open All Channels
seplocked Test Server Feedback
blankseplocked Scorp on sisi as current
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Author Topic

Kayosoni
Caldari
Destructive Influence
IT Alliance
Posted - 2009.04.07 01:29:00 - [1]
 

If you're going to give it these stats you might as well just scrap the ship and give it the shield HP and hybrid optimal range bonus it used to have. As it is right now it's completely useless. Max skills, 1 of each rig, and 3 SDAs yields 136km optimal, 53 falloff, and 10 strength, which is pretty much useless. You're going to miss 3/4 jams at least with that kind of stats. Scorp on sisi has no DPS, no tanking ability, horrible speed and agility, pretty much useless ECMs, and not to mention that people flying scorps will almost never have max skills like I have, so it's even worse.

boost it or change it.

CrestoftheStars
Caldari
Recreation Of The World
Posted - 2009.04.07 03:55:00 - [2]
 

Originally by: Kayosoni
If you're going to give it these stats you might as well just scrap the ship and give it the shield HP and hybrid optimal range bonus it used to have. As it is right now it's completely useless. Max skills, 1 of each rig, and 3 SDAs yields 136km optimal, 53 falloff, and 10 strength, which is pretty much useless. You're going to miss 3/4 jams at least with that kind of stats. Scorp on sisi has no DPS, no tanking ability, horrible speed and agility, pretty much useless ECMs, and not to mention that people flying scorps will almost never have max skills like I have, so it's even worse.

boost it or change it.


i will bet you that you would take any other bs out in a 1v1 fight (unless they are fitted for ecm counter eccm's which then should negate you totally).

tryid just for fun, and without max skills (actually not even close) i can perma jam 1-2 bs's and my dps with torps+ drones is decend enough to take out most bs's, only a matter of time (the worst thing is their drones auto agression, which is just a silly concept, why not have auto aggression guns too when your jammed etc.. stupid

Kayosoni
Caldari
Destructive Influence
IT Alliance
Posted - 2009.04.07 07:06:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: CrestoftheStars
i will bet you that you would take any other bs out in a 1v1 fight (unless they are fitted for ecm counter eccm's which then should negate you totally).

tryid just for fun, and without max skills (actually not even close) i can perma jam 1-2 bs's and my dps with torps+ drones is decend enough to take out most bs's, only a matter of time (the worst thing is their drones auto agression, which is just a silly concept, why not have auto aggression guns too when your jammed etc.. stupid


I am talking about fleet combat you idiot.


Vigaz
Posted - 2009.04.07 10:25:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Vigaz on 07/04/2009 10:26:01
Originally by: CrestoftheStars

i will bet you that you would take any other bs out in a 1v1 fight (unless they are fitted for ecm counter eccm's which then should negate you totally).

tryid just for fun, and without max skills (actually not even close) i can perma jam 1-2 bs's and my dps with torps+ drones is decend enough to take out most bs's, only a matter of time (the worst thing is their drones auto agression, which is just a silly concept, why not have auto aggression guns too when your jammed etc.. stupid


Scorpion to solo a BS? With a native sig of 480 (lol), and 93.8 scan res (lol x2), Scorpion cannot tank only with ECM. At least Scorpion has to set an adequate active tank to counter 5 heavy drones (any other BS will land its drones before the scorpion will be able to lock and ecm).
Minimum tank:4 meds-> shield booster + cap booster + 2x invu + 1xlow damage control

Then u should use another med for a disruptor.

3 meds left for ECM. (no mid/PG to fit Speed mod -> MWD or AB)

high slot 4x Siege t2
low slot 2xBCU + damage control + 1 SDA
no rigs.

MAX DPS 422 (CN Torp), Scorpion needs TP and WEB to reach this value. Drone bay:
2x SW-900 2x TP-600 1x TP-300.

So 422 DPS is enough to break a BS tank? even a BS sniper fit has 60k EHP (without armor/shield repper/booster), it will take more than 120 secs and more than 6 cycles of ECM.


It's quite clear to me that Scorpion cannot take down any BS in a 1 VS 1.

Stitcher
Caldari
Posted - 2009.04.07 11:06:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Vigaz
Scorpion to solo a BS? With a native sig of 480 (lol), and 93.8 scan res (lol x2), Scorpion cannot tank only with ECM. At least Scorpion has to set an adequate active tank to counter 5 heavy drones (any other BS will land its drones before the scorpion will be able to lock and ecm).


Ever heard of smartbombs?

