!

BlondieBC
Minmatar
Galactic Exploration and Missions

Posted - 2009.04.23 01:49:00 - [36]
 

supported.

I would like to see all assualt frigates get a 15% bonus to afterbuners, this both helps the AF and the afterburner.

Molock Saronen
Posted - 2009.04.23 09:38:00 - [37]
 


Jaina Proudmoar
Caldari
Light Brigade
Posted - 2009.04.23 13:08:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Wang Jing
Edited by: Wang Jing on 22/04/2009 18:28:48
Originally by: The Monkeysphere
They do have 4 bonuses. The fourth one is hidden, that's all.

It used to be public but people kept whining about the apparently bad bonus. A lot of people are very bad at this game.


This just shows that either you're trolling (badly) or don't actually fly AFs as much as you like to think; the old bonus for resists was moved to being built into the hull (like all other T2 ships) but they never got a new 4th bonus (the one which all other T2 ships have).


You have never seen the PL forums have you?

Wang Jing
Posted - 2009.04.23 13:48:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Jaina Proudmoar
Originally by: Wang Jing
Edited by: Wang Jing on 22/04/2009 18:28:48
Originally by: The Monkeysphere
They do have 4 bonuses. The fourth one is hidden, that's all.

It used to be public but people kept whining about the apparently bad bonus. A lot of people are very bad at this game.


This just shows that either you're trolling (badly) or don't actually fly AFs as much as you like to think; the old bonus for resists was moved to being built into the hull (like all other T2 ships) but they never got a new 4th bonus (the one which all other T2 ships have).


You have never seen the PL forums have you?


Nope, if its more of the same then wow, where do i sign up? Neutral

Jaina Proudmoar
Caldari
Light Brigade
Posted - 2009.04.23 15:38:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Wang Jing
Originally by: Jaina Proudmoar
Originally by: Wang Jing
Edited by: Wang Jing on 22/04/2009 18:28:48
Originally by: The Monkeysphere
They do have 4 bonuses. The fourth one is hidden, that's all.

It used to be public but people kept whining about the apparently bad bonus. A lot of people are very bad at this game.


This just shows that either you're trolling (badly) or don't actually fly AFs as much as you like to think; the old bonus for resists was moved to being built into the hull (like all other T2 ships) but they never got a new 4th bonus (the one which all other T2 ships have).


You have never seen the PL forums have you?


Nope, if its more of the same then wow, where do i sign up? Neutral


I fullheartedly recommend that you all head over to https://www.pandemic-legion.com/forums/ and apply to join The Illuminati [O****].

Drake Draconis
Minmatar
Shadow Cadre
Shadow Confederation
Posted - 2009.04.23 16:31:00 - [41]
 


Wang Jing
Posted - 2009.04.23 17:17:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: isdisco3
Edited by: isdisco3 on 22/04/2009 22:37:24
Well, I'm a glutton for punishment, so I counted the first 13 pages of this thread. I stopped there because its time to get beer, pizza, and watch hockey.

As a disclaimer, I grouped several complaints together. Complaints about "boost damps!" were included with "non-ECM ewar sucks!" and "webs are horribly nerfed." This is because I view them as part of the same problem. For the same reason, anything related to minmatar projectile turrets were included in one category, all issues relating to t2 ammo were in the same category, and all complaints about minmatar ships (which were by far the most common) are in one category. Here's all votes that I saw getting 15 or more votes in the first 13 pages.

1. minmatar projectiles (artilleries, autocannons, regardless of size - 102
2. minmatar ships (capitals, bs, recons, and so on) - 93
3. general re-balance of regions (complaints about risk / reward of highsec, lowsec, and 0.0, mostly missions) - 62
4. blasters - 61
5. t2 ammunition (typically short-range, but complaints were about it in general) - 57
6. rockets - 31
7. sov, pos, and the resulting 0.0 warfare - 27
8. non-ECM ewar (typically, boost it) - 27
9. ecm drones specifically - 20
10. types of tanking (passive vs armor vs shield vs hull) - 20
11. titans - 18
12. assault ships - 17
13. pos setup and logistics - 16

please quote this or whatever if you find it useful, i would not want the summary to get lost in the middle of page 23 (as it is now!). i tried to be fair in the summary, i'm sure some toes are being stepped on by grouping things together.



