open All Channels
seplocked Out of Pod Experience
blankseplocked SecureROM: The End?
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: [1] 2 3

Author Topic

Ratchman
Posted - 2009.04.03 12:46:00 - [1]
 

Came across this story on the BBC website, and was quietly amused.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7972677.stm

EA appears to have realised that they are losing a massive amount of sales on the PC platform and have decided not to risk it with their next big money-spinner. Of course, it's phrased in a way so it doesn't look like they're backing down, but the end result is the same.

They say they haven't decided on a long-term policy yet, which is a code for "if The Sims 3 sells as much as predicted, then well will remove it". They are cagily testing the water to make sure that the lack of sales isn't just down to lack of demand.

Still, this is a step in the right direction.

By the way, I'm not anti-DRM as such, as I believe they have a right to protect their copyright. It's just that their current practice is unduly draconian.

Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2009.04.03 13:25:00 - [2]
 

Perhaps games will follow the trend of music, draconian DRM for a time, which is then removed then they realise that it is ******ed. I am anti-DRM, because I understand why it can never work, and will only ever affect the legitimate consumers.


If EA give up on online authentication, it will make Steam look even worse compared to the competition. Although...

Quote:
But developers may be making progress on solutions that obviate the need for DRM.

At this years Game Developers Conference in San Francisco, Valve - the developers behind the Half Life series - unveiled a new set of features for its Steamworks platform - saying its distribution system had "made DRM obsolete".

Steam's new "custom executable generation" technology makes copies of the games for each user, meaning players can access their games on multiple machines without install limits.

The only restriction is that users need to log onto their account to actually play.
I cannot fathom how someone can say that requiring users to authenticate every time they play 'obviates the need for DRM', when that is DRM, and DRM worse than that which EA has chosen to remove. Laughing

ebonyivory
Posted - 2009.04.03 13:40:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Crumplecorn
Perhaps games will follow the trend of music, draconian DRM for a time, which is then removed then they realise that it is ******ed. I am anti-DRM, because I understand why it can never work, and will only ever affect the legitimate consumers.


If EA give up on online authentication, it will make Steam look even worse compared to the competition. Although...

Quote:
But developers may be making progress on solutions that obviate the need for DRM.

At this years Game Developers Conference in San Francisco, Valve - the developers behind the Half Life series - unveiled a new set of features for its Steamworks platform - saying its distribution system had "made DRM obsolete".

Steam's new "custom executable generation" technology makes copies of the games for each user, meaning players can access their games on multiple machines without install limits.

The only restriction is that users need to log onto their account to actually play.
I cannot fathom how someone can say that requiring users to authenticate every time they play 'obviates the need for DRM', when that is DRM, and DRM worse than that which EA has chosen to remove. Laughing


you already log in to play

counterstrike
l4d
insert other multiplayer games here

to be honest steam is fine its not like you have to go through a 30 minute process every time you log in and you can play in offline mode....and ofc if u have the internets steam automatically starts up when your computer does anyway

Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2009.04.03 13:52:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: ebonyivory
multiplayer
Genius.

Originally by: ebonyirovy
offline mode
Why should there be any other mode in an offline game? Rolling Eyes

Jana Clant
New Dawn Corp
New Eden Research.
Posted - 2009.04.03 14:04:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Jana Clant on 03/04/2009 14:06:18
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: ebonyivory
multiplayer
Genius.

Originally by: ebonyirovy
offline mode
Why should there be any other mode in an offline game? Rolling Eyes


I don't understand why you keep picking on this. With internet being so commonly available these days, why do you blatantly refuse to log in ONCE so the game can confirm it's a valid copy? Hell, even Windows has been doing this since XP.

It's not like it forces you to subscribe to a bunch of stuff you'll never use, you just start Steam, run the game, and that's it. Then you can run Steam in offline mode as much as you want and it'll never bother you again.

Brea Lafail
Posted - 2009.04.03 14:13:00 - [6]
 

My problem is the mindset of "you don't own the game, you lease a license to use it."

If I pay $70 for a damn game, you better believe I own it.

Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2009.04.03 14:14:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Jana Clant
I don't understand why you keep picking on this. With internet being so commonly available these days, why do you blatantly refuse to log in ONCE so the game can confirm it's a valid copy? Hell, even Windows has been doing this since XP.

It's not like it forces you to subscribe to a bunch of stuff you'll never use, you just start Steam, run the game, and that's it. Then you can run Steam in offline mode as much as you want and it'll never bother you again.
DRM is fundamentally self-defeating. Why add a need for Internet access, even if it is not a major inconvenience, when it achieves nothing? Offline mode has its own issues, such as needing you be online in order to turn on offline mode (the source of many lulz). And of course the inevitable failure of the authentication server destroying all your games, assuming some screwup doesn't in the meantime. And you can be sure you'll still have all those games, since you can't sell them on, even in places where you have a legally guaranteed right to. And, what can I say, I'm just not that quick to ask permission every time I play a game I have payed for.
Especially when none of the above (except for the reselling obviously) apply to the illegal copies.

My copy of Windows doesn't do this either.

Steam just proves that in software, as in the spin at the end of that article, enough bluster allows you to hide the most ridiculous of things in plain sight.

Rawr Cristina
Caldari
Naqam
Posted - 2009.04.03 14:27:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Rawr Cristina on 03/04/2009 14:28:06
Steam is a service more than it's DRM to me. I mean it's not like any of the things EA uses lets you download your game however many times you want from anywhere in the world. Razz

I'd actually rather have a game on Steam than a physical copy these days.

Gabrialle
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2009.04.03 14:33:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Brea Lafail
My problem is the mindset of "you don't own the game, you lease a license to use it."

If I pay $70 for a damn game, you better believe I own it.


But you dont and you never have, you own a licence for personal use, thats how it has always been, the company that made the game owns the game, owns the code may or may not own the engine. They may choose to release the code and editors for public use, they may not.

You own only the harddrive you install it on, and maybe not even that.

ReaperOfSly
Gallente
Underworld Protection Agency
South Pole Dancers
Posted - 2009.04.03 15:12:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: Jana Clant
I don't understand why you keep picking on this. With internet being so commonly available these days, why do you blatantly refuse to log in ONCE so the game can confirm it's a valid copy? Hell, even Windows has been doing this since XP.

It's not like it forces you to subscribe to a bunch of stuff you'll never use, you just start Steam, run the game, and that's it. Then you can run Steam in offline mode as much as you want and it'll never bother you again.
DRM is fundamentally self-defeating. Why add a need for Internet access, even if it is not a major inconvenience, when it achieves nothing? Offline mode has its own issues, such as needing you be online in order to turn on offline mode (the source of many lulz). And of course the inevitable failure of the authentication server destroying all your games, assuming some screwup doesn't in the meantime. And you can be sure you'll still have all those games, since you can't sell them on, even in places where you have a legally guaranteed right to. And, what can I say, I'm just not that quick to ask permission every time I play a game I have payed for.
Especially when none of the above (except for the reselling obviously) apply to the illegal copies.

My copy of Windows doesn't do this either.

Steam just proves that in software, as in the spin at the end of that article, enough bluster allows you to hide the most ridiculous of things in plain sight.

If you don't have an internet connection, steam will start in offline mode. I don't know where you got the idea that you have to be online in order to go offline. And of course you need an internet connection to use Steam - how else are you going to download the game files?

Gamer4liff
Caldari
Metalworks
Majesta Empire
Posted - 2009.04.03 15:28:00 - [11]
 

Great work EA! Now maybe you can de-consolize spore and start making more good PC games.

Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2009.04.03 15:34:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Rawr Cristina
Steam is a service more than it's DRM to me. I mean it's not like any of the things EA uses lets you download your game however many times you want from anywhere in the world. Razz

I'd actually rather have a game on Steam than a physical copy these days.
Pretty sad to see that Valve can rely on people taking convenience over their rights and the quality of the product.


Originally by: Gabrialle
But you dont and you never have, you own a licence for personal use, thats how it has always been, the company that made the game owns the game, owns the code may or may not own the engine. They may choose to release the code and editors for public use, they may not.

