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Mistress Suffering
Einherjar Rising
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2009.04.08 07:00:00 - [1]
 

I assume the conceit behind killmails to be CONCORD record-keeping on ship destruction. Clearly CONCORD has already addressed the issue of 'what happens if an unregistered pirate (NPC) lays the final blow?' - the killmail is awarded to the last registered pilot (player) to fire upon the target before its death. If no such pilot is listed, then only the lossmail is generated.

Yet CONCORD's record-keeping somehow can't handle the event of a triggered self-destruct cycle on the ship while that ship is in battle. This strikes me as absurd. It should treat this in exactly the same fashion - generating a killmail to the last registered pilot (player) to have fired upon that target before its death. If no such pilot exists, then only the lossmail is generated.

This makes sense from an in-game conceit, and is trivial from a code standpoint (use the same code!)

The current no killmail generated for self-destructs is frankly, sloppy design. From a gameplay standpoint, it completely fails to take into account normal reasonable gameplay where smaller ships overwhelm larger more durable vessels. That should be exactly the sort of situation we want to _encourage_. Don't pressure people to bring more firepower, reward them for bringing less. Killed a battleship with 4 frigates? Excellent! Not, bzzt.. no killmail because there's no way you'll do enough damage to blow it up before the self-destruct goes through.

This same broken logic is even more evident when taken to the capital and super-capital level. Stupid carrier gets in too deep vs a group of sub-caps? Great, that should be a glorious takedown and corresponding killmail. Instead, you can just self-destruct away and know that the killmail will be hidden.

Super-capitals are even worse. Unless you're just doing an overwhelming gank, it is trivial for them to self-destruct before dying. Once again, the battles that are actually close and glorious are the ones the current code spits upon.

The advent of overheating makes this even worse, since you can overheat your hardeners and reppers, knowing this is only doable short-term, but you only need to last long enough for the self-destruct to finish anyways.

Killmails should be a lasting record of in-game action. If the ship dies, record it appropriately.

Please correct the current killmail logic to treat self-destruction in exactly the same way NPC kills are handled. The current approach is simply bad.

Khadrine
Posted - 2009.04.08 07:17:00 - [2]
 

I would love to add my two bits to this, however, Mistress Suffering has already said what I would, but far more eloquently. I fully support this idea.

Lucille Wu
Posted - 2009.04.08 07:27:00 - [3]
 

Mistress is right. Do it ccp. :D

Rumpelstilski
Caldari
Blood Covenant
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.04.08 08:20:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Rumpelstilski on 08/04/2009 08:20:11
/signed


Self destruct kms should be handled like pos kms. They go to the top damage dealer if there was a player piloted ship involved or to the owner of the pos (or in this case, only to the self destructed victim).

Dani Leone
Gallente
Positively Idle
Posted - 2009.04.08 09:27:00 - [5]
 

Fully agreed, the ship was lost, it took damage, lets see the results.

Lubomir Penev
Dark Nexxus
S I L E N T.
Posted - 2009.04.08 09:53:00 - [6]
 

Completely agree with the OP, also self destructing now really lacks balance, if you choose to deny others the loot you should at least be denied the insurance payout.

Also the system as it is encourage capital blobbing if you want to ensure you get the loot, which I don't think is good for the game...

Janas VonVarloria
Posted - 2009.04.08 11:47:00 - [7]
 

Ok, I am going to add a new issue I have with Killmail. Killmails are a bit biased. When you kill someone, you get the KM, we all know about the final blow, but what if someone helps you??? I think that if you are able to get a shot off on the target you are intitled to a record of damage. So, if a ship goes down and you were apart of it you should get a KM. Most Corps and Alliances use kilboards to see their members progress. Instead of running around asking who got the KM you should have your own. It would really help with the confusion and lessen the constant links given just to get the story straight. It would also help with intel problems because you have a record stating who killed who.

