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Nicole Sheridan
Posted - 2009.04.15 16:45:00 - [1]
 

Our battleships are slowly becoming more obsolete becuase of the ECM capability ships. In a small gang fight, a battleship has no chance in winning a battle against a team that is ECM capable. ECM does not really have a true counter balance. Especially since ECCM does not work well.

IMHO, weakening the battleship (not give it ability to defend against ECM) is tampering with the fundmental core of EVE mechanic for the entire universe, If you don't see what I am talking about, I recommend that you take a look at why the Dev team are nerfing ECM.

Ruze Ahkor'Murkon
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
Posted - 2009.04.15 16:52:00 - [2]
 

Originally by: Nicole Sheridan
Our battleships are slowly becoming more obsolete becuase of the ECM capability ships. In a small gang fight, a battleship has no chance in winning a battle against a team that is ECM capable. ECM does not really have a true counter balance. Especially since ECCM does not work well.

IMHO, weakening the battleship (not give it ability to defend against ECM) is tampering with the fundmental core of EVE mechanic for the entire universe, If you don't see what I am talking about, I recommend that you take a look at why the Dev team are nerfing ECM.


You continue to hype the 'fundamental core of EvE' in another post. I continue to point out, that this is only your opinion of what that core is.

Now on to the topic at hand. Is it wrong to make battleships susceptible to smaller ships? I would say that a 'small gang' of BS's all spec'd for DPS, going up against a small gang of ships fit for a wide variety of roles and task, should lose.

That's right. I fully support the ideal that a diverse group should be more powerful than a single-mindset group. DPS is the major compontent of battle, but not the only one. Thus, EvE submits to strategy and tactics (at least in small scale combat).

Does this mean that BS's shouldn't remain the king of DPS for roving gangs? By no means. But the fact that they ARE susceptible to smaller craft, ECM and now stealth bombers, means that while they are powerful, they aren't the only ship your gang should have.

Again: ECM and EWAR pushes diversity on the one-track-mind. If you bring only damage battleships to a fight and your enemy diversifies, you should burn the flaming, crashing death you deserve. Even the backstory agrees with this. Just look at the Amarr versus the Jove.


Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2009.04.15 17:03:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Nicole Sheridan
Our battleships are slowly becoming more obsolete becuase of the ECM capability ships. In a small gang fight, a battleship has no chance in winning a battle against a team that is ECM capable. ECM does not really have a true counter balance. Especially since ECCM does not work well.

IMHO, weakening the battleship (not give it ability to defend against ECM) is tampering with the fundmental core of EVE mechanic for the entire universe, If you don't see what I am talking about, I recommend that you take a look at why the Dev team are nerfing ECM.



1-track minds don't belong into EVE.


if you don't find a use for Ewar and whatnot, then you suck at PvP.

Faife
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2009.04.15 17:17:00 - [4]
 

i solo carriers in a rook.

Megan Maynard
Minmatar
Navigators of the Abyss
Posted - 2009.04.15 17:19:00 - [5]
 

Two ECCM on a tempest is pretty fun.

Reikazenzero
Minmatar
The Sylph
Care Factor
Posted - 2009.04.15 17:22:00 - [6]
 

grimpack got it in whole.Diverse balance FTW

Dr Karsun
Gallente
Coffee Lovers Brewing Club
Posted - 2009.04.15 17:23:00 - [7]
 

Well, ECM has no counter balance, true, but still, the longer I play, the more I see that ECM is beatable pretty often. Especially in bigger gangs ecm can be beatable, because you can take a lot of your own ewar and lower your enemies chances without a problem. Sensor dampening falcons that are 150k away is a nice start of balancing chances.

Or carrying eccm on your ship. My pvp bs's fly with 2x eccm when they can and it's always a nice surprise when I'm not ecmed and start to shoot at the poor ecm ship suddenly.