CrestoftheStars
Caldari
Recreation Of The World
Posted - 2009.04.07 11:29:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Kayosoni
Originally by: CrestoftheStars
i will bet you that you would take any other bs out in a 1v1 fight (unless they are fitted for ecm counter eccm's which then should negate you totally).

tryid just for fun, and without max skills (actually not even close) i can perma jam 1-2 bs's and my dps with torps+ drones is decend enough to take out most bs's, only a matter of time (the worst thing is their drones auto agression, which is just a silly concept, why not have auto aggression guns too when your jammed etc.. stupid


I am talking about fleet combat you idiot.




and what excatly do you want 1 bs to do more then take 2 bs's out permanently? balance is the issue here. and the balance seems to be in place with the new changes, forcing you to use some of those meds for a bit of tank too.
and the scorp was able to perma jam 4+ bs's before, which is just silly and way overpowered.

Lindsay Logan
Posted - 2009.04.07 11:46:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Lindsay Logan on 07/04/2009 11:47:56
Post it in the dedicated thread, so it might get read by someone that may actually do something about it.

The fact that the Scorp is a dedicated ECM BS, it should be able to "perma" jam stuff. Maby not 4 ships, but at least 2.

Vulture mmkay
Posted - 2009.04.07 12:22:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Lindsay Logan
Edited by: Lindsay Logan on 07/04/2009 11:47:56
Post it in the dedicated thread, so it might get read by someone that may actually do something about it.

The fact that the Scorp is a dedicated ECM BS, it should be able to "perma" jam stuff. Maby not 4 ships, but at least 2.


no ship should be able to perma jam at all its a i win button which CCP try not to have

Cletus Graeme
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.04.07 12:30:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Cletus Graeme on 07/04/2009 13:44:24

CCP just gave back the Scorp it's original 20% optimal per level ECM range bonus on Sisi. When it was initially put on the test server it had a 15% optimal and 15% falloff bonus per level. I can't it's range or jam strength increasing any further unless the testing shows this to be necessary.

The current (TQ) Scorp has 194+41=235 optimal+falloff with max skills, 3 SDAs and 1 rig of each type. The current Sissi Scorp has 136+53=189. CCP wants the ship to operate more in falloff but the current changes nerf it's long range ability too much. Giving it an extra 10% falloff per level bonus would achieve this whilst still allowing the ship to operate effectively over 200km making it viable in fleet engagements.

I'd love to see the Scorp also useful in close range but I don't think it should lose it's long range ability. I don't agree with CCP that doing both makes the ship overpowered. As long as it doesn't receive any damage bonuses it will only be useful as a support ship and without any tanking bonuses it will have to use half it's midslots to fit a decent enough tank to fight close range.

It only needs a little tweaking (and a lot of testing) to be useful in both roles without making it overpowered. If you consider that the ship is currently severely underused I think it definitely needs a boost although it may get this anyway as a result of other the ECM changes - especially the Falcon nerf.





Cletus Graeme
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.04.07 12:51:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Vulture mmkay
no ship should be able to perma jam at all its a i win button which CCP try not to have



In *most* PvP situations an ECM ship will only realistically be able to devote 1/2 jammers per target. However, in small gang fights, especially those where the enemy gang composition is known, an ECM pilot can fit the appropriate racial jammers and also devote 3-6 jammers to each target.

Permajams arise becuase there is no penalty (stacking nerf) for using multiple jammers on one target. It's these situations that cause the most frustration and anger. Most pilots can accept being jammed once, twice or even thrice during a fight as they know that eventually the jammer will lose his jam and they will be able to fire again. This is a direct result of the fact that ECM is probability based and is working as intended.

The reason the Falcon is considered overpowered is that in a 5v5 fight it can effectively take two of the enemy ships completely out of the fight for upto a minute. The Scorpion has never had the jam strength or range (or cloak) to do this.

Lindsay Logan
Posted - 2009.04.07 12:59:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Vulture mmkay
Originally by: Lindsay Logan
Edited by: Lindsay Logan on 07/04/2009 11:47:56
Post it in the dedicated thread, so it might get read by someone that may actually do something about it.

The fact that the Scorp is a dedicated ECM BS, it should be able to "perma" jam stuff. Maby not 4 ships, but at least 2.


no ship should be able to perma jam at all its a i win button which CCP try not to have


It is not. You still need a gang to do the damage.