McReaction
Posted - 2009.04.08 13:31:00 - [8]
 

/signed

CCP! - Get to work ;D

Daedalus II
Helios Research
Posted - 2009.04.08 13:47:00 - [9]
 

I can understand that you want killmails on someone you have shot at, but the problems with killmails on a self destruct is that you can't determine that he self destructed due to the damage.

What if someone is about to self destruct his ship for the insurance and some asshat flies by in an interceptor, fires a few shots and then get destroyed by a third part. Should the interceptor get a killmail on the self destruct for the minimal damage he inflicted (which still was the most damage)?
How long after someone takes damage does a self destruct incur a kill mail? you still get it after he docks and undocks again? After DT? After a week? A month?

The problem is that the attacked ship can survive the attack and at a later time choose to self destruct by some whole other reason. Why should someone get a kill mail for that? How do you decide if it's at "a later time"?

These highly advanced and philosophical quesions is why I think the current system is the best ;)

Nnamuachs
Caldari
Kiith Paktu
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2009.04.08 13:57:00 - [10]
 

This has been brought up many times before, and there are 2 views to look at.

Firstly i'd like to say, i do not support this option. From my point of view, the self destruct is the last "**** you" the guy can give to his assaulters before going down in a fiery death. You get no mods and it deprives the attackers of their most valued item, the killmail.

If you want to look at this from a logical point of view. The self destructer is getting the final blow on his own ship, which is why he is the only one getting the mail, and tbh, he should be the only one to get the mail. Your talk of concord recording all ship destructions is moot, because that ship destruction would register as a self destruct, so why should concord give anyone else the information for that ship since it was so obviously in their book, an intentional self destruct.

Personally, for all the fights i've seen or been in, i've only ever seen one ship able to self destruct before they went down, and i podded the guy for doing it. And tbh, realistically, shouldnt concord treat npc's as players and give them the mails anyways if they're the final blow, why the distinction if you want to try and explain why things should work under the rules of canon, which can be easily refuted under those same rulesets.

As for those saying /signed

just to paraphrase CCP "Please do not post /signed, it is not constructive to the thread"

Janas VonVarloria
Posted - 2009.04.08 14:03:00 - [11]
 

Ok the way I see it is that the Kill Mail is just a record.... If the bastard SDs then show he did such. It's a cowards way out, but fine. If you shot at him before he blows his ship to oblivion you should still get a KB for credit. You may have not made the finnal blow but you did attack to presure the guy to bail. So, you should be still intitled to a KM.

Rainhailer
Gallente
Einherjar Rising
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2009.04.08 14:07:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Daedalus II
I can understand that you want killmails on someone you have shot at, but the problems with killmails on a self destruct is that you can't determine that he self destructed due to the damage.

What if someone is about to self destruct his ship for the insurance and some asshat flies by in an interceptor, fires a few shots and then get destroyed by a third part. Should the interceptor get a killmail on the self destruct for the minimal damage he inflicted (which still was the most damage)?


Yes, why not? If someone flew their ship into a belt to get destroyed by rats to get insurance and the ceptor came by there would be a killmail.
Originally by: Daedalus II

How long after someone takes damage does a self destruct incur a kill mail? you still get it after he docks and undocks again? After DT? After a week? A month?
The problem is that the attacked ship can survive the attack and at a later time choose to self destruct by some whole other reason. Why should someone get a kill mail for that? How do you decide if it's at "a later time"?



Ever hear of a session change?

Daedalus II
Helios Research
Posted - 2009.04.08 14:12:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Janas VonVarloria
Ok the way I see it is that the Kill Mail is just a record.... If the bastard SDs then show he did such. It's a cowards way out, but fine. If you shot at him before he blows his ship to oblivion you should still get a KB for credit. You may have not made the finnal blow but you did attack to presure the guy to bail. So, you should be still intitled to a KM.

So you're the knight in shining armor helping the poor ship blow up? You don't think he would avoid self destructing if he though he had an honest chance of surviving? Maybe you and your friends that blob the poor sod is the real bastards?
Just saying there are views from both sides...