You own only the harddrive you install it on, and maybe not even that.
I don't recall seeing a EULA stand up in court. Companies may like to believe that they still own the things they sell you, but that is no reason to allow them to make it a reality.


Originally by: ReaperOfSly
If you don't have an internet connection, steam will start in offline mode. I don't know where you got the idea that you have to be online in order to go offline. And of course you need an internet connection to use Steam - how else are you going to download the game files?
Really? You can completely disable the game-protecting aspect of Steam just by blocking its access to the Internet? That's not what I've heard. Though I admit to not having personal experience; I keep malware off my system.
As for "of course I need an Internet connection", why when I go and buy a copy of HL2 in a shop do I need an Internet connection to be able to play it? Why do I need to do what may be hours of downloading?

Xen Gin
Silurian Operations
Posted - 2009.04.03 15:36:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Gamer4liff
Great work EA! Now maybe you can de-consolize spore and start making more good PC games.


Woah, one thing at a time. EA can't do multitasking.

Blane Xero
Amarr
The Firestorm Cartel
Posted - 2009.04.03 16:11:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Jana Clant
Edited by: Jana Clant on 03/04/2009 14:06:18
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: ebonyivory
multiplayer
Genius.

Originally by: ebonyirovy
offline mode
Why should there be any other mode in an offline game? Rolling Eyes


I don't understand why you keep picking on this. With internet being so commonly available these days, why do you blatantly refuse to log in ONCE so the game can confirm it's a valid copy? Hell, even Windows has been doing this since XP.

It's not like it forces you to subscribe to a bunch of stuff you'll never use, you just start Steam, run the game, and that's it. Then you can run Steam in offline mode as much as you want and it'll never bother you again.
Steams custom generated executables (as it was called in the article) for playing accross multiple machines would require authentication every time you wanted to play it on any machine.

Blane Xero
Amarr
The Firestorm Cartel
Posted - 2009.04.03 16:16:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Xen Gin
Originally by: Gamer4liff
Great work EA! Now maybe you can de-consolize spore and start making more good PC games.


Woah, one thing at a time. EA can't do multitasking.
EA is to multitasking what Eve is to multiple core CPU's.

Super Whopper
I can Has Cheeseburger
Posted - 2009.04.03 16:47:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Gabrialle
But you dont and you never have, you own a licence for personal use, thats how it has always been, the company that made the game owns the game, owns the code may or may not own the engine. They may choose to release the code and editors for public use, they may not.


LOL FAIL

Gone'Postal
Roast and Toast Inc.
Posted - 2009.04.03 16:58:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Crumplecorn
Really? You can completely disable the game-protecting aspect of Steam just by blocking its access to the Internet? That's not what I've heard. Though I admit to not having personal experience; I keep malware off my system.
As for "of course I need an Internet connection", why when I go and buy a copy of HL2 in a shop do I need an Internet connection to be able to play it? Why do I need to do what may be hours of downloading?


You can install Half-Life 2 from the DVD if you wish, mine installs steam by default and won't play until it's been checked via steam in On-line mode at least once. Other then that, Yes you can play it offline all you wish. (Not sure if you can patch it with downloaded patches tho - never tried)

TBH Steam isn't what you make it out to be, it was hell when it was first released.. but now it's fine and does the job.

Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2009.04.03 17:04:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Gone'Postal
won't play until it's been checked via steam in On-line mode at least once

TBH Steam isn't what you make it out to be
Which is it?

Gone'Postal
Roast and Toast Inc.
Posted - 2009.04.03 18:23:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: Gone'Postal
won't play until it's been checked via steam in On-line mode at least once

TBH Steam isn't what you make it out to be
Which is it?


You make it out to be a crap bit of software, it's not however it did used to be, and I was answering your question.

But don't use it if you wish, your choice.

Kessiaan
Minmatar
Vagrants Inc
Posted - 2009.04.04 00:42:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Rawr Cristina
Edited by: Rawr Cristina on 03/04/2009 14:28:06
Steam is a service more than it's DRM to me. I mean it's not like any of the things EA uses lets you download your game however many times you want from anywhere in the world. Razz

I'd actually rather have a game on Steam than a physical copy these days.