Besides, permajamming is a word that should not be used to lightly. Even the the Faclon can score a lot of consecutive jams, some will miss eventually, as it is chance based.

The range of falcons may need to be tweaked, but not the strenght.

5pinDizzy
Amarr
Pillow Fighters Inc
Posted - 2009.04.07 16:09:00 - [12]
 

What happened to the proposed siege and cruiser bonus for the Scorpion anyway?

Didnt they want to shove it into a role so people can still fit what they want?

Katarlia Simov
Minmatar
Cowboys From Hell
Posted - 2009.04.07 22:04:00 - [13]
 

I've thought for a long time that kicking ECM optimal range to the same as TDs and damps, and making them operate in fall off most of the time would solve a lot of problems, as well as making damps a realistic counter to them.

Maybe make the scorp the only ship with an optimal bonus to ECM, making them fleet usable giving them their role back.



Sera Ryskin
Posted - 2009.04.07 23:52:00 - [14]
 

/signed

The previous Scorpion proposal, while still terrible for fleet combat, at least had some solo/small-gang potential to make up for it. The current Scorpion is just pure trash.

ollobrains
5th Front enterprises
Chain of Chaos
Posted - 2009.04.07 23:56:00 - [15]
 

Yeah the changes seem to have put it into what role am i going to play

rgreat
Gallente
OEG
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.04.08 01:12:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: rgreat on 08/04/2009 01:16:31

Originally by: Cletus Graeme
The current Sissi Scorp has 136+53=189. CCP wants the ship to operate more in falloff but the current changes nerf it's long range ability too much. Giving it an extra 10% falloff per level bonus would achieve this whilst still allowing the ship to operate effectively over 200km making it viable in fleet engagements.
Fleet combat is 150-170km.
Why you want 200+? To be invincible?
By the way your Jam will work up to Optimal + 2xFalloff and even more, Which is 242km.
But you will pay with reduced chances of jam if you want extreme ranges.

Check out Minmatar 1400mm artillery of Gallenter 425mm railgun ranges, compare with your ECM and youll understand that you still got it pretty good.

Sera Ryskin
Posted - 2009.04.08 03:31:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Sera Ryskin on 08/04/2009 03:30:58
Originally by: rgreat
By the way your Jam will work up to Optimal + 2xFalloff and even more, Which is 242km.
But you will pay with reduced chances of jam if you want extreme ranges.


Only if you count a 1% jam chance as "working". Once you get into falloff, your jam chance quickly drops off to the point where you're better off bringing another sniper battleship instead.

Quote:
Check out Minmatar 1400mm artillery of Gallenter 425mm railgun ranges, compare with your ECM and youll understand that you still got it pretty good.


Now how about we instead compare the Scorpion to the good sniper battleships (Rokh, Apoc) which can hit 250km. Doesn't look so good anymore, does it?

Major Stallion
The Money Shot Inc.
Posted - 2009.04.08 05:02:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Sera Ryskin
Edited by: Sera Ryskin on 08/04/2009 03:30:58
Originally by: rgreat
By the way your Jam will work up to Optimal + 2xFalloff and even more, Which is 242km.
But you will pay with reduced chances of jam if you want extreme ranges.


Only if you count a 1% jam chance as "working". Once you get into falloff, your jam chance quickly drops off to the point where you're better off bringing another sniper battleship instead.

Quote:
Check out Minmatar 1400mm artillery of Gallenter 425mm railgun ranges, compare with your ECM and youll understand that you still got it pretty good.


Now how about we instead compare the Scorpion to the good sniper battleships (Rokh, Apoc) which can hit 250km. Doesn't look so good anymore, does it?


since when is ECM considered "sniping"? lol thats like calling the cerb a sniper....

Sera Ryskin
Posted - 2009.04.08 05:28:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Major Stallion
since when is ECM considered "sniping"? lol thats like calling the cerb a sniper....


The Scorpion is a fleet ship (according to CCP's official word on the ship's role, and how the ship is currently used), which means operating at fleet ranges of 200km or more. The current (crippled) Scorpion is only capable of doing so if you define "fleet" by the worst sniper battleships, not the best.

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2009.04.08 08:50:00 - [20]
 

And even then you're better off fitting RSD rather than ECM.

Vina
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2009.04.08 15:40:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Vina on 08/04/2009 15:40:17
Originally by: Major Stallion
since when is ECM considered "sniping"? lol thats like calling the cerb a sniper....


Cerb has longer range and twice the DPS of most fleet battleships.


 

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only