Sniper Wolf18
Gallente
A Pretty Pony Princess
General Tso's Alliance
Posted - 2009.04.15 17:24:00 - [8]
 

Stealth bombers with ECCM counter falcons fairly well, they have a high base sensor strength so if they are ECCMed and a falcon tries to jam it, it has to use most/all of its jammers on the stealth bombers, which are the counters to the falcon and not the main part of the fleet. So is the falcon will be either killed of rendered useless as it has used all of it's ECM on the stealth bomber, thereby being no use to the main fleet.

There are counters to ECM, whining on the forums is not one of them.


Esmenet
Gallente
Posted - 2009.04.15 17:29:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Sniper Wolf18


There are counters to ECM, whining on the forums is not one of them.




Wrong. Its very effective.


Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.04.15 17:33:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Nicole Sheridan
In a small gang fight, a battleship has no chance in winning a battle against a team that is ECM capable.
"A battleship" is not a small gang, and as such should lose against a team that uses numerous vectors of attack.
Quote:
ECM does not really have a true counter balance. Especially since ECCM does not work well.
If there's any ship where ECCM actually starts working, it's battleships. Battleships also tend to be very good at the whole spider-X:ing thing, and one of the things you can do is remote ECCM which is even more effective than the regular kind. Or you could just have a support fleet that simply nukes those ECM ships.
Quote:
IMHO, weakening the battleship (not give it ability to defend against ECM) is tampering with the fundmental core of EVE mechanic for the entire universe
Again, battleships are better than most ships against denfending against ECCM. Also, what's this "fundamental core" thing you're talking about? If anything is fundamental to EVE, it's the fact that everything has a weakness.
Quote:
If you don't see what I am talking about, I recommend that you take a look at why the Dev team are nerfing ECM.
…or you could just tell us your interpretation rather than give us some irrelevant allusions (which rather make it seem like you have no argument and hope that no-one will call you on it).

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.04.15 17:41:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Esmenet
Originally by: Sniper Wolf18


There are counters to ECM, whining on the forums is not one of them.




Wrong. Its very effective.




Apparently so.

Nicole Sheridan
Posted - 2009.04.15 19:51:00 - [12]
 

If I am wrong, then why CCP is nerfing ECM ships?

-Becuase ECM ships are unbalancing the core foundation of EVE.

Ruze Ahkor'Murkon
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
Posted - 2009.04.15 19:53:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Ruze Ahkor''Murkon on 15/04/2009 19:54:44
Originally by: Nicole Sheridan
If I am wrong, then why CCP is nerfing ECM ships?

-Becuase ECM ships are unbalancing the core foundation of EVE.


Your arguments wrong. Sometimes modules become too powerful. They have to be balanced. But that doesn't mean they are unnecessary.

The line, though, is that their recent changes to ECM were all that's needed to put the perfectly reasonable and acceptable style of warfare back on the right page.

Note: I take it back. Your arguments not 'wrong', I just disagree with it. And I feel that CCP's recent changes support my feelings and my argument far more than it supports yours.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.04.15 19:54:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 15/04/2009 19:53:46
Originally by: Nicole Sheridan
If I am wrong, then why CCP is nerfing ECM ships?

-Becuase ECM ships are unbalancing the core foundation of EVE.
Yes, but it is not the thing you think is a core foundation.

Azirapheal
Amarr
Ministry of War
Posted - 2009.04.15 20:04:00 - [15]
 

as a general rule of thumb, if something becomes used by so many people its practically mandatory, it gets nerfed so it is no longer mandatory.

see my sig for pretty much the be all and end all of the argument,.

Sebea
Sniggerdly
Posted - 2009.04.15 20:32:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Nicole Sheridan
I am wrong


You could have shortened it all to this and we'd have understood

Slapchop Gonnalovemynuts
Posted - 2009.04.15 20:39:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Azirapheal
as a general rule of thumb, if something becomes used by so many people its practically mandatory, it gets nerfed so it is no longer mandatory.


This right here...

There was a time everyone was fitting WCS to their battleships, NERFED. Once upon a time everyone was fitting Damps to their ships, NERFED. Then everyone was using nanoships, NERFED, then NERFED again. Now everyone has to have a falcon or 2 in their fleet...