This is why Steam works - its DRM adds value rather than removing it. Steam is better than buying the disc, since you don't need to worry about losing it, less hassle than driving down to the store too.

Sure you have to authenticate your games before you run them the first time, but you have to be online to download them in first place. I've never met anyone (except maybe some pirates who won't own up their yarriness YARRRR!!) who gives a crap about that aspect of it.

Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2009.04.04 01:27:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Crumplecorn on 04/04/2009 01:30:01
Originally by: Gone'Postal
You make it out to be a crap bit of software, it's not however it did used to be, and I was answering your question.

But don't use it if you wish, your choice.
Oh, I'm sure it adds lots of nice features. How else could it sneak DRM worse than EA use and come off looking like it is a beneficial piece of software? Laughing

As for being able to choose to use it, that's kind of the point, with more and more games there is no choice, due to the masses blindly accepting it.




Originally by: Kessiaan
This is why Steam works - its DRM adds value rather than removing it.
Bing! Wrong.
All the upsides of Steam could be done without DRM. Congratulations on not spotting that, and becoming part of the problem.

Originally by: Kessiaan
Steam is better than buying the disc, since you don't need to worry about losing it, less hassle than driving down to the store too.
Bing! Wrong again. While a physical copy is limited only by the degradation of the medium it is on (decades, if not longer), online services add a point of failure which is just as inevitable and likely to occur far sooner.
Furthermore, while the downsides of physical media, such as the possibility of their theft or destruction in an accident, are intrinsic to their nature and are physically impossible to mitigate completely, the downsides of Steam, such as requiring you to go online and the inevitable loss of your games, are in fact added intentionally by Valve. So while both physical and digital distribution have potential problems, only one of them intentionally adds these problems.
As for losing your media - arguing that you are dumb enough to lose games is an even funnier justification for giving up your rights and reducing the quality of your purchased product than your being too lazy or impatient to bother with the physical copy. Steam is better than buying the disk, in the same way that WoW is better than EVE - it's not really, but it's better suited to your *cough* 'limitations'.

Originally by: Kessiaan
Sure you have to authenticate your games before you run them the first time, but you have to be online to download them in first place. I've never met anyone (except maybe some pirates who won't own up their yarriness YARRRR!!) who gives a crap about that aspect of it.
Three strikes, you're out!
Why would you hear complaints about needing an Internet connection to play a game from people who download all their games anyway from less legitimate sources? Why would you hear any complaints about any kind of DRM on a game from those who are completely unaffected by it anyway?
I think it makes just a little more sense that these complaints would come from those who buy physical copies, those for whom Internet access has never previously been a requirement and for whom DRM does indeed pose an issue.

Asuka Smith
Gallente
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
Posted - 2009.04.04 06:39:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Asuka Smith on 04/04/2009 06:43:19
Edited by: Asuka Smith on 04/04/2009 06:40:59
Crumplecorn, you are an idiot. Steam is a great digital distribution method, and you are a bit too paranoid about "the man" being out to get you and your gaming software.

If Valve ever goes **** up I am sure they will simply remove the DRM aspect of Steam in one last patch that lets all you games play all the time regardless of anything.

Valve is a good company and has always done me right as a consumer, and I have tremendous brand loyalty to them as a result. They have NEVER screwed me or anyone I know.

I love to pirate games, I do it all the time. I can even pirate steam games it is not hard. So I am not sure what your problem is, you just seem to still be bitter that you have to play CS on Steam with a riot shield instead of 1.5 on WON or something.

EDIT: The convenience of letting any of my friends play any game I own on Steam at any time on their computer for free is a real benefit to Steam. Having all my games even after a fire ruins my computer is a REAL benefit. Steam only has benefits, no downsides. The only downside to Steam that I can possibly imagine is that it makes you go through more steps than just replacing a .exe when you pirate something.

EDIT2: Hell, they can verify my copy every five seconds as long as it does not cut my FPS, who gives a ****! If my copy is legit then why does it matter if they verify unless the process somehow impacts the performance on my machine, and if it is a pirated copy then I have disabled the verification anyways and it will never need to check.