Also I refer to my previous post that this isn't technically possible to implement either, even if it should be implemented, which I think it should not.

Janas VonVarloria
Posted - 2009.04.08 14:23:00 - [14]
 

Ok I see that, but I cry for no one in PVP, the choice is yours. Stand and fight or run. If you SD while ratting thats just sad and the only one to get the KM is you, but if you attack someone, yes you should get a record. I don't think SD should be a reason for the other guy not to get credit. You destructed for a reason. Live with it!

Marcus Gideon
Gallente
Federal Defense Operations
Posted - 2009.04.08 14:39:00 - [15]
 

/not signed

I have to agree with the other folks.

Regardless of why you self destructed... whether it was during combat, or to scam the insurance... you killed yourself. Unless they can pop your ship before the timer, then you delivered the final blow.

Pirates just complain because they love stroking their epeen with killmails. And they get cranky when they can't have their woo hoo email for all their "hard work".

Kill them faster! Learn to pirate, noob! Laughing

Janas VonVarloria
Posted - 2009.04.08 14:48:00 - [16]
 

Well I am a Anti-Pirate and work under CVA I only want a record

noldevin
Posted - 2009.04.08 14:53:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: noldevin on 08/04/2009 15:13:30
I have to agree and say that if a ship self destructs in the same session as being shot at, the aggressor should earn a kill mail. Not being able to loot/salvage the wreck is enough "**** you" factor. I also think insurance should not be paid to self destructers, since that would essentially be insurance fraud.

I also agree that everyone participating in an attack should be given a kill mail, its just plain stupid having to pester everyone involved until they give you a copy, especially in a large mixed fleet.

Aracna Imahovich
Posted - 2009.04.08 16:12:00 - [18]
 

/Signed!

VoiceInTheDesert
Inroads
Posted - 2009.04.08 16:22:00 - [19]
 

Also signed, but good luck. A popular sentiment is that if you can't kill the ship in under 2 min, you don't deserve the KM.

I personally disagree and would really like to see combat time increased (bigger tanks), but that's just me.

Tuttle SVC
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2009.04.08 16:58:00 - [20]
 

Yes, please.

Lt Jester
Shade.
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2009.04.08 17:11:00 - [21]
 

Signed, Motherships self destructing to keep people from getting their loot is one thing, but it should still generate a killmail

The Nova
Gallente
NibbleTek
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.04.08 17:17:00 - [22]
 

/Signed

Do this or removed insurance payouts.

Lou Cypher
Infinite Improbability Inc
Posted - 2009.04.08 17:21:00 - [23]
 

*signed .. and quit jacking the price of EvE every month Evil or Very Mad

Elisa Day
Shade.
Mercenary Coalition
Posted - 2009.04.08 17:25:00 - [24]
 

Even though this feature is requested approximately once per month and CCP has still not even commented on it, I'm still going to /sign it. You can even put a (self destructed) next to the victim's name!

Oh and get the mails in everyone's combat log who was on a kill please.

Oh and contents of ship hangars/fitted ships in ship hangars/corp hangars on killmails too please.

Oh and implants and SP loss on pod mails please.

It seems like the entire KM system needs some loving, in fact!

Fat chance of that...

Veng3ance
Multiversal Enterprise Inc.
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2009.04.08 17:28:00 - [25]
 

This seems unreasonable!!!

j/k /signed

Jiro Rans
Perkone
Posted - 2009.04.08 18:28:00 - [26]
 

Make it so!

EvilSpork
Caldari
Posted - 2009.04.08 18:34:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Lt Jester
Signed, Motherships self destructing to keep people from getting their loot is one thing, but it should still generate a killmail

this

Kel Nissa
Posted - 2009.04.08 18:47:00 - [28]
 

dont forget to add remote repair on killmails ;o)

Nyphix
Amarr
Shade.
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2009.04.08 19:10:00 - [29]
 

/Signed

Halsoy
Gallente
Resilience.
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2009.04.08 20:02:00 - [30]
 

/signed


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