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.04.15 20:47:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Sebea
Originally by: Nicole Sheridan
I am wrong
You could have shortened it all to this and we'd have understood
Weeeell… technically, we would only have known it — without the OP's excellent description of the underlying causes, we wouldn't have understood why it was true.

Nicole Sheridan
Posted - 2009.04.15 20:49:00 - [19]
 

CCP is nerfing your ECM. The debate is over. Congrat to CCP...

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.04.15 20:53:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Nicole Sheridan
CCP is nerfing your ECM. The debate is over. Congrat to CCP...
What debate? You're making a statement (which, btw, is wrong on two accounts: it has nothing to do with battleships, and ECM is actually being buffed).

We're simply explaining why your assertions are wrong…

Faife
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2009.04.15 20:56:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Nicole Sheridan
CCP is nerfing your ECM. The debate is over. Congrat to CCP...


fun fact, you will still suck.

SpaceSquirrels
Caldari
Posted - 2009.04.16 01:07:00 - [22]
 

Well if people werent so damned linear in thinking. Most people just spec a ship for dps/tank and all mids go to scram, web, and what mwd or sensor booster. Thus all the people with no "outside the box" thinking get mad at ECM because it renders their uber gank boat useless. Think outside the box.

Another Forum'Alt
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2009.04.16 01:17:00 - [23]
 

BECAUSE OF FALCON.

Anyway, ECM is getting nerfed now Very Happy

Drunk Driver
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2009.04.16 01:30:00 - [24]
 



FALCONS CAUSE WORLD HUNGER!


Sabrage
Posted - 2009.04.16 01:34:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Nicole Sheridan
CCP is nerfing your ECM. The debate is over. Congrat to CCP...
Inferiority complex spotted.

Salmeria
Tovarsky Pharmaceuticals
Posted - 2009.04.16 01:36:00 - [26]
 

i have this ground breaking revelation!

ECM + battleships = pwn

The Riddik
Posted - 2009.04.16 02:16:00 - [27]
 

ONE WORD:


ECCM

noobs

GateScout
Posted - 2009.04.16 03:02:00 - [28]
 

My falcon/scorp/kitsune is a solo OWN-mobile. ECM is all powerful. Quit now and give me your stuffs!

Rolling Eyes

5pinDizzy
Amarr
Pillow Fighters Inc
Posted - 2009.04.16 03:17:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: 5pinDizzy on 16/04/2009 03:24:28

Originally by: Ruze Ahkor'Murkon
Originally by: Nicole Sheridan
Our battleships are slowly becoming more obsolete becuase of the ECM capability ships. In a small gang fight, a battleship has no chance in winning a battle against a team that is ECM capable. ECM does not really have a true counter balance. Especially since ECCM does not work well.

IMHO, weakening the battleship (not give it ability to defend against ECM) is tampering with the fundmental core of EVE mechanic for the entire universe, If you don't see what I am talking about, I recommend that you take a look at why the Dev team are nerfing ECM.


You continue to hype the 'fundamental core of EvE' in another post. I continue to point out, that this is only your opinion of what that core is.

Now on to the topic at hand. Is it wrong to make battleships susceptible to smaller ships? I would say that a 'small gang' of BS's all spec'd for DPS, going up against a small gang of ships fit for a wide variety of roles and task, should lose.



Or just take a gang of ships that all fit ecm, and **** every similar sized wide variety gang you come across, including any dps battleships. Razz

I think the trick to balance is to make eccm actually have a point outside being jammed.

Everyone fits sensor boosters and screws up dampener ships because they're a great help whether you ever get dampened or not.

Everyone fits cap injectors outside being neuted to death because its an easy burst of cap stability to survive through most fights.

I think eccm needs a similar angle, not sure what exactly but something that makes eccm less of gamble and a possible waste. Because they're such a spare part of a module.

Abrazzar
Posted - 2009.04.16 03:36:00 - [30]
 

Get a Blackbird.
With 3x Remote ECCM and 3x Remote Sensor Booster and you're set.Razz


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