Cpt Placeholder
Posted - 2009.04.04 09:03:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Cpt Placeholder on 04/04/2009 09:03:18
Originally by: Crumplecorn
As for being able to choose to use it, that's kind of the point, with more and more games there is no choice, due to the masses blindly accepting it.


I always thought Steam wouldn't last a few months... I can't believe so many people tolerate/like this crap.

I'll probably never buy something Steam-"powered" or any DRM stuff and I'll make sure to tell everyone where to get that game for free if they want to have it.
I'm sure my CDs will live longer and always be less of a pain in the ass than their little greedy company.

TimMc
Brutal Deliverance
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2009.04.04 10:27:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Rawr Cristina
Edited by: Rawr Cristina on 03/04/2009 14:28:06
Steam is a service more than it's DRM to me. I mean it's not like any of the things EA uses lets you download your game however many times you want from anywhere in the world. Razz

I'd actually rather have a game on Steam than a physical copy these days.


This. Steam offers enough services that I forget its DRM, plus I love being able to redownload a game anywhere and be always up to date.

Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
Posted - 2009.04.04 11:22:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Crumplecorn
Furthermore, while the downsides of physical media, such as the possibility of their theft or destruction in an accident, are intrinsic to their nature and are physically impossible to mitigate completely, the downsides of Steam, such as requiring you to go online and the inevitable loss of your games, are in fact added intentionally by Valve. So while both physical and digital distribution have potential problems, only one of them intentionally adds these problems.


It doesn't matter to me whether the drawbacks inherent to a distribution method are by design or not. In either case, I'm prepared to wager that I will continue to be able to enjoy whatever games I purchase for as long as I am likely to want.

Obviously, the DRM aspects of steam are undesirable, but the service as a whole represents, to me, the best deal going at this point in time, mostly due to the lack of competition. If someone came up with a legitimate service that offered the same deal as steam but without the DRM, I'm sure most of the people posting here would quickly switch over to it.

Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2009.04.04 15:07:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Crumplecorn on 04/04/2009 15:08:35
Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro
Obviously, the DRM aspects of steam are undesirable, but the service as a whole represents, to me, the best deal going at this point in time, mostly due to the lack of competition.
Funny that. You accept a service, unnecessary downsides and all, and no significant competition emerges. What a shock.



Originally by: Asuka Smith
Crumplecorn, you are an idiot. Steam is a great digital distribution method, and you are a bit too paranoid about "the man" being out to get you and your gaming software.

If Valve ever goes **** up I am sure they will simply remove the DRM aspect of Steam in one last patch that lets all you games play all the time regardless of anything.
Right, and I'm sure if they are ever bought out their new owners will happily give up control. And it will be a real benefit to you if they screw up your account in the mean time.

Originally by: Asuka Smith
Valve is a good company and has always done me right as a consumer, and I have tremendous brand loyalty to them as a result. They have NEVER screwed me or anyone I know.
And you call me an idiot? They intentionally cripple your games. What do people not understand about this?

Originally by: Asuka Smith
I love to pirate games, I do it all the time. I can even pirate steam games it is not hard. So I am not sure what your problem is, you just seem to still be bitter that you have to play CS on Steam with a riot shield instead of 1.5 on WON or something.
WTF has this got to do with anything? Of course you can pirate Steam games, but are you seriously arguing that the company crippling the legal version of the game is ok simply because you can ditch them and get it illegally? Way to **** the industry up, genius.
FYI, DRM like Steam is so bad that it can even have bad effects on pirate versions, temporarily.
As for what my what my problem is? Having to jump through ******ed hoops approved by the inexplicably stupid masses if I want to play a legal copy of a game.

Originally by: Asuka Smith
Steam only has benefits, no downsides.
You know that thing about "If you say it enough times it might become true"? That's a joke, it doesn't actually work.