Prepare to be drowned out by those whining harder Laughing

Then again, ECM Drones have only 3 more votes and CCP have decided they'll get the first swing of the nerbat, so who knows...

Efrim Black
Gallente
Thanatos Industries
Posted - 2009.04.23 17:35:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Wang Jing

Prepare to be drowned out by those whining harder Laughing

Then again, ECM Drones have only 3 more votes and CCP have decided they'll get the first swing of the nerbat, so who knows...


Awesome. Glad to see projectiles at the top of the list.

Cpt Cosmic
Posted - 2009.04.24 10:43:00 - [44]
 

Edited by: Cpt Cosmic on 24/04/2009 10:43:06
I only can agree, waiting for this for 2 years now :> I am patient ...

Zhula Guixgrixks
Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations
Posted - 2009.04.24 13:43:00 - [45]
 

There is no general problem with AFs. They might suffer from (comming?) agility nerf, but TQ AFs are fine.

Vengance: good tackling with strong tank (for a frig). If you cannot outdamage
a Kestrel , outtank it. Problem solved.
Jaguar: one of best AFs in Eve.
Wolf: little bit tricky, but ok, especially in wolfpacks.

A general problem with T2 frigates (not only AFs) is the high price tag. For more details read:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1051722&page=24#702







Lazarann
Ideal Machine

Posted - 2009.04.24 14:10:00 - [46]
 

Yes please, it's much needed.

Wang Jing
Posted - 2009.04.24 14:16:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Zhula Guixgrixks
There is no general problem with AFs. They might suffer from (comming?) agility nerf, but TQ AFs are fine.

Vengance: good tackling with strong tank (for a frig). If you cannot outdamage
a Kestrel , outtank it. Problem solved.
Jaguar: one of best AFs in Eve.
Wolf: little bit tricky, but ok, especially in wolfpacks.

A general problem with T2 frigates (not only AFs) is the high price tag. For more details read:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1051722&page=24#702




There is no general problem, but some of them are so badly gimped that even with a price drop they'll still get laughed at. If you cant see a problem with people fitting blasters and lasers on a Vengeance instead of its bonused weapons, I dont know what to say. Plus, you've forgotten about the Hawk...

The Jag may be on of the best AF's, but that doesn't say anything as to how AF's compare to other ships, particularly other T2 ships, which is where the problem lies in my opinion.

I'd much rather see them remain at the same price and get a bit of a boost. If you want to be economical, fly a T1 cruiser.


Efrim Black
Gallente
Thanatos Industries
Posted - 2009.04.24 17:05:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Wang Jing

I'd much rather see them remain at the same price and get a bit of a boost. If you want to be economical, fly a T1 cruiser.




I disagree. While I support adding the missing 4th bonus, a price drop in Assault ships would mean me flying them exclusively. Forever. If a Jag cost me even just 10mil, as opposed to 20+ I'd never fly anything else.

The prices are absurd. Even for t2.

Drake Draconis
Minmatar
Shadow Cadre
Shadow Confederation
Posted - 2009.04.24 19:00:00 - [49]
 

Unfortunately prices can't be locked... its a player driven market.

If demand goes up... prices go up... if demand drops... they go down.

Wang Jing
Posted - 2009.04.24 19:08:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Efrim Black
Originally by: Wang Jing

I'd much rather see them remain at the same price and get a bit of a boost. If you want to be economical, fly a T1 cruiser.




I disagree. While I support adding the missing 4th bonus, a price drop in Assault ships would mean me flying them exclusively. Forever. If a Jag cost me even just 10mil, as opposed to 20+ I'd never fly anything else.

The prices are absurd. Even for t2.



Well, hope springs eternal, but I simply don't see a boost and a price drop (through changing the material requirements or whatever) happening. Given the choice between the two, I'd much much prefer the 4th bonus than a pricedrop and them not getting looked at again for years.

I'd love to be able to fly them exclusively, but really, if they were that good, how long before they got nerfed into oblivion?

Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.04.24 19:23:00 - [51]
 

Yeah assault frigs are really terrible at everything and they should be fixed, thanks.

Lt Shard
The Arrow Project
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.04.24 22:04:00 - [52]
 

cool

Keitoshi Yamada
Caldari
Sephray Industries
Serenitas Solutus
Posted - 2009.04.25 00:57:00 - [53]
 

It's very true.

Most people I see skip the AF for the HAC since it fills its role better. Sucks when an Interceptor can out-dps an Assault Frigate.

xOmGx
Gallente
A-Priori
Red Alliance
Posted - 2009.04.25 11:24:00 - [54]
 

Edited by: xOmGx on 25/04/2009 11:23:49
AF need 4th bonus indeed

And BTW every T2 ship shoud have hes OWN ROLE Bonus, so every T2 ship has his own role in gang.

Thercon Jair
Minmatar
Nex Exercitus
Raiden.
Posted - 2009.04.25 16:42:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Wang Jing
Originally by: Zhula Guixgrixks
There is no general problem with AFs. They might suffer from (comming?) agility nerf, but TQ AFs are fine.

Vengance: good tackling with strong tank (for a frig). If you cannot outdamage
a Kestrel , outtank it. Problem solved.
Jaguar: one of best AFs in Eve.
Wolf: little bit tricky, but ok, especially in wolfpacks.

A general problem with T2 frigates (not only AFs) is the high price tag. For more details read:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1051722&page=24#702




There is no general problem, but some of them are so badly gimped that even with a price drop they'll still get laughed at. If you cant see a problem with people fitting blasters and lasers on a Vengeance instead of its bonused weapons, I dont know what to say. Plus, you've forgotten about the Hawk...

The Jag may be on of the best AF's, but that doesn't say anything as to how AF's compare to other ships, particularly other T2 ships, which is where the problem lies in my opinion.

I'd much rather see them remain at the same price and get a bit of a boost. If you want to be economical, fly a T1 cruiser.




You know what the funny thing is when I hear people quote "The Jag is one of the best AFs"? Have you looked at how people fit this ship, then took a look at the bonuses? The bonus suggests Artillery as the ships weapon of choice, and, AFs are meant to speed/signature tank, yet, the "tank" most people fit is a medium shield extender and an AB/MWD and Web/point.

It's quite ridiculous that the long range minnie AF gets used as the short range heavy tackler with Autocannons (not by me though ;p )

Also, I fully endorse the adding of a fourth bonus to the Assault Frigates, although it doesn't necessarily need to be the bonuses proposed by the OP.

Eskalin
Minmatar
Evolution
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.04.25 17:11:00 - [56]
 

+1

Wang Jing
Posted - 2009.04.25 18:20:00 - [57]
 

Edited by: Wang Jing on 25/04/2009 18:21:28
I was gonna write a big post arguing about long range fitted AFs, but to be honest, I don't really care. Its great that people have success with both autos and artys, would be a shame if there was one good way to fit a ship and everything else didn't work. It would remove the ingeunity in putting together a fit noone has thought of before.

What I'm really trying to say is that I hope the 4th bonus isn't one that confines the ships to being used in a certain way. For example, if only the Wolf was given a tracking bonus and not the Jag, you'd be forced to use a Wolf if you want to get up close and personal - the way I like to fly my Jag, but am finding really suffers from not having the tracking of a Rifter. Of course, a tracking bonus would also suit the Arty use as well, hence not confining ships to a particular role.

Martin Vaun
Posted - 2009.04.26 16:01:00 - [58]
 

Agree. Would also like to see slot layout/CPU/PG redone on some of them.

Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2009.04.27 06:20:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: The Monkeysphere
They do have 4 bonuses. The fourth one is hidden, that's all.

It used to be public but people kept whining about the apparently bad bonus. A lot of people are very bad at this game.


They did a similar thing with the Apoc but they still replaced the "old" bonus that was now built in with a real bonus.

CCP took an important step in half recognizing the resist increases should have been native to the ship when it comes out of the oven. They need to go the rest of the way and add the fourth bonus.

Lewyrus
Argent Moon

Posted - 2009.04.27 09:24:00 - [60]
 



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