I can only assume the continual defence of Steam I see on this forum is because EVE players are a bunch of PC gamers. It astounds me that there are people off in other areas (unsurprisingly, console areas) where people are trying to push games as a medium to the point where they can match traditional media, while there are other groups like Valve and their mindless followers who are struggling to remove even product status from games.
Gaming going mainstream has had some bad effects, but this is OTT. These days it's not just that the content that is turning to crap, but the utter apathy most gamers have to anything that happens more than 5 minutes from now is fundamentally locking the nature of the medium itself into being some transient time-killer. Well, if nothing else, it's an impressive achievement.

lofty29
Aliastra
Posted - 2009.04.04 15:27:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: lofty29 on 04/04/2009 15:28:49
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Funny that. You accept a service, unnecessary downsides and all, and no significant competition emerges. What a shock.

I challenge any company to grow the balls to take on Steam. It's the only proven online distribution method at this point.

Originally by: Crumplecorn
Right, and I'm sure if they are ever bought out their new owners will happily give up control. And it will be a real benefit to you if they screw up your account in the mean time.

Why Valve would even think about selling the best digital distribution program as of yet is beyond me. They allow developers to publish games for FREE on steam. FREE. Does that not give you an idea of how much money they are making from it? If they sold it, they truly are idiots, which they are not.

Originally by: Crumplecorn
And you call me an idiot? They intentionally cripple your games. What do people not understand about this?

No, I think it's you who doesn't understand. They don't cripple your games in any way. You're online right now, and I'd assume you have some form of broadband at this point. Almost every PC Gamer is likely to have internet at home at this time, so how exactly do they cripple games?
Releasing un-altered, fully moddable, fully accessible games isn't my idea of Crippling games. If you'd like to give a reason as to how using the internet for 5 minutes to activate your game, then being able to play it fully without restrictions, is somehow crippling, please do.

Originally by: Crumplecorn
I can only assume the continual defence of Steam I see on this forum is because EVE players are a bunch of PC gamers. It astounds me that there are people off in other areas (unsurprisingly, console areas) where people are trying to push games as a medium to the point where they can match traditional media, while there are other groups like Valve and their mindless followers who are struggling to remove even product status from games.

Removing product status? Owning a box doesn't make the difference between a license and a product.
What can you do, legally, with a boxed video game that you can't do with steam? You can play it fully, mod it as much as you desire, install it on as many computers as you wish AND it sells games cheaper than retail prices a lot of the time.
You've got X-Boxes who sell you the game, then charge ridiculous prices for any downloadable content. The games can't be modified in any way shape or form, and you can't even hope to get a new copy for no charge if you inadvertently break the disk. Steam protects you fully from that.

I think you're making the mistake of thinking that games should be pushed in the direction of Movies and Television, when they should really be an open-ended platform for creation. If it were to take a route such as that of movies, you would see any low-end games being washed out of the market before launch, and multi-billion dollar corporations would fully control the market, eliminating any chance of small fish rising in the industry.

The video games industry is going to peak in the next few years, distribution wise, as more and more people get access to the internet, and it eliminates the need for any restrictive DRM through downloadable content systems such as steam.

Either you have a warped, outsider perception of the industry, Crumplecorn, or you're an idiot.

I'm going to go with the latter...

Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2009.04.04 15:59:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: lofty29
Why Valve would even think about selling the best digital distribution program as of yet is beyond me.
Like I said, gamers that can't see more than 5 minutes ahead.

Originally by: lofty29
No, I think it's you who doesn't understand. They don't cripple your games in any way. You're online right now, and I'd assume you have some form of broadband at this point. Almost every PC Gamer is likely to have internet at home at this time, so how exactly do they cripple games?
So, they don't really restrict games to requiring the Internet, because everyone has the Internet? Epic logic.

Originally by: lofty29
Releasing un-altered, fully moddable, fully accessible games isn't my idea of Crippling games. If you'd like to give a reason as to how using the internet for 5 minutes to activate your game, then being able to play it fully without restrictions, is somehow crippling, please do.
Show me how being unable to play a game if I don't have internet access isn't.

Originally by: lofty29
What can you do, legally, with a boxed video game that you can't do with steam? You can play it fully, mod it as much as you desire, install it on as many computers as you wish AND it sells games cheaper than retail prices a lot of the time.
Play it without asking permission from someone who may not be there to give permission, or may decide not to give permission. Actually own the game. Yes, a box does make the difference between product and license. The license is purely theoretical, and I know of no case where it has actually stood up in court. What matters are the physical restrictions and actual laws.

Originally by: lofty29
You've got X-Boxes who sell you the game, then charge ridiculous prices for any downloadable content.
Steam isn't the only unfortunate thing the Internet has brought to gaming.

Originally by: lofty29
I think you're making the mistake of thinking that games should be pushed in the direction of Movies and Television, when they should really be an open-ended platform for creation. If it were to take a route such as that of movies, you would see any low-end games being washed out of the market before launch, and multi-billion dollar corporations would fully control the market, eliminating any chance of small fish rising in the industry.
Because indie games didn't exist before Steam, amirite? And because digital distribution automatically means Steam.
But fine, Steam is all upsides, and everything else is all downsides. A not at all blinkered view.

Originally by: lofty29
The video games industry is going to peak in the next few years, distribution wise, as more and more people get access to the internet, and it eliminates the need for any restrictive DRM through downloadable content systems such as steam.
Well, going back to the OP, there are signs that it may follow the pattern of music, and if we are lucky the backlash against DRM will be hard enough to either fix or destroy Steam. Though I admit, that is an unlikely possibility. Digital distribution is here to stay, DRM isn't necessarily.
Though people throwing out oxymorons like "eliminates the need for any restrictive DRM through downloadable content systems such as steam" reduce my hope for the future.

Originally by: lofty29
Either you have a warped, outsider perception of the industry, Crumplecorn, or you're an idiot.

I'm going to go with the latter...
I think it's probably the former, I see a potential in games to be something more than a way to fill time I have nothing better to do with. That perception is definitely in an ever shrinking minority.

lofty29
Aliastra
Posted - 2009.04.04 16:18:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: lofty29 on 04/04/2009 16:21:32
Wow, cruplecorn, just wow.

Originally by: Crumplecorn
Like I said, gamers that can't see more than 5 minutes ahead.

Give me an example of a, in your eyes, better digital distribution system. How would it work, what would it do differently to steam? Can't do it? Oh no you can't see more than 5 minutes ahead Crying or Very sad

Originally by: Crumplecorn
So, they don't really restrict games to requiring the Internet, because everyone has the Internet? Epic logic.

No, not everybody has the internet. You can still buy games retail, can you not? Steam is not the ultimate answer to everything, but it's damned close. The internet is currently one of the focal points of the world, and world leaders are looking into providing internet access to every person in the modern world.

Originally by: Crumplecorn
Show me how being unable to play a game if I don't have internet access isn't.

Don't have the internet? Don't use steam. Like I said, there are still retail copies available of most games. You're really making a moot point, and making yourself look like an idiot by repeating it at every statement you can't come up with a good argument against.

Originally by: Crumplecorn
Play it without asking permission from someone who may not be there to give permission, or may decide not to give permission. Actually own the game. Yes, a box does make the difference between product and license. The license is purely theoretical, and I know of no case where it has actually stood up in court. What matters are the physical restrictions and actual laws.

Court. A digital license is a contract, and so long as you haven't broken the contract, it will hold up in court.
You have to ask steams 'permission' once, to activate the game. After that, you are free to play the game without restriction. You have offline mode on steam for that reason, and the steam login servers haven't gone down for longer than a few minutes in the past 3 years.

Originally by: Crumplecorn
Because indie games didn't exist before Steam, amirite? And because digital distribution automatically means Steam.
But fine, Steam is all upsides, and everything else is all downsides. A not at all blinkered view.

Actually it's you who's the one with a blinkered view. I never said steam doesn't have downsides, but the downsides aren't crippling, as you think they are.
I never said indie games didn't exist before. You totally twisted my point there. Valve are helping the indie game market thrive, by providing an EQUAL distribution platform. Cinemas and DVD publishers aren't Equal Distribution platforms, and as such, lesser funded projects get overlooked in favor of big budget movies. Games aren't like that, and should NEVER be like that.

Originally by: Crumplecorn
Well, going back to the OP, there are signs that it may follow the pattern of music, and if we are lucky the backlash against DRM will be hard enough to either fix or destroy Steam. Though I admit, that is an unlikely possibility. Digital distribution is here to stay, DRM isn't necessarily.

So long as there is digital distribution, there will be protections against piracy.
DRM is the wrong term to use, Digital Rights Management...that has nothing to do with steam. There is a difference between restricting someone's use of software, and distributing it through a secure system.
EA's method of DRM - checks every time you launch, no more than 5 installs, no installing on other PC's and soforth is the wrong approach to take. As I said before, steam has none of these downfalls. The only 'restriction' steam has is that you need the internet to use it.

Originally by: Crumplecorn
Though people throwing out oxymorons like "eliminates the need for any restrictive DRM through downloadable content systems such as steam" reduce my hope for the future.

Again, you're being stupid. There is a difference between Restrictive DRM, which forcefully stops you from using the software how you wish, and Steam which merely provides a secure distribution platform.

Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2009.04.04 16:43:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: lofty29
Give me an example of a, in your eyes, better digital distribution system. How would it work, what would it do differently to steam? Can't do it? Oh no you can't see more than 5 minutes ahead Crying or Very sad
Steam without the DRM? Pretty obvious. And what does this have to do with being prepared for the future?

Originally by: lofty29
No, not everybody has the internet. You can still buy games retail, can you not?
Tell that to the people who bought Empires.

Originally by: lofty29
Don't have the internet? Don't use steam. Like I said, there are still retail copies available of most games.
See above. You're making yourself look like an idiot by not knowing what you are talking about.

Originally by: lofty29
Court. A digital license is a contract, and so long as you haven't broken the contract, it will hold up in court.
You have to ask steams 'permission' once, to activate the game. After that, you are free to play the game without restriction. You have offline mode on steam for that reason, and the steam login servers haven't gone down for longer than a few minutes in the past 3 years.
I'm not saying Steam doesn't do a very good job of covering up the issue. If it didn't, I wouldn't have to say anything. See also: SecuROM.
But I think you will not be so defensive if something happens to your account and you instantly lose every game permanently.

Originally by: lofty29
Actually it's you who's the one with a blinkered view. I never said steam doesn't have downsides, but the downsides aren't crippling, as you think they are.
Oh, they have the potential to be. Your inability to see it doesn't change that.

Originally by: lofty29
I never said indie games didn't exist before. You totally twisted my point there. Valve are helping the indie game market thrive, by providing an EQUAL distribution platform. Cinemas and DVD publishers aren't Equal Distribution platforms, and as such, lesser funded projects get overlooked in favor of big budget movies. Games aren't like that, and should NEVER be like that.
And never will be like that, with Steam or without. Steam may be beneficial in this area, but again it doesn't require the DRM to do it.
You aren't making much of a point here (or anywhere). Yes, Steam does lots of things very well, and has a lot of benefits. That's my point. Throw out a few benefits, and people completely miss the underlying purpose.

Originally by: lofty29
So long as there is digital distribution, there will be protections against piracy.
DRM is the wrong term to use, Digital Rights Management...that has nothing to do with steam. There is a difference between restricting someone's use of software, and distributing it through a secure system.
EA's method of DRM - checks every time you launch, no more than 5 installs, no installing on other PC's and soforth is the wrong approach to take. As I said before, steam has none of these downfalls. The only 'restriction' steam has is that you need the internet to use it.

Again, you're being stupid. There is a difference between Restrictive DRM, which forcefully stops you from using the software how you wish, and Steam which merely provides a secure distribution platform.
Would you listen yourself? The only difference is the level of restriction. Jesus, I thought the guy at the BBC who fell for this was unusually ******ed, perhaps I was wrong.


Tell you what, maybe I'm all wrong about this. I should give Steam a go. But I sure ain't going to support them. So how about you lend me a Steam game? Or if you've got one you don't want anymore, how about selling it to me? I can try this "unrestrictive DRM" out without actually directly supporting it.


Pages: [1] 2 